Our pussification continues or why some of the greatest men were assholes

[Martinus]

I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully". That's fucking retarded.

Whatever you think about his contributions to the civilization (or lack thereof) and whether you consider him a visionary or not, whether he was an asshole or not should have no bearing whatsoever on these claims. Some of the greatest people had not entirely agreeable personalities, to put it mildly, but our society seems to be moving into this insane direction, with "bullying" being treated like a crime.

Discuss.

[Ed Anger]

I'll remember your dislike of picking on bullies when the next glittertard hangs itself because he/she/it was picked on.

[Martinus]

I'll remember your dislike of picking on bullies when the next glittertard hangs itself because he/she/it was picked on.

Not really. In fact I'm annoyed by the fucking pussy faggots who call for harsh penalties for the bullies who cause gay suicides.

I am all for harsh penalties for those who perpetrate actual violence. But bullying/harassment should be penalized (if at all) on its own terms (and, unless this is essentially a "psychological torture", should be a misdemeanor at best) - and whether this pushes some weakling to a suicide or not should not enter the picture.

The guy who taped his roommate having sex with another guy and published it online should probably face some penalty for breach of privacy/unlawful recording/publishing of sexual act. But these idiots want him to be tried for murder, which is fucking retarded.

It's like an unholy alliance of self-righteous faggots and soccer moms.

[Martinus]

Anyway, since you raised the topic of gay suicides, I believe personal psychological make-up is first to blame, followed by family/church/school. Only if these are found blameless you can try to consider blaming the bullies. Noone sane, loved and accepted commits suicide because he or she is picked on at school.

[Valmy]

Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

[Martinus]

Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

Yeah probably but I find this tendency deeply worrying. It already started when for example politicians could no longer be regarded as good leaders if they had mistresses or fucked young men (which would exclude Ceasar, Alexander and most monarchs and popes). Now, they are going after jerks. Soon our civilization's halls of fame will be populated by the likes of Ellen. Yuck.

[The Minsky Moment]

I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

[MadImmortalMan]

I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10

[Josephus]

You don't get to be in a position like Jobs unless you're an asshole. It's just the way things are.

[grumbler]

Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

I don't see why anyone would argue he was a "great individual" in any case.  He was a one-trick pony; he knew how to design great interfaces for consumer products.  Nothing in that says anything about his "greatness."

The wailing over his death says everything about the wailers, and nothing about him.  The only thing that makes me sad about his death is that he now has no chance to design a product that I would actually buy.  But those odds weren't that great anyway.

Being a jerk should detract from one's image as a "great individual," of course.  No one likes being around jerks, and they add nothing to the world by virtue of their jerkness.  One can still be a jerk and a "great person," of course.  It is just harder, like it is harder to be a "great person" and an anti-semite, or a great person and a spouse-beater.  Mohandas Gandhi was a "great individual" and treated his kids like shit, but he'd have been a greater one if he hadn't beaten his kids.

[grumbler]

I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10

Got a cite that actually, you know, says what is claimed?  This one doesn't say anything about questioning Job's "greatness."  Admittedly, the last two slides are broken, but nothing in the first fifteen give any indication the last two will conclude differently.

And the one about "Steve Jobs fired the guy in charge of MobileMe in front of a crowd of Apple employees" doesn't seem to me to be an indictment at all; that's the way businesses work sometimes.

[MadImmortalMan]

It's not my claim nor my responsibility to prove it. I merely had read that story earlier in the day and decided to put it here. Fight somebody else.

[grumbler]

It's not my claim nor my responsibility to prove it. I merely had read that story earlier in the day and decided to put it here. Fight somebody else.

Okay.  I would just point out that placing it where you did, after quoting someone asking for a cite, misleads the reader into thinking you are responding to a request for a citation.  Since you weren't responding to the post you were quoting, I agree that the fact that your non-response was non-responsive is moot, and you should fight someone else.

[DGuller]

And the one about "Steve Jobs fired the guy in charge of MobileMe in front of a crowd of Apple employees" doesn't seem to me to be an indictment at all; that's the way businesses work sometimes.

You generally want to fire people in private, though.  Only utter dicks needlessly humiliate people in public, and public humiliation is right there at the top of the methods one would use to create a determined and motivated enemy for life.

[garbon]

Noone sane, loved and accepted commits suicide because he or she is picked on at school.

Even if they are consistently picked on to the point where a good part of their waking day is hellish?