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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 04:20:47 PM

Title: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
So I watched another movie recently where the central plot was the guy cheating on his wife once and then she freaking out over it for a year or so and them trying to "rebuild it" and whatnot.

So my question is: are you heteros really like that? Is this so much of a big deal if your partner cheats on you (assuming this is really a small fling or a one night stand, and there are no complications/consequences out of this, like STDs, or unwanted pregnancies and whatnot?) and is not leaving you?

For most gays I've talked to such behavior would seem abnormally hysterical - if you like to be with someone, what does it matter if they have an occasional sex on the side. So is this like another Hollywood cliche, or do you guys really freak out over cheating?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: grumbler on October 24, 2011, 04:24:40 PM
My impression is that gays are more inclined to be hysterical over cheating, based on the gays I've talked to.  My guess would be that you know as much about heteros as you do about the US.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Slargos on October 24, 2011, 04:26:21 PM
Some sort of biological/reproductional imperative, I would presume. Anything else would surprise me.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Razgovory on October 24, 2011, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 24, 2011, 04:24:40 PM
My impression is that gays are more inclined to be hysterical over cheating, based on the gays I've talked to.  My guess would be that you know as much about heteros as you do about the US.

Or gays.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 24, 2011, 04:24:40 PM
My impression is that gays are more inclined to be hysterical over cheating, based on the gays I've talked to.  My guess would be that you know as much about heteros as you do about the US.

What the hell are you talking about? I asked a question whether a behavior often found in movies is real - where the hell do I claim to "know about heteros?" Are you retarded or just drunk?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Lettow77 on October 24, 2011, 04:31:07 PM
 I realize I cannot speak for everyone, but infidelity is the only unpardonable sin in a relationship I can think of offhand. I would cast out a woman who betrayed my faith in such a way, and so would most people I know, male and female.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 24, 2011, 04:33:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
So I watched another movie recently where the central plot was the guy cheating on his wife once and then she freaking out over it for a year or so and them trying to "rebuild it" and whatnot.



Yes, I too use fiction as a fundamental basis for figuring out how the world works.
Now, stop using Hollywood to try to understand "us Breeders".

Having some personal experience in this, I didn't cheat, she did; with me  :wink: . They used her getting caught to hash out some of the real problems in their relationship; which to my knowledge will still be over when the youngest is old enough to tell mommy if daddy got drunk and hit her. What we do know (from autobiographies and divorce proceedings) is that it does happen and people don't seem to freak out about it long term. People either hash it out there and then or they move on. For gods sake, look at Bill and Hillary. People are much more practical than Hollywood gives them credit for, but then again, if the plot had been man cheats gets caught, they talk it out and resolve their issues in the first act then there wouldn't have been much of a movie. 
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I recently saw a movie as well.  It takes place a long, long time ago.  Since there are a lot of history buffs here who know about weaponry, I was wondering - is it really true that a trained guy with a laser sword can deflect bullets from a laser gun?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on October 24, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I recently saw a movie as well.  It takes place a long, long time ago.  Since there are a lot of history buffs here who know about weaponry, I was wondering - is it really true that a trained guy with a laser sword can deflect bullets from a laser gun?
As Almanzo Hiyabashi wrote in his famous Book of 7.6 Rings, "Fuckin' A you fuck that shit up."
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.

Indeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.

Indeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.
Foot, meat scrotum.  :pinch: :pinch: :pinch:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Ed Anger on October 24, 2011, 05:07:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I recently saw a movie as well.  It takes place a long, long time ago.  Since there are a lot of history buffs here who know about weaponry, I was wondering - is it really true that a trained guy with a laser sword can deflect bullets from a laser gun?

Is there tackling involved?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Ed Anger on October 24, 2011, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.

Indeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.
Foot, meat scrotum.  :pinch: :pinch: :pinch:

meat?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:51:34 PM
Foot, meat scrotum.  :pinch: :pinch: :pinch:

Don't diss it until you try it.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Caliga on October 24, 2011, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I recently saw a movie as well.  It takes place a long, long time ago.  Since there are a lot of history buffs here who know about weaponry, I was wondering - is it really true that a trained guy with a laser sword can deflect bullets from a laser gun?
Yes. :w00t:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Ed Anger on October 24, 2011, 05:40:45 PM
Quote from: Caliga on October 24, 2011, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I recently saw a movie as well.  It takes place a long, long time ago.  Since there are a lot of history buffs here who know about weaponry, I was wondering - is it really true that a trained guy with a laser sword can deflect bullets from a laser gun?
Yes. :w00t:

No. Order 66. The Jedi scum couldn't deflect massed fire. Jedi sympathizer.  :mad:

Now that is some nerdy shit.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Siege on October 24, 2011, 06:42:59 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 24, 2011, 04:31:07 PM
I realize I cannot speak for everyone, but infidelity is the only unpardonable sin in a relationship I can think of offhand. I would cast out a woman who betrayed my faith in such a way, and so would most people I know, male and female.

Word.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2011, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 06:42:59 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 24, 2011, 04:31:07 PM
I realize I cannot speak for everyone, but infidelity is the only unpardonable sin in a relationship I can think of offhand. I would cast out a woman who betrayed my faith in such a way, and so would most people I know, male and female.

Word.

I wouldn't bind myself with such silly notions. I wouldn't want to be faithful so why would I expect that of him?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Siege on October 24, 2011, 06:48:11 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 24, 2011, 04:33:57 PM
Having some personal experience in this, I didn't cheat, she did; with me  :wink:

You were fucking a woman that went back to his home and fucked another man??
Disgusting.
How many miles do you think she had?
Don't you realize she probably/likely did the same thing to you already?

Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: dps on October 24, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 24, 2011, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.

Indeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.
Foot, meat scrotum.  :pinch: :pinch: :pinch:

meat?

Spam.  Not really meat, exactly, but kinda sorta a replica.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
Funny how western men think having a chick cheat on her husband with him is some kind of achievement.

I got news for you: You just picked a whore.

Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
I got news for you: You just picked a whore.

Ain't nothing wrong with that. Presumably she'd have some skills.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Caliga on October 24, 2011, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: dps on October 24, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
Spam.  Not really meat, exactly, but kinda sorta a replica.
I prefer to think of spam as "meat, meet modernity." :)
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Neil on October 24, 2011, 07:23:24 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
Funny how western men think having a chick cheat on her husband with him is some kind of achievement.

I got news for you: You just picked a whore.
I got news for you:  It isn't the bronze age anymore.  You know that weapon you use?  It means that your belief system is wrong.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Drakken on October 24, 2011, 07:36:26 PM
I'd think even Marti would understand the animal instincts of reproduction in breeders : that men freak out about their girl cheating with another man because it instinctively opens the door to rearing children not of their genes. If she did it once, it implies that she might have done it before. Plus, a girl cheating is a girl not respecting you or your manhood.

Also, in literature men that have been cheated often describe being disgusted from having sex with their partner if she has cheated on them. One word used often is "polluted". So in these guys, there a biological reaction that makes them, at first, rebute the idea of sex with her.

Girls freak out about men cheating when they spend money and time on them, in other words, resources not spend on them or their future children. In general women are more forgiving of men having one-night stands, but that doesn't mean that all will go well if she learned that Don Draper-wannabee sleeps with his secretaries. Women love to feel their man can attract other women - as long as he doesn't cross the fence or chase around in her face.

In other words, for women emotional cheating = more bad than sexual cheating alone. For men any cheating is bad, period, unless the guy is into candaulism.

Want a good movie about how men can freak out about adultery? Watch Unfaithful by Adrian Lyne. Richard Gere is powerful in that movie, even if Chabrol's La Femme Adultère was better.

I am waiting for your seduction-community arse jokes, now.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
I agree with Dragon boy.

Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
I agree with Dragon boy.

His imputing notions to biology is funny when so much of what he says has a large psychological component.

Oh and then, of course his infantile presentation of women. :lol:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Siege on October 24, 2011, 08:23:01 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.demotivationalposters.org%2Fimage%2Fdemotivational-poster%2F0806%2Fthe-new-russian-army-demotivational-poster-1214694585.jpg&hash=05fe3e06b5f35c83c6196aea0bbb0ea15253bcc2)
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Tonitrus on October 24, 2011, 08:23:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
I agree with Dragon boy.

His imputing notions to biology is funny when so much of what he says has a large psychological component.

Oh and then, of course his infantile presentation of women. :lol:

If you think his presentation of women is infantile, then so is his presentation of men.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2011, 08:34:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 24, 2011, 08:23:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 24, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
I agree with Dragon boy.

His imputing notions to biology is funny when so much of what he says has a large psychological component.

Oh and then, of course his infantile presentation of women. :lol:

If you think his presentation of women is infantile, then so is his presentation of men.

But of course.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Jacob on October 24, 2011, 10:18:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PMIndeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.

:cheers:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Razgovory on October 24, 2011, 10:29:51 PM
Marty, if you loved anyone more then yourself, you might understand these things.  As it is, this will always remain a mystery to you.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2011, 10:44:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 24, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
So my question is: are you heteros really like that?

Well there are billions of us.  I would bet how each hetero handles infidelity depends on alot of different factors.

But movies generally are shit at portraying real relationships.  They work to make them as dramatic and entertaining as possible, not realistic as possible.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: merithyn on October 24, 2011, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 24, 2011, 07:36:26 PM
I'd think even Marti would understand the animal instincts of reproduction in breeders : that men freak out about their girl cheating with another man because it instinctively opens the door to rearing children not of their genes. If she did it once, it implies that she might have done it before. Plus, a girl cheating is a girl not respecting you or your manhood.

Also, in literature men that have been cheated often describe being disgusted from having sex with their partner if she has cheated on them. One word used often is "polluted". So in these guys, there a biological reaction that makes them, at first, rebute the idea of sex with her.

Girls freak out about men cheating when they spend money and time on them, in other words, resources not spend on them or their future children. In general women are more forgiving of men having one-night stands, but that doesn't mean that all will go well if she learned that Don Draper-wannabee sleeps with his secretaries. Women love to feel their man can attract other women - as long as he doesn't cross the fence or chase around in her face.

In other words, for women emotional cheating = more bad than sexual cheating alone. For men any cheating is bad, period, unless the guy is into candaulism.

Want a good movie about how men can freak out about adultery? Watch Unfaithful by Adrian Lyne. Richard Gere is powerful in that movie, even if Chabrol's La Femme Adultère was better.

I am waiting for your seduction-community arse jokes, now.

:mellow:

What fucking century are you living in?  :huh:

As to the question, I think that security in the relationship makes a huge difference in how one handles a cheating spouse. Of course, a happy couple doesn't normally have to deal with a third wheel, so to speak. I've told Max that if he ever cheated on me, I never wanted to know. It wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if he did, but I just don't want to know about it. I trust him enough to know that if he were ready to end our marriage, he'd tell me and cheating on me would have little to do with it.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Tonitrus on October 25, 2011, 12:50:32 AM
For me it's a matter of trust.  How can one trust a friend who then betrays that trust, much less a spouse?

And if neither party cares about sleeping around, then it should out in the open, and thus not a problem in the first place.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Josquius on October 25, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
Cinema has more straight romances than gay romances. Straight romances are so generic and boring that movie producers need to have something go awry in them, at least for a while, to sell tickets. Gay romances in movies on the other hand are still quaint and different and have their hurdles in getting started.
This says nothing about straight people freaking out over cheating more than gays in real life.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 25, 2011, 02:08:06 AM
I gotta agree with meri here. People are much more adult than Hollywood presumes and they look at the big picture. I think it is a bit cute and naïve by Martinus to think that Breeder Romances are realistic.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:20:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 24, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
There are things called "emotional bonds".  You wouldn't understand.

Indeed. When one is paying a "lover", one can't really demand exclusivity as said lover pays his bills from the generosity of many.

I suspect I have more sex on the side than he does at the moment.

Btw, thanks for personal attacks from all who did. It's nice to see we can have reasonable debate on Languish. :hug:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:26:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on October 24, 2011, 11:33:25 PM
Of course, a happy couple doesn't normally have to deal with a third wheel, so to speak.

See, that's where I think you are wrong and where the root of the problem with the freak out lies.

I don't claim to even fathom the psychology of women, but if straight men are anything like gay men, sometimes you just want to try something new on the side. And there nothing is truer than the old bon mot "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to succumb to it." On the other hand, if the temptation like this arises and the person in the relationship attempts to resist it, it just sours the relationship, causes resentment and "inexplicable" animosity (I've been there, being once in a relationship with a jealous monogamy freak). On the other hand, every time I "cheat" on my current boyfriend, I go back to him being affectionate to him even more afterwards.

I think people freak out exactly because they make the same erroneous assumption as you do - if my partner cheats on me, this means our relationship is likely unhappy. It's not true.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:33:15 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
Cinema has more straight romances than gay romances. Straight romances are so generic and boring that movie producers need to have something go awry in them, at least for a while, to sell tickets. Gay romances in movies on the other hand are still quaint and different and have their hurdles in getting started.
This says nothing about straight people freaking out over cheating more than gays in real life.

Ok. It's just that from anecdotal evidence it seems like cheating in hetero couples is a big deal. For example, in most of divorcees I know, cheating was quoted as the prime reason for the divorce (unless of course it was just a convenient excuse).
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 02:35:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:26:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on October 24, 2011, 11:33:25 PM
Of course, a happy couple doesn't normally have to deal with a third wheel, so to speak.

See, that's where I think you are wrong and where the root of the problem with the freak out lies.

I don't claim to even fathom the psychology of women, but if straight men are anything like gay men, sometimes you just want to try something new on the side. And there nothing is truer than the old bon mot "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to succumb to it." Then, if the temptation like this arises and the person in the relationship attempts to resist it, it just sours the relationship, causes resentment and "inexplicable" animosity (I've been there, being once in a relationship with a jealous monogamy freak). On the other hand, every time I "cheat" on my current boyfriend, I go back to him being affectionate to him even more afterwards.

I think people freak out exactly because they make the same erroneous assumption as you do - if my partner cheats on me, this means our relationship is likely unhappy. It's not true.

heh. An other way to look at it though, is that you show your affection and loyalty by not chasing every fucking tail you find attractive.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 25, 2011, 02:36:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 02:35:16 AM

heh. An other way to look at it though, is that you show your affection and loyalty by not chasing every fucking tail you find attractive.

if only reality were like that....

Her: Sweety, I noticed you didn't hit on the hott waitress that served us dinner, to reward you I'm gonna let you have anal sex with me.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 02:37:51 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 25, 2011, 02:36:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 02:35:16 AM

heh. An other way to look at it though, is that you show your affection and loyalty by not chasing every fucking tail you find attractive.

if only reality were like that....

Her: Sweety, I noticed you didn't hit on the hott waitress that served us dinner, to reward you I'm gonna let you have anal sex with me.

:lol: Marty is looking for the ideology behind it.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Lettow77 on October 25, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
 What about showing your affection and loyalty entails that a reward will follow?

It's a fine way to show how much you care, and that should be its own reward.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 25, 2011, 03:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 25, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
What about showing your affection and loyalty entails that a reward will follow?

It's a fine way to show how much you care, and that should be its own reward.

Loyalty is a reward in and of itself?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.old-picture.com%2Fcivil-war%2Fpictures%2FPrisoners-War-001.jpg&hash=859b72ca3e8713bf272c016b2f028023172143e8)

Lettow is off camera just to the left.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 05:03:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 02:35:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:26:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on October 24, 2011, 11:33:25 PM
Of course, a happy couple doesn't normally have to deal with a third wheel, so to speak.

See, that's where I think you are wrong and where the root of the problem with the freak out lies.

I don't claim to even fathom the psychology of women, but if straight men are anything like gay men, sometimes you just want to try something new on the side. And there nothing is truer than the old bon mot "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to succumb to it." Then, if the temptation like this arises and the person in the relationship attempts to resist it, it just sours the relationship, causes resentment and "inexplicable" animosity (I've been there, being once in a relationship with a jealous monogamy freak). On the other hand, every time I "cheat" on my current boyfriend, I go back to him being affectionate to him even more afterwards.

I think people freak out exactly because they make the same erroneous assumption as you do - if my partner cheats on me, this means our relationship is likely unhappy. It's not true.

heh. An other way to look at it though, is that you show your affection and loyalty by not chasing every fucking tail you find attractive.

It's unreasonable. It's like showing your affection and loyalty by starving yourself or refraing from peeing for days. If the object of your affection forces you to refrain from satisfying your basic biological needs, then perhaps he/she is unworthy of this affection in the first place?

See, this is where the equality of genders went in the wrong direction. It used to be that men were allowed to fuck around and only women were expected to keep faithful (for obvious reasons, associated with bastardy and feudal system). Now that this system went away, the correct response should have been to give women as much freedom as men - and not by shackling men in the same kind of bondage as women used to be forced into.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 25, 2011, 05:58:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 05:03:35 AM
See, this is where the equality of genders went in the wrong direction. It used to be that men were allowed to fuck around and only women were expected to keep faithful (for obvious reasons, associated with bastardy and feudal system). Now that this system went away, the correct response should have been to give women as much freedom as men - and not by shackling men in the same kind of bondage as women used to be forced into.

I think your chronology is a bit off. The expectation of fidelity in husbands came around long before gender equality.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 25, 2011, 06:13:57 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 25, 2011, 05:58:37 AM

I think your chronology is a bit off. The expectation of fidelity in husbands came around long before gender equality.

I blame Victoria and Albert.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 25, 2011, 07:06:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
Cinema has more straight romances than gay romances. Straight romances are so generic and boring that movie producers need to have something go awry in them, at least for a while, to sell tickets. Gay romances in movies on the other hand are still quaint and different and have their hurdles in getting started.
This says nothing about straight people freaking out over cheating more than gays in real life.

???
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 25, 2011, 07:07:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:20:39 AM
I suspect I have more sex on the side than he does at the moment.

Who said anything about sex? Since when did you start having that?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 07:08:19 AM
There are evolutionary reasons for straight men and women to frown on cheating partners. There are no such reasons for gay men to feel the same.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 25, 2011, 07:09:02 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 25, 2011, 05:58:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 05:03:35 AM
See, this is where the equality of genders went in the wrong direction. It used to be that men were allowed to fuck around and only women were expected to keep faithful (for obvious reasons, associated with bastardy and feudal system). Now that this system went away, the correct response should have been to give women as much freedom as men - and not by shackling men in the same kind of bondage as women used to be forced into.

I think your chronology is a bit off. The expectation of fidelity in husbands came around long before gender equality.

Yeah, what is he talking about?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 07:45:30 AM
I think Marty should ask like, all the animal species in the world, about why the males engage in often extremely dangerous confrontations over who gets to mate with the females, instead of just taking turns.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Viking on October 25, 2011, 07:49:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2011, 07:45:30 AM
I think Marty should ask like, all the animal species in the world, about why the males engage in often extremely dangerous confrontations over who gets to mate with the females, instead of just taking turns.

actually... the shape of the head of the penis is ideal for removing any previously deposited "donations".. so yeah, evolution has made us well suited for taking turns, with the guy going last getting the best shot.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Malthus on October 25, 2011, 08:05:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 02:33:15 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
Cinema has more straight romances than gay romances. Straight romances are so generic and boring that movie producers need to have something go awry in them, at least for a while, to sell tickets. Gay romances in movies on the other hand are still quaint and different and have their hurdles in getting started.
This says nothing about straight people freaking out over cheating more than gays in real life.

Ok. It's just that from anecdotal evidence it seems like cheating in hetero couples is a big deal. For example, in most of divorcees I know, cheating was quoted as the prime reason for the divorce (unless of course it was just a convenient excuse).

To my mind, many of the differences anecdotally observed between gay & straight relationships have to do with social acceptance of said relationships.

In the past, and still in many places in the present, gay relationships were clandestine because homosexuality was not accepted by society. Therefore, making a virtue out of necessity, gay people adopted many of the mannerisms of hetero secret lovers (generally, adulterers): furtive sex, with or without emotional pair-bonding.

As homosexuality became accepted and gays moved for, and obtained equal rights, they sought & gained in some places the rights to be normal, socially-recognized couples - such as gay marriage, rights to adopt children as couples, etc.

Naturally, for a group who through social persecution were forced to live 'in the closet' and engage in furtive relationships, fidelity would not be the most significant virtue. My prediction is that this will change in lockstep with increased social acceptance. The reason is that fidelity is primarily the virtue needed to form stable, recognized and lasting relationships, and is praised and practiced whenever such relationships are held up as the ideal.

This has nothing to do with biological determinism and everything to do with social structure. For examplke, in ancient Greece fidelity among homosexual partners was encouraged in some places because it added stability to the phalanx in war. 
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
I am too lazy to read the whole fucking article, especially since Mart trolled at the opening, but has anyone said it is because we have a social system where monogamy is the norm and that behavior is therefore enculturated and nourished (even if it is not 100% practised)?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Malthus on October 25, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
I am too lazy to read the whole fucking article, especially since Mart trolled at the opening, but has anyone said it is because we have a social system where monogamy is the norm and that behavior is therefore enculturated and nourished (even if it is not 100% practised)?

Right above your post.  :D
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 08:55:15 AM
Quote from: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
I am too lazy to read the whole fucking article, especially since Mart trolled at the opening, but has anyone said it is because we have a social system where monogamy is the norm and that behavior is therefore enculturated and nourished (even if it is not 100% practised)?

Your explanation doesn't explain.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:56:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 25, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
I am too lazy to read the whole fucking article, especially since Mart trolled at the opening, but has anyone said it is because we have a social system where monogamy is the norm and that behavior is therefore enculturated and nourished (even if it is not 100% practised)?

Right above your post.  :D
tldr
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:57:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 08:55:15 AM
Quote from: PDH on October 25, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
I am too lazy to read the whole fucking article, especially since Mart trolled at the opening, but has anyone said it is because we have a social system where monogamy is the norm and that behavior is therefore enculturated and nourished (even if it is not 100% practised)?

Your explanation doesn't explain.
tldr
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 08:57:23 AM
gtfo
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2011, 09:50:57 AM
Fidelity is also good for your bank balance and personal happiness.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: PDH on October 25, 2011, 09:58:59 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 08:57:23 AM
gtfo
meowtf?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 25, 2011, 10:29:05 AM
u mad bro?
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 25, 2011, 04:51:23 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2011, 09:50:57 AM
Fidelity is also good for your bank balance and personal happiness.

I like Fidelity as well but there are other good asset managers and brokerages out there.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Grey Fox on October 25, 2011, 06:06:28 PM
To the original question. You should know this Martinus, you are a catholic after all.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: merithyn on October 25, 2011, 08:45:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 05:03:35 AM
It's unreasonable. It's like showing your affection and loyalty by starving yourself or refraing from peeing for days. If the object of your affection forces you to refrain from satisfying your basic biological needs, then perhaps he/she is unworthy of this affection in the first place?

See, this is where the equality of genders went in the wrong direction. It used to be that men were allowed to fuck around and only women were expected to keep faithful (for obvious reasons, associated with bastardy and feudal system). Now that this system went away, the correct response should have been to give women as much freedom as men - and not by shackling men in the same kind of bondage as women used to be forced into.

I guess I just disagree. To me, the most intimate I can be with someone is during sex. To share that intimacy with someone else would feel disloyal and wrong to me. There is a part of me that really hopes that Max would not want to share that intimacy with anyone else, either. If he did, I would be hurt - probably a bit angry - but it wouldn't end our marriage. It would be a time to sit down and talk about what's going on, what he wants out of our relationship, and what we can do to build a stronger marriage.

I have nothing against the way that you live your life, Marti, but it's not how I want to live mine. I've done things your way before and it was an empty, awful life for me. I prefer the dedicated, monogamous lifestyle to the decadent, do as I want when I want lifestyle.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Razgovory on October 25, 2011, 09:00:33 PM
Marty doesn't love anyone, so the idea is strange to him.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: merithyn on October 25, 2011, 09:11:13 PM
The more I think about it, the more I realize that the real thing I crave is stability. I want to know that he will be there for me, will take care of me, let me take care of him, and that we are a partnership in life. If he's off with other women, that undermines that stability.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
Hrm. I would turn this around, Marti; why do you like having sex with strangers so much that you would want to do it with someone you would prefer it over a monogamous relationship?

I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 26, 2011, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.

I think you need a qualifier in there like many or possibly most.

Also, just because someone isn't monogamous doesn't mean they are having sex with strangers. :huh:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2011, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.

I think you need a qualifier in there like many or possibly most.

Also, just because someone isn't monogamous doesn't mean they are having sex with strangers. :huh:
Yeah, a teeny bit of excluded middle there!  :lol:
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: dps on October 26, 2011, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2011, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.

I think you need a qualifier in there like many or possibly most.

Also, just because someone isn't monogamous doesn't mean they are having sex with strangers. :huh:
Yeah, a teeny bit of excluded middle there!  :lol:

Yeah, I'm sure Faeelin and Meri would both look at it differently if they caught the SOs cheating with someone they actuallly know, rather than a complete stranger.  That would make it soooo much better.   :)
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: garbon on October 26, 2011, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: dps on October 26, 2011, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2011, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.

I think you need a qualifier in there like many or possibly most.

Also, just because someone isn't monogamous doesn't mean they are having sex with strangers. :huh:
Yeah, a teeny bit of excluded middle there!  :lol:

Yeah, I'm sure Faeelin and Meri would both look at it differently if they caught the SOs cheating with someone they actuallly know, rather than a complete stranger.  That would make it soooo much better.   :)


I don't think that's relevant to grumbler or my comments.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: dps on October 26, 2011, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2011, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: dps on October 26, 2011, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2011, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 26, 2011, 12:03:36 AM
I mean, I get it, sex is fun; but people prefer monogamy for a reason.

I think you need a qualifier in there like many or possibly most.

Also, just because someone isn't monogamous doesn't mean they are having sex with strangers. :huh:
Yeah, a teeny bit of excluded middle there!  :lol:

Yeah, I'm sure Faeelin and Meri would both look at it differently if they caught the SOs cheating with someone they actuallly know, rather than a complete stranger.  That would make it soooo much better.   :)


I don't think that's relevant to grumbler or my comments.

There's a good chance that it isn't.  I've been up about 30 hours straight, so I'm probably not at my sharpest right now. 
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Rasputin on October 26, 2011, 05:35:21 PM
i do not have enough information to make a valid comparison

first, as we all know, in the hetero world, a woman who cheats on her man is engaging in a reprehensible act of disloyalty and turning her man into a cuckold; stoning her may be a reasonable reaction to this conduct depending upon one's religious beliefs

conversely, a man who breaks off a little piece on the side is "sport fucking" -- this is morally no different than his playing a round of golf or a morning fishing at the lake

therefore, in order to therefore make any valid comparison, marty needs to first tell us whether gays react differently if the cheater is the rump ranger or the pillow biter


finally, its not cheating if it's a menage a trois or the zip code rule is in play and these are variables that add significant complexity to any comparison
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 26, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
Thinking about it, I was wondering what my actual reaction would be to finding out I'd been cheated on, and I'm not quite sure. Putting aside the usual bluster and whatever. Would I first be angry? Maybe feel guilty that she'd feel the need to go elsewhere for fulfillment? What if she cheated with a girl--would that make a difference?


Whatever it would be would likely not be the "expected" thing of flying into a rage. Of that I'm fairly certain.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Rasputin on October 26, 2011, 08:33:05 PM
If she cheated with a girl that would be just plain hott and not cheating
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 27, 2011, 01:01:39 PM
Quote from: Rasputin on October 26, 2011, 08:33:05 PM
If she cheated with a girl that would be just plain hott and not cheating


I'd like to think I would disagree with that because it's what you're supposed to think. But...no. I have to admit I would have significantly less problem with it. Maybe there is some sort of evolutionary caveman reason like there not being a threat of impregnation.
Title: Re: Question for breeders: why the freak out over cheating?
Post by: Malthus on October 27, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 27, 2011, 01:01:39 PM
Quote from: Rasputin on October 26, 2011, 08:33:05 PM
If she cheated with a girl that would be just plain hott and not cheating


I'd like to think I would disagree with that because it's what you're supposed to think. But...no. I have to admit I would have significantly less problem with it. Maybe there is some sort of evolutionary caveman reason like there not being a threat of impregnation.

Or, without going all biological-determinismy on us - less threat of invidious comparison, and greater potential for - collaboration.  :lol: