Languish.org

This topic came up in the Canada thread, and I think it deserves it's own thread.

Whether it's English, Chinese, another language entirely, or some unholy creole of a couple of the more widespread languages, would it better to have one language spoken throughout the world?

I say yes. The ability of all people to communicate with each other would promote economic growth, faster scientific advancement and more effective diplomacy.

This in my opinion outweighs the disadvantages, which would include the loss of certain cultural nuances and modes of thought which would be difficult (perhaps even impossible in a few cases) to express in the new language. Obviously some people will argue that the loss will far exceed what I just expressed, and vote no based on that reasoning.

So, what say you Languish?

Yes and it should be English.  But it is not going to happen any time soon.

No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

Concur with Zanza; a lingua franca is the way forward. It is difficult to quantify or define, but language does seem to affect culture. The world is getting quite bland enough and some small boost to economic growth is not worth further blandification.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

If *everybody* knows English other languages will die out naturally, as the Gaelic languages are doing.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 25, 2011, 02:40:37 AM
Concur with Zanza; a lingua franca is the way forward. It is difficult to quantify or define, but language does seem to affect culture. The world is getting quite bland enough and some small boost to economic growth is not worth further blandification.

While yes, a Common Language as a second language for everyone would suffice (English is basically right there, it's just that many people decide to disadvantage themselves by not learning it), I am not sure lotsa' languages is the way to fight blandification. Without a common language to establish links between these local-speaking groups, blandification can only increase.

This is obviously something you cannot see around you, but being a non-english native I can: there is a HUGE gap culturally between those who at least read English semi-decently, and those who don't.  Thanks to the Internet, no doubt.  And I mean mostly popular culture, and the ability to easily research basic stuff via google and wikipedia. So not some esoretic elitist knowledge, but stuff which makes your everyday life more enjoyable and varied, and your daily life easier.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

Yeah.  I guess I'll vote yes because I'm pretty sure Tim didn't mean "forced eradication of all languages but English," although on the other hand I could probably get a good job in the camp system.

Linguæ Francæ über alles!

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 25, 2011, 02:42:00 AMIf *everybody* knows English other languages will die out naturally, as the Gaelic languages are doing.

Not really. My English is pretty much fluent and I have a couple of friends that speak it fluently as well, yet we never have a conversation in English.

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 02:57:46 AMWhile yes, a Common Language as a second language for everyone would suffice (English is basically right there, it's just that many people decide to disadvantage themselves by not learning it), I am not sure lotsa' languages is the way to fight blandification. Without a common language to establish links between these local-speaking groups, blandification can only increase.

This is obviously something you cannot see around you, but being a non-english native I can: there is a HUGE gap culturally between those who at least read English semi-decently, and those who don't.  Thanks to the Internet, no doubt.  And I mean mostly popular culture, and the ability to easily research basic stuff via google and wikipedia. So not some esoretic elitist knowledge, but stuff which makes your everyday life more enjoyable and varied, and your daily life easier.

That disadvantage is smaller when your first language is one that is more widely spoken than Hungarian though. While there is certainly more information available in English, there is still plenty in German. And I assume it's the same in French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese etc.

I agree with Zanza and others. I also think the current inefficiency problems do not come from "defense of first language" per se, but from certain groups insisting their language becomes the official second language in certain regions or counries, in lieu of English.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 03:21:07 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 02:57:46 AMWhile yes, a Common Language as a second language for everyone would suffice (English is basically right there, it's just that many people decide to disadvantage themselves by not learning it), I am not sure lotsa' languages is the way to fight blandification. Without a common language to establish links between these local-speaking groups, blandification can only increase.

This is obviously something you cannot see around you, but being a non-english native I can: there is a HUGE gap culturally between those who at least read English semi-decently, and those who don't.  Thanks to the Internet, no doubt.  And I mean mostly popular culture, and the ability to easily research basic stuff via google and wikipedia. So not some esoretic elitist knowledge, but stuff which makes your everyday life more enjoyable and varied, and your daily life easier.

That disadvantage is smaller when your first language is one that is more widely spoken than Hungarian though. While there is certainly more information available in English, there is still plenty in German. And I assume it's the same in French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese etc.

True. But the cultural aspect still must be there. Lack of an ability to communicate can only alienate people from each other.

Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2011, 03:26:44 AM
I agree with Zanza and others. I also think the current inefficiency problems do not come from "defense of first language" per se, but from certain groups insisting their language becomes the official second language in certain regions or counries, in lieu of English.

So, the problem is that there is no globally accepted official common language. True.

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 03:35:58 AM
So, the problem is that there is no globally accepted official common language. True.

Official? There is no authority that could define a common language.

English is de facto the globally accepted common language. Not necessarily the English that British or Americans speak, but some pidgin variant that is understood everywhere.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 03:43:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 03:35:58 AM
So, the problem is that there is no globally accepted official common language. True.

Official? There is no authority that could define a common language.

English is de facto the globally accepted common language. Not necessarily the English that British or Americans speak, but some pidgin variant that is understood everywhere.

Yes, I am merely trying to answer Tim's original question :P

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 03:43:50 AM
English is de facto the globally accepted common language. Not necessarily the English that British or Americans speak, but some pidgin variant that is understood everywhere.

A million years ago I read somewhere that the true international language is broken English.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 03:43:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 03:35:58 AM
So, the problem is that there is no globally accepted official common language. True.

Official? There is no authority that could define a common language.

English is de facto the globally accepted common language. Not necessarily the English that British or Americans speak, but some pidgin variant that is understood everywhere.

It's not about authority really - it's about stuff like Germans or the French insisting that shit is translated into their language rather than into English (vide the horrible inefficiency of conducting the official EU business in French and German where English could just suffice).

The problem is not about people wanting their local language not to die out, but some language groups (I think in Europe the French are the most annoyingly silly about it) insisting their language rather than English becomes the international language.

To give you an example how this silliness works - when making an application to the EU institutions (such as the European Commission or the European Court of Justice), you can write in your local language of the EU member state, but also have to translate it into English, French or German, and the commission or the court will respond in that language.

Most people in Europe speak English, and therefore it would make sense that the language of communication (whether as a translation or not) is just English - but because of political bickering, tons of snotty idiotic Germans and French write their applications in their silly language - and get a response in the same language. Which means the body of European case law is not uniform and you have to translate it sometimes into English, when a certain deicision is not available in English.

I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

This. Everyone keeps their cultural distinctiveness and identity, and also get to communicate with everyone else.

Quote from: Warspite on August 25, 2011, 04:39:28 AM

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

This. Everyone keeps their cultural distinctiveness and identity, and also get to communicate with everyone else.

I grew up speaking two languages. Icelandic at home and English outside. I was so completely unphased by this that when I went back to Iceland at age 3 I actually was a bit distressed when I found out that all the other kids didn't speak English outside. I also sort of presumed all the kids in England spoke Icelandic at home just like I did.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

Chinese do not expect non-Chinese to speak Chinese. 

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 05:46:57 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

Chinese do not expect non-Chinese to speak Chinese.

So do the Chinese agree that their language is inflexible and difficult to learn?

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 06:24:26 AM

So do the Chinese agree that their language is inflexible and difficult to learn?

It is difficult for, say, English native speakers to learn. 

Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2011, 04:19:42 AM
To give you an example how this silliness works - when making an application to the EU institutions (such as the European Commission or the European Court of Justice), you can write in your local language of the EU member state, but also have to translate it into English, French or German, and the commission or the court will respond in that language.

Most people in Europe speak English, and therefore it would make sense that the language of communication (whether as a translation or not) is just English - but because of political bickering, tons of snotty idiotic Germans and French write their applications in their silly language - and get a response in the same language. Which means the body of European case law is not uniform and you have to translate it sometimes into English, when a certain deicision is not available in English.

So your argument is that a uniform language would make your job a bit less of a hassle?

Quote from: Warspite on August 25, 2011, 04:39:28 AM

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

This. Everyone keeps their cultural distinctiveness and identity, and also get to communicate with everyone else.

Cultural distinctiveness and identity is stupid.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 06:34:23 AM
So your argument is that a uniform language would make your job a bit less of a hassle?

Also traveling.

Quote from: Neil on August 25, 2011, 07:07:22 AMCultural distinctiveness and identity is stupid.

:yes:

yes to uniform language, and yes to one world government. it may not happen in even five hundred years, but then i doubt the question posed by timmay demands that it be constrained by feasible reality. the existence of other languages means that there will be those who speak the non-globalized one at home, to their children, etc, which threatens the goal of one language. the objective should not be a world where everyone knows how to at least sort of communicate with each other, but a world where everyone can communicate perfectly with one another

edit: wrong emoticon, stupid 56k

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 06:29:45 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 06:24:26 AM

So do the Chinese agree that their language is inflexible and difficult to learn?

It is difficult for, say, English native speakers to learn.

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

If it were used all the time I would consider it.

But it is not like you are bombarded by Chinese all the time.  I am not tempted to learn it so I can enjoy the latest popular movie in the original or just must read the latest amazing book in the original or be among the elite in world culture.  Chinese is spoken by alot of people but is not really a big cultural presence, at least not visibly from where I sit.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM
The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

If the rest of the world got ahold of it we would shape it to our needs.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 06:29:45 AM
It is difficult for, say, English native speakers to learn. 

But easy for, say, Hindi speakers to learn?

Anyway there will eventually be a lingua franca for the entire world.  Heck we practically have one already.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 07:42:28 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

If it were used all the time I would consider it.

But it is not like you are bombarded by Chinese all the time.  I am not tempted to learn it so I can enjoy the latest popular movie in the original or just must read the latest amazing book in the original or be among the elite in world culture.  Chinese is spoken by alot of people but is not really a big cultural presence, at least not visibly from where I sit.

Slaves don't produce a lot of culture.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 25, 2011, 02:42:00 AM

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

If *everybody* knows English other languages will die out naturally, as the Gaelic languages are doing.

not really.  At one point or another, lots of people were learning a second language.  Most haven't died.

And of course, no, we do not need only one language, nor is it desirable.  It's been proven that bilingual or trilingual people have more brain power than unilinguals:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/brains-of-bilingual-people-wired-differently-study-says/3444

You lose a lot by having only one language.  And you don't gain much.  We could also all be white with blond hairs and blue eyes.  Some say it's better that way.

What you guys are missing is that while there is a natural tendancy for language to spread and become common, there is an equal and opposite tendancy for groups to develop their own versions of it, less and less comprehesible to outsiders.

The elites have always had some sort of commonly understood language - whether it be the Latin of the Church, or the French of diplomacy. The commoners have always made do with some sort of lingua franca, or some type of pidgin, made up of a mixture of the dominant language of the day with all sorts of other expressions from a variety of local languages. Meanwhile, the dominant language gets divided by slang, by local variants, etc.

You will never, bar force, get everyone speaking one common language, for the simple reason that language is always changing. Even if everyone in the world spoke perfect English tomorrow, the day after the language would start to develop local variants ...

My prediction: English will indeed become both the dominant (though not sole) language of the international elite, and in a form highly infected with neologisms as seen on the Internet, the lingua franca of the mass for purposes of international communication; meanwhile, languages will go on merrily developing as they always have, with local variants - see the Indian version of English. 

Moreover, there are benefits to being multi-lingual, and none to being unilingual. So this state of affairs is both natural and desireable.

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 08:25:46 AM
And of course, no, we do not need only one language, nor is it desirable.  It's been proven that bilingual or trilingual people have more brain power than unilinguals:

Wouldn't that mean it is better everybody know their local language plus a universal lingua franca? :hmm:

QuoteYou lose a lot by having only one language.  And you don't gain much.  We could also all be white with blond hairs and blue eyes.  Some say it's better that way.

Yeah I fail to see how looking the same has anything to do with people being able to communicate with each other.  How is looking the same useful?

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:28:23 AM
You will never, bar force, get everyone speaking one common language, for the simple reason that language is always changing. Even if everyone in the world spoke perfect English tomorrow, the day after the language would start to develop local variants ...

Sure if everybody was isolated from each other and there was no world culture to go with it.  I have not noticed each town in the US developing its own language.  I mean they might to some extent but not enough to prevent people from freely moving and communicating with each other.

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:28:23 AM
What you guys are missing is that while there is a natural tendancy for language to spread and become common, there is an equal and opposite tendancy for groups to develop their own versions of it, less and less comprehesible to outsiders.

The elites have always had some sort of commonly understood language - whether it be the Latin of the Church, or the French of diplomacy. The commoners have always made do with some sort of lingua franca, or some type of pidgin, made up of a mixture of the dominant language of the day with all sorts of other expressions from a variety of local languages. Meanwhile, the dominant language gets divided by slang, by local variants, etc.

You will never, bar force, get everyone speaking one common language, for the simple reason that language is always changing. Even if everyone in the world spoke perfect English tomorrow, the day after the language would start to develop local variants ...

My prediction: English will indeed become both the dominant (though not sole) language of the international elite, and in a form highly infected with neologisms as seen on the Internet, the lingua franca of the mass for purposes of international communication; meanwhile, languages will go on merrily developing as they always have, with local variants - see the Indian version of English. 

Moreover, there are benefits to being multi-lingual, and none to being unilingual. So this state of affairs is both natural and desireable.

Television, Radio, Film and mass transit greatly retard the spread of dialects on a subnational level. There's a reason that 50-90% of the world's languages are expected to go extinct in the next hundred years and that reason is the vastly increased urbanization and inter-connectivity of global society.

Everybody knowing English with optional local tongue seems fine to me.

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 08:25:46 AM
And of course, no, we do not need only one language, nor is it desirable.  It's been proven that bilingual or trilingual people have more brain power than unilinguals:

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.  How's that for trilingual?

QuoteYou lose a lot by having only one language.  And you don't gain much.  We could also all be white with blond hairs and blue eyes.  Some say it's better that way.

You don't really lose anything.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 08:36:34 AM

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:28:23 AM
You will never, bar force, get everyone speaking one common language, for the simple reason that language is always changing. Even if everyone in the world spoke perfect English tomorrow, the day after the language would start to develop local variants ...

Sure if everybody was isolated from each other and there was no world culture to go with it.  I have not noticed each town in the US developing its own language.  I mean they might to some extent but not enough to prevent people from freely moving and communicating with each other.

Mass communications mean that it is not locale that determines dialect, but socio-economic class, ethnicity, interests, etc. etc.

Try listening to some ghetto kids.

Quote from: Ideologue on August 25, 2011, 07:51:24 AM

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 07:42:28 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
I'd rather not have to learn Chinese.  From what I understand it's a fucking nightmare to learn.

If it were used all the time I would consider it.

But it is not like you are bombarded by Chinese all the time.  I am not tempted to learn it so I can enjoy the latest popular movie in the original or just must read the latest amazing book in the original or be among the elite in world culture.  Chinese is spoken by alot of people but is not really a big cultural presence, at least not visibly from where I sit.

Slaves don't produce a lot of culture.

In the US they did.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 08:37:27 AM
Television, Radio, Film and mass transit greatly retard the spread of dialects on a subnational level. There's a reason that 50-90% of the world's languages are expected to go extinct in the next hundred years and that reason is the vastly increased urbanization and inter-connectivity of global society.

Media and interconnectivity means that you can speak perfectly well with that teacher over in Hong Kong, but find it difficult to understand the kids hanging out at the mall next door.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 07:45:16 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 06:29:45 AM
It is difficult for, say, English native speakers to learn. 

But easy for, say, Hindi speakers to learn?

Hindi is distantly related to English.  Chinese is utterly alien to both.

The main problem with learing (spoken) Chinese is that it is a tonal language - meaning that the meaning of words depends on the tone used to speak them.

Since English is not a tonal language, this is very difficult for English speakers to learn. The difference between "ma" (rising tone), "ma" (descending tone) and "ma" (desending then rising tone) are difficult for English speakers (and I assume other non-tonal language speakers) to grasp.

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:55:01 AM
Mass communications mean that it is not locale that determines dialect, but socio-economic class, ethnicity, interests, etc. etc.

Try listening to some ghetto kids.

Yeah I worked with them for years.  I never had any problems speaking with them.

For one I knew the sort of music they listened to and their slang are part of our mass culture.  Heck their style of dress and speech are imitated around the world.

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:28:23 AM
What you guys are missing is that while there is a natural tendancy for language to spread and become common, there is an equal and opposite tendancy for groups to develop their own versions of it, less and less comprehesible to outsiders.

The elites have always had some sort of commonly understood language - whether it be the Latin of the Church, or the French of diplomacy. The commoners have always made do with some sort of lingua franca, or some type of pidgin, made up of a mixture of the dominant language of the day with all sorts of other expressions from a variety of local languages. Meanwhile, the dominant language gets divided by slang, by local variants, etc.

You will never, bar force, get everyone speaking one common language, for the simple reason that language is always changing. Even if everyone in the world spoke perfect English tomorrow, the day after the language would start to develop local variants ...

My prediction: English will indeed become both the dominant (though not sole) language of the international elite, and in a form highly infected with neologisms as seen on the Internet, the lingua franca of the mass for purposes of international communication; meanwhile, languages will go on merrily developing as they always have, with local variants - see the Indian version of English. 

Moreover, there are benefits to being multi-lingual, and none to being unilingual. So this state of affairs is both natural and desireable.

I think distance and time were the major factor in language shifts.  Two villages speaking the same language separated by a three hundred miles would slowly develop their own dialects do to the isolation.  This isolation doesn't exist as much today.  You don't see people in the same city develop different languages over time.  They might use different jargon or will perhaps use deliberate obscuration (such a Cockney or Fenya), but those are the exception rather then the rule.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 09:01:56 AM

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 08:55:01 AM
Mass communications mean that it is not locale that determines dialect, but socio-economic class, ethnicity, interests, etc. etc.

Try listening to some ghetto kids.

Yeah I worked with them for years.  I never had any problems speaking with them.

For one I knew the sort of music they listened to and their slang are part of our mass culture.  Heck their style of dress and speech are imitated around the world.

That's my point - language development, in an era of mass culture, will not be bounded by distance but will nevertheless occur - as different socio-economic, racial, ethnic, etc. groups develop language that while being "English" is not necessarily mutually understandable.

Certainly *you* could understand these ghetto kids - but *my dad*, who speaks "perfect English" (he's an extremely articulate university professor), could not.

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 09:12:43 AM
Certainly *you* could understand these ghetto kids - but *my dad*, who speaks "perfect English" (he's an extremely articulate university professor), could not.

That is because his old fashioned brand of English is dying out to be supplanted by the new universal ghetto english.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 09:14:23 AM

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 09:12:43 AM
Certainly *you* could understand these ghetto kids - but *my dad*, who speaks "perfect English" (he's an extremely articulate university professor), could not.

That is because his old fashioned brand of English is dying out to be supplanted by the new universal ghetto english.

:P

Not so. What you will get, is two different strands parting ways, combined with a freezing of social mobility - the elois and the morlocks, if you will.  :hmm:

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 08:33:10 AM
Wouldn't that mean it is better everybody know their local language plus a universal lingua franca? :hmm:

Often during times, one language was a language of commerce, another a language used for everything else.
It doesn't have to be one lingua franca.  I find the world, language-wise, ok as it is.
I'm French, I can read you, I can see your tv, read your papers.  Some don't, it's their loss.
HVC has Portuguese origins he can read this forum.
I can't understand Portuguese, he can't understand French.  Yet, we found a way.  Neither of us is uniligual.
Neil speaks French & Latin, and probably some east european language as well.

Nobody needs to speak only language.

Quote
Yeah I fail to see how looking the same has anything to do with people being able to communicate with each other.  How is looking the same useful?

Do we really communicate better because we have one language?  I look at your country and it seems to me you all speak the same language.  Yet, I keep hearing about political troubles in Congress, what with near-defaulft on the debt and such.  I keep seeing troubles between Republicans and Democrats.  Yet, they all speak the same language.

The Russians imposed one language throughout their empire.  The Soviets decided it was a good idea to make everyone the same, to solve their differences.  One country, one people.  How did that go for them?

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
The Russians imposed one language throughout their empire.  The Soviets decided it was a good idea to make everyone the same, to solve their differences.  One country, one people.  How did that go for them?

Not too good.  But nobody is wanting to create one people through legislation and force.  I think there will be one common way of communication just because we all are going to be communicating alot and therefore such a thing is needed.  Where there is a need humans fill that need.

I mean I am just saying what I think will be so in the future.  I do not mean to say it wil be a wholley positive good or that any steps need to be taken to get there.  Just that it will happen.  Heck people are moving to protect local languages...what are they protecting them from?

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 09:18:10 AM
Not so. What you will get, is two different strands parting ways, combined with a freezing of social mobility - the elois and the morlocks, if you will.  :hmm:

You are way too hairy to be an eloi. :contract:

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 25, 2011, 09:36:53 AM

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 09:18:10 AM
Not so. What you will get, is two different strands parting ways, combined with a freezing of social mobility - the elois and the morlocks, if you will.  :hmm:

You are way too hairy to be an eloi. :contract:

Hell, who would want to be? Hunted by morlocks isn't any sort of life.  :P

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
The Russians imposed one language throughout their empire.  The Soviets decided it was a good idea to make everyone the same, to solve their differences.  One country, one people.  How did that go for them?

If they were still around the technological advances in media in the last 20 years would be accelerating their linguistic/cultural imperialism.

Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I'm woefully under qualified for, but since I'm fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I’m woefully under qualified for, but since I’m fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Bilingualism is great.  Having any sort of skill is great.  It is just a hard skill to get it takes, like, work and stuff.

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I'm woefully under qualified for, but since I'm fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 08:25:46 AM
And of course, no, we do not need only one language, nor is it desirable.  It's been proven that bilingual or trilingual people have more brain power than unilinguals:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/brains-of-bilingual-people-wired-differently-study-says/3444

Actually, your link doesn't say that at all (it says that bilingual people read slightly better in both languages).  Nevertheless, you are correct that learning a second language allows a person to understand more about their first language, especially when those languages are related (Latin does as much in this respect as French or Spanish).  This effect isn't strong, though.

QuoteYou lose a lot by having only one language.  And you don't gain much.

I'd argue that you lose little and gain little.  Having a single common language would be a huge gain, but there is no reason to restrict everyone to that one language.

Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2011, 10:15:30 AM
Having a single common language would be a huge gain, but there is no reason to restrict everyone to that one language.

...except to avoid translation and localization costs.

Quote from: ulmont on August 25, 2011, 10:26:28 AM

Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2011, 10:15:30 AM
Having a single common language would be a huge gain, but there is no reason to restrict everyone to that one language.

...except to avoid translation and localization costs.

Under those circumstances, you don't want to avoid those costs.  That would be like banning literacy to save on printing costs.

Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2011, 10:36:48 AM
Under those circumstances, you don't want to avoid those costs.  That would be like banning literacy to save on printing costs.

I'm prepared to take up the literacy issue later.  My original offer was to, along with the rest of the world,* learn Icelandic in exchange for never having to deal with localization and translation issues.

* Except Icelanders, but there are only like 3 of them anyway.

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
The Russians imposed one language throughout their empire.  The Soviets decided it was a good idea to make everyone the same, to solve their differences.  One country, one people.  How did that go for them?

The Soviets typically designed their apartments such that a toilet and a bath tub were in separate rooms, rather than in one room as is typical in US.  How did that work out for them?

Quote from: DGuller on August 25, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
The Soviets typically designed their apartments such that a toilet and a bath tub were in separate rooms, rather than in one room as is typical in US.  How did that work out for them?

My Hod!  No wonder we won the Cold War.

Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2011, 04:19:42 AM
To give you an example how this silliness works - when making an application to the EU institutions (such as the European Commission or the European Court of Justice), you can write in your local language of the EU member state, but also have to translate it into English, French or German, and the commission or the court will respond in that language.

Most people in Europe speak English, and therefore it would make sense that the language of communication (whether as a translation or not) is just English - but because of political bickering, tons of snotty idiotic Germans and French write their applications in their silly language - and get a response in the same language. Which means the body of European case law is not uniform and you have to translate it sometimes into English, when a certain deicision is not available in English.

That all seems so messed up of a process just to try and avoid a major language that Europe has in common, and a major Euro nation speaks (UK)!   :huh:

Quote from: ulmont on August 25, 2011, 10:39:51 AM

Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2011, 10:36:48 AM
Under those circumstances, you don't want to avoid those costs.  That would be like banning literacy to save on printing costs.

I'm prepared to take up the literacy issue later.  My original offer was to, along with the rest of the world,* learn Icelandic in exchange for never having to deal with localization and translation issues.

* Except Icelanders, but there are only like 3 of them anyway.

I don't understand why you responded to my post.  I said nothing about Icelandic, nor do I think the elimination of "localization and translation issues" is a good thing.  As research has shown, localization and translation issues are good things that make the multilingual speaker/reader/listener marginally better in all his or her languages.

Having a single universal language would be a good thing, so long as your suggestion is avoided and we don't restrict everyone to that single language.

Quote from: DGuller on August 25, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
The Soviets Europeans typically designed their apartments such that a toilet and a bath tub were in separate rooms, rather than in one room as is typical in US.  How did that work out for them?

FYPFY.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 03:21:07 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2011, 02:57:46 AMWhile yes, a Common Language as a second language for everyone would suffice (English is basically right there, it's just that many people decide to disadvantage themselves by not learning it), I am not sure lotsa' languages is the way to fight blandification. Without a common language to establish links between these local-speaking groups, blandification can only increase.

This is obviously something you cannot see around you, but being a non-english native I can: there is a HUGE gap culturally between those who at least read English semi-decently, and those who don't.  Thanks to the Internet, no doubt.  And I mean mostly popular culture, and the ability to easily research basic stuff via google and wikipedia. So not some esoretic elitist knowledge, but stuff which makes your everyday life more enjoyable and varied, and your daily life easier.

That disadvantage is smaller when your first language is one that is more widely spoken than Hungarian though. While there is certainly more information available in English, there is still plenty in German. And I assume it's the same in French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese etc.

Up to a certain degree. Some things are so obscure that English is pretty much the only way to go. Which is why it pisses me off to no end when Google always redirects me to the .es page. If I wanted to be there I'd go myself.

Quote from: KRonn on August 25, 2011, 11:41:37 AM

Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2011, 04:19:42 AM
To give you an example how this silliness works - when making an application to the EU institutions (such as the European Commission or the European Court of Justice), you can write in your local language of the EU member state, but also have to translate it into English, French or German, and the commission or the court will respond in that language.

Most people in Europe speak English, and therefore it would make sense that the language of communication (whether as a translation or not) is just English - but because of political bickering, tons of snotty idiotic Germans and French write their applications in their silly language - and get a response in the same language. Which means the body of European case law is not uniform and you have to translate it sometimes into English, when a certain deicision is not available in English.

That all seems so messed up of a process just to try and avoid a major language that Europe has in common, and a major Euro nation speaks (UK)!   :huh:

It's the convenience of using your own language, not avoidance of using English. The latter is just Marti's personal interpretation.

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I’m woefully under qualified for, but since I’m fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)


Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

It doesn't matter how many or how few languages there are in the world.  What would make the world a better place (well, Languish anyway) would be if Timmay couldn't post in any of them.

Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2011, 11:59:43 AM

Quote from: DGuller on August 25, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
The Soviets Europeans typically designed their apartments such that a toilet and a bath tub were in separate rooms, rather than in one room as is typical in US.  How did that work out for them?

FYPFY.

yes, and it is way more civilized the European way.

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I'm woefully under qualified for, but since I'm fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)

Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

:yuk: That's Azorean pidgin, sorry.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I’m woefully under qualified for, but since I’m fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)

Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

:yuk: That's Azorean pidgin, sorry.

hey, i have family from nazare and lisbon here, and they use it too :P

Quote from: dps on August 25, 2011, 01:30:02 PM
It doesn't matter how many or how few languages there are in the world.  What would make the world a better place (well, Languish anyway) would be if Timmay couldn't post in any of them.

The world would be a better place without Languish?  :hmm:

I love how I got away with insulting how HVC speaks portuguese, when I can't speak a word of it myself.  :showoff:

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 02:18:01 PM
I love how I got away with insulting how HVC speaks portuguese, when I can't speak a word of it myself.  :showoff:

Better than your pidgin-Ruthenian Ukrainian.

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 02:22:21 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 02:18:01 PM
I love how I got away with insulting how HVC speaks portuguese, when I can't speak a word of it myself.  :showoff:

Better than your pidgin-Ruthenian Ukrainian.

Insider's tip: if you wish to insult a Ukranian, call them a "little Russian". Works every time.  :D

Also, call Ukraine "The Ukraine".

Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2011, 02:34:07 PM

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 02:22:21 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 02:18:01 PM
I love how I got away with insulting how HVC speaks portuguese, when I can't speak a word of it myself.  :showoff:

Better than your pidgin-Ruthenian Ukrainian.

Insider's tip: if you wish to insult a Ukranian, call them a "little Russian". Works every time.  :D

Also, call Ukraine "The Ukraine".

:ultra: :ultra: :ultra:



Of course I can't even speak pidgin Ukrainian.  I probably only know 20 words or so.  :(

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I'm woefully under qualified for, but since I'm fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)

Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

:yuk: That's Azorean pidgin, sorry.

hey, i have family from nazare and lisbon here, and they use it too :P

Even if Lisboete is pretty bad, that's way worse than Lisboete since they don't use it. Same goes for Nazarese although it's not obnoxious as Lisboete. :contract:

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 02:45:36 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I’m woefully under qualified for, but since I’m fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)

Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

:yuk: That's Azorean pidgin, sorry.

hey, i have family from nazare and lisbon here, and they use it too :P

Even if Lisboete is pretty bad, that's way worse than Lisboete since they don't use it. Same goes for Nazarese although it's not obnoxious as Lisboete. :contract:

it's just the lingo here, meu (which i a purely euro portuguese term i hate).

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Harder?  It is almost impossible :contract:  Especially in the age of computers.  You can invent a new word.  Good luck to get the PRC computer system to accept it.  Because of the one child policy, a lot of parents are themselves single children, and both the father and the mother want to preserve their family name.  So they invent a new word as the surname for their child by combining their own respective family names.  Only to find that it is impossible to register the new word/name at government offices.  In the age of handwriting, the sympathetic officials can accept it.  But the local officials can't change the central computer database. 

Quote from: DGuller on August 25, 2011, 10:52:15 AM

Quote from: viper37 on August 25, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
The Russians imposed one language throughout their empire.  The Soviets decided it was a good idea to make everyone the same, to solve their differences.  One country, one people.  How did that go for them?

The Soviets typically designed their apartments such that a toilet and a bath tub were in separate rooms, rather than in one room as is typical in US.  How did that work out for them?

That's a really good idea.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 03:45:28 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Harder?  It is almost impossible :contract:  Especially in the age of computers.  You can invent a new word.  Good luck to get the PRC computer system to accept it.  Because of the one child policy, a lot of parents are themselves single children, and both the father and the mother want to preserve their family name.  So they invent a new word as the surname for their child by combining their own respective family names.  Only to find that it is impossible to register the new word/name at government offices.  In the age of handwriting, the sympathetic officials can accept it.  But the local officials can't change the central computer database.

Why don't you guys just develop a phonetic writing system?  Wouldn't that be easier?

Mono how do the Chinese deal with new technologies etc.

Quote from: crazy canuck on August 25, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Mono how do the Chinese deal with new technologies etc.

They steal 'em.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 25, 2011, 05:59:32 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on August 25, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Mono how do the Chinese deal with new technologies etc.

They steal 'em.

I would also have accepted copy 'em as a correct answer.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 25, 2011, 05:59:32 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on August 25, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Mono how do the Chinese deal with new technologies etc.

They steal 'em.

*rimshot*

Quote from: Ideologue on August 25, 2011, 05:01:38 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 03:45:28 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Harder?  It is almost impossible :contract:  Especially in the age of computers.  You can invent a new word.  Good luck to get the PRC computer system to accept it.  Because of the one child policy, a lot of parents are themselves single children, and both the father and the mother want to preserve their family name.  So they invent a new word as the surname for their child by combining their own respective family names.  Only to find that it is impossible to register the new word/name at government offices.  In the age of handwriting, the sympathetic officials can accept it.  But the local officials can't change the central computer database.

Why don't you guys just develop a phonetic writing system?  Wouldn't that be easier?

It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity. 

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on August 25, 2011, 05:01:38 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 03:45:28 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Harder?  It is almost impossible :contract:  Especially in the age of computers.  You can invent a new word.  Good luck to get the PRC computer system to accept it.  Because of the one child policy, a lot of parents are themselves single children, and both the father and the mother want to preserve their family name.  So they invent a new word as the surname for their child by combining their own respective family names.  Only to find that it is impossible to register the new word/name at government offices.  In the age of handwriting, the sympathetic officials can accept it.  But the local officials can't change the central computer database.

Why don't you guys just develop a phonetic writing system?  Wouldn't that be easier?

It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

There might be hundreds of dialects, but the main language just sounds terrible  :( We're getting way more northerner immigrants than in the past. Plus they're taller and uglier.  <_<

I want my cantonese chinamen back plz. Mono do something.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on August 25, 2011, 05:01:38 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 03:45:28 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

The lack of an alphabet would seem to make it somewhat inflexible.  Harder to add new words into the language.

Harder?  It is almost impossible :contract:  Especially in the age of computers.  You can invent a new word.  Good luck to get the PRC computer system to accept it.  Because of the one child policy, a lot of parents are themselves single children, and both the father and the mother want to preserve their family name.  So they invent a new word as the surname for their child by combining their own respective family names.  Only to find that it is impossible to register the new word/name at government offices.  In the age of handwriting, the sympathetic officials can accept it.  But the local officials can't change the central computer database.

Why don't you guys just develop a phonetic writing system?  Wouldn't that be easier?

It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

Centralization +1
Innovative -2.

-_-

Quote from: Zoupa on August 25, 2011, 10:19:22 PM
There might be hundreds of dialects, but the main language just sounds terrible  :( We're getting way more northerner immigrants than in the past. Plus they're taller and uglier.  <_<

I want my cantonese chinamen back plz. Mono do something.

*You* do something.  People will go to where the jobs are :contract:

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

The Chinese are very eager to learn English.  "He doesn't even know the 26 alphabets" is a popular insult.  Most Chinese do not believe that their language will become a lingua Franca, and they do not think it should be a goal.  I always laugh when I see foreigners learning Mandarin, thinking this will become trendy in the future.  Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.   

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:02:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

The Chinese are very eager to learn English.  "He doesn't even know the 26 alphabets" is a popular insult.  Most Chinese do not believe that their language will become a lingua Franca, and they do not think it should be a goal.  I always laugh when I see foreigners learning Mandarin, thinking this will become trendy in the future.  Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.

I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

It's important to learn Chinese so that we can crack your diplomatic code and then imprison every single one of you bastards that sets foot on the soil of a civilized nation.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:02:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

The Chinese are very eager to learn English.  "He doesn't even know the 26 alphabets" is a popular insult.  Most Chinese do not believe that their language will become a lingua Franca, and they do not think it should be a goal.  I always laugh when I see foreigners learning Mandarin, thinking this will become trendy in the future.  Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.

Well, at least you're realistic about it.  It's refreshing to see that sort of attitude.  So unlike the Quebecois.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:02:49 PM
Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.

And we have a WINNER!

Hell no.
And I wish the world language wasn`t English, it`s damaging for us (culturally and educationally, not economically of course)

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:02:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

The Chinese are very eager to learn English.  "He doesn't even know the 26 alphabets" is a popular insult.  Most Chinese do not believe that their language will become a lingua Franca, and they do not think it should be a goal.  I always laugh when I see foreigners learning Mandarin, thinking this will become trendy in the future.  Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.

Interesting, I had been wondering about that.  I've had some friends who tried to learn it.  They told me that it is very difficult since so many words sound the same.  Presumably they were talking about the intonations.  I have only one who really stuck with it, but since his wife is Chinese he feels obligated to do so.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

I'm talking about American born citizens. Just look at HVC, he's got a great opportunity with a company simply because he speaks Portuguese and the company has business in Brazil. The same applies even moreso to people who speak Chinese, because so much more business is done in China.

Quote from: Tyr on August 25, 2011, 11:29:09 PM
Hell no.
And I wish the world language wasn`t English, it`s damaging for us (culturally and educationally, not economically of course)

How?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 12:26:41 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

I'm talking about American born citizens. Just look at HVC, he's got a great opportunity with a company simply because he speaks Portuguese and the company has business in Brazil. The same applies even moreso to people who speak Chinese, because so much more business is done in China.

You really don't need Chinese speaking employees to do business with China.  There are plenty of people who speak fluent English here. 

Quote from: Ideologue on August 25, 2011, 11:21:15 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:02:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2011, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 09:59:58 PM


It has been developed.  It is called pinyin.  Nobody really uses it, except in teaching foreigners on pronounciation. 

The beauty of the Chinese system is that it is nigh on impossible to change the characters.  There are hundreds of dialects in China, but everybody uses the same writing system.  Great for maintaining language/national unity.

It's this sort of inflexibility that makes me think that Chinese will not become a lingua Franca even if China becomes a Superpower.  English, for all it's faults is very flexible.  New words can be added in very easily.  Nouns generally don't need genders and foreign words don't need to be modified much to be put into an English sentence.  English also lacks a great many grammatical elements found in other languages, such as admirative sentences or clusivity.  Which probably makes it easier to learn, but I suppose conveys less information.

The Chinese are very eager to learn English.  "He doesn't even know the 26 alphabets" is a popular insult.  Most Chinese do not believe that their language will become a lingua Franca, and they do not think it should be a goal.  I always laugh when I see foreigners learning Mandarin, thinking this will become trendy in the future.  Chinese have a responsibility to learn English.  Others do not have a responsibility to learn Chinese.

Well, at least you're realistic about it.  It's refreshing to see that sort of attitude.  So unlike the Quebecois.

Fermes donc ta gueule un peu, mon petit con. T'avaleras moins de mouches.

Maybe I like flies.  Maybe they're rich in nutrients.  Maybe they sexually excite me.

Maybe not though.

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 02:52:10 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 02:45:36 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 25, 2011, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: Barrister on August 25, 2011, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Bilingualism is good sometimes. for example i have a job interview on Monday that I'm woefully under qualified for, but since I'm fluent in Portuguese they're giving me a shot hah

Wait until they hear your pidgin Azorean Portuguese though. :weep:

Pidgin continental Portuguese, thank you very much! Actually, my spoken portuguese is fairly good (although there are NA worlds like Drivar, which would make some one in portugal very confused)

Though, i'll be communicating with brazillian, so it doesn't help lol

:yuk: That's Azorean pidgin, sorry.

hey, i have family from nazare and lisbon here, and they use it too :P

Even if Lisboete is pretty bad, that's way worse than Lisboete since they don't use it. Same goes for Nazarese although it's not obnoxious as Lisboete. :contract:

it's just the lingo here, meu (which i a purely euro portuguese term i hate).

Anglo Canadian Azorean pidgin  :bleeding: :x  :yuk:
The mix between French Canadian and Portuguese can be funny at times, at least.
Not a great fan of "meu" either but it's always better than drivar. You do know about conduzir or guiar at least, don't you?  :hmm:

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 01:24:52 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 12:26:41 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

I'm talking about American born citizens. Just look at HVC, he's got a great opportunity with a company simply because he speaks Portuguese and the company has business in Brazil. The same applies even moreso to people who speak Chinese, because so much more business is done in China.

You really don't need Chinese speaking employees to do business with China.  There are plenty of people who speak fluent English here.

Businesses and governments will always want their own representatives to speak the other language. Otherwise you're at the mercy of inaccurate and/or malicious translation.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 02:17:00 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 01:24:52 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 12:26:41 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

I'm talking about American born citizens. Just look at HVC, he's got a great opportunity with a company simply because he speaks Portuguese and the company has business in Brazil. The same applies even moreso to people who speak Chinese, because so much more business is done in China.

You really don't need Chinese speaking employees to do business with China.  There are plenty of people who speak fluent English here.

Businesses and governments will always want there own representatives to speak the other language. Otherwise you're at the mercy of inaccurate and/or malicious translation.

My point is, if your Chinese business/government counterparts are already speaking English with you, you don't really need your own Chinese translator. 

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 02:20:28 AM
My point is, if your Chinese business/government counterparts are already speaking English with you, you don't really need your own Chinese translator.

Be helpful when you overhear bits and pieces of conversation not meant for your ears.

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 02:20:28 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 02:17:00 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 01:24:52 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 12:26:41 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on August 25, 2011, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2011, 11:04:14 PM
I'd be surprised if even the best linguist at the State Department knows 26 alphabets.

Trendy? Given the dearth of Chinese speakers in the west I'm sure you can get yourself a great job that you're otherwise only marginally qualified for if you're fluent in it.

If you count waiting tables as great jobs, yeah, sure.  I know plenty of Chinese friends who waited tables in Vancouver  :lol:

I'm talking about American born citizens. Just look at HVC, he's got a great opportunity with a company simply because he speaks Portuguese and the company has business in Brazil. The same applies even moreso to people who speak Chinese, because so much more business is done in China.

You really don't need Chinese speaking employees to do business with China.  There are plenty of people who speak fluent English here.

Businesses and governments will always want there own representatives to speak the other language. Otherwise you're at the mercy of inaccurate and/or malicious translation.

My point is, if your Chinese business/government counterparts are already speaking English with you, you don't really need your own Chinese translator.

There's always a lot of paperwork involved in this kind of business, you need someone who works for you that can read the English and Chinese versions and make sure they're the same.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 12:27:08 AM

Quote from: Tyr on August 25, 2011, 11:29:09 PM
Hell no.
And I wish the world language wasn`t English, it`s damaging for us (culturally and educationally, not economically of course)

How?

Makes it much harder for Brits to learn foreign languages since there's no overwhelming amount of stuff in another foreign language and we don't need one to get by in the world.
Dumbs down English into being a simplistic international communication method. Destroys local dialects.
Of course the up side of the economic benefits outweigh this but still, its not all rosy.

Quote from: Tyr on August 26, 2011, 04:23:12 AM
Dumbs down English into being a simplistic international communication method.

I disagree. Native speakers continue to use dozens of words meaning the same thing and creating new slang all the time, regardless of the difficulty that creates for random foreigners with a workable knowledge of the language.

Consider this forum, for instance. When we split off from Paradox we had a heck of a lot more non-native speakers around(percentage wise as well as raw totals). Sure, the Atlanticist bent of the foreign policy discussions probably had something to do with a lot of exits, but much of the humor on the forum stems from wordplay and people who don't have a near-native understanding simply don't get it.

My understanding of English is positively aboriginal.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 01:56:31 AM

Anglo Canadian Azorean pidgin  :bleeding: :x  :yuk:
The mix between French Canadian and Portuguese can be funny at times, at least.
Not a great fan of "meu" either but it's always better than drivar. You do know about conduzir or guiar at least, don't you?  :hmm:

yes, i use guiar because conduzir sounds weird to me. I also use estacionar instead of parkar :lol:

Quote from: HVC on August 26, 2011, 05:40:58 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 01:56:31 AM

Anglo Canadian Azorean pidgin  :bleeding: :x  :yuk:
The mix between French Canadian and Portuguese can be funny at times, at least.
Not a great fan of "meu" either but it's always better than drivar. You do know about conduzir or guiar at least, don't you?  :hmm:

yes, i use guiar because conduzir sounds weird to me. I also use estacionar instead of parkar :lol:

There is hope, or at least a light in the darkness...

Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2011, 09:35:56 AM
Not too good.  But nobody is wanting to create one people through legislation and force.

Historically, you haven't been able to achieve one people/one language without either of it.
Modern French was developped when France decided everyone should speak the same French.  It's what was used in official communication, what was taught in schools.
People born in Quebec in the early 20th century had a slightly different dialect depending on where they were born.  IIRC, only through the 1960s was education made uniform from one corner of the province to the other (slight differences in pronounciation remain for some).

Quote
I think there will be one common way of communication just because we all are going to be communicating alot and therefore such a thing is needed.  Where there is a need humans fill that need.

Well, humans are what... 10-12 000 years old since the first civilizations?
We certainly have reduced the number of languages & dialects over the years.
But as soon as an empire crumbled, people in the area reverted to their old dialects mixed with the new language.  From German & French emerged English.  From Latin came Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and French (not counting Occitan and Basque language and a few others maybe).

For all the similarities and the exchanges between Germany (well, the states forming what is now Germany), the Dutch and the English, these 3 languages haven't merged over the years. Yet, they are close by, geographically speaking, and they have had significant cultural and economical exchanges over the last 500 years.  I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe these 3 languages are coming closer.

I've read an article some years ago stating that American blacks were moving toward their own distinct dialect of english.  Sometimes, hearing Southerners or Texans speak on tv, I wonder if you truly speak the same english.

I don't see a unique language for everyone without some kind of coercitive measures.

Quote
I mean I am just saying what I think will be so in the future.  I do not mean to say it wil be a wholley positive good or that any steps need to be taken to get there.  Just that it will happen.  Heck people are moving to protect local languages...what are they protecting them from?

Language is the basis of the identity for a nation.  Figure it as an individual.  You are Valmy.  You are not Yi.  You could all be Yi.  We could all be Yi.  Would that make things easier?  Probably?  Would you become Yi voluntarily?  Probably not.  You have had signification interaction with Yi over the years.  Yet you are not moving closer to one another, you have your own differences.

It is the same with a nation.  Each one has their differences, for better or for worst.
The same way you protect your own difference, your own individuality, other people protect their cultural identity.  If you speak French in Flanders, no one will talk to you until you make it clear you are neither French nor Belgian.  They feel threatened by assimilation, by losing their collective identity, wich is also a part of their individuality.

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
Historically, you haven't been able to achieve one people/one language without either of it.

But we are not talking about history.  We are talking about a future with mass media.  The power of the state these days is usually trying to protect languages and cultures from these influences.

Sure in the 19th century it was very unnatural for there to be one language.  But those conditions do not exist anymore.

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
We could all be Yi. 

What's this "could be" noise?

Quote from: Monoriu on August 26, 2011, 02:20:28 AMMy point is, if your Chinese business/government counterparts are already speaking English with you, you don't really need your own Chinese translator.

Occasionally it's useful to be able to understand the local language and culture when doing business.

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM.
Well, humans are what... 10-12 000 years old since the first civilizations?
We certainly have reduced the number of languages & dialects over the years.
But as soon as an empire crumbled, people in the area reverted to their old dialects mixed with the new language.  From German & French emerged English.  From Latin came Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and French (not counting Occitan and Basque language and a few others maybe).

I don't see a unique language for everyone without some kind of coercitive measures.
It is the same with a nation.  Each one has their differences, for better or for worst.
The same way you protect your own difference, your own individuality, other people protect their cultural identity.  If you speak French in Flanders, no one will talk to you until you make it clear you are neither French nor Belgian.  They feel threatened by assimilation, by losing their collective identity, wich is also a part of their individuality.

/nitpicking

Occitan (Langue d'Oc) is actually closer to Latin than Parisian/Langue d'Oïl/Francien i.e all forebears of current Standard French.
As for speaking French in Flanders as a Frenchman, it's possible as long as you're a French tourist wanting to buy a waffle or something.  ;)

Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2011, 11:14:09 AM

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
Historically, you haven't been able to achieve one people/one language without either of it.

But we are not talking about history.  We are talking about a future with mass media.  The power of the state these days is usually trying to protect languages and cultures from these influences.

Sure in the 19th century it was very unnatural for there to be one language.  But those conditions do not exist anymore.

predicting the future without looking at the past is a certain failure.  You have to base your predictions on something.  The past is no future's guarantee, but it gives you an idea about what happenned.  Otherwise, people start predicting flying cars and week-end trips to the moon for the year 2000.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Occitan (Langue d'Oc) is actually closer to Latin than Parisian/Langue d'Oïl/Francien i.e all forebears of current Standard French.

Duly noted, sir!

Quote
As for speaking French in Flanders as a Frenchman, it's possible as long as you're a French tourist wanting to buy a waffle or something.  ;)

Ah ok, it's only for Belgians :)
I remember a newspiece where the reporter had to stress they were Canadians to get the people to speak French.  Otherwise, they spoke only Dutch.  And if a Belgian TV crew approached them, they were switching to Dutch.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 26, 2011, 12:13:00 PM

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
We could all be Yi. 

What's this "could be" noise?

I forgot  :Embarrass: :blush:
We are all Yi.

 :hmm:

http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html

QuoteThe Decline and Fall of the French Language?
by Gary Girod 08/25/2011

It's been indisputable for some time that English is becoming the 'universal language'. As the number of living languages has steadily decreased, the use of English has expanded on every continent. And though English has not — despite predictions — crushed all other languages (German, Russian, and Spanish, to cite the prime examples, all remain strong), one language does seem to be undergoing the predicted cataclysmic collapse. English may not yet have won the globe, but French has definitely lost it.

The reasons for the decline of French are many, including geography. Francophone regions are spread out: think of France, Vietnam, Quebec, and Guadeloupe, to start. Many of these regions are without direct connections to other French-speaking countries. The result is that many of the people choose to abandon French for more useful languages within the region. In contrast, German, Russian and Spanish speakers are based in numerous adjacent countries, each supporting the others.

French has been most visibly hurt in the last few decades in Africa. In North Africa, French has had to compete with Arabic, a language which Arabs are now clinging to as proudly as the French have traditionally clung to French. South of the Sahara, countries which formerly had large French-speaking populations are making the switch to English due to its relevance in Southern Africa, as well as internationally.

In Algeria, after the Algerian War, French was mostly expunged. Its decline has continued, including the recent closure of French schools, as Arabic and English become the standard.

More dramatically, in Zaire, in 1997, fueled by anti-French sentiment, the French language was replaced with native languages. And in nearby Rwanda the president has pushed for the abandonment of French in favor of English. It is questionable whether any Africans will be speaking French in a few decades.

English, meanwhile, is becoming the most important Western language in Africa, replacing both French and Portuguese. An English derivative is the majority language of Sierra Leone, and remains an important language in South Africa, of course, as well as Nigeria, and various other smaller countries.

Former French-speaking colonies beyond Africa have been hostile to the French language. French has been collapsing even faster in Asia than it is in Africa, due to the isolation of French-speaking populations. In Vietnam, students have protested having to learn French, stressing the need to learn English instead. And in the Middle East, the Lebanese have been shucking off French in favor of English.

French has also seen a drastic decline in North America. In the U.S., between 1990 and 1995, college applicants for French class declined by twenty-four percent. In Canada, the number of French students enrolling in English classes is rising rapidly, while the overall percentage of French speakers across Canada is falling.

Across Europe, French has gradually declined from being the lingua franca to falling behind German and English. English is spoken by 41% of Europeans, while only 19% speak French. English is now the language of business in Europe, a fact which even French ambassador for international investment Clara Gaymard was forced to admit. And French has fallen so far behind in Eastern Europe, in particular, that it is the third-most studied language, behind English and Spanish.

While once the language of culture, French has been pushed off the global stage. Perhaps the most symbolic example of this was in 2008 when Sebastian Tiller, the French representative at the Eurovision contest, planned to sing 'Divine' almost exclusively in English. That the French singer did not choose to represent the jealously guarded language of his country internationally came as a shock to many. This cultural decline was mirrored when New York's Metropolitan Opera decided to reject the libretto of the musical star Rufus Wainwright (who was raised in Canada), because he chose not to translate his opera into English.

The calamitous decline in French seems irreversible, even to the French. In 2008, the budget of La Francophonie, the governing body of the French language, was six million euros; in contrast, the British Council announced it would spend 150 million euros in efforts to advance English.

In any Darwinian model, a characteristic can become prominent, or it can be driven out of existence. Use of the French language has been globally dispersed, and French culture is without historical significance in many of its colonies. These are not the characteristics that increase a language's chances of survival.

Why would the British spend money to advance English?  English sells itself.

Mono is just being himself.  There are plenty of advantages available to a foreigner who speaks Mandarin.

Chinese can and does easily add new words too, by the way.  They just do it by combining characters to create a literal meaning or by combining characters to create a phonetic sound.

Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2011, 02:26:37 AM
No. Humans are perfectly capable to learn multiple languages. You can gain all the advantages you name by just teaching everybody English as a second language.

Only in truly bilingual fashion, i.e. from kindergarden or first grade.
As second language it will create a second class citezenry in a truly globalized and/or unified planet.

I say English as a first language for everybody, and your local tribal-speak as a second or bilingual language.


The reality though, is that the old-men-in-power will refuse such a project using the cultural argument as an excuse, because this project will diminish their power, and will make them accountable at a larger scale, removing their acomodation to power in their local banana republics.

There is also the issue of learning new skills, something the old-men-in-power are allergic to.
There is a reason why we still use QWERTY as oppoussed to a more effective keyboard layout.

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
  If you speak French in Flanders, no one will talk to you until you make it clear you are neither French nor Belgian.  They feel threatened by assimilation, by losing their collective identity, wich is also a part of their individuality.

dude, if you speak french in flanders we'll speak french back, if you're walloon or Bruxellois you might "that look"* though. If you speak broken dutch in flanders we'll applaud you for your effort and switch the french too (unless you're a walloon politician, in which case you might rotten veggies thrown after you :p). And we're less afraid of the assimilation as that we're totally fed up with the francophone arrogance, quasi-communist profitariate and truly pre-war francophone territorial ambitions (including corridors. They're not living in fucking Danzig!). But problems with speaking french as such? I don't think so.

*"that look" meaning you dirty racist francophone, or a variant on it

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Occitan (Langue d'Oc) is actually closer to Latin than Parisian/Langue d'Oïl/Francien i.e all forebears of current Standard French.

Duly noted, sir!

Quote
As for speaking French in Flanders as a Frenchman, it's possible as long as you're a French tourist wanting to buy a waffle or something.  ;)

Ah ok, it's only for Belgians :)
I remember a newspiece where the reporter had to stress they were Canadians to get the people to speak French.  Otherwise, they spoke only Dutch.  And if a Belgian TV crew approached them, they were switching to Dutch.

probably a walloon/Bruxellois? they lie when it comes to Flanders. Or rather: they project their own pathologies on the flemish as if we'd just be like them. We're better though as we haven't taken away a single right of the francophones. Unlike what they did (and do still). Just search for the term "Nolsloketten" (Nols being an FDF-mayor in Brussels a few decades ago -but the mentaily is still very much alive- and "loketten" being counters like in the post-office or so)

Quote from: Neil on August 26, 2011, 09:16:20 PM
Why would the British spend money to advance English?  English sells itself.

Yeah, that seems puzzling.

The French should be killed.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on August 27, 2011, 02:21:37 AM
Mono is just being himself.  There are plenty of advantages available to a foreigner who speaks Mandarin.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine recently. He told me that in his field (engineering) lots of companies with projects in China are demanding candidates to be able to speak Chinese because they've had bad experiences with local contractors and partners and don't want to be at their mercy.

Quote from: The Larch on August 29, 2011, 07:56:34 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on August 27, 2011, 02:21:37 AM
Mono is just being himself.  There are plenty of advantages available to a foreigner who speaks Mandarin.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine recently. He told me that in his field (engineering) lots of companies with projects in China are demanding candidates to be able to speak Chinese because they've had bad experiences with local contractors and partners and don't want to be at their mercy.

Easier solution is not to do business with kleptocrats.

Quote from: Ideologue on August 29, 2011, 08:03:03 AM

Quote from: The Larch on August 29, 2011, 07:56:34 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on August 27, 2011, 02:21:37 AM
Mono is just being himself.  There are plenty of advantages available to a foreigner who speaks Mandarin.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine recently. He told me that in his field (engineering) lots of companies with projects in China are demanding candidates to be able to speak Chinese because they've had bad experiences with local contractors and partners and don't want to be at their mercy.

Easier solution is not to do business with kleptocrats.

Easier said than done, I guess.

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Occitan (Langue d'Oc) is actually closer to Latin than Parisian/Langue d'Oïl/Francien i.e all forebears of current Standard French.

Duly noted, sir!

Quote
As for speaking French in Flanders as a Frenchman, it's possible as long as you're a French tourist wanting to buy a waffle or something.  ;)

Ah ok, it's only for Belgians :)
I remember a newspiece where the reporter had to stress they were Canadians to get the people to speak French.  Otherwise, they spoke only Dutch.  And if a Belgian TV crew approached them, they were switching to Dutch.

I call BS. Most Flemings will be happy to talk to you in another language, be it English, French, German or any other language they happen to know. There are of course people in Flanders who don't know how to speak French and there is perhaps a minority who refuse to speak French, but in general Flemings are helpful even to French-speaking people.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
:hmm:

http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html

QuoteThe Decline and Fall of the French Language?
by Gary Girod 08/25/2011

Not at all surprising that aspiring states would try to speak the language of global capital or that aspiring Eurovision singers would want to sing the language of global capital.

But the French language has already carved out a legacy that will never be forgotten.  The language of the neoliberal values that the Anglosphere impresses upon the world is derived straight from the 18th century French, and one might venture say that the global language is English with a distinctly French accent...

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 28, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
probably a walloon/Bruxellois? they lie when it comes to Flanders. Or rather: they project their own pathologies on the flemish as if we'd just be like them. We're better though as we haven't taken away a single right of the francophones. Unlike what they did (and do still). Just search for the term "Nolsloketten" (Nols being an FDF-mayor in Brussels a few decades ago -but the mentaily is still very much alive- and "loketten" being counters like in the post-office or so)

I'm not goint to discuss Belgian politics, it tends to end badly with both sides hating me :P

Quote from: BVN on August 29, 2011, 08:09:56 AM

Quote from: viper37 on August 26, 2011, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 26, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Occitan (Langue d'Oc) is actually closer to Latin than Parisian/Langue d'Oïl/Francien i.e all forebears of current Standard French.

Duly noted, sir!

Quote
As for speaking French in Flanders as a Frenchman, it's possible as long as you're a French tourist wanting to buy a waffle or something.  ;)

Ah ok, it's only for Belgians :)
I remember a newspiece where the reporter had to stress they were Canadians to get the people to speak French.  Otherwise, they spoke only Dutch.  And if a Belgian TV crew approached them, they were switching to Dutch.

I call BS. Most Flemings will be happy to talk to you in another language, be it English, French, German or any other language they happen to know. There are of course people in Flanders who don't know how to speak French and there is perhaps a minority who refuse to speak French, but in general Flemings are helpful even to French-speaking people.

can't say I had problems myself, but that was in 1990.  And we didn't go that deep in Flanders (Ghent was the fartherst North, IIRC).  I just heard Flemings were a tad annoyed at French speakers with the recent political events.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
:hmm:

http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html (http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html)

There's a huge, renewed interest for French in Vermont.  It helps them to cope with the bad US economy by being nice to Quebec's tourists.
Prediction from the Organisation Internationale de la Francophonie, talksof going from 200 millions speakers to 500 millions by 2050.
Certainly, French is not as popular as it was.  English is the dominant language for now, no doubt about it.  But it's still far from a dying language.

Quote from: viper37 on August 29, 2011, 03:45:11 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 26, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
:hmm:

http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html (http://www.realclearworld.com/2011/08/26/decline_and_fall_of_the_french_language_127031.html)

There's a huge, renewed interest for French in Vermont.  It helps them to cope with the bad US economy by being nice to Quebec's tourists.
Prediction from the Organisation Internationale de la Francophonie, talksof going from 200 millions speakers to 500 millions by 2050.
Certainly, French is not as popular as it was.  English is the dominant language for now, no doubt about it.  But it's still far from a dying language.

The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

Talking to non-native English speakers is so fucking boring. You have to shelve your jokes and clever references.

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

So French is successful because West Africans have lots of babies?  :hmm:

If there was only one language in the world, Timmay would still be there, fucking it all up.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 29, 2011, 05:41:03 PM

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

So French is successful because West Africans have lots of babies?  :hmm:

No, French is successful because it is spoken in France, which is one of the major industrialized economies.  I couldn't care less how many mudpeople in Africa speak the language, or even about an isolated, semi-assimilated pocket of francophones in North America.  France alone is enough, just as Germany and Austria alone is enough for German.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 29, 2011, 06:57:20 PM
If there was only one language in the world, Timmay would still be there, fucking it all up.

SACKRE BLUE!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 29, 2011, 07:17:55 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 29, 2011, 06:57:20 PM
If there was only one language in the world, Timmay would still be there, fucking it all up.

SACKRE BLUE!!!!!!!!!!

JACK CUSE!  ABSOLUMENT EPOUVANTABLE!!!!!1111uneune

9 out of 10 mimes like this thread.

I think Hebrew should be the only language in the world.
After all, it is the language that started it all.

YHWH is dead and Nietzsche killed him so maybe we should be speaking German.  :hmm:

Quote from: Siege on August 29, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
I think Hebrew should be the only language in the world.
After all, it is the language that started it all.

I don't think that's correct.

Besides, Hebrew is a barbarous tongue, spoken by barbarians.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 29, 2011, 05:41:03 PM

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

So French is successful because West Africans have lots of babies?  :hmm:

Yes?

Quote from: Siege on August 29, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
I think Hebrew should be the only language in the world.
After all, it is the language that started it all.

Do you actually believe this?  We have records of languages that existed two thousand years before Hebrew. 

Quote from: Queequeg on August 29, 2011, 10:09:41 PM

Quote from: Siege on August 29, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
I think Hebrew should be the only language in the world.
After all, it is the language that started it all.

Do you actually believe this?  We have records of languages that existed two thousand years before Hebrew. 

The man thinks that Hannah Montana is a documentary, so take a guess.

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 09:54:20 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 29, 2011, 05:41:03 PM

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

So French is successful because West Africans have lots of babies?  :hmm:

Yes?

That's not true at all.  The number of barbarian speakers of a language is irrelevant.

Quote from: Neil on August 29, 2011, 10:17:47 PM

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 09:54:20 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 29, 2011, 05:41:03 PM

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
The number of francophones worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies french as "declining and falling". I guess journalists need to write copy and make pay *shrugs*

So French is successful because West Africans have lots of babies?  :hmm:

Yes?

That's not true at all.  The number of barbarian speakers of a language is irrelevant.

Well. Yes. But we were talking about actual number of people speaking the language.

Quote from: Zoupa on August 29, 2011, 10:23:17 PM
Well. Yes. But we were talking about actual number of people speaking the language.

OK.  How about if we were to deny the personhood of third worlders?

Quote from: Siege on August 29, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
I think Hebrew should be the only language in the world.
After all, it is the language that started it all.

You'd be surprised to know that all Afro-Asiatic languages (which includes Hebrew, and Arabic), probably came from Somalia.