http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/#!/guide/appendix/westeros-through-the-ages/
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/#!/map/
Pretty neat. I like the map.
Quote from: JonasSalk on July 05, 2011, 02:02:28 PM
Pretty neat. I like the map.
Has that ever been said on Languish before? :huh:
Languish first! I break the glass ceiling yet again!
Nice. They have CoA's for a lot of the minor houses in there, even ones not shown on the series so far.
So, who gave the knife to the assassin that instead of putting Bran out of his misery after falling, managed to get himself killed by Summer?
When Catelyn asked Jaime, he said he was sure it was not Tyrion or Cersei.
He also said he remember the knife passing hands from Tyrion to Robert himself, after Jaime was dismounted by Loras at some Tourney.
Does this means Robert send the assassin to kill Bran?????!!!!!!!!
The assumption have always been Robert didn't know about Cerseis infidelity, and he would put her to sword if he knew.
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 06:17:14 PM
So, who gave the knife to the assassin that instead of putting Bran out of his misery after falling, managed to get himself killed by Summer?
When Catelyn asked Jaime, he said he was sure it was not Tyrion or Cersei.
He also said he remember the knife passing hands from Tyrion to Robert himself, after Jaime was dismounted by Loras at some Tourney.
Does this means Robert send the assassin to kill Bran?????!!!!!!!!
The assumption have always been Robert didn't know about Cerseis infidelity, and he would put her to sword if he knew.
Do you really want this spoiled? Because the person responsible was also responsible for the death of several other major characters.
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 06:17:14 PM
So, who gave the knife to the assassin that instead of putting Bran out of his misery after falling, managed to get himself killed by Summer?
When Catelyn asked Jaime, he said he was sure it was not Tyrion or Cersei.
He also said he remember the knife passing hands from Tyrion to Robert himself, after Jaime was dismounted by Loras at some Tourney.
Does this means Robert send the assassin to kill Bran?????!!!!!!!!
The assumption have always been Robert didn't know about Cerseis infidelity, and he would put her to sword if he knew.
I thought you read the books?
Though I'll understand if you forget, we learn who did it way after it's plot relevant and it's kind of an anticlimactic revelation.
Shame its all so basic, just rough information about the main places. But expected from the TV show rather than book fans.
I never did get why a town didn't develop at the inn at the crossroads.
That would be a perfect place for any lord with half a brain to try and develop a nice trading city....
Quote from: grumbler on July 07, 2011, 06:21:19 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 06:17:14 PM
So, who gave the knife to the assassin that instead of putting Bran out of his misery after falling, managed to get himself killed by Summer?
When Catelyn asked Jaime, he said he was sure it was not Tyrion or Cersei.
He also said he remember the knife passing hands from Tyrion to Robert himself, after Jaime was dismounted by Loras at some Tourney.
Does this means Robert send the assassin to kill Bran?????!!!!!!!!
The assumption have always been Robert didn't know about Cerseis infidelity, and he would put her to sword if he knew.
Do you really want this spoiled? Because the person responsible was also responsible for the death of several other major characters.
Ok, who did it?
I read the books a long time ago and I don't remember.
Cersei, right?
Quote from: Tyr on July 07, 2011, 07:24:31 PM
Shame its all so basic, just rough information about the main places. But expected from the TV show rather than book fans.
I never did get why a town didn't develop at the inn at the crossroads.
That would be a perfect place for any lord with half a brain to try and develop a nice trading city....
Yeah. GRR Martin drops the ball far to frequently.
Like why wouldn't Theon kill the Summer and Shaggydog after he took Winterfell.
They were nicely locked. A couple archers from the walls and bye bye.
It's the character who normally does stupid and evil things without much of a motive. I suppose he character is supposed to be a sociopath.
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 10:06:04 PM
Yeah. GRR Martin drops the ball far to frequently.
Like why wouldn't Theon kill the Summer and Shaggydog after he took Winterfell.
They were nicely locked. A couple archers from the walls and bye bye.
:huh: Why not put everyone to the sword after taking it, by that logic?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 07, 2011, 10:11:42 PM
It's the character who normally does stupid and evil things without much of a motive. I suppose he character is supposed to be a sociopath.
Cersei, right?
No, it was Stannis.
Or maybe it was Renly. I forget.
Ok, I googled it.
5.1. Who tried to kill Bran?
Evidence revealed in A Storm of Swords points squarely at Joffrey as the instigator. At the queen's breakfast he revealed, "... I am no stranger to Valyrian steel." (III: 663) Tyrion, suspicious of that statement, suggests that he will give a Valyrian steel dagger with a dragonbone hilt as a gift to Joffrey. Joffrey's reply is awkward: "Joff gave him a sharp look. 'You ... yes, a dagger to match my sword, good.' He nodded. 'A ... a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain.'" (III: 664) Finally, Jaime questions Cersei about the attempt on Bran. She reveals that Robert said in Joffrey's hearing that it'd be a kindness to end the boy's misery, but that they were all too weak. Jaime concludes that Joffrey, eager for his father's attention, may have decided to prove that he was capable of doing it (III: 823).
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
Though I'll understand if you forget, we learn who did it way after it's plot relevant and it's kind of an anticlimactic revelation. we
... have said too much? :ph34r:
Why are there two Game of Thrones threads?
I didn't even realize I had posted here.
Merge them or kill one.
I want to see people crying!
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 10:01:23 PM
Ok, who did it?
The Bran assassination attempt is a McGuffin. It exists to give a plot reason for Catelyn to leave Winterfell and then later to capture Tyrion and hoof it to the Eyrie.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 08, 2011, 03:50:20 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 10:01:23 PM
Ok, who did it?
The Bran assassination attempt is a McGuffin. It exists to give a plot reason for Catelyn to leave Winterfell and then later to capture Tyrion and hoof it to the Eyrie.
Interesting in interviews GRRM remarks how originally he had planned to have Cat remain in Winterfell but when writing the chapter he felt it made no sense for her to stay put given what had happened. Perhaps originally the plan was for the Starks were going to capture Tyrion on his way back from the Wall.
So if it was a McGuffin it was not originally concieved to get Cat to leave Winterfell.
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 03:56:09 PM
Interesting in interviews GRRM remarks how originally he had planned to have Cat remain in Winterfell but when writing the chapter he felt it made no sense for her to stay put given what had happened. Perhaps originally the plan was for the Starks were going to capture Tyrion on his way back from the Wall.
So if it was a McGuffin it was not originally concieved to get Cat to leave Winterfell.
Maybe so but that doesn't make a lot of sense.
If the intent was for her to be a viewpoint character, it isn't very useful for her to stick around in Winterfell. She does quite a bit of work for Martin -- bringing Littlefinger more into the picture, the "arrest" of Tyrion (which also introduces the Freys and the tavern by the river), introducing the Eyrie and that entire part of the plot, the meeting with Renly, Brienne, etc. She is the medium for introducing a huge amount of material in terms of characters, places, and plot concepts and the only way for that to happen is for her to be mobile.
But with Bran injured, how to explain what could possibly make her leave? The only believable thing is an even greater threat to Bran that requires her to leave Winterfell to counter. Hence the need to concoct an assassination plot which has no other purpose other than as a side point to highten tension between Tyrion and Joffrey (and it certainly wasn't necessary for that end).
I had thought Littlefinger had confessed that he was the one who gave the idea to Joffrey, but I appear to have misremembered.
Not that I don't think he was the one behind it, mind! :lol:
I'm pretty sure Littlefinger wasn't present at the time.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 08, 2011, 06:12:13 PM
I'm pretty sure Littlefinger wasn't present at the time.
If the assassin was sent before the entourage arrived back in King's Landing, then my supposition is obviously in error. I don't have a good feel for the time between the departure of King Robert (and Joffrey) and the attempt on Bran. It's been too long since I read that book.
I'm pretty sure it happens whilst they're still en route, Joffrey over hears Robert saying someone should just put the boy out of his misery, takes him super literally and in a sort of misguided effort to please his dad sends the assassin.
Though that particular knife was a bit too convenient to use...could have had something more to it. Been a while since I read it too.
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 07:03:18 PM
I'm pretty sure it happens whilst they're still en route, Joffrey over hears Robert saying someone should just put the boy out of his misery, takes him super literally and in a sort of misguided effort to please his dad sends the assassin.
Though that particular knife was a bit too convenient to use...could have had something more to it. Been a while since I read it too.
If it was all Joffrey's idea then the knife was inexplicable. Why would Joffrey give a cutthroat a knife, unless told to do so?
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 07:03:18 PM
I'm pretty sure it happens whilst they're still en route, Joffrey over hears Robert saying someone should just put the boy out of his misery, takes him super literally and in a sort of misguided effort to please his dad sends the assassin.
Though that particular knife was a bit too convenient to use...could have had something more to it. Been a while since I read it too.
If it was all Joffrey's idea then the knife was inexplicable. Why would Joffrey give a cutthroat a knife, unless told to do so?
Because Joffrey isn't too bright.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:20:42 PM
If it was all Joffrey's idea then the knife was inexplicable. Why would Joffrey give a cutthroat a knife, unless told to do so?
As ways to kill go a knife is rather good.
And I suppose Joff could have spotted this one was particularly good and sharp.
But sitll, it does seem an amazing coincidence that this particular knife with its trouble making history would be the one he would choose. Maybe it was the only Valryian steel knife Robert had...but then if its so valuable its strange they talk of it like a trinket.
Well, the idea that anyone would need to give an assasin a knife is kind of weird. Presumably they would have one of their own - knives not being all that hard to come by...but giving them such a noticeable and valuable knife means it needs some kind of explanation that involves someone doing something either very stupid or somewhat clever. Somewhat clever was eliminated, and that left pretty stupid.
Which leaves Joffrey.
The reality is that the knife was needed to set Catelyn on Tyrion, and I don't think George really thought it through all that much, which is unusual for him.
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 07:44:07 PM
As ways to kill go a knife is rather good.
And I suppose Joff could have spotted this one was particularly good and sharp.
But sitll, it does seem an amazing coincidence that this particular knife with its trouble making history would be the one he would choose. Maybe it was the only Valryian steel knife Robert had...but then if its so valuable its strange they talk of it like a trinket.
A cutthroat would already have a knife, no? I mean, how does one become a cutthroat without one?
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 07:48:26 PM
Well, the idea that anyone would need to give an assasin a knife is kind of weird. Presumably they would have one of their own - knives not being all that hard to come by...but giving them such a noticeable and valuable knife means it needs some kind of explanation that involves someone doing something either very stupid or somewhat clever. Somewhat clever was eliminated, and that left pretty stupid.
Which leaves Joffrey.
The reality is that the knife was needed to set Catelyn on Tyrion, and I don't think George really thought it through all that much, which is unusual for him.
Unless Littlefinger set it up, as I have noted. I have no evidence, of course, and if anyone can point out evidence that the assassin must have been launched before Littlefinger could access Joffrey to suggest this, my theory goes up in smoke.
Still, if one looks to see who gained from the attempt on Bran's life, one name stands out.
Qui bono, anyone?
The attempt to assasinate Bran happened 8 days after the Kings party left Winterfell.
And the kings party left Winterfell "close on a fortnight" after the fall. So I don't think there would be any way Littlefinger could be involved.
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2011, 06:17:14 PM
So, who gave the knife to the assassin that instead of putting Bran out of his misery after falling, managed to get himself killed by Summer?
When Catelyn asked Jaime, he said he was sure it was not Tyrion or Cersei.
He also said he remember the knife passing hands from Tyrion to Robert himself, after Jaime was dismounted by Loras at some Tourney.
Does this means Robert send the assassin to kill Bran?????!!!!!!!!
The assumption have always been Robert didn't know about Cerseis infidelity, and he would put her to sword if he knew.
Look at all the characters of the series. Find one you'd describe as a snake. A guy who's always one step before everyone in his plots, wich is quite something in a kingdom where plotting against each another is the norm.
That's the man you're looking for.
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 10:14:50 PM
No, it was Stannis.
funny, I would have tought Little Finger was the instigator of the plot, or the idea behind it. That's his style.
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2011, 11:29:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 10:14:50 PM
No, it was Stannis.
funny, I would have tought Little Finger was the instigator of the plot, or the idea behind it. That's his style.
Definitely, but it simply doesn't work. He had no way of setting it up, he was back in Kings Landing.
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 11:41:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2011, 11:29:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 10:14:50 PM
No, it was Stannis.
funny, I would have tought Little Finger was the instigator of the plot, or the idea behind it. That's his style.
Definitely, but it simply doesn't work. He had no way of setting it up, he was back in Kings Landing.
Indeed, which is why it was Stannis. Or maybe Brienne, I forget.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 09:33:25 PM
A cutthroat would already have a knife, no? I mean, how does one become a cutthroat without one?
With a sword or a saw perhaps. Though the knife is certainly more convenient. :homestar:
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 10:53:44 PM
And the kings party left Winterfell "close on a fortnight" after the fall. So I don't think there would be any way Littlefinger could be involved.
This. Also, I'm pretty sure the guy wasn't a legit killer either, just one of the king's party that Joffrey hired to do the task. He might have given the blade because A) The guy didn't have one of his own and B) Because if it went off successfully, he could have used it as proof that it was him that sent the guy to fulfill his "dad's" comment and look good in his eyes.
The "Littlefinger" back in King's Landing was just a cunning papier-mache ruse.
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 10:53:44 PM
And the kings party left Winterfell "close on a fortnight" after the fall. So I don't think there would be any way Littlefinger could be involved.
I haven't read the books, but is there any particular reason people seem to be considering the assassination attempt as a "spur of the moment" thing rather than a plot laid weeks or months in advance?
Using a distinctive knife normally only makes sense if someone who will be present at the attempt is supposed to believe something (either correctly or incorrectly) due to its' presence. It's a message.
And to me, being several days travel away from the scene of a crime seems like an excellent move for any serious conspirator to make if he's after a long term rather than immediate goal.
Why would anyone plan on killing Bran weeks or months in advance?
Because Little Finger is so damn crafty, he planned for Bran to climb the ruined tower and catch Cersei and Jamie in action and the subsequent tossing out the window of Bran. He planted the idea for Cersei and Jamie to hide out there to escape Robert's notice via subliminal implanting and then took the form of one of the crows due to his warg nature to push Bran toward that exact window. He pulled a Varys and disguised himself so that no one would notice him being present during the entire trip other than briefly appearing as himself to plant the idea in Joffrey's head to hire someone to off Bran with the knife he provided. He's just that damn good. Bow before Little Finger.
Why is he called Littlefinger anyway? Is it from how he drinks his wine? :hmm:
It's an Indian name.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 09, 2011, 02:29:44 PM
Why is he called Littlefinger anyway? Is it from how he drinks his wine? :hmm:
His family lands are on the smallest of a bunch of rocks called the fingers.
And he was always small, hence "Little+Finger"
And his finger is very little.
Quote from: Solmyr on July 10, 2011, 05:50:07 AM
And his finger is very little.
My finger is very large.
Can I be called Largefinger?
How about Massivefinger, or Humongousfinger?
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2011, 02:05:48 PM
My finger is very large.
Can I be called Largefinger?
How about Massivefinger, or Humongousfinger?
Arsenio maybe.
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2011, 02:05:48 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 10, 2011, 05:50:07 AM
And his finger is very little.
My finger is very large.
Can I be called Largefinger?
How about Massivefinger, or Humongousfinger?
You're not from the fingers... so.. No.
You are a lightweight however, so you can be called Lightweight.
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 10:53:44 PM
And the kings party left Winterfell "close on a fortnight" after the fall. So I don't think there would be any way Littlefinger could be involved.
Everyone uses Ravens to communicate. It would have been a simple thing for one of Littlefinger's spies to report back what had happened and for LF to create some scheme. The knife can be explained by LF knowing it is with the travelling party and he could have planted the suggestion to use it.
I figured LF just took the opportunity of Cat's visit to improvise given the information provided and had nothing to do with the original assasination at all. He is a master at causing chaos for its own sake and then taking advantage of said chaos.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2011, 02:44:23 PM
I figured LF just took the opportunity of Cat's visit to improvise given the information provided and had nothing to do with the original assasination at all. He is a master at causing chaos for its own sake and then taking advantage of said chaos.
Also plausable.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2011, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 10:53:44 PM
And the kings party left Winterfell "close on a fortnight" after the fall. So I don't think there would be any way Littlefinger could be involved.
Everyone uses Ravens to communicate. It would have been a simple thing for one of Littlefinger's spies to report back what had happened and for LF to create some scheme. The knife can be explained by LF knowing it is with the travelling party and he could have planted the suggestion to use it.
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?
LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".
Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2011, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2011, 02:44:23 PM
I figured LF just took the opportunity of Cat's visit to improvise given the information provided and had nothing to do with the original assasination at all. He is a master at causing chaos for its own sake and then taking advantage of said chaos.
Also plausable.
Very plausible, and has the added benefit of being supported by the actual text of the books. At no point has Littlefinger ever hinted or implied (or anyone else) that he has anything to do with the attempt on Bran. To the extent that he is able to exploit that attempt when the opportunity rises he does so - but to suggest that he created the attempt in order to have the chance to exploit it later makes no real sense. How could he have known that Catelyn would come to Kings Landing and ask him about the knife before she did so?
He has neither the means, the opportunity, or even the motive (at least he would have no motive on the basis of what he would have known from a report from Winterfell that one of the Stark kids was in an accident and was likely to die as a result).
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy.
Your lack of imagination is disturbing as well as your assumption that the Little
finger charcter would be so obtuse as to spell it all out by return raven in a manner easily understood should the Raven be intercepted in some way.
Ravens are the manner in which information is transmitted in the book. You have to discount that fact in order to make your denial plausable. I prefer to speculate within the confirms of the book rather than create other realities.
Littlefinger probably has his own communication system based on pigeons, which is a lot faster.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2011, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy.
Your lack of imagination is disturbing as well as your assumption that the Little
finger charcter would be so obtuse as to spell it all out by return raven in a manner easily understood should the Raven be intercepted in some way.
So he has a means of spelling out what he wants in a manner that is clear enough to trigger an attempt to assassinate a kid on almost no information, but impossible for anyone to figure out who is not the person it is intended for? Is Littlefinger the NSA? He isn't some kind of super-villain.
I think it takes a serious lack of imagination to just assume that anything bad that happens without clear explanation must have been done by Littlefinger.
Quote
Ravens are the manner in which information is transmitted in the book.
One of many means, and a decidedly less than secure means, as is pointed out in the book many, many times. It is the reason people often actually travel about in person in fact.
Quote
You have to discount that fact in order to make your denial plausable.
Uhhh, I think I showed a variety of reason why it is not plausible, the raven commo problem just being one of them (and the security issue only part of that problem).
Quote
I prefer to speculate within the confirms of the book rather than create other realities.
Speculating that Littlefinger had anything to do with an assassination attempt on Bran is most certainly NOT within the confines of the reality of the book. There simply is not enough time, not enough information, and no motive for him to try to have Bran killed, as I have graciously explained rather thoroughly. It is an interesting idle speculation that does not hold up to the facts or the world.
Quote from: The Brain on July 11, 2011, 04:14:51 PM
Littlefinger probably has his own communication system based on pigeons, which is a lot faster.
I think for some people Littlefinger has just become the super-villain with almost magical powers to create chaos. Anything bad that happens must be super Littlefinger!
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cartoonstock.com%2Fnewscartoons%2Fcartoonists%2Fpja%2Flowres%2Fpjan157l.jpg&hash=db94c382cb6d45a21b3485305fdb7d3430ba7fa7)
Berkut, I have no idea why you insist on saying LF had no information. He is amongst the best informed people in the books - perhaps the best. To suggest that he paid no attention to the goings on of the Kings progress to Winterfell and back is nonsense.
I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.
1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).
2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.
No way it was Littlefinger.
I'll go with Joffrey before blaming LF.
Cersei or Joffrey. Not Tyrion or Jaime.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2011, 04:32:29 PM
Berkut, I have no idea why you insist on saying LF had no information. He is amongst the best informed people in the books - perhaps the best. To suggest that he paid no attention to the goings on of the Kings progress to Winterfell and back is nonsense.
Actually, to suggest that would be a strawman, not nonsense. I never claimed Baelish was not well informed, I said he would have little information that would lead him to decide that killing Bran would be useful. If you disagree with this, please enlighten me - how is killing Bran going to result in furthering Baelish's goals based on the information that Baelish would have via raven that Bran had an accident. and was likely to die?
The information about Brans fall has to get to Kings Landing somehow. No matter how well informed Baelish is, there is no suggestion that he has magical forms of information such that he can know that Bran was pushed, and that if someone tries to kill him, it will end up pointing at the Lannisters somehow.
So how would he find out about Brans fall? By raven is the fastest way, and even that would take days at best. And provide very limited information - just that a member of the Stark family had an accident. Why would it include anything else?
And tell me how that information would lead Baelish to decide that the thing to do would be to kill this boy he has never met, for a purpose that is at that point unknown, since as far as anyone other than Cersei and Jaime knows, Brans accident was nothing but an accident. So why kill him? How does that serve any purpose of Baelish?
You claim that it is some generic desire to sow chaos - but how does killing Bran do that better than killing, say, Rickon? Or Theon? Or Tommin? Or <pick random largely unimportant noble>? Why Bran? His accident means nothing to everyone but the three people who say what was happening in that tower. To everyone else it is just an accident.
And to Petyr Baelish it is less than that - it is just some random news. Ned Starks son has had an accident in Winterfell, fell while climbing, and is likely to die. Tell me how he goes from THAT information to "Hey, I should have someone try to kill him! ... Profit!"
Quote from: Viking on July 11, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.
1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).
His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.
Quote
2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.
Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.
I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?
As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.
I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2011, 02:05:48 PM
My finger is very large.
Can I be called Largefinger?
How about Massivefinger, or Humongousfinger?
The finger thing has been done. We'll call you Needledick.
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?
LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".
Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?
If LF couldn't talk to Joffrey himself, he wouldn't try anything like this. As you note, too many things could go wrong and his secret is that he is secretive.
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 11, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.
1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).
His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.
Yet, at no other time is Joffrey quoted or seen having any concern about his father. The case for pleasing his father is all made by Lannisters who are certain that one of them sent the assassin but don't know which one and have ruled out all of the usual suspects.
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
Quote
2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.
Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.
I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?
As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.
I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.
He doesn't lie his ass off with regards to micah. We don't know what he said in the book, but what Joffrey said in the TV show was actually all true (selective and subjective truth). If anything the Ruby Ford scenes show that Joffrey is not organized enough to organize a murder, if he was he would have had sansa and/or arya murdered as well rather than just run crying to mommy about how the nasty wolf bit him.
Quote from: Viking on July 11, 2011, 11:21:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 11, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.
1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).
His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.
Yet, at no other time is Joffrey quoted or seen having any concern about his father.
True, but not really compelling. He does mention his father with pride on several occasions actually, as in "My dad killed Rhaegar, he was a bad ass" kind of stuff, but no real evidence of affection.
It is a minor point against at best though. Just because he doesn't go on about how much he loved his dad doesn't mean he did not care at all about him. Joffrey is a pretty broken kid.
Quote
The case for pleasing his father is all made by Lannisters who are certain that one of them sent the assassin but don't know which one and have ruled out all of the usual suspects.
It is a pretty decent case. If you eliminate the possibilities, whoever is left, no matter how unlikely, is a pretty good suspect.
Quote
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
Quote
2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.
Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.
I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?
As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.
I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.
He doesn't lie his ass off with regards to micah. We don't know what he said in the book, but what Joffrey said in the TV show was actually all true (selective and subjective truth).
Oh he lies his ass off. And the ability to "selectively tell the truth" is greater evidence of his ability to be deceitful, not less. Arguing that Joffrey would not lie about killing someone and using as evidence his not telling the complete truth doesn't really work.
Quote
If anything the Ruby Ford scenes show that Joffrey is not organized enough to organize a murder, if he was he would have had sansa and/or arya murdered as well rather than just run crying to mommy about how the nasty wolf bit him.
He didn't have the chance in that case though. You doubt that he would not have killed Arya if he thought he could get away with it???
Quote from: grumbler on July 11, 2011, 11:11:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?
LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".
Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?
If LF couldn't talk to Joffrey himself, he wouldn't try anything like this. As you note, too many things could go wrong and his secret is that he is secretive.
Yeah, this originally came up in a manner that actually made sense. If LF could talk to Joffrey, then it makes some sense - you can see how having Joffrey try to kill a STark kid could help out Baelish, whether it works or not.
Of course, the timing of that simply doesn't work.
Why people then want to turn around and drop that idea, and just presume that Baelish tries to have Bran killed himself makes no sense. Even ignoring the timing of it, the security of it, and the logistical problems, there just isn't any *reason* for Baelish to want Bran dead.
There is a reason why Baelish would want Joffrey to try to kill Bran. There is no reason for Baelish to want to kill Bran himself, or order Bran to be killed himself.
While we're at it, I bet Littlefinger made Aerys go mad, put Tywin up to betraying Aerys, helped the Gregor Clegane rape and murder Rhaegar's wife, convinced Balon Greyjoy to attack the north, made Jorah inform on Danyrs, told Bronn to aid Tyrion in the Eyrie, suggested that Theon use the baker's kids as substitute Bran and Rickon, stirred The Others from their slumber, and told Drogo to take off the Mirri Maz Duhr's poultices. Damn that Littlefinger! He's... oh my Hod... I've got it! He's the human manifestation of the God of Night that is locked in eternal combat with R'hallor!! :yeah:
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 11, 2011, 11:58:31 PM
While we're at it, I bet Littlefinger made Aerys go mad, put Tywin up to betraying Aerys, helped the Gregor Clegane rape and murder Rhaegar's wife, convinced Balon Greyjoy to attack the north, made Jorah inform on Danyrs, told Bronn to aid Tyrion in the Eyrie, suggested that Theon use the baker's kids as substitute Bran and Rickon, stirred The Others from their slumber, and told Drogo to take off the Mirri Maz Duhr's poultices. Damn that Littlefinger! He's... oh my Hod... I've got it! He's the human manifestation of the God of Night that is locked in eternal combat with R'hallor!! :yeah:
:P
The night is dark, and filled with Littlefingers! :ph34r:
Considering the "assassin" was a complete moron, it makes little sense that Littlefinger would employ him, and much more sense that Joffrey just shoved a dagger and a bag of silver into some random guy's hands and sent him on his way.
Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt the assasination was directly ordered by Joffrey.
As I said (did I? or was that just on the execution?) the only room for Littlefinger being involved would be him prodding Joffrey, saying his dad doesn't like him very much and he needs to prove himself to be a better son so Robert will pay attention,etc...
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
There is a reason why Baelish would want Joffrey to try to kill Bran.
Agreed. As it was in his interests to have Joffrey kill Ned, and then to poison Joffrey to make sure that little discussion never came into the open. Of course, he would have had Joffrey killed anyway, but I am sure Baelish appreciate the economy of assassinating someone he had to murder in any case.
You people lack imagination, clearly.
Baelish probably sent Joffrey a personal and secret invisible raven with a coded message that only Joffrey would be able to understand along with the dagger (it was an African raven, of course, so could easily carry the dagger) and had him try to kill Bran.
You all seem to be discounting the possibility that it was remote mind control and Joffrey was never involved at all.
Reverse-warg?
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 11, 2011, 11:11:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?
LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".
Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?
If LF couldn't talk to Joffrey himself, he wouldn't try anything like this. As you note, too many things could go wrong and his secret is that he is secretive.
Yeah, this originally came up in a manner that actually made sense. If LF could talk to Joffrey, then it makes some sense - you can see how having Joffrey try to kill a STark kid could help out Baelish, whether it works or not.
Of course, the timing of that simply doesn't work.
Why people then want to turn around and drop that idea, and just presume that Baelish tries to have Bran killed himself makes no sense. Even ignoring the timing of it, the security of it, and the logistical problems, there just isn't any *reason* for Baelish to want Bran dead.
There is a reason why Baelish would want Joffrey to try to kill Bran. There is no reason for Baelish to want to kill Bran himself, or order Bran to be killed himself.
I ruled out Jaime because he wouldn't frame his brother. His father would, but like LF he wasn't there. And like you I think it's hard to plot the assassination attempt with your (former?) dagger while being in King's Landing. Was it not for the dagger, he could have done it, upon being informed, he probably would have spies in the King's camp, and it's just a matter of paying someone to do it. But the dagger makes it impossible.
I rulet out Cersei because she seemed a bit shocked at her brother's attempt to kill the Stark kid, even though she understood it was necessary.
Joffrey could have done it, even though I doubt he tought about it himself, but where did the dagger come from? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Tyrion's dagger.
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2011, 10:25:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2011, 04:32:29 PM
Berkut, I have no idea why you insist on saying LF had no information. He is amongst the best informed people in the books - perhaps the best. To suggest that he paid no attention to the goings on of the Kings progress to Winterfell and back is nonsense.
Actually, to suggest that would be a strawman, not nonsense. I never claimed Baelish was not well informed, I said he would have little information that would lead him to decide that killing Bran would be useful.
Even with that qualification your assertion that he had no information is absurd given the amount of spies all the court notables have around the king. The condition that he physically speak to Joffrey rather than communicate by Raven is based completely on the assumption that LF would be fearful that he might be discovered. But that view discounts the subtle manner in which LF influences the actions at Court. It also assumes that LF isnt crafty enough to communicate with his spies in a manner not easily detectable - for example using code, using a false identity so even if detected it can be blamed on another. The list goes on. But, as I stated in my first response to you - one must have a certain degree of imagination and not be constrained by artificial restrictions not found in the books.
What are these "artifical restrictions not found in the books" you keep mentioning?
Do you mean like actual real contraints on people, like the fact that you can't make decisions on information you don't have?
Rather than complain about my lack of imagination, how about instead you actually address the reasons I gave that make it almost impossible for Baelish to have anything to do with the attempt on Bran's life after Jaime tried to kill him?
For example, why would Baelish wish to kill Bran, and how does Bran's "accident" incent Baelish to have him killed, when he apparently did not want him killed prior to the accident? Please remember that at this point Baelish, even if he has access to your magic, super fast, and completely secure ravens, does not even know that Bran's injury is the result of anything other than an accident, and he also thinks Bran is very likely to die anyway (asssuming he even knows that there has been an accident of course).
This is just one of many, many problems with your theory, of course.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 12, 2011, 10:59:45 AM
Even with that qualification your assertion that he had no information is absurd given the amount of spies all the court notables have around the king. The condition that he physically speak to Joffrey rather than communicate by Raven is based completely on the assumption that LF would be fearful that he might be discovered. But that view discounts the subtle manner in which LF influences the actions at Court. It also assumes that LF isnt crafty enough to communicate with his spies in a manner not easily detectable - for example using code, using a false identity so even if detected it can be blamed on another. The list goes on. But, as I stated in my first response to you - one must have a certain degree of imagination and not be constrained by artificial restrictions not found in the books.
The problem with this assertion is that it assumes that some Baelish spy is going to (1) be able to communicate all the particulars to Baelish back at King's Landing (unlikely given the limits of the technology available), (2) get a complete set of instructions back from Baelish (again overcoming technology), and (3) have the ear of Joffrey to the extent that he could get Joffrey to not only secretly send an assassin after Bran, but to make sure that the assassin used a specific weapon. I submit that the likelihood of all these being true is vanishingly small, and that the lack of logic is a bigger hamper to your analysis of this case than Berkut's lack of imagination is to his.
Any assertion that is "based completely on the assumption that LF would be fearful that he might be discovered" is probably a plausible one, and any that is not is probably an implausible one. Baelish's power is almost completely based on the pretense that he has no real power at all - that he is a puppet, not a master.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 12, 2011, 10:59:45 AM
Even with that qualification your assertion that he had no information is absurd
What is absurd is your insistence that I said something I never claimed. Where have I said Baelish has "no information"?
He has the same information everyone has at that point, at most. A son of Ned Stark had an accident and is likely dying. Are you suggesting he would know more than this from these super spies he has around the king? Are you suggesting that someone other than Cersei or Jaime know that Brans injury was an attempt to murder him? And that person told Baelish? And Baelish then sent that person a directive to finish off Bran? And, btw, if the cutpurse had succeeded, nobody would have known who tried to have Bran killed since Catelyn was not supposed to be in the room, and hence the only thin reason given for Baelish to have Bran killed (the attempt to implicate the Lannisters in the death) would not even have happened?
Perhaps I do lack your imagination...
Quote from: Solmyr on July 12, 2011, 05:16:58 AM
Considering the "assassin" was a complete moron, it makes little sense that Littlefinger would employ him, and much more sense that Joffrey just shoved a dagger and a bag of silver into some random guy's hands and sent him on his way.
What's that in your avatar?
That's not what I think it is, right?
Quote from: grumbler on July 12, 2011, 11:18:36 AM
The problem with this assertion is that it assumes that some Baelish spy is going to (1) be able to communicate all the particulars to Baelish back at King's Landing (unlikely given the limits of the technology available)
This is the same problem that plagues Berkut's assumption. Why is it that a LF spy cannot simply report by Raven 1) Jamie and Cersie went to a deserted tower for you know what (or some other code)); 2 Stark boy almost killed when he fell from same tower. 3) prognosis of the boy is currently unknown but he may survive 4)King has voiced his opinion that the boy should be put out of his misery.
The spy doesnt have to know how the boy had the fall ie that Jamie pushed him and the spy doesnt even have to know that the boy might have seen what Jamie and Cersie were up to. As stated many times the benefit to LF is simply to create chaos and wedges between the Hand to be and the King's family. Easily done by Raven.
Now you might say that Jamie and Cersie were able to find an go to the deserted tower with nobody noticing but that is asking a bit much to suggest that the Queen can simply disappear with no one (especially as spy who task is to watch her) noticing.
Quote(2) get a complete set of instructions back from Baelish (again overcoming technology),
I am not sure what you mean by a complete set of instructions means. There is no need for more than something like. "instruct X to obtain The Dagger; give it to Y and have Y kill the boy with the dagger after the King has left." There could be a large number of variations on this theme. Pretty easy to do using Raven. Not sure what the hang up is with "overcoming technology" since Raven was the dominant method of communicating in the books.
If you want to stick with the Joffrey did it angle its still easily explained by the same logic given by the Joffrey did it advocates though number of possible communications that could have been made including "Lay a series of hints/reminders for Joffrey that the King thinks the boy should be put out of his misery; watch Joffrey - if he arranges for such a thing to be done make sure the assassin is given The Dagger."
Quote(3) have the ear of Joffrey to the extent that he could get Joffrey to not only secretly send an assassin after Bran, but to make sure that the assassin used a specific weapon.
If you stick with the Joffrey did is scenario, Joffrey doesnt have to give the assassin the dagger. The dagger can be obtained by the spy and given to the assassin with instructions to use it. Simple enough.
QuoteAny assertion that is "based completely on the assumption that LF would be fearful that he might be discovered" is probably a plausible one, and any that is not is probably an implausible one. Baelish's power is almost completely based on the pretense that he has no real power at all - that he is a puppet, not a master
Any assertion that LF is fearful has be judged in the context of everything else he does in the books. He is not a character that lets fear of his actions stand in his way. The fact that LF's power is based completely on his ability to manipulate is exactly why he would try to take advantage of this situation. You have not addressed his ability to communicate in code, misdirect responsibility if found out (which he does in other situations) and his ability to know everything about everyone and who does communicate with his network of spies reguarly. Surely someone with that knowledge and ability can send a rather simple series of communications through a system already planned in advance in order to keep tabs on what occurs while the King's court is away on this rather significant trip.
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
What is absurd is your insistence that I said something I never claimed. Where have I said Baelish has "no information"?
You are right. You said he had almost no information, which for the reasons already stated is just as absurd.
QuoteSo he has a means of spelling out what he wants in a manner that is clear enough to trigger an attempt to assassinate a kid on almost no information
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 12, 2011, 11:58:08 AM
This is the same problem that plagues Berkut's assumption. Why is it that a LF spy cannot simply report by Raven 1) Jamie and Cersie went to a deserted tower for you know what (or some other code)); 2 Stark boy almost killed when he fell from same tower. 3) prognosis of the boy is currently unknown but he may survive 4)King has voiced his opinion that the boy should be put out of his misery.
The problem with this question is the problem with your entire argument; this information doesn't motivate Baelish to do anything. Why would it motivate him to try to murder the child of his childhood sweetheart?
QuoteThe spy doesnt have to know how the boy had the fall ie that Jamie pushed him and the spy doesnt even have to know that the boy might have seen what Jamie and Cersie were up to. As stated many times the benefit to LF is simply to create chaos and wedges between the Hand to be and the King's family. Easily done by Raven.
Assassinating Bran does nothing of the sort.
QuoteI am not sure what you mean by a complete set of instructions means. There is no need for more than something like. "instruct X to obtain The Dagger; give it to Y and have Y kill the boy with the dagger after the King has left." There could be a large number of variations on this theme. Pretty easy to do using Raven. Not sure what the hang up is with "overcoming technology" since Raven was the dominant method of communicating in the books.
Why would Baelish do this? You aren't making any sense. How does X obtain The Dagger? Why does Baelish want Bran dead? I had supposed that Baelish is setting up Joffrey. You are now supposing that Baelish is acting directly agains Bran, for no apparent reason. Why couldn't this be Robert, in your scenario? Far more motive and far more opportunity.
QuoteIf you want to stick with the Joffrey did it angle its still easily explained by the same logic given by the Joffrey did it advocates though number of possible communications that could have been made including "Lay a series of hints/reminders for Joffrey that the King thinks the boy should be put out of his misery; watch Joffrey - if he arranges for such a thing to be done make sure the assassin is given The Dagger."
Who is this spy you think has that kind of access to the Crown Prince? If he/she has such high-level access, how does he/she have the time to watch the Queen 24/7 and the prince 24/7 while rendezvousing with assassins hired by the Prince 9and who don't know the spy therefor, but will accept a knife from him/her?) Too many holes.
QuoteIf you stick with the Joffrey did is scenario, Joffrey doesnt have to give the assassin the dagger. The dagger can be obtained by the spy and given to the assassin with instructions to use it. Simple enough.
:huh: Why would this assassin even listen to the spy; hell, the assassin would assassinate the spy as soon as the assassin knew the spy was aware of the plot!
QuoteAny assertion that LF is fearful has be judged in the context of everything else he does in the books. He is not a character that lets fear of his actions stand in his way. The fact that LF's power is based completely on his ability to manipulate is exactly why he would try to take advantage of this situation. You have not addressed his ability to communicate in code, misdirect responsibility if found out (which he does in other situations) and his ability to know everything about everyone and who does communicate with his network of spies reguarly. Surely someone with that knowledge and ability can send a rather simple series of communications through a system already planned in advance in order to keep tabs on what occurs while the King's court is away on this rather significant trip.
I am assuming that Baelish is logical and understands cost-benefit analysis. You are assuming he takes massive risks with little payoff (in the case of Joffrey ordering the assassination) to no payoff at all (in the case of Baelish randomly assassinating Bran). I'd say my view of Baelish is more in keeping with what we know of him from the books than yours.
There has never been any indication given anywhere at any time that anyone knew about Jaime and Cersei together in the tower room, or connected their tryst with Bran falling. This would be completely new information that has never once been revealed in some 8000 pages of text.
You are just making things up out of whole cloth at this point. You have created a super spy/assassin to go along with Baelish the super-villain.
Maybe Baelish is Jaqen, and was in the tower room itself all along, disguised as a piece of rubble! Use your imagination!
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2011, 12:30:33 PM
There has never been any indication given anywhere at any time that anyone knew about Jaime and Cersei together in the tower room
Now you are overstating to protect your position. You are certainly incorrect that nobody knew at anytime that they were in the tower.
First, Bran knew ;)
Second, Lady Stark found out.
Third, by book four it is more interesting to debate who didnt know. ;)
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 12, 2011, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2011, 12:30:33 PM
There has never been any indication given anywhere at any time that anyone knew about Jaime and Cersei together in the tower room
Now you are overstating to protect your position. You are certainly incorrect that nobody knew at anytime that they were in the tower.
First, Bran knew ;)
Second, Lady Stark found out.
Third, by book four it is more interesting to debate who didnt know. ;)
Ahh, so your reason for assuming that some unknown person knew about what happened in the tower is because if Bran knew, then someone else must have known. Right.
And no, Lady Stark did not find out, she suspected that Bran saw something - but the start of that suspicion was the attempt on Brans life - you are arguing in circles here. The only reason the Starks suspected that Bran's accident was not an accident was that someone tried to kill him afterwards. You can't use that as evidence that someone else (someone in Kings Landing even!) knew there was something more to his accident.
It is interesting that your claim that it is reasonable that Baelish knew that Brans accident was not an accident and hence knew to try to kill him is 100% based on evidence that never came out until long after the attempt on Bran, and that only came out as a result of the attempt on Bran. What a wonderful imagination you have, all in pursuit of the almost childish desire to see Baelish as the super villain responsible for everything.
Even when there is literally zero evidence that he had anything to do with it.
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2011, 12:57:41 PM
Ahh, so your reason for assuming that some unknown person knew about what happened in the tower is because if Bran knew, then someone else must have known. Right.
Nope, simply pointing out that your denials are becoming overreaching.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 12, 2011, 01:34:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2011, 12:57:41 PM
Ahh, so your reason for assuming that some unknown person knew about what happened in the tower is because if Bran knew, then someone else must have known. Right.
Nope, simply pointing out that your denials are becoming overreaching.
My denials are talking about what was known at the time Baelish would have to hatch your imagined plot. At that point, nobody knew what you claim he somehow knows, and there is no evidence anywhere in all the books that anyone knew
at that point that Brans accident was anything but an accident. Which is exactly what I said, and is pretty obvious, I think, to everyone (even you). I never claimed that nobody ever found out about Cersei and Jaime (which would of course be rather absurd on the face of it). Why you would intentionally mis-interpret my post in such a manner is rather beyond me - you aren't typically this intellectually, well, "flexible".
But I don't think we are really having an honest discussion anymore - just playing the Languish argument game. Which is much more boring than actually talking about these excellent novels. I think I will go back to watching for the postman...
Anyone know the time between the fall and the setting out of the King's party back to King's Landing? Anyone know the exact distance between King's Landing and Winterfell "as the raven flies"? Anyone know how long said distance would take to cover twice, to get information there and back? It seems like it'd be a very narrow window of opportunity if it were possible at all.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 12, 2011, 02:06:05 PM
Anyone know the time between the fall and the setting out of the King's party back to King's Landing? Anyone know the exact distance between King's Landing and Winterfell "as the raven flies"? Anyone know how long said distance would take to cover twice, to get information there and back? It seems like it'd be a very narrow window of opportunity if it were possible at all.
We know that it was around a fortnight between the fall and the kings party leaving Winterfell (I believe it was "under a fortnight") and then 8 days after the Kings party left was the attempt on Bran's life. So somewhere around 3 weeks altogther.
However, I don't think these things matter, since referring to actual physical times and ability of ravens as a messenger service just shows that you lack imagination. This all works if you just imagine that it works.
Oh, right. I forgot that. Dammit! :weep:
So there's magic that can bring the dead back but some kind of remote audiovisual magic is out of the question?
Quote from: The Brain on July 12, 2011, 02:31:17 PM
So there's magic that can bring the dead back but some kind of remote audiovisual magic is out of the question?
Yes, that is correct.
OK.
The maesters have a secret underground telegraph system.
Hodor!
Quote from: Siege on July 12, 2011, 11:37:41 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 12, 2011, 05:16:58 AM
Considering the "assassin" was a complete moron, it makes little sense that Littlefinger would employ him, and much more sense that Joffrey just shoved a dagger and a bag of silver into some random guy's hands and sent him on his way.
What's that in your avatar?
That's not what I think it is, right?
http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/1/5/0/68150_slide.jpg
You know, Littlefinger is far more interesting if he doesn't actually secretly control everything behind the scenes.