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[Siege]

[crazy canuck]

Berkut, I have no idea why you insist on saying LF had no information.  He is amongst the best informed people in the books - perhaps the best.  To suggest that he paid no attention to the goings on of the Kings progress to Winterfell and back is nonsense.

[Viking]

I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.

1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).
2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.

[Siege]

No way it was Littlefinger.
I'll go with Joffrey before blaming LF.
Cersei or Joffrey. Not Tyrion or Jaime.

[Berkut]

Berkut, I have no idea why you insist on saying LF had no information.  He is amongst the best informed people in the books - perhaps the best.  To suggest that he paid no attention to the goings on of the Kings progress to Winterfell and back is nonsense.

Actually, to suggest that would be a strawman, not nonsense. I never claimed Baelish was not well informed, I said he would have little information that would lead him to decide that killing Bran would be useful. If you disagree with this, please enlighten me - how is killing Bran going to result in furthering Baelish's goals based on the information that Baelish would have via raven that Bran had an accident. and was likely to die?

The information about Brans fall has to get to Kings Landing somehow. No matter how well informed Baelish is, there is no suggestion that he has magical forms of information such that he can know that Bran was pushed, and that if someone tries to kill him, it will end up pointing at the Lannisters somehow.

So how would he find out about Brans fall? By raven is the fastest way, and even that would take days at best. And provide very limited information - just that a member of the Stark family had an accident. Why would it include anything else?

And tell me how that information would lead Baelish to decide that the thing to do would be to kill this boy he has never met, for a purpose that is at that point unknown, since as far as anyone other than Cersei and Jaime knows, Brans accident was nothing but an accident. So why kill him? How does that serve any purpose of Baelish?

You claim that it is some generic desire to sow chaos - but how does killing Bran do that better than killing, say, Rickon? Or Theon? Or Tommin? Or <pick random largely unimportant noble>? Why Bran? His accident means nothing to everyone but the three people who say what was happening in that tower. To everyone else it is just an accident.

And to Petyr Baelish it is less than that - it is just some random news. Ned Starks son has had an accident in Winterfell, fell while climbing, and is likely to die. Tell me how he goes from THAT information to "Hey, I should have someone try to kill him! ... Profit!"

[Berkut]

I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.

1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).

His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.

2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.

Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.

I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?

As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.

I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.

[grumbler]

My finger is very large.
Can I be called Largefinger?
How about Massivefinger, or Humongousfinger?

The finger thing has been done.  We'll call you Needledick.

[grumbler]

Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?

LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".

Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?

If LF couldn't talk to Joffrey himself, he wouldn't try anything like this.  As you note, too many things could go wrong and his secret is that he is secretive.

[Viking]

I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.

1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).

His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.

Yet, at no other time is Joffrey quoted or seen having any concern about his father. The case for pleasing his father is all made by Lannisters who are certain that one of them sent the assassin but don't know which one and have ruled out all of the usual suspects.

2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.

Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.

I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?

As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.

I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.

He doesn't lie his ass off with regards to micah. We don't know what he said in the book, but what Joffrey said in the TV show was actually all true (selective and subjective truth). If anything the Ruby Ford scenes show that Joffrey is not organized enough to organize a murder, if he was he would have had sansa and/or arya murdered as well rather than just run crying to mommy about how the nasty wolf bit him.

[Berkut]

I've been saying this for a while. Joffrey did not send the catspaw. The reasons I think so are as follows.

1 - He clearly expressed a total lack of interest in Bran's fate after the fall (the scene were peter dinklage slaps jack gleeson).

His motivation has nothing to do with any concern about Brans fate though, just his concern about living up to his father, or doing something that he thinks would please his father.

Yet, at no other time is Joffrey quoted or seen having any concern about his father.

True, but not really compelling. He does mention his father with pride on several occasions actually, as in "My dad killed Rhaegar, he was a bad ass" kind of stuff, but no real evidence of affection.

It is a minor point against at best though. Just because he doesn't go on about how much he loved his dad doesn't mean he did not care at all about him. Joffrey is a pretty broken kid.

The case for pleasing his father is all made by Lannisters who are certain that one of them sent the assassin but don't know which one and have ruled out all of the usual suspects.

It is a pretty decent case. If you eliminate the possibilities, whoever is left, no matter how unlikely, is a pretty good suspect.

2 - Everything else that he does that can be firmly attributed to him he does in the open regardless of how it makes him look. I'm certain he would go out of his way to brag about sending the assassin or at least complain how unfair it was that Bran did not die.

Uhh, he lies his ass off about what happens with Mycah. He is perfectly capable of being a lying little bastard when it suits him.

I agree that the Joffrey as assassin explanation leaves something to be desired. It doesn't really make much sense, but on the other hand, who says that Joffrey's motives really need to make much sense?

As an explanation it is at least plausible, if a bit unsatisfactory. But I bet that description applies to quite a few murders that happen in real life as well.

I honestly think that the murder attempt was needed to get the Starks moving against the Lannisters, and who did it wasn't that important, and it is likely that Martin really did not give it that much thought.

He doesn't lie his ass off with regards to micah. We don't know what he said in the book, but what Joffrey said in the TV show was actually all true (selective and subjective truth).

Oh he lies his ass off. And the ability to "selectively tell the truth" is greater evidence of his ability to be deceitful, not less. Arguing that Joffrey would not lie about killing someone and using as evidence his not telling the complete truth doesn't really work.

If anything the Ruby Ford scenes show that Joffrey is not organized enough to organize a murder, if he was he would have had sansa and/or arya murdered as well rather than just run crying to mommy about how the nasty wolf bit him.

He didn't have the chance in that case though. You doubt that he would not have killed Arya if he thought he could get away with it???

[Berkut]

Yeah, because Ravens are such a secure way of communicating, Littlefinger would come up with this complex plan to take advantage of a situation he knows almost nothing about and try to murder a 7 year old boy. You might as weil just have him randomly pick someone to murder in order to raise some chaos - how is murdering Bran anymore useful than Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, Renly, or some other random noble?

LF being involved simply does not make sense given what we know already. A raven takes time, it isn't an email. It isn't secure. It transmits very little information. It is not plausible to think that LF would come up with such a plan, get it transmitted to someone already ready to engage in some killing, all in a matter of a day or two, and all based on a paucity of information that amounts to nothing more than "Hey, one of the Stark kids fell out of a tower and is likely to die".

Why would Bran being in an accident incent LF to such a course of action, when Bran *not* being in an accident would (presumably) not?

If LF couldn't talk to Joffrey himself, he wouldn't try anything like this.  As you note, too many things could go wrong and his secret is that he is secretive.

Yeah, this originally came up in a manner that actually made sense. If LF could talk to Joffrey, then it makes some sense - you can see how having Joffrey try to kill a STark kid could help out Baelish, whether it works or not.

Of course, the timing of that simply doesn't work.

Why people then want to turn around and drop that idea, and just presume that Baelish tries to have Bran killed himself makes no sense. Even ignoring the timing of it, the security of it, and the logistical problems, there just isn't any *reason* for Baelish to want Bran dead.

There is a reason why Baelish would want Joffrey to try to kill Bran. There is no reason for Baelish to want to kill Bran himself, or order Bran to be killed himself.

[Sophie Scholl]

While we're at it, I bet Littlefinger made Aerys go mad, put Tywin up to betraying Aerys, helped the Gregor Clegane rape and murder Rhaegar's wife, convinced Balon Greyjoy to attack the north, made Jorah inform on Danyrs, told Bronn to aid Tyrion in the Eyrie, suggested that Theon use the baker's kids as substitute Bran and Rickon, stirred The Others from their slumber, and told Drogo to take off the Mirri Maz Duhr's poultices.  Damn that Littlefinger!  He's... oh my Hod... I've got it!  He's the human manifestation of the God of Night that is locked in eternal combat with R'hallor!!

[Berkut]

While we're at it, I bet Littlefinger made Aerys go mad, put Tywin up to betraying Aerys, helped the Gregor Clegane rape and murder Rhaegar's wife, convinced Balon Greyjoy to attack the north, made Jorah inform on Danyrs, told Bronn to aid Tyrion in the Eyrie, suggested that Theon use the baker's kids as substitute Bran and Rickon, stirred The Others from their slumber, and told Drogo to take off the Mirri Maz Duhr's poultices.  Damn that Littlefinger!  He's... oh my Hod... I've got it!  He's the human manifestation of the God of Night that is locked in eternal combat with R'hallor!!

[Sophie Scholl]

The night is dark, and filled with Littlefingers!

[Solmyr]

Considering the "assassin" was a complete moron, it makes little sense that Littlefinger would employ him, and much more sense that Joffrey just shoved a dagger and a bag of silver into some random guy's hands and sent him on his way.