QuoteIraq's Newly Open Gays Face Scorn and Murder
By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS and TAREQ MAHER
Published: April 7, 2009
BAGHDAD — The relative freedom of a newly democratic Iraq and the recent improvement in security have allowed a gay subculture to flourish here. The response has been swift and deadly.
In the past two months, the bodies of as many as 25 boys and men suspected of being gay have turned up in the huge Shiite enclave of Sadr City, the police and friends of the dead say. Most have been shot, some multiple times. Several have been found with the word "pervert" in Arabic on notes attached to their bodies, the police said.
"Three of my closest friends have been killed during the past two weeks alone," said Basim, 23, a hairdresser. "They had been planning to go to a cafe away from Sadr City because we don't feel safe here, but they killed them on the way. I had planned to go with them, but fortunately I didn't."
Basim, who preferred to be called "Basima" — the feminine version of his name — wears his hair long for Iraq. It falls to just below the ear. His ears are pierced, uncommon for Iraqi males. White makeup covers his face, a popular look for gay men in Sadr City who say they prefer light skin.
Though risky, his look is one result of the overall calm here that has allowed Iraqis to enjoy freedoms unthinkable two years ago: A growing number of women walk the streets unveiled, a few even daring to wear dresses above the knee. Families gather in parks for cookouts, and more people have begun to venture out at night.
But that has not changed the reality that Iraq remains religious, conservative — and still violent. The killers, the police say, are not just Shiite death squads, but also tribal and family members shamed by their gay relatives. (And the recent spate of violence has seemed aimed at more openly gay men, rather than homosexuality generally.)
Clerics in Sadr City have urged followers to help root out homosexuality in Iraqi society, and the police have begun their own crackdown on gay men.
"Homosexuality is against the law," said Lt. Muthana Shaad, at a police station in the Karada district, a neighborhood that has become popular with gay men. "And it's disgusting."
For the past four months, he said, officers have been engaged in a "campaign to clean up the streets and get the beggars and homosexuals off them."
Gay men, he said, can be arrested only if they are seen engaging in sex, but the police try to drive them away. "These people, we make sure they can't get together in a coffee shop or walk together in the street — we make them break up," he said.
Gay men and lesbians in Iraq have long been among the targets of both Shiite and Sunni death squads, but their murders have been overshadowed by the hundreds of overall weekly casualties during the height of sectarian violence in 2006 and 2007.
In 2005, the country's most influential Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, issued a religious decree that said gay men and lesbians should be "punished, in fact, killed." He added, "The people should be killed in the worst, most severe way of killing." The language has since been removed from his Web site.
In recent months, groups of gay men have been taking greater chances, gathering in cafes and other public places in Baghdad, Basra, Najaf and other cities. On a recent night in Sadr City, several, their hair parted down the middle, talked as they quietly sipped tea at a garishly lighted cafe, oblivious to the stares of passers-by.
Basim, who would not give his last name out of fear for his safety, said he knew at least 20 young men from Sadr City's large but hidden gay community who had disappeared during the past two months. He said he had learned later that each was found dead. After three of his friends were killed, he stayed inside his house for a week. Recently he has begun to go out again.
"I can't stay at home all day," he said. "I need to see my friends."
Publicly, the Iraqi police have acknowledged only the deaths of six gay men in the neighborhood. But privately, police officials say the figure is far higher.
The chief of a Sadr City police station, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to speak to reporters, said family members had probably committed most of the Sadr City killings. He played down the role of death squads that had once been associated with the Mahdi Army, the militia that controlled Sadr City until American and Iraqi forces dislodged them last spring.
"Our investigation has found that these incidents are being committed by relatives of the gays — not just because of the militias," he said. "They are killing them because it is a shame on the family."
He said families typically refused to cooperate with the investigation or even to claim the bodies. No arrests have been made in the killings.
At the same time, though, clerics associated with Moktada al-Sadr, an anti-American cleric with significant influence in Sadr City, have devoted a portion of Friday Prayer services to inveighing against homosexuality.
"The community should be purified from such delinquent behavior like stealing, lying and the effeminacy phenomenon among men," Sheik Jassem al-Mutairi said during his sermon last Friday. Homosexuality, he said, was "far from manhood and honesty."
Abu Muhaned al-Diraji, a Sadrist official in Sadr City, said the clerics were in no way encouraging people to kill gay men.
"All we are doing is giving advice to people to take care of their sons," Mr. Diraji said. He acknowledged, however, that some of the killing had been committed by members of "special groups," or death squads.
"In general, it is the families that are killing the gay son, but I know that there are gunmen involved in this, too," he said. "But we disavow anybody committing this kind of crime and we encourage the people to follow the law."
In addition to the killings, a Sadr City cafe frequented by gay men recently burned down under mysterious circumstances.
Some young gay men in Sadr City have become nihilistic about the ever present threat.
"I don't care about the militias anymore, because they're going to kill me anyway — today, tomorrow or the day after," said a man named Sa'ad, who has been taking estrogen and has developed small breasts. "I hate my community and my relatives. If they had their way, the result would be one gunshot."
Reporting was contributed by Sam Dagher, Rod Nordland, Steven Lee Myers, Anwar J. Ali, Riyadh Mohammed and Campbell Robertson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/world/middleeast/08gay.html?_r=2&ref=world
Yay for democracy!
Arabs don't like gays? Say it ain't so.
Bring back Saddam. :)
Quote from: Caliga on April 15, 2009, 06:57:55 AM
Bring back Saddam. :)
exactly. he was a fluffy pink bunny of man love.
Quote from: saskganesh on April 15, 2009, 07:17:53 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 15, 2009, 06:57:55 AM
Bring back Saddam. :)
exactly. he was a fluffy pink bunny of man love.
:yes:
man love and ethnic cleansing :wub:
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 01:48:25 AM
Yay for democracy!
Hating gays is the will of the people.
You know, I am about as pro-gay rights as any straight man can be, but at some point don't you just have to wonder how fucking stupid people can be?
You are a fucking gay dude in an insanely fundamentalist religious society that is perfectly ok with using gross violence to enforce their religious views on others. Get a fucking clue already - you are not going to be able to run around in makeup tongue kissing your boyfriend in public.
Sorry - but that is simply the reality. it will get better, but not tomorrow or the next day.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 08:05:27 AM
You know, I am about as pro-gay rights as any straight man can be, but at some point don't you just have to wonder how fucking stupid people can be?
You are a fucking gay dude in an insanely fundamentalist religious society that is perfectly ok with using gross violence to enforce their religious views on others. Get a fucking clue already - you are not going to be able to run around in makeup tongue kissing your boyfriend in public.
Sorry - but that is simply the reality. it will get better, but not tomorrow or the next day.
I do have to say that transsexual dude in Shiite Sadr City is pretty damn courageous or stupid to do what he is doing.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 08:05:27 AM
You know, I am about as pro-gay rights as any straight man can be, but at some point don't you just have to wonder how fucking stupid people can be?
You are a fucking gay dude in an insanely fundamentalist religious society that is perfectly ok with using gross violence to enforce their religious views on others. Get a fucking clue already - you are not going to be able to run around in makeup tongue kissing your boyfriend in public.
Sorry - but that is simply the reality. it will get better, but not tomorrow or the next day.
I do have to say that transsexual dude in Shiite Sadr City is pretty damn courageous or stupid to do what he is doing.
It would be courageous if the stand he is making has any chance of actually changing anything.
Well, that particular society has a boner for martyrdom. :contract:
Quote
Gay men, he said, can be arrested only if they are seen engaging in sex, but the police try to drive them away. "These people, we make sure they can't get together in a coffee shop or walk together in the street — we make them break up," he said.
Turn the firehose on them.
Why are the gays slaying cops in Iraq?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 08:05:27 AM
You know, I am about as pro-gay rights as any straight man can be, but at some point don't you just have to wonder how fucking stupid people can be?
You are a fucking gay dude in an insanely fundamentalist religious society that is perfectly ok with using gross violence to enforce their religious views on others. Get a fucking clue already - you are not going to be able to run around in makeup tongue kissing your boyfriend in public.
Sorry - but that is simply the reality. it will get better, but not tomorrow or the next day.
True. I am sorry for these fellows, and despise the medieval culture they are forced to live in, but being openly gay is still an issue at many parts of the US and Europe, to not care for this in the middle of fucking Baghdad of 2009 shows a distinct lack of survival skills.
I have to say this just makes me more confused about the openly gay man who was all ready to return to Iraq after getting asylum in NYC.
Evolution in action. Although really, since gays aren't passing their genes on anyways, it doesn't matter what happens to them.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 09:02:27 AM
I have to say this just makes me more confused about the openly gay man who was all ready to return to Iraq after getting asylum in NYC.
My confusion was already maxed out with his story. This new story surprises me not at all.
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
25 Gays killed in Iraqs!!!!!
Tens of thousands of other people may also be dead.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 11:43:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.
Didn't you watch Europa Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Europa)? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 11:43:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.
Actually, if I were a Jew in Germany in 1935, I would fucking leave.
I would not prace about shoviong my Jewness down the throat of people who like to kill Jews.
If I was not capable of leaving, I would seriously consider my options for concealing my identity.
being alive >>>>>>> being right.
Isn't part of the problem that countries aren't accepting many Iraqi assylum seekers any more? I mean in the UK the government policy is now to deport Afghani and Iraqi refugees because those countries are 'safe' :bleeding:
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 11:49:41 AM
Actually, if I were a Jew in Germany in 1935, I would fucking leave.
I would not prace about shoviong my Jewness down the throat of people who like to kill Jews.
If I was not capable of leaving, I would seriously consider my options for concealing my identity.
being alive >>>>>>> being right.
So many Jews were at least partially at fault for their deaths?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
So many Jews were at least partially at fault for their deaths?
Is having any responsibility the same as being at 'fault'?
I mean if I start hanging around with people I know want to kill me, and I end up dead it is not my fault I am dead...but I do have a bit of responsibility for not being very prudent.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 11:55:37 AM
Is having any responsibility the same as being at 'fault'?
I mean if I start hanging around with people I know want to kill me, and I end up dead it is not my fault I am dead...but I do have a bit of responsibility for not being very prudent.
So you can be partly responsible but not share in any of the fault?
Regardless, I'd suggest that living in a country is a bit different from hanging around with people who want to kill you. I'm actually a bit puzzled to hear everyone suggest that minorities should just blend in and there won't be any trouble.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 11:49:41 AM
Actually, if I were a Jew in Germany in 1935, I would fucking leave.
I would not prace about shoviong my Jewness down the throat of people who like to kill Jews.
If I was not capable of leaving, I would seriously consider my options for concealing my identity.
being alive >>>>>>> being right.
So many Jews were at least partially at fault for their deaths?
Not at fault of course, but at the same time if you know your life is in serious danger, you are an idiot for not reacting accordingly, or thinking that because the unfairness of it means diddly squat.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:58:47 AM
So you can be partly responsible but not share in any of the fault?
Regardless, I'd suggest that living in a country is a bit different from hanging around with people who want to kill you. I'm actually a bit puzzled to hear everyone suggest that minorities should just blend in and there won't be any trouble.
I think to not do so is very courageous. But it is just not a smart thing to do if not getting killed is something important to you.
The people who joined up with MLK were courageous and did have some responsibility for taking on a role that was likely to get them hurt or killed. But they felt that possibility was worth the risk.
I guess 'fault' means to me that somehow they got what they deserved or that somehow if I was putting somebody on trial for the murder we could consider it a suicide. That is a bit different.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:03:46 PM
Not at fault of course, but at the same time if you know your life is in serious danger, you are an idiot for not reacting accordingly, or thinking that because the unfairness of it means diddly squat.
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:58:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 11:55:37 AM
Is having any responsibility the same as being at 'fault'?
I mean if I start hanging around with people I know want to kill me, and I end up dead it is not my fault I am dead...but I do have a bit of responsibility for not being very prudent.
So you can be partly responsible but not share in any of the fault?
Regardless, I'd suggest that living in a country is a bit different from hanging around with people who want to kill you. I'm actually a bit puzzled to hear everyone suggest that minorities should just blend in and there won't be any trouble.
Nice strawman.
I think the only thing that has been said is that if you are gay and live somewhere like Iraq, you are an idiot of you are not being rather circumspect about it. That doesn't mean that there "won't be any trouble", it just means that you won't be dead.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
They probably wont.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:05:18 PM
Nice strawman.
I think the only thing that has been said is that if you are gay and live somewhere like Iraq, you are an idiot of you are not being rather circumspect about it. That doesn't mean that there "won't be any trouble", it just means that you won't be dead.
Unless of course, one would like Iraq to someday be a place where gay people can walk about openly. :mellow:
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:58:47 AM
So you can be partly responsible but not share in any of the fault?
Regardless, I'd suggest that living in a country is a bit different from hanging around with people who want to kill you. I'm actually a bit puzzled to hear everyone suggest that minorities should just blend in and there won't be any trouble.
I think to not do so is very courageous. But it is just not a smart thing to do if not getting killed is something important to you.
The people who joined up with MLK were courageous and did have some responsibility for taking on a role that was likely to get them hurt or killed. But they felt that possibility was worth the risk.
I guess 'fault' means to me that somehow they got what they deserved or that somehow if I was putting somebody on trial for the murder we could consider it a suicide. That is a bit different.
Ahh, but the difference is that the people who did that made a reasoned judgement about the risk and the potential good their risk could do - and they accomplished something.
A gay guy in Iraq is not going to accomplish anything - the environment is not such that any good will come of their stand - Iraq is not at a place where such a demonstration can have anything but a negative effect on their movement.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:06:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:05:18 PM
Nice strawman.
I think the only thing that has been said is that if you are gay and live somewhere like Iraq, you are an idiot of you are not being rather circumspect about it. That doesn't mean that there "won't be any trouble", it just means that you won't be dead.
Unless of course, one would like Iraq to someday be a place where gay people can walk about openly. :mellow:
The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:04:37 PM
I think to not do so is very courageous. But it is just not a smart thing to do if not getting killed is something important to you.
The people who joined up with MLK were courageous and did have some responsibility for taking on a role that was likely to get them hurt or killed. But they felt that possibility was worth the risk.
I guess 'fault' means to me that somehow they got what they deserved or that somehow if I was putting somebody on trial for the murder we could consider it a suicide. That is a bit different.
I understand...however, I would not be quick to say that those people who joined up with MLK were stupid for challenging the status quo.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
They probably wont.
It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2009, 12:10:13 PM
It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.
Fortunately most societies are not like the Third Reich.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.
Well we only live once and I don't really see that any of them would like your suggestion of hiding in terror in their closets...even if, after all, it's for their own safety!
What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history. While it might look stupid to you, minority groups generally don't like to sacrifice their identities. Persecution of religious minorities in Europe is a good example of that.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:11:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2009, 12:10:13 PM
It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.
Fortunately most societies are not like the Third Reich.
When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.
And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:15:08 PM
When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.
And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.
Were the gays in question protesting outside of a mosque? I was of the opinion that they were on their way to a cafe.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.
Well we only live once and I don't really see that any of them would like your suggestion of hiding in terror in their closets...even if, after all, it's for their own safety!
What do you think gay people do who aren't interviewed for news stories, or the ones in Saudia Arabia?
Or the ones in Poland, for that matter?
Quote
What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history. While it might look stupid to you, minority groups generally don't like to sacrifice their identities.
They do not have to sacrifice their identities, they have to hide them. The alternative is that they are dead. I think that is sacrificing your life, and I am pretty sure your identity is reliant on your life.
QuotePersecution of religious minorities in Europe is a good example of that.
Indeed, and when the persecution was so bad as to include the extermination of those minorities, standing up and demanding to be noticed as such a minority, while noble, isn't very smart, and does no good.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:15:08 PM
When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.
And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.
Were the gays in question protesting outside of a mosque? I was of the opinion that they were on their way to a cafe.
Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history.
You know, if we accept the idea that homosexuality is relatively common and genetic, then in fact throughout human history gays ahve being "in the closet" for the most part. So actually eing out of the closet is what is counter to human history.
This is a good thing of course, but I don't know what your point is here - do you think them being openly gay is worth their lives? Do you think it will make the situation any better for gay people in Iraq?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:17:50 PM
What do you think gay people do who aren't interviewed for news stories, or the ones in Saudia Arabia?
Or the ones in Poland, for that matter?
Well I've never been interviewed for a news story...
Also, of what relevance is Marty's cowardice?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:17:50 PMThey do not have to sacrifice their identities, they have to hide them. The alternative is that they are dead. I think that is sacrificing your life, and I am pretty sure your identity is reliant on your life.
Is that a life worth living?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:17:50 PMIndeed, and when the persecution was so bad as to include the extermination of those minorities, standing up and demanding to be noticed as such a minority, while noble, isn't very smart, and does no good.
I'd argue the opposite. Without people standing up and saying this is fucked, things would never improve. There could never have been a civil rights movement, if the groundwork hadn't been laid in the century prior.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:19:27 PM
Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.
Actually it does. After all, were the Jews in question protesting outside of Auschwitz?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:21:49 PM
You know, if we accept the idea that homosexuality is relatively common and genetic, then in fact throughout human history gays ahve being "in the closet" for the most part. So actually eing out of the closet is what is counter to human history.
I don't think so. The sense of a gay identity is something fairly recent. The trouble is, once you agree that being gay is an identity, it is hard to close Pandora's box, so to speak.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:21:49 PMThis is a good thing of course, but I don't know what your point is here - do you think them being openly gay is worth their lives? Do you think it will make the situation any better for gay people in Iraq?
If they feel so, then yes. Without openly gay people, I don't see how the situation in Iraq will ever improve (in that regard).
Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?
Quote from: The Brain on April 15, 2009, 12:31:35 PM
Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?
I blame the Mormons.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
A little common sense goes a long way.
Quote from: Syt on April 15, 2009, 11:47:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 11:43:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.
Didn't you watch Europa Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Europa)? :rolleyes:
Of course I did. Agnieszka Holland is my favourite Polish movie director. :P
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:08:17 PM
I understand...however, I would not be quick to say that those people who joined up with MLK were stupid for challenging the status quo.
They would have been if the entire U.S. were like the south was. I think that would be a more apt comparison to the situation with gays in Iraq.
It's not like there's an entire region (constituting more than 50% of the population) that is largely sympathic to gay rights.
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have). However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights. Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing. Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
They probably wont.
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:23:26 PM
I'd argue the opposite. Without people standing up and saying this is fucked, things would never improve. There could never have been a civil rights movement, if the groundwork hadn't been laid in the century prior.
Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.
People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.
Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.
:yes:
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:39:40 PM
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have). However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights. Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing. Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.
Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:24:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:19:27 PM
Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.
Actually it does. After all, were the Jews in question protesting outside of Auschwitz?
No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:41:21 PM
Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.
People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.
Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
:blink:
Oh, so there weren't black people/slaves standing up incensed about what was being done to them? I think it is fucked up to say that minorities should just shut up and take it.
How exactly do you see gay rights ever coming about in Iraq if there is no one who is interested in them?
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:39:40 PM
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have). However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights. Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing. Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.
indeed.
There is standing up for what is right, then there is basic common sense.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:41:21 PM.Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
I think you are wrong. In fact, all historical precedents show that it is quite the opposite - whether we are talking about Christians in ancient Rome, slaves demanding freedom or gays demanding their rights.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
They probably wont.
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.
It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.
Do you think they are?
I think the only thing they are accomplishing is
1. Getting themselves killed, and
2. hardening the feelings of largely ignorant people about homosexuals.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:41:37 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:39:40 PM
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have). However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights. Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing. Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.
Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?
If it was so bad that the society tolerated people murdering you out of hand, then in fact it would be "fucking stupid" to openly proclaim your status as someone the society wishes (and in fact does) murder out of hand.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:41:37 PM
Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?
I would feel dirty about using those exact words, but yeah, if you had a chance to conceal your Jewishness in Third Reich and save yourself (at no cost to other Jews or any other obvious disclaimer), you would be highly imprudent to not take it. Yes, you'd be a coward, but sometimes being a coward is the most sensible option.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:42:51 PM
No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.
No, it gets out the ludicrousness of your example. I recognize that the image of a Jew protesting outside of Auschwitz is much more compelling image of someone stupid than of a Jew just walking about in a society that despises him. Unfortunately, as the situation was more of the latter, your rhetorical trick has failed.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.
Whether it is courageous or stupid depends alot on how informed you are. If you know full well what the consequences are but you do it anyway out of a sense of justice that is courageous. If you are just so self-centered and unaware that you just do whatever you want having no idea what the consequences are then you are stupid. I would hope anybody doing the transexual thing in a Shi'ite part of the Muslim world would have no illusions about what that might mean for them.
We, and presumably others in the Western world, are discussing gay rights in Iraq thanks to those who died.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?
They probably wont.
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.
It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.
Do you think they are?
I think the only thing they are accomplishing is
1. Getting themselves killed, and
2. hardening the feelings of largely ignorant people about homosexuals.
I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.
Do you think they are?
Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored. If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:46:44 PM
I would hope anybody doing the transexual thing in a Shi'ite part of the Muslim world would have no illusions about what that might mean for them.
Well considering that they have friends and family members dying, I think they get it.
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:46:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:41:37 PM
Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?
I would feel dirty about using those exact words, but yeah, if you had a chance to conceal your Jewishness in Third Reich and save yourself (at no cost to other Jews or any other obvious disclaimer), you would be highly imprudent to not take it. Yes, you'd be a coward, but sometimes being a coward is the most sensible option.
Well I would probably be a coward, too. Hell, I'm a coward in Poland, despite the fact that I do not face any serious persecution. That doesn't give me a right to call those courageous enough "fucking stupid" - I have some basic decency left to know that thanks to those "fucking stupid" individuals my lot is eventually improved.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:47:19 PM
I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?
Take someone like derspeiss. He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:50:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:47:19 PM
I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?
Take someone like derspeiss. He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.
Well I wouldn't bother if it was posted by derspeiss, but I'm curious why Berkut thinks so.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:41:21 PM
Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.
People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.
Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
:blink:
Oh, so there weren't black people/slaves standing up incensed about what was being done to them? I think it is fucked up to say that minorities should just shut up and take it.
Who said there were not? You are on some kind of strawman marathon.
However, even in slave times, a black man was not casually murdered without repercussions, so the comparison fails.
In cases where being a minority was so hated that in fact death was the result, then yeah, there weren't too many standing up and demanding to be recognized - the issue is not one of recognition, because the problem is not that people refuse to recognize them. THe problem is that they want to kill them.
I agree that it is fucked up to say that minorities should "just shut up and take it". Who the hell is saying that, so we can all feel self-righteous about slamming them?
QuoteHow exactly do you see gay rights ever coming about in Iraq if there is no one who is interested in them?
i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.
I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?
Why?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:46:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:42:51 PM
No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.
No, it gets out the ludicrousness of your example. I recognize that the image of a Jew protesting outside of Auschwitz is much more compelling image of someone stupid than of a Jew just walking about in a society that despises him. Unfortunately, as the situation was more of the latter, your rhetorical trick has failed.
Uhh no, because in fact gays in Iraq are not in a 'society that despises them" they are in a society that feels they ought to and should kill them. So my "rhetorical trick" works just fine.
I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PMi don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.
I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?
Why?
If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination". Sure, murder is an extreme case but the same mechanism has worked in the West when it comes to gay rights movement - the single most powerful thing causing people to rethink their attitude towards GLBT people was someone from their close circle of family and friends coming out. Then it is no longer the boa-wearing, painted giant-penis-float riding freak from the pride parade, but a human being you know.
Now, the change of these proportions does not come over night - it took decades if not centuries in the West, to reach the point we have now, but that's how it started.
Hell, it's visible even in Poland - sure, homophobia in the society is probably now higher than it was 20 years ago - but so is visibility. You no longer have people who don't "know any gays" - people are forced to take sides. It's painful, but it's the only way.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:48:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.
Do you think they are?
Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored. If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.
Not the case at all. There are other ways to make the issue come to light, and more improtantly, the issue is not really about homosexi=ulity at the core - it is about intolerance of ANY non-conformists.
The solution is going to be a shift in the society away from intolerance in general, and then homosexuallity will be at least barely tolerated. THEN you can start working on acceptance.
Look at somewhere like Turkey, for example.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:50:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:47:19 PM
I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?
Take someone like derspeiss. He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.
meh, not a terrible example, but bviously radically different in scale.
most people in Iraq probably don't think much about gays, and if
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PMi don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.
I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?
Why?
If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination".
Did you read the article?
The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
So many Jews were at least partially at fault for their deaths?
Some certainly were.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:57:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:48:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.
Do you think they are?
Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored. If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.
Not the case at all. There are other ways to make the issue come to light, and more improtantly, the issue is not really about homosexi=ulity at the core - it is about intolerance of ANY non-conformists.
The solution is going to be a shift in the society away from intolerance in general, and then homosexuallity will be at least barely tolerated. THEN you can start working on acceptance.
Look at somewhere like Turkey, for example.
This is the paradox/conundrum of the global village. In the age of internet and global information access, some people are no longer content to wait a generation or two before the Change(tm) comes to their corner.
It's a relatively recent phenomenon to be able to tell whether it speeds up the social change or not. But Poland went over 20 years through the same kind of change the US went over 50 years, so I think it's working.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:59:23 PM
Did you read the article?
The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.
Do you have evidence that ALL of their relatives and friends are happy about them being killed?
Gays are disowned by parents and rebuked by friends in the West even today. That does not mean that what I said is untrue.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PMi don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.
I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?
Why?
If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination". Sure, murder is an extreme case but the same mechanism has worked in the West when it comes to gay rights movement - the single most powerful thing causing people to rethink their attitude towards GLBT people was someone from their close circle of family and friends coming out. Then it is no longer the boa-wearing, painted giant-penis-float riding freak from the pride parade, but a human being you know.
The problem here is that that works (and has worked) in the West, over the last what, 10-20 years? 50 years?
Iraqi/Muslim society is not the West of the last 50 years. More like the West of....500 years ago? I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?
You are projecting a culture and context on them that is inapplicable.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:59:23 PM
Did you read the article?
The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.
Do you have evidence that ALL of their relatives and friends are happy about them being killed?
Gays are disowned by parents and rebuked by friends in the West even today. That does not mean that what I said is untrue.
It means that you are trying to run before you can even crawl.
In the West, if your family is intolerant and ignorant, they rebuke you or disown you.
In Iraq, they murder you.
You cannot see the difference here?
You do not understand that that difference means that prudence suggests that perhaps the same response is not in order, and not productive?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PMHowever, even in slave times, a black man was not casually murdered without repercussions, so the comparison fails.
:blink:
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PMIn cases where being a minority was so hated that in fact death was the result, then yeah, there weren't too many standing up and demanding to be recognized - the issue is not one of recognition, because the problem is not that people refuse to recognize them. THe problem is that they want to kill them.
That's simply not true. Christian religious minorities stood up all the time. They out and out refused to pretend. And it wasn't an issue of recognition either, their opponents didn't want them to exist.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PM
I agree that it is fucked up to say that minorities should "just shut up and take it". Who the hell is saying that, so we can all feel self-righteous about slamming them?
You said that gays shouldn't be the ones standing up for themselves in Iraq as they will be killed. The only alternative is to shut up and take it...with the vague hope that someone will intervene. :mellow:
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:52:12 PM
i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.
I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?
Why?
Acutally you are the one so committed to the idea that gays can't change minds that way:
QuoteA gay guy in Iraq is not going to accomplish anything - the environment is not such that any good will come of their stand - Iraq is not at a place where such a demonstration can have anything but a negative effect on their movement.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:54:48 PM
I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.
Are you kidding me? I'm not advocating that people have to stand up at all. In fact, I know that I would be too cowardly to stand up for myself. I was too cowardly to come out in high school. What I can't stand is the idea that these courageous individuals are somehow stupid or fucking stupid for taking a stand.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:02:37 PM
I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?
No one bats an eye? :yeahright:
QuoteAcutally you are the one so committed to the idea that gays can't change minds that way:
The results rather speak for themselves.
But I can be convinced - where is your evidence that in fact all these dead gays are changing Iraqis views towards homosexuality?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:07:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:54:48 PM
I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.
Are you kidding me? I'm not advocating that people have to stand up at all. In fact, I know that I would be too cowardly to stand up for myself. I was too cowardly to come out in high school. What I can't stand is the idea that these courageous individuals are somehow stupid or fucking stupid for taking a stand.
Exactly.
I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.
Quote from: Neil on April 15, 2009, 01:11:27 PM
I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.
Get lost. Do your trolling some other time. :)
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:02:37 PM
I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?
No one bats an eye? :yeahright:
Did you read the article?
There is no investigation, no outrage, and prominent Muslim clerics seem to be rather tolerant of the idea that killing them is good policy.
But liek I said - I can be convinced. Show me otherwise. I am just going by what that article and others like it have shown. You clearly know much more about this than I do, since you are sure these guys being killed are making great strides for gay rights in Iraq. Share with us.
Quote from: Neil on April 15, 2009, 01:11:27 PM
I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.
Are you Ernst Röhm?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 08:05:27 AM
You know, I am about as pro-gay rights as any straight man can be, but at some point don't you just have to wonder how fucking stupid people can be?
You are a fucking gay dude in an insanely fundamentalist religious society that is perfectly ok with using gross violence to enforce their religious views on others. Get a fucking clue already - you are not going to be able to run around in makeup tongue kissing your boyfriend in public.
Sorry - but that is simply the reality. it will get better, but not tomorrow or the next day.
This is a society where people kill one another for the sin of being from a slightly different flavor of religion. However, within all the flavors of that religion they are willing to kill over, they seem to all agree that killing gay people is a great idea. At best, the enlightened ones will look on gays as abominations, but not ones worthy of being killed.
The idea that it is ready to accept open homosexuality is a pipe dream.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:10:10 PM
The results rather speak for themselves.
Really? How so?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:10:10 PMBut I can be convinced - where is your evidence that in fact all these dead gays are changing Iraqis views towards homosexuality?
We're talking about something "recent" so I don't see why one would expect results right away. I don't have any specific evidence on hand, so I suppose I'd have to fall back on my belief that minorities have a huge role to play in changing the public's perception of them...and then minorities refusing to stay silent is vital for change to occur.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:15:55 PM
The idea that it is ready to accept open homosexuality is a pipe dream.
Who says that it is ready? Does that mean that you are stupid if you don't decide to sit by passively and wish you'd been born in a better time/place?
So you
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:10:10 PM
The results rather speak for themselves.
Really? How so?
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:10:10 PMBut I can be convinced - where is your evidence that in fact all these dead gays are changing Iraqis views towards homosexuality?
We're talking about something "recent" so I don't see why one would expect results right away. I don't have any specific evidence on hand, so I suppose I'd have to fall back on my belief that minorities have a huge role to play in changing the public's perception of them...and then minorities refusing to stay silent is vital for change to occur.
would advocate for gay people in say, 1200 AD Saudia Arabia stand up and demand to be recongized as well?
And that a Jew in 1943 Germany who had not yet been identified and tossed in on oven should in fact "refuse to stay silent" and get himself murdered, in the hope that somehow that will change anything...even when we know that is not the case?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:17:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:15:55 PM
The idea that it is ready to accept open homosexuality is a pipe dream.
Who says that it is ready? Does that mean that you are stupid if you don't decide to sit by passively and wish you'd been born in a better time/place?
No, it means you are stupid if you go out and force your identity in the face of those who want to kill you, and have the power to do so.
And what is wrong with wishing or sitting by passively? Isn't that what you did?
if you had known that you standing up in high school would have resulted in your death,, are you really arguing that absent your "cowardness" you should have done so anyway?
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
We're talking about something "recent" so I don't see why one would expect results right away.
Nothing recent about it at all - fundy Muslim countries have been killing gays for hundreds of years.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:22:19 PM
Nothing recent about it at all - fundy Muslim countries have been killing gays for hundreds of years.
Actually what we are talking about is fairly recent as it is only recently that gays have been so brazen as to congregate in groups and walk so freely in public.
QuoteThe improved security situation in Iraq has prompted some members of the gay community to meet under certain circumstances in public, London newspaper The Independent reported. With Islam taking a negative stance on homosexuality, however, that openness was met with sweeping condemnation by several Iraqi clerics who called for its eradication.
(can't find link again :blush:)
QuoteAs many as 25 men and boys suspected of being gay have been found murdered in the past two months in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City, Iraq, The New York Times reports. The sudden rash of violence follows the blossoming of a gay subculture attributed to the relative peace and security in post-surge Iraq, coupled with a new sense of freedom in the young democracy. Some of the victims had notes attached to their bodies with the Arabic word for "pervert," according to police.
http://www.diversityinc.com/public/5694.cfm
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 01:12:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 15, 2009, 01:11:27 PM
I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.
Get lost. Do your trolling some other time. :)
Then shut the fuck up about faggotry. If you bring that in my thread, then I reserve the right to comment.
These people deserve what they get. Those who stand up against the will of the majority get hammered down. If they were smart, they could go about their little trysts quietly, and live.
I think the chief point here is that society of Iraq is very far from the point of advance where gays could start demanding their rights in western society.
Frankly, there are far greater cultural and political issues to be resolved, which are, in a practical sense, a prerequisite for openly accepting gays.
Many gays in the west, being artists or whatever, contributed to the general advance of culture and politics without ever really leaving the closet and taking up the open stance these baghdad fools were murdered over. This is what should be happening in Iraq.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
So you would advocate for gay people in say, 1200 AD Saudia Arabia stand up and demand to be recongized as well?
And that a Jew in 1943 Germany who had not yet been identified and tossed in on oven should in fact "refuse to stay silent" and get himself murdered, in the hope that somehow that will change anything...even when we know that is not the case?
Perhaps you missed the point that I'm not advocating anything. I simply not as quick to condemn them as you are (which is what you do when you say they are fucking stupid).
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:21:17 PM
And what is wrong with wishing or sitting by passively? Isn't that what you did?
I can only speak for myself, but it ate away at me. I spent a lot of time concerned that people would find out and pushed people away because of that fear. Living a lie, so to speak, is psychologically tiring.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:21:17 PMif you had known that you standing up in high school would have resulted in your death,, are you really arguing that absent your "cowardness" you should have done so anyway?
Again, I'm not really arguing for what people should do. I do think though that people acting like themselves is important to get things to change.
Quote from: Tamas on April 15, 2009, 01:29:33 PM
Many gays in the west, being artists or whatever, contributed to the general advance of culture and politics without ever really leaving the closet and taking up the open stance these baghdad fools were murdered over. This is what should be happening in Iraq.
Except that being gay wasn't an identity in the west until near or during the 20th century. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, because of Western influence, that cat is already "coming out" (:P) of the bag.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 15, 2009, 01:29:33 PM
Many gays in the west, being artists or whatever, contributed to the general advance of culture and politics without ever really leaving the closet and taking up the open stance these baghdad fools were murdered over. This is what should be happening in Iraq.
Except that being gay wasn't an identity in the west until near or during the 20th century.
And once the Muslim world joins the 20th century, that can be the case for them as well.
For now however, they are better off staying out of site and working towards a more general shift towards tolerance and an advanced society, rather than their particular subset of intoelrated persecution.
JMO, of course. But I rather doubt that gay men in Sadr City walking about with their faces painted are really going for social justice so much as some kind of desperate plea for attention, even if it kills them. And it will.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:33:08 PM
I can only speak for myself, but it ate away at me. I spent a lot of time concerned that people would find out and pushed people away because of that fear. Living a lie, so to speak, is psychologically tiring.
Bah, that's just teen angst having nothing to do with your sexual orientation. In high school, everybody is desparately trying to fit in, but in all teens' own minds, they don't fit in. So almost everybody spends all their time worrying about how everything they do will look to the other students, and being miserable.
Quote from: dps on April 15, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
Bah, that's just teen angst having nothing to do with your sexual orientation. In high school, everybody is desparately trying to fit in, but in all teens' own minds, they don't fit in. So almost everybody spends all their time worrying about how everything they do will look to the other students, and being miserable.
Actually, that was another component in there but it was different. After all, I don't think teenage angst usually extends to fear about one's own family. :mellow:
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:39:34 PM
And once the Muslim world joins the 20th century, that can be the case for them as well.
The second sentence of my post was rather important.
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:39:34 PM
But I rather doubt that gay men in Sadr City walking about with their faces painted are really going for social justice so much as some kind of desperate plea for attention, even if it kills them. And it will.
I'll agree with the bold bit. They are probably just doing it because that's who they are. I doubt it is for attention as we all know what kind of attention they will get, and it won't be fun.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:49:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 01:39:34 PM
But I rather doubt that gay men in Sadr City walking about with their faces painted are really going for social justice so much as some kind of desperate plea for attention, even if it kills them. And it will.
I'll agree with the bold bit. They are probably just doing it because that's who they are. I doubt it is for attention as we all know what kind of attention they will get, and it won't be fun.
See my first post in the thread.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:44:30 PM
Quote from: dps on April 15, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
Bah, that's just teen angst having nothing to do with your sexual orientation. In high school, everybody is desparately trying to fit in, but in all teens' own minds, they don't fit in. So almost everybody spends all their time worrying about how everything they do will look to the other students, and being miserable.
Actually, that was another component in there but it was different. After all, I don't think teenage angst usually extends to fear about one's own family. :mellow:
Well, it does extend to fear of being embarrassed by your family. But, yeah, I understand that's not what you're talking about. Basically, I'm just saying that almost all high school students are hiding themselves to an extent.
EDIT: Hmm, I suppose that we can draw some parallels between high schools and violent, backwards third-world societies. :D
Quote from: dps on April 15, 2009, 02:34:33 PM
EDIT: Hmm, I suppose that we can draw some parallels between high schools and violent, backwards third-world societies. :D
Likely...which is probably why they make kids read Lord of the Flies in highschool. :lol:
I think garbon and Marty should stand up for their fellow gays and go to Iraq and protest. It would be a great Languish meetup!
Quote from: mongers on April 15, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
Trust me, reading about it is more tiring.
I doubt it. Reading three sentences shouldn't be taxing unless you have a mental condition. :(
Quote from: dps on April 15, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 01:33:08 PM
I can only speak for myself, but it ate away at me. I spent a lot of time concerned that people would find out and pushed people away because of that fear. Living a lie, so to speak, is psychologically tiring.
Bah, that's just teen angst having nothing to do with your sexual orientation. In high school, everybody is desparately trying to fit in, but in all teens' own minds, they don't fit in. So almost everybody spends all their time worrying about how everything they do will look to the other students, and being miserable.
It ate me away when I was a closeted adult, too. You have no idea. It's extremely psychologically tiring and damaging to always live in fear and in a lie.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2009, 01:48:40 AM
It ate me away when I was a closeted adult, too. You have no idea. It's extremely psychologically tiring and damaging to always live in fear and in a lie.
I don't soubt that this is true.
It was extremely tiring and damaging for Anne Frank to live ina garret.
Still preferable to being killed though.
If there was ever a class of people deserving of asylum in the West, it should be homosexuals living in fundy Islamic countries.