Poll
Question:
Are you a Mac person or a PC person?
Option 1: Mac
Option 2: PC
Option 3: Neither, I still use a can on a string to communicate.
Infographic on what it means (http://mashable.com/2011/04/23/mac-vs-pc-infographic/)
QuoteIn an infographic that's bound to cause arguments and perhaps fistfights, researchers at Hunch placed data from about 700,000 of its website visitors onto a deep illustration that shows just how different users of Macs and PCs are.
They came up with interesting correlations between users' chosen computing platforms and their demographics and personalities, as well as tastes in food, fashion and media.
Did it sort out like a comparison between Tea Party members and liberals? Are PC users geeks and Mac users hipsters, in keeping with common stereotypes? Almost. Mac users are more educated, eat more hummus, prefer modern art over impressionist art, and are 21% more likely than PC users to say that two random people are more alike than different.
Dive into the infographic below (feel free to click the graphic for an enlargement), full of insights and data, drawn from a huge sample. Of course, there are exceptions to every trend. Please let us know in the comments if you think its data is accurate or not.
PC. It says I'm not a pleats wearing hipster. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2011, 10:38:35 AM
PC. It says I'm not a pleats wearing hipster. :P
Don't forget a hummus eating liberal.
I run Windows XP on my Macbook :)
:lol:
Ya'rly.
Hooray! It's non-scientific!
Not really sure what to do with that.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi705.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww57%2Fsirianjazz%2Fmac-pc-motorcycle-777073.jpg&hash=eab0827415d4133938be056efcc7e462314335f9)
PC is better in every way. Yes, even that way.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2011, 10:43:11 AM
Hooray! It's non-scientific!
Quote from: garbon on April 24, 2011, 10:44:46 AM
Not really sure what to do with that.
I thought it was beyond ridiculous (22% more than what?), but figured it was worth sharing nonetheless. YMMV
Quote from: Zeus on April 24, 2011, 11:46:46 AMPC is better in every way. Yes, even that way.
:yes: so much so that its complexity proves the existence of a higher being
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 24, 2011, 10:40:04 AM
I run Windows XP on my Macbook :)
For games, as intended. ;)
My personal choice is a desktop PC. As for laptops, I'd just as well go for a Mac with Windows 7. I simply don't like OS X. I can, however, see why people choose Apple. It's simple, relatively decent hardware and does what it says on the tin.
The PCs main strength is also its biggest weakness; the multitude of hardware configurations possible makes it nigh-on impossible to make drivers, software and even the OS run completely as expected. I like the PC because I can build a system based on what I want it to do, not what Steve Jobs expects me to do.
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 12:27:40 PM
My personal choice is a desktop PC. As for laptops, I'd just as well go for a Mac with Windows 7. I simply don't like OS X. I can, however, see why people choose Apple. It's simple, relatively decent hardware and does what it says on the tin.
The PCs main strength is also its biggest weakness; the multitude of hardware configurations possible makes it nigh-on impossible to make drivers, software and even the OS run completely as expected. I like the PC because I can build a system based on what I want it to do, not what Steve Jobs expects me to do.
So now you're telling me that it
is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Do you know better than Steve Jobs? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
They can have the Model T in any color, so long as it's black. :)
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is in fact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Is Norgy turning into a libertarian?
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Do you know better than Steve Jobs? :rolleyes:
No, I am telling
you that you don't deserve a computer, much less the internet. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Do you know better than Steve Jobs? :rolleyes:
No, I am telling you that you don't deserve a computer, much less the internet. :rolleyes:
Here we go with the crypto-fascist tendencies again. You're turning into more and more of a totalitarian every day. :hmm:
Maybe they'll make a HimmlerOS for you.
I have a PC.
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Do you know better than Steve Jobs? :rolleyes:
No, I am telling you that you don't deserve a computer, much less the internet. :rolleyes:
Here we go with the crypto-fascist tendencies again. You're turning into more and more of a totalitarian every day. :hmm:
A librarytarian totalitarian? :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2011, 02:03:11 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
So now you're telling me that it is infact up to the individual to determine what's best for them.
Do you know better than Steve Jobs? :rolleyes:
No, I am telling you that you don't deserve a computer, much less the internet. :rolleyes:
Here we go with the crypto-fascist tendencies again. You're turning into more and more of a totalitarian every day. :hmm:
A librarytarian totalitarian? :hmm:
A
faux labradorian totalitarian. :hmm:
I have plans for expanding eastwards.
Quote from: Norgy on April 24, 2011, 03:26:40 PM
I have plans for expanding eastwards.
The diet is kaput!
Mac user. I seem to follow the stereotype in all but wine. I love my pinot g. and zinfandel. :Embarrass:
Quote from: merithyn on April 24, 2011, 11:57:59 AM
I thought it was beyond ridiculous (22% more than what?)
Actually, it's pretty clear what they meant. :huh: The only question is whether they really mean % or base points.
My only beef: the analysis lacks the most crucial question/distinction. :homestar:
Neither, based on the infographic's definition of that choice.
Quote
Mac people are 21% more likely than PC people to consider themselves computer-savvy gearheads.
:lol:
Mac people are 21% more likely to be self-delusional, apparently. Where are these gearheads all hiding, and are they all running Debian on their Mac hardware?
On one hand, the Mac preference for a Vespa over a Harley makes me proud not to be one of them, but I can't say much for the PCers' wine choices. :yuk:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 25, 2011, 11:47:52 AM
Quote
Mac people are 21% more likely than PC people to consider themselves computer-savvy gearheads.
:lol:
Mac people are 21% more likely to be self-delusional, apparently. Where are these gearheads all hiding, and are they all running Debian on their Mac hardware?
On one hand, the Mac preference for a Vespa over a Harley makes me proud not to be one of them, but I can't say much for the PCers' wine choices. :yuk:
I donèt see why that could not be the case - in general that is.
Remember who the majority of computer users are - joe average. They go into Best Buy, or Walmart, and buy whatever generic POS PC they have in stock.
If you buy a Mac, youève at least given your computer purchase a bit more thought (since it is still a somewhat unusual purchase), and you have also spent almost double what a PC costs. You may well consider yourself a bit more computer savvy.
That doesnèt mean every Mac user is more computer savvy than every PC user - far from it. But in discussing generalitiesÉ
ŝtupid language settings...
:lol: @ BB
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 25, 2011, 01:10:18 PM
:lol: @ BB
Meh - I have it fixed now, but can't be bothered to go back and edit my post.
And this was typed in Windows XP anyways. <_<
Quote from: Valmy on April 24, 2011, 07:24:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 24, 2011, 10:15:25 AM
prefer modern art over impressionist art
*sputter*
Me too. Although I prefer Impressionist art to AbEx. :x
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2011, 01:08:05 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 25, 2011, 11:47:52 AM
Quote
Mac people are 21% more likely than PC people to consider themselves computer-savvy gearheads.
:lol:
Mac people are 21% more likely to be self-delusional, apparently. Where are these gearheads all hiding, and are they all running Debian on their Mac hardware?
On one hand, the Mac preference for a Vespa over a Harley makes me proud not to be one of them, but I can't say much for the PCers' wine choices. :yuk:
I donèt see why that could not be the case - in general that is.
Remember who the majority of computer users are - joe average. They go into Best Buy, or Walmart, and buy whatever generic POS PC they have in stock.
If you buy a Mac, youève at least given your computer purchase a bit more thought (since it is still a somewhat unusual purchase), and you have also spent almost double what a PC costs. You may well consider yourself a bit more computer savvy.
That doesnèt mean every Mac user is more computer savvy than every PC user - far from it. But in discussing generalitiesÉ
ŝtupid language settings...
Lol wut? The Mac sections at best buy are bigger than the pc section, precisely because it is simpler, and the inability to customize and do things that you can do on a PC would seem to make users less computer savvy, if you ask me.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 25, 2011, 01:32:12 PM
Lol wut? The Mac sections at best buy are bigger than the pc section, precisely because it is simpler, and the inability to customize and do things that you can do on a PC would seem to make users less computer savvy, if you ask me.
On the other hand, the mac demographic tends toward kids who tend to be more tech savvy.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 25, 2011, 01:32:12 PM
Lol wut? The Mac sections at best buy are bigger than the pc section, precisely because it is simpler, and the inability to customize and do things that you can do on a PC would seem to make users less computer savvy, if you ask me.
Having been in a BB today, I'm not certain of your first assertion.
And if you are buying from a store, a Mac and a PC has the exact same ability to customize - none at all.
If you're buying online, if you compare say Apple and Dell, the 'ability to customize' is very similar - customize your RAM and harddrive, with a handful of processor and graphics options thrown in.
The number of PC buyers who build their own, or who get a custom build from a boutique builder, are small. Those people are certainly very "computer savvy", but they are a minority.
I'd think mac users on average will be more tech savvy. They will on average tend to be wealthier and more keen to have the computer that is seen to be cool. This makes for being somewhat tech savvy, more so than the typical person who just gets 'a computer' at least.
PC users of course cover a wide range from the most tech savvy people around down to randomers who don't even know that a mac and a PC are that different and just have a computer for the internet and whatnot.
And of course talking about "on average" means almost nothing.
My parents are Mac users. They have been their entire lives (well, as long as there have been computers to use). My dad works in newspapers, my mom worked in education - both industries with heavy Mac presence.
My father most of all is anything BUT computer savvy however. :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2011, 06:47:42 PM
And of course talking about "on average" means almost nothing.
My parents are Mac users. They have been their entire lives (well, as long as there have been computers to use). My dad works in newspapers, my mom worked in education - both industries with heavy Mac presence.
My father most of all is anything BUT computer savvy however. :lol:
Many of the Mac users at work think they are computer-savvy but aren't. I think that's more representative of what the data is showing us.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 25, 2011, 07:21:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2011, 06:47:42 PM
And of course talking about "on average" means almost nothing.
My parents are Mac users. They have been their entire lives (well, as long as there have been computers to use). My dad works in newspapers, my mom worked in education - both industries with heavy Mac presence.
My father most of all is anything BUT computer savvy however. :lol:
Many of the Mac users at work think they are computer-savvy but aren't. I think that's more representative of what the data is showing us.
As it is self-reported data (and anyways there's no objective way to measure 'computer savvy') I'm not arguing with you on that.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2011, 07:23:48 PM
(and anyways there's no objective way to measure 'computer savvy')
:hmm:
Makes it really hard to grade students in computer science, then.
Quote from: Norgy on April 26, 2011, 12:21:23 PM
:hmm:
Makes it really hard to grade students in computer science, then.
To be fair, our grades are set by milestone tasks, not by any real discrete "aptitude." For example, the grading for my PC support and repair final is going to be:
A - if the computer prints to the network printer
B - if the computer connects to the network
C - if the computer loads windows
D - if the computer POSTs
F - if the computer doesn't even turn on.
It doesn't really do anything to separate out potential "techs" who know how to run network traces and kernel patching from those in the class who are running completely on notes and may still come out underqualified for Best Buy's Geek Squad.
Quote from: Tyr on April 25, 2011, 06:38:35 PM
I'd think mac users on average will be more tech savvy. They will on average tend to be wealthier and more keen to have the computer that is seen to be cool. This makes for being somewhat tech savvy, more so than the typical person who just gets 'a computer' at least.
PC users of course cover a wide range from the most tech savvy people around down to randomers who don't even know that a mac and a PC are that different and just have a computer for the internet and whatnot.
I think that, in the US, its the opposite. People who just have money and a desire to have a technology in their hands tend, i think, to buy Macs. As do people who know a lot about computers and know that only a Mac will meet their professional needs, for sure. But my guess would be that the number of people who buy Macs because of advertising outnumber those who buy them based on need maybe three to one. PC users, though, tend to be people who buy based on knowing why they need a PC and not just a console, and buying PCs means making a lot more choices than buying a Mac does.
So, I'd argue that in the US Mac users are both the top and the bottom of the tech savvy tree and that randomers are as likely to be mac as PC (but even more likely to just get a smart phone).
It doesn't surprise me that Mac owners think they are more savvy than they are. The Mac sold itself explicitly as the platform for the smug, so naturally that's who its users mostly are. I kinda pity those who intelligently purchase Macs, because they get lumped in with the "I'm a Mac" gang.
The calculation is pretty simple: in general, most Mac users are people who would rather trade money for time - owning a PC requires having to be more fiddly, which takes time, but is overall cheaper.
People with more money than time are more likely to have both the negative and positive stereotypes associated with people with more money - more savvy professional on the one hand, and more smug arrogant asshole on the other.
The fanbois who think that one machine is somehow fundamentally better than the other and that everyone who buys the other is either an idiot or a victim-of-marketing sheeple are a tiny minority, sadly overrepresented on the 'net. The types who are actually doing something that requires one machine over the other are an even smaller minority!
The question to ask is "did you seriously consider buying [the other type of computer] before you bought [the type of computer purchased]" for both Mac and PC users. The percentage that answer "yes" is the percentage of savvy users of that type of computer.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:22:23 PM
The question to ask is "did you seriously consider buying [the other type of computer] before you bought [the type of computer purchased]" for both Mac and PC users. The percentage that answer "yes" is the percentage of savvy users of that type of computer.
I'd agree with this.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 26, 2011, 01:32:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:22:23 PM
The question to ask is "did you seriously consider buying [the other type of computer] before you bought [the type of computer purchased]" for both Mac and PC users. The percentage that answer "yes" is the percentage of savvy users of that type of computer.
I'd agree with this.
Does that cover a quick spec/cost comparison?
Every time I look about buying a pc, the price of an equivalent mac is always outrageous.
I can't pick a poll answer here...
I have both Mac & PC's @ home. And a mix of OSX, Win7 and FreeBSD in use on a regular basis. If I throw in what I use @ work, add Gentoo Linux to the mix :)
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
Does that cover a quick spec/cost comparison?
Every time I look about buying a pc, the price of an equivalent mac is always outrageous.
Tell me about it; I looked at the "$500 Gaming PC" article that Beeb linked to over in CCR's thread, and I managed to nickel-and-dime the same spec down all the way to $470. What does the cheapest iMac clock in at again? :P
I confess to not being terribly interested in computers.... But what are these tasks that most of you seem to do that require so much customization of your PC's?
My computer uses include: Microsoft Office, printing stuff, surfing the net, emails, MP3s, pr0nn, video games, movies, and instant message programs.
Any customization I need for these things is extremely limited in both scope and time (e.g. changing resolution, switching to admin mode, etc.)
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 26, 2011, 02:53:02 PM
I confess to not being terribly interested in computers.... But what are these tasks that most of you seem to do that require so much customization of your PC's?
My computer uses include: Microsoft Office, printing stuff, surfing the net, emails, MP3s, pr0nn, video games, movies, and instant message programs.
Any customization I need for these things is extremely limited in both scope and time (e.g. changing resolution, switching to admin mode, etc.)
Games and animation are generally the sticking point (factor in some moderate Adobe Creative Suite use in my case), but some people want a rig that can handle operations like ripping movies and music quickly, as well.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 26, 2011, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
Does that cover a quick spec/cost comparison?
Every time I look about buying a pc, the price of an equivalent mac is always outrageous.
Tell me about it; I looked at the "$500 Gaming PC" article that Beeb linked to over in CCR's thread, and I managed to nickel-and-dime the same spec down all the way to $470. What does the cheapest iMac clock in at again? :P
$2700.
But you can get a Mac Mini for sub $1000.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 26, 2011, 03:24:28 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 26, 2011, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
Does that cover a quick spec/cost comparison?
Every time I look about buying a pc, the price of an equivalent mac is always outrageous.
Tell me about it; I looked at the "$500 Gaming PC" article that Beeb linked to over in CCR's thread, and I managed to nickel-and-dime the same spec down all the way to $470. What does the cheapest iMac clock in at again? :P
$2700.
But you can get a Mac Mini for sub $1000.
:huh:
YOu can get an iMac for a lot less than $2700. Apparently they "start at $1199" in the US.
I own PCs.
Buying a Mac basically says:
"I know enough about computers to know that random Compaqs, HPs, and Gateways off the rack at Best Buy or Wal-Mart are crap, and that Macs are generally quality computers. However, I don't know enough about computers to know that I can get a quality computer that is much better than garbage laptops and desktops sold to the masses without having to pay a 100% premium on the parts just to get the Apple branding."
I'm looking at buying mac laptop again, just because of work.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2011, 05:09:28 PM
I can get a quality computer that is much better than garbage laptops and desktops sold to the masses without having to pay a 100% premium on the parts just to get the Apple branding."
Simply not true.
You find me a PC with equal specs to any Mac that's for sale at half the price of the Mac. It can't be done.
What the hell. I had a quad core,2GB Ram and Gayforce 8600GT 3 years ago for 800 bucks.
Blew the pants off anything that moved. Now it limps along. :weep:
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 05:17:14 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2011, 05:09:28 PM
I can get a quality computer that is much better than garbage laptops and desktops sold to the masses without having to pay a 100% premium on the parts just to get the Apple branding."
Simply not true.
You find me a PC with equal specs to any Mac that's for sale at half the price of the Mac. It can't be done.
Probably not. But I've had these discussions with Mac people before and what happens is you come up with a PC that would have essentially identical benchmarks but it's not the "exact same specs" as a Mac. Maybe even on the whole its specs are better, but because they are different, by even just a bit, they aren't directly comparable.
I'll give it an attempt if you post your system specs, though.
I will give a quick example:
Mac:
2.8 GHz Quad Core CPU
8 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB GPU
$2874
iBUYPOWER X58 Core i7 System:
3.06 GHz Quad Core CPU
12 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1 GB GPU
$1350
I've listed pretty much the most important stuff about the computer. When configuring the iBUYPOWER system I upgraded the PSU to a 1000W one because by default they were still going to let you check out with 450W (probably wouldn't end well with the CPU/GPU on board.)
Where a Mac person would nitpick:
-Apple buys higher quality GPUs!
I'd respond that while different ATI manufacturers do have different build qualities, the iBUYPOWER people have all the major component manufacturers represented.
-Apple buys higher quality motherboards!
I'd respond again that the major Intel / AMD mobo manufacturers are represented by iBUYPOWER, iBUYPOWER has a generally positive reputation and there isn't much evidence of the factual type I have seen to substantiate this sort of difference.
-You didn't compare the exact same specs
You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.
At the end of the day though those are remarkably similar systems with remarkably distance price tags. And it's not some garbage Compaq or HP, it's a custom PC shop that has lots of positive reviews and generally good customer service.
:face:
OVB - I'm not going to bother you with talk about the graphics or motherboards/
But what I AM going to bother you with is the fact you selected an iMac with a built in monitor! 27" if I'm not mistaken. You think that might explain the difference in price?
No, actually the Mac was a Mac Pro, not an iMac at all.
I can't seem to create a link to the custom system I made. Basically I went to www.apple.com, clicked on "Mac" then clicked on "Mac Pro" then selected the base line model with a quad core processor. Then I upgraded the ram from the base 4 GB to 8 GB and that was the only customization I made.
I did not select any of the add ons that were available (including about a dozen different software add-ons, various hardware upgrades offered, primary and secondary displays and et cetera.)
The only thing in the Mac Pro that you don't get automatic with the iBUYPOWER machine is a mouse and keyboard.
I will say this, the iBUYPOWER stuff is going to mostly come with ASUS mother boards, EVGA quality video cards. Those are about as nice as it gets. I don't buy into the theory that Apple has a secret supply base over in China and Taiwan and thus they are able to get the best X58 mother boards in the world, the best ATI video cards in the world or et cetera. They source theirs just like everyone else, as a major manufacturer they can and do get some custom tweaking done on some things (such as the CPUs of their cellular phones) but mainstream mother boards and GPUs? I can guarantee you they buy them from a known vendor overseas, just because they obscure which one specifically doesn't mean it is some secret manufacturer. iBUYPOWER lets you know they're using ASUS, EVGA, sometimes lesser companies but still pretty quality ones. They're definitely higher quality than the way off-brand mobos and GPUs you'll find in a bargain baseman Compaq or HP (although Compaq is technically a bargain basement HP, HP still pumps out lots of shit cheap desktops as well.)
I wouldn't compare an iMac to a iBUYPOWER PC, and I wouldn't compare a Mac Mini to an iBUYPOWER PC.
Why? I wanted to compare desktop to desktop. The iMac and the Mac Mini are both "desktop" machines with notebook parts (check--they have mobile graphics cards, mobile CPUs etc) nothing wrong with that but it makes it difficult to compare apples to apples. A Mac Pro is a desktop and the iBUYPOWER system is a desktop, so the comparison is very straightforward.
Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.
The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors. They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced. It also has EEC memory. Both of which cost far more.
When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Yes. That's what you get in a Mac Pro.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:06:07 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Yes. That's what you get in a Mac Pro.
Why the hell would you bother with that when you can get an i7 that is close performance wise for like $700-800 (or more?) less, then get a stupidly awesome graphics card or something? What could you possibly need that for in a normal home desktop computer that makes it worth the price?
E: Christ...the i7 XTREME or whatever 6 cores with 3.3ghz+ clocks and 12mb L3's are around $1000. The Nehalem quad core Otto had in there looks to be about $1200, although I could be looking at the wrong one.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:07:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:06:07 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Yes. That's what you get in a Mac Pro.
Why the hell would you bother with that when you can get an i7 that is close performance wise for like $700-800 (or more?) less, then get a stupidly awesome graphics card or something? What could you possibly need that for in a normal home desktop computer that makes it worth the price?
That's a whole different argument though.
You can certainly argue that because Apple only has 3 desktop models (Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro), you can not buy the kind of computer that many consumers would find optimal. And I can't argue that - I wish Apple would make a tower with something less than a Xeon (although the Mac Pro is stupidly awesome).
What I *was* arguing was OVB's stupid comment that Apple had a 100% markup. They don't. If you look at equal specs, Apple is generally pretty close to what you can get in the PC world. But Macs are expensive because they use expensive components, not because of pure profit margin.
(and Apple doesn't market the Mac Pro as a 'normal home desktop computer'. They market it as a workstation. For a home desktop they want you to buy an iMac)
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:06:07 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Yes. That's what you get in a Mac Pro.
The Westmere E5620 found in the most recent Mac specs I could find (late 2010) Mac is $389 at Newegg,
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 11:38:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:06:07 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 26, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?
Yes. That's what you get in a Mac Pro.
The Westmere E5620 found in the most recent Mac specs I could find (late 2010) Mac is $389 at Newegg,
Mac Pro specs are confused at the moment. It comes in both Nehalem and Westmere flavours.
http://www.apple.com/macpro/features/processor.html
Which is something I forgot when posting.
I dunno Beeb. I just see absolutely no reason to get, for example, a $2,800 Mac Pro vs. the $1,400 iBUYPOWER thing when it's just for myself (no matter what Apple wants to say, the iMac seems too gimped, and the damn thing starts at almost the same price as that IBUY machine anyway, although to be fair it comes with/is a monitor). I'm sure the Pro is totally awesome, it damn well better be for that kind of coin, but it just really feels like a silly markup when they're putting totally unnecess
Wait...you can get a $389 processor in there? Is that what was in Otto's thing?
Oh it's two of the Westmere's in that one. Starting at $3,500. :wacko:
I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever. I have NEVER had a lack of processing power (even though I have the older, Harpertown Xeon).
But yeah, it's completely overkill as a home machine. And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine). It is designed as a professional workstation.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:59:22 PM
And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine). It is designed as a professional workstation.
This one?
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC511LL/A?mco=MTg1ODA4MDM
I was fooling around with the configuration on that one, but I can't seem to find where to change the graphics card. :(
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 27, 2011, 12:03:54 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:59:22 PM
And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine). It is designed as a professional workstation.
This one?
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC511LL/A?mco=MTg1ODA4MDM
I was fooling around with the configuration on that one, but I can't seem to find where to change the graphics card. :(
Don't think you can. ATI 5750 is standard.
I bought the Mac Pro so I could upgrade the video card - except it took 3 years before a video card was made available by Apple that was worth upgrading to. (eventually went from my 8800GT to a 5770).
Quote from: Barrister on April 27, 2011, 12:10:20 AM
Don't think you can. ATI 5750 is standard.
I bought the Mac Pro so I could upgrade the video card - except it took 3 years before a video card was made available by Apple that was worth upgrading to. (eventually went from my 8800GT to a 5770).
Oh. Well that sucks. I was thinking a 6000 series would go nicely, but was already up to $2,500 anyway with the i7 2.93, 8GB RAM, and Office (I assume $1,000 of that is the monitor). Welp.
So Mac users are more likely to be hipster fucks and BoBos? What else is new?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2011, 06:38:23 PM
I will give a quick example:
Mac:
2.8 GHz Quad Core CPU
8 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB GPU
$2874
iBUYPOWER X58 Core i7 System:
3.06 GHz Quad Core CPU
12 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1 GB GPU
$1350
I've listed pretty much the most important stuff about the computer. When configuring the iBUYPOWER system I upgraded the PSU to a 1000W one because by default they were still going to let you check out with 450W (probably wouldn't end well with the CPU/GPU on board.)
Where a Mac person would nitpick:
-Apple buys higher quality GPUs!
I'd respond that while different ATI manufacturers do have different build qualities, the iBUYPOWER people have all the major component manufacturers represented.
-Apple buys higher quality motherboards!
I'd respond again that the major Intel / AMD mobo manufacturers are represented by iBUYPOWER, iBUYPOWER has a generally positive reputation and there isn't much evidence of the factual type I have seen to substantiate this sort of difference.
-You didn't compare the exact same specs
You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.
At the end of the day though those are remarkably similar systems with remarkably distance price tags. And it's not some garbage Compaq or HP, it's a custom PC shop that has lots of positive reviews and generally good customer service.
As I said, it's money for time. I have no problem believing that you can save hundreds of even over a thousand dollars - if you know what you are doing.
But knowing what you are doing, and sourcing stuff properly, takes time. Personally, I'd rather pay someone else to take that effort for me.
The problem with Apple isn't so much the products (even though they are fail) but the whole religious hysteria you have to embrace.
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2011, 09:27:56 AM
The problem with Apple isn't so much the products (even though they are fail) but the whole religious hysteria you have to embrace.
That part is purely optional (but oh so fun). -_-
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 09:24:37 AM
As I said, it's money for time. I have no problem believing that you can save hundreds of even over a thousand dollars - if you know what you are doing.
But knowing what you are doing, and sourcing stuff properly, takes time. Personally, I'd rather pay someone else to take that effort for me.
Looks like you might be able to pay someone to do the research for you and still have money left over to make up the difference.
Actually, given sites like Languish exist, you could probably get good computer advice for free. :lol:
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2011, 09:27:56 AM
The problem with Apple isn't so much the products (even though they are fail) but the whole religious hysteria you have to embrace.
The notion that anyone ought to
care so much about the branding of a consumer product is fail, no matter which one you purport to care about - or against.
It is like actually giving a shit whether someone orders Coke or Pepsi.
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 10:17:16 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 09:24:37 AM
As I said, it's money for time. I have no problem believing that you can save hundreds of even over a thousand dollars - if you know what you are doing.
But knowing what you are doing, and sourcing stuff properly, takes time. Personally, I'd rather pay someone else to take that effort for me.
Looks like you might be able to pay someone to do the research for you and still have money left over to make up the difference.
Actually, given sites like Languish exist, you could probably get good computer advice for free. :lol:
No doubt - but that would require investing time and effort. For many, it is simply easier to buy an off-the-shelf product that does more or less what you want, even if it's more expensive, or doesn't have as many options (that you are unlikely to use).
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
No doubt - but that would require investing time and effort. For many, it is simply easier to buy an off-the-shelf product that does more or less what you want, even if it's more expensive, or doesn't have as many options (that you are unlikely to use).
I think my message was confused because I added that second sentence.
I was suggesting that you could probably pay someone to tell you what PC to buy and still have money saved, post-purchase, from that of the equivalent Mac. Amount of time expended on personal shopper is probably little. :P
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
No doubt - but that would require investing time and effort. For many, it is simply easier to buy an off-the-shelf product that does more or less what you want, even if it's more expensive, or doesn't have as many options (that you are unlikely to use).
If it really required all that much effort, there wouldn't be so many "Which computer should I buy?" threads. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 27, 2011, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
No doubt - but that would require investing time and effort. For many, it is simply easier to buy an off-the-shelf product that does more or less what you want, even if it's more expensive, or doesn't have as many options (that you are unlikely to use).
If it really required all that much effort, there wouldn't be so many "Which computer should I buy?" threads. :P
It isn't like it is a huge amount of effort - but then, a few hundred bucks isn't a huge amount of cash, depending on who you are.
Gotta look at both sides of the equation.
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 10:40:27 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
No doubt - but that would require investing time and effort. For many, it is simply easier to buy an off-the-shelf product that does more or less what you want, even if it's more expensive, or doesn't have as many options (that you are unlikely to use).
I think my message was confused because I added that second sentence.
I was suggesting that you could probably pay someone to tell you what PC to buy and still have money saved, post-purchase, from that of the equivalent Mac. Amount of time expended on personal shopper is probably little. :P
Yeah, but there is a time component to finding a reliable personal shopper who knows his or her shit.
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:50:55 AM
Yeah, but there is a time component to finding a reliable personal shopper who knows his or her shit.
If one is at the place where it is much simpler to trade money for time on a big ticket item, one should have one retained. ^_^
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 10:58:59 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:50:55 AM
Yeah, but there is a time component to finding a reliable personal shopper who knows his or her shit.
If one is at the place where it is much simpler to trade money for time on a big ticket item, one should have one retained. ^_^
For computers? I only buy one once in a blue moon.
There is a shopper I've used before, but for luxury items to give as gifts (about which I know nothing) ... don't think she knows anything about
computers.
And why should I bother, when I can buy one off the shelf without all the hassle?
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 10:31:53 AM
It is like actually giving a shit whether someone orders Coke or Pepsi.
Unless they're ordering it for you. Pepsi is really bland. :thumbsdown:
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 11:01:47 AM
For computers? I only buy one once in a blue moon.
There is a shopper I've used before, but for luxury items to give as gifts (about which I know nothing) ... don't think she knows anything about computers.
And why should I bother, when I can buy one off the shelf without all the hassle?
Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle. :(
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle. :(
What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 27, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle. :(
What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?
Apparently Apple stores do absolutely tremendous business.
Quote from: Barrister on April 27, 2011, 12:05:05 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 27, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 27, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle. :(
What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?
Apparently Apple stores do absolutely tremendous business.
The word you're looking for is "fabulous".
Using Apple products says "hey look at me, I'm a homosexual moron!". If I want to project that image I can just post on Languish instead.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:59:22 PM
I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever.
Case closed. :bowler:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 27, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?
They're hippies... so yes, yes they are.
Also, shame on you for visiting the Apple store. :(
Quote from: Caliga on April 27, 2011, 12:13:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 11:59:22 PM
I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever.
Case closed. :bowler:
I'm not talking about asthetics though - it looks like a giant cheese grater. :lol:
I'm takling about the internal design of it. It's completely screwless. It has four slide in HD enclosures. The RAM riser cards make installing RAM a breeze. It has wonderful airflow and cooling, and once I got rid of the 8800GT is almost perfectly silent.
Oh, ok. You probably know this, but those features are available on many high-end cases. I have the HD enclosures in mine. RAM risers would be nice (but installing RAM is pretty easy as it is).
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2011, 12:12:38 PM
Using Apple products says "hey look at me, I'm a homosexual moron!". If I want to project that image I can just post on Languish instead.
We prefer the term "post-gender retard."
Quote from: Barrister on April 27, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
I'm takling about the internal design of it. It's completely screwless. It has four slide in HD enclosures. The RAM riser cards make installing RAM a breeze. It has wonderful airflow and cooling, and once I got rid of the 8800GT is almost perfectly silent.
This says everything that needs to be said about the Mac user and "computer-savvy gearheads," IMO.
Quote from: Malthus on April 27, 2011, 09:24:37 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2011, 06:38:23 PM
I will give a quick example:
Mac:
2.8 GHz Quad Core CPU
8 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB GPU
$2874
iBUYPOWER X58 Core i7 System:
3.06 GHz Quad Core CPU
12 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1 GB GPU
$1350
I've listed pretty much the most important stuff about the computer. When configuring the iBUYPOWER system I upgraded the PSU to a 1000W one because by default they were still going to let you check out with 450W (probably wouldn't end well with the CPU/GPU on board.)
Where a Mac person would nitpick:
-Apple buys higher quality GPUs!
I'd respond that while different ATI manufacturers do have different build qualities, the iBUYPOWER people have all the major component manufacturers represented.
-Apple buys higher quality motherboards!
I'd respond again that the major Intel / AMD mobo manufacturers are represented by iBUYPOWER, iBUYPOWER has a generally positive reputation and there isn't much evidence of the factual type I have seen to substantiate this sort of difference.
-You didn't compare the exact same specs
You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.
At the end of the day though those are remarkably similar systems with remarkably distance price tags. And it's not some garbage Compaq or HP, it's a custom PC shop that has lots of positive reviews and generally good customer service.
As I said, it's money for time. I have no problem believing that you can save hundreds of even over a thousand dollars - if you know what you are doing.
But knowing what you are doing, and sourcing stuff properly, takes time. Personally, I'd rather pay someone else to take that effort for me.
I'm a government employee, I have more free time than you could imagine and I don't value it at even a significant fraction of my work time.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 10:32:41 PM
Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.
The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors. They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced. It also has EEC memory. Both of which cost far more.
When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.
I said this earlier:
QuoteYou're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 27, 2011, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2011, 10:32:41 PM
Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.
The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors. They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced. It also has EEC memory. Both of which cost far more.
When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.
I said this earlier:
QuoteYou're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.
So you knew you were comparing apples and oranges then. :mellow:
You can certainly buy PC Xeon workstations. Why don't you try and price one of those out and report back?
Additionally the "Nehalem" processor in the cheapest Mac Pro (the one I configured above) is, I believe, actually an Intel Xeon W3530 "Bloomfield" and retails for around $314.
This Wiki page has more detail: Nehalem microarchitecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_%28microarchitecture%29) just because it says Nehalem does not mean it is a server grade CPU, and the Bloomfield W3530 is, to my knowledge, a desktop CPU.
I believe the server model CPUs start with the letter E, and don't come into play unless you select the "server" model Mac Pro on the far right of the selection screen.
Quote from: Barrister on April 27, 2011, 04:41:18 PM
So you knew you were comparing apples and oranges then. :mellow:
You can certainly buy PC Xeon workstations. Why don't you try and price one of those out and report back?
The price difference on the CPUs in question is only about $50. The W3530 retails for $314 and the Core i7 950 in the IBUYPOWER system retails for $269.
Since the W3530 is a single socket CPU the only real reason it might be a little better at anything is just that Intel has its options turned on for virtualization. As I understand it the difference between many models of Intel CPU is not really in the physical chip but just the options Intel switches on when they ship it, and I even believe if you know much about working with CPUs you can even hack cheaper CPUs and "turn" them into their higher dollar equivalents.
That's neither here nor there, the difference in retail price of the CPUs is $44, so you can deduct $44 from the price of the Mac Pro above if you want. You still have a dramatically more expensive system than the iBUYPOWER one, and all that $44 extra gives you is enhanced performance when doing virtualization and other things no desktop user (even a power user) is going to do. Unless you're running a bonafide server virtualization isn't going to be a concern, and lets be honest people actually doing virtualization aren't doing it using Macs.
I would also add that once you get outside of server-type tasks such as virtualization, the i7-950 actually has a higher clock speed so for stuff desktop users are actually doing it will actually probably outperform the W3530.
Just as I expected, a big long conversation about why the i7 is comparable to a Xeon. :frusty:
Why don't you just do what I asked - find me a comparable system, with the same components, and try and show how it is half the price. It's not as if there aren't plenty of Xeon workstations out there.
The Mac Pro, by the way, while it can be specced out as a server, is normally classified as a workstation, not a desktop.
I'm playing around on dell.com, and I'm getting workstations with a Westmere W3550 for about $2000.
I can't find an exact match though for all specs, but certainly nothing remotely close to half the price.
We're missing a major, major point here. Sure, Apple stocks hideously high-end components in its machines. Now, under what conditions are you actually ever going to see that machine under full load? It's not so much a $2,000 stroller as it is like buying a tractor trailer to move one couch, especially when you consider that the operational lifetime of a Mac isn't significantly longer than a PC (in the case of the MacBook Pros, it can actually be less due to piss-poor cooling design).
A lot of the hype is also brute-force "solutions" to problems that aren't really solved. A badly-threaded application is going to run slow on either an AMD Athlon II X4 640 (a budget processor- can be got for about $100) or an Intel Xeon E5492.
Finally, Apple's been guilty of screw-ups that "performance" PC-builders have been making since the advent of ATX and PnP- putting together components that don't work together. The girlfriend's MBP had to go back to Apple four times with numerous threats of no coverage for what turned out to be a hacky, glitchy attempt to SLi two incompatible nVidia GPUs (which weren't recalled, despite the same problem resulting in a recall of iMacs with the same chipset).
I'd actually be willing to give Apple a shot if they just learned one critical lesson: finesse usually beats brute force where computers are concerned (and extends operational lifetime, to boot).
Quote from: Barrister on April 27, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
Just as I expected, a big long conversation about why the i7 is comparable to a Xeon. :frusty:
Why don't you just do what I asked - find me a comparable system, with the same components, and try and show how it is half the price. It's not as if there aren't plenty of Xeon workstations out there.
The Mac Pro, by the way, while it can be specced out as a server, is normally classified as a workstation, not a desktop.
Well, like I said, the price difference is known, you can make an adjustment for there.
Case: NZXT Phantom Full Tower (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146074&Tpk=N82E16811146074) $139.99
Motherboard: Asus P6T WS PRO LGA 1366 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131357) $279.99
Cpu: Intel Xeon W3530 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117243&Tpk=N82E16819117243) $314.99
Memory: 8 GB Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139262) $139.99
GPU: ATI Radeon 5770 1 GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121363&Tpk=N82E16814121363) $139.99
HDD: 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533) $89.99
PSU: Rosewill 1000W Continuous PSU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182188) $129.99
Optical: CD/DVD Burner (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827118039) $20.99
Total: $1255.92
I don't need to search the entire internet to find a custom PC builder that will build a system for around this price. Even assuming a nice markup (iBUYPOWER systems go for $200-300 more than raw components) we're still stacking it up against a $2800 Mac Pro.
And the issue of the i7 versus the Xeon is very salient because it high lights Apple's business model.
Apple isn't in the business of giving you great value for your money, they are in the business of creating targeted niches where they can create massive profits. (That's not bad by the way, I own stock in Apple and most of you do as well through mutual funds or pension systems.)
If I just want a nice, well made, powerful desktop PC Apple can't help me.
They can give me a nice All-in-One, with a great display, but built with notebook parts.
They can give me a small form factor PC, for a reasonable price, but built with notebook parts.
They can give me a workstation that almost fits the bill, but then they slap a server processor in it and jack the price up 100% over materials. As a consumer who isn't looking to get a multi-CPU system, buying a Mac Pro workstation with one CPU (their entry model) and a nice graphics card it's obvious I'm wanting a PC for home personal use. Why do I need an extra CPU socket in the mobo, and a server processor? I'd much rather you slap an i7 in there and knock $100 off the price since you don't have to furnish me with a multi-socket mother board and a server CPU.
I should also say I'm not anti-Apple at all.
Markets where I've considered buying Apple (or have bought Apple):
Notebooks: A market with a lot of shady operators. For a nice personal laptop Apple machines are expensive but notebooks as a whole charge you a nice premium if you want power and quality, good systems from Sager, Asus, even top end Lenovo's aren't much cheaper than the Apple systems and many of them are weaker in several areas (lower resolution displays, weaker warranty plans.)
Small Form Factor PC: I'm currently considering buying a Mac Mini to use as a home media PC, and I think that's a very good niche for those. Apple TV just isn't what I'd be looking for, and the Mac Mini is more robust and supported than a lot of these fly by night HTPC that I've seen crop up.
Cellular Phones: iPhones are cool
MP3 Players: I still have my original iPod somewhere...
I'm just saying for desktop PCs I don't feel Apple hits the target very well on price or offerings.
Jay Leno was asked once why he doesn't own any Ferraris (he's a renowned car collector--and he actually does have like one Ferrari I think he bought from a private seller.) He said he went into a Ferrari dealership back when he first become really famous, and the dealers essentially tried to push all kinds of stuff on him and jack up the price (assuming he was rich and had no sense.) So as Leno told it to the fan asking him about why he doesn't own any Ferraris, he said "just because I'm wealthy doesn't mean I should have to overpay for a car."
Fundamentally I don't care if we're talking about a $1400 difference, a $200 difference, or a $100,000 difference, if the premium over what I feel is the appropriate price is some 100% I just have a hard time justifying it. I've never bought a $10 beer.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 27, 2011, 04:46:54 PM
Additionally the "Nehalem" processor in the cheapest Mac Pro (the one I configured above) is, I believe, actually an Intel Xeon W3530 "Bloomfield" and retails for around $314.
This Wiki page has more detail: Nehalem microarchitecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_%28microarchitecture%29) just because it says Nehalem does not mean it is a server grade CPU, and the Bloomfield W3530 is, to my knowledge, a desktop CPU.
I believe the server model CPUs start with the letter E, and don't come into play unless you select the "server" model Mac Pro on the far right of the selection screen.
A Xeon is a Xeon, as far as the core chip functionality goes.
Intel's Xeon nomenclature goes something like this:
W - workstation (that is, single socket board)
E - low-power, multi-socket
X - high-power, multi-socket
Multi-socket chips cost more because they include additional components to enable the inter-socket communications.