Mac or PC? And what does it say about you?

[Barrister]

Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle.

What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?

Apparently Apple stores do absolutely tremendous business.

[The Brain]

Sure, why not? Also, I always find the Apple store a hassle.

What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?

Apparently Apple stores do absolutely tremendous business.

The word you're looking for is "fabulous".

[The Brain]

Using Apple products says "hey look at me, I'm a homosexual moron!". If I want to project that image I can just post on Languish instead.

[Caliga]

I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever.

Case closed.

[Caliga]

What I don't understand is how they can afford so many employees in those places. Every time I've been to the Apple store, the employees outnumber the customers 2 to 1. Are they paying them in candy and rainbows?

They're hippies... so yes, yes they are.

Also, shame on you for visiting the Apple store.

[Barrister]

I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever.

Case closed.

I'm not talking about asthetics though - it looks like a giant cheese grater.

I'm takling about the internal design of it.  It's completely screwless.  It has four slide in HD enclosures.  The RAM riser cards make installing RAM a breeze.  It has wonderful airflow and cooling, and once I got rid of the 8800GT is almost perfectly silent.

[Caliga]

Oh, ok.  You probably know this, but those features are available on many high-end cases.  I have the HD enclosures in mine.  RAM risers would be nice (but installing RAM is pretty easy as it is).

[Eddie Teach]

Using Apple products says "hey look at me, I'm a homosexual moron!". If I want to project that image I can just post on Languish instead.

We prefer the term "post-gender retard."

[grumbler]

I'm takling about the internal design of it.  It's completely screwless.  It has four slide in HD enclosures.  The RAM riser cards make installing RAM a breeze.  It has wonderful airflow and cooling, and once I got rid of the 8800GT is almost perfectly silent.

This says everything that needs to be said about the Mac user and "computer-savvy gearheads," IMO.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I will give a quick example:

Mac:

2.8 GHz Quad Core CPU
8 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB GPU

$2874

iBUYPOWER X58 Core i7 System:

3.06 GHz Quad Core CPU
12 GB Ram
1 TB 7200 RPM HDD
ATI Radeon HD 5770 1 GB GPU

$1350

I've listed pretty much the most important stuff about the computer. When configuring the iBUYPOWER system I upgraded the PSU to a 1000W one because by default they were still going to let you check out with 450W (probably wouldn't end well with the CPU/GPU on board.)

Where a Mac person would nitpick:

-Apple buys higher quality GPUs!

I'd respond that while different ATI manufacturers do have different build qualities, the iBUYPOWER people have all the major component manufacturers represented.

-Apple buys higher quality motherboards!

I'd respond again that the major Intel / AMD mobo manufacturers are represented by iBUYPOWER, iBUYPOWER has a generally positive reputation and there isn't much evidence of the factual type I have seen to substantiate this sort of difference.

-You didn't compare the exact same specs

You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.

At the end of the day though those are remarkably similar systems with remarkably distance price tags. And it's not some garbage Compaq or HP, it's a custom PC shop that has lots of positive reviews and generally good customer service.

As I said, it's money for time. I have no problem believing that you can save hundreds of even over a thousand dollars - if you know what you are doing.

But knowing what you are doing, and sourcing stuff properly, takes time. Personally, I'd rather pay someone else to take that effort for me.

I'm a government employee, I have more free time than you could imagine and I don't value it at even a significant fraction of my work time.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.

The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors.  They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced.  It also has EEC memory.  Both of which cost far more.

When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.

I said this earlier:

You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.

[Barrister]

Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.

The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors.  They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced.  It also has EEC memory.  Both of which cost far more.

When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.

I said this earlier:

You're right, you can't configure the iBUYPOWER system in question for 8GB of ram, it's 6 or 12. In the real world 6-8 is by far more than most anyone, even serious gamers, would need. 12 GB is overkill. The CPU isn't the same, it is a core i7 while all Mac Pros come with Xeon Nehalem processors.

So you knew you were comparing apples and oranges then.

You can certainly buy PC Xeon workstations.  Why don't you try and price one of those out and report back?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Additionally the "Nehalem" processor in the cheapest Mac Pro (the one I configured above) is, I believe, actually an Intel Xeon W3530 "Bloomfield" and retails for around $314.

This Wiki page has more detail: Nehalem microarchitecture just because it says Nehalem does not mean it is a server grade CPU, and the Bloomfield W3530 is, to my knowledge, a desktop CPU.

I believe the server model CPUs start with the letter E, and don't come into play unless you select the "server" model Mac Pro on the far right of the selection screen.

[OttoVonBismarck]

So you knew you were comparing apples and oranges then.

You can certainly buy PC Xeon workstations.  Why don't you try and price one of those out and report back?

The price difference on the CPUs in question is only about $50. The W3530 retails for $314 and the Core i7 950 in the IBUYPOWER system retails for $269.

Since the W3530 is a single socket CPU the only real reason it might be a little better at anything is just that Intel has its options turned on for virtualization. As I understand it the difference between many models of Intel CPU is not really in the physical chip but just the options Intel switches on when they ship it, and I even believe if you know much about working with CPUs you can even hack cheaper CPUs and "turn" them into their higher dollar equivalents.

That's neither here nor there, the difference in retail price of the CPUs is $44, so you can deduct $44 from the price of the Mac Pro above if you want. You still have a dramatically more expensive system than the iBUYPOWER one, and all that $44 extra gives you is enhanced performance when doing virtualization and other things no desktop user (even a power user) is going to do. Unless you're running a bonafide server virtualization isn't going to be a concern, and lets be honest people actually doing virtualization aren't doing it using Macs.

I would also add that once you get outside of server-type tasks such as virtualization, the i7-950 actually has a higher clock speed so for stuff desktop users are actually doing it will actually probably outperform the W3530.

[Barrister]

Just as I expected, a big long conversation about why the i7 is comparable to a Xeon.

Why don't you just do what I asked - find me a comparable system, with the same components, and try and show how it is half the price.  It's not as if there aren't plenty of Xeon workstations out there.

The Mac Pro, by the way, while it can be specced out as a server, is normally classified as a workstation, not a desktop.