Mac or PC? And what does it say about you?

[Barrister]

OVB - I'm not going to bother you with talk about the graphics or motherboards/

But what I AM going to bother you with is the fact you selected an iMac with a built in monitor!  27" if I'm not mistaken.  You think that might explain the difference in price?

[OttoVonBismarck]

No, actually the Mac was a Mac Pro, not an iMac at all.

I can't seem to create a link to the custom system I made. Basically I went to www.apple.com, clicked on "Mac" then clicked on "Mac Pro" then selected the base line model with a quad core processor. Then I upgraded the ram from the base 4 GB to 8 GB and that was the only customization I made.

I did not select any of the add ons that were available (including about a dozen different software add-ons, various hardware upgrades offered, primary and secondary displays and et cetera.)

The only thing in the Mac Pro that you don't get automatic with the iBUYPOWER machine is a mouse and keyboard.

I will say this, the iBUYPOWER stuff is going to mostly come with ASUS mother boards, EVGA quality video cards. Those are about as nice as it gets. I don't buy into the theory that Apple has a secret supply base over in China and Taiwan and thus they are able to get the best X58 mother boards in the world, the best ATI video cards in the world or et cetera. They source theirs just like everyone else, as a major manufacturer they can and do get some custom tweaking done on some things (such as the CPUs of their cellular phones) but mainstream mother boards and GPUs? I can guarantee you they buy them from a known vendor overseas, just because they obscure which one specifically doesn't mean it is some secret manufacturer. iBUYPOWER lets you know they're using ASUS, EVGA, sometimes lesser companies but still pretty quality ones. They're definitely higher quality than the way off-brand mobos and GPUs you'll find in a bargain baseman Compaq or HP (although Compaq is technically a bargain basement HP, HP still pumps out lots of shit cheap desktops as well.)

I wouldn't compare an iMac to a iBUYPOWER PC, and I wouldn't compare a Mac Mini to an iBUYPOWER PC.

Why? I wanted to compare desktop to desktop. The iMac and the Mac Mini are both "desktop" machines with notebook parts (check--they have mobile graphics cards, mobile CPUs etc) nothing wrong with that but it makes it difficult to compare apples to apples. A Mac Pro is a desktop and the iBUYPOWER system is a desktop, so the comparison is very straightforward.

[Barrister]

Okay then, you have a different, yet equally serious, problem with your comparison.

The Mac Pro (which I know very well, since I own one) has Xeon workstation processors.  They are not comparable to the consumer Core i7 you specced.  It also has EEC memory.  Both of which cost far more.

When I specced out my Mac Pro in 2008, I found that if you looked at a Windows Xeon workstation with identical specs the price was within $100.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here? 

[Barrister]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?

Yes.  That's what you get in a Mac Pro.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?

Yes.  That's what you get in a Mac Pro.

Why the hell would you bother with that when you can get an i7 that is close performance wise for like $700-800 (or more?) less, then get a stupidly awesome graphics card or something?  What could you possibly need that for in a normal home desktop computer that makes it worth the price? 

E: Christ...the i7 XTREME or whatever 6 cores with 3.3ghz+ clocks and 12mb L3's are around $1000.  The Nehalem quad core Otto had in there looks to be about $1200, although I could be looking at the wrong one.

[Barrister]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?

Yes.  That's what you get in a Mac Pro.

Why the hell would you bother with that when you can get an i7 that is close performance wise for like $700-800 (or more?) less, then get a stupidly awesome graphics card or something?  What could you possibly need that for in a normal home desktop computer that makes it worth the price?

That's a whole different argument though.

You can certainly argue that because Apple only has 3 desktop models (Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro), you can not buy the kind of computer that many consumers would find optimal.  And I can't argue that - I wish Apple would make a tower with something less than a Xeon (although the Mac Pro is stupidly awesome).

What I *was* arguing was OVB's stupid comment that Apple had a 100% markup.  They don't.  If you look at equal specs, Apple is generally pretty close to what you can get in the PC world.  But Macs are expensive because they use expensive components, not because of pure profit margin.

(and Apple doesn't market the Mac Pro as a 'normal home desktop computer'.  They market it as a workstation.  For a home desktop they want you to buy an iMac)

[grumbler]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?

Yes.  That's what you get in a Mac Pro.

The Westmere E5620 found in the most recent Mac specs I could find (late 2010) Mac is $389 at Newegg,

[Barrister]

Wait...are we talking about the ~$1,000+ Xeon Nehalem's here?

Yes.  That's what you get in a Mac Pro.

The Westmere E5620 found in the most recent Mac specs I could find (late 2010) Mac is $389 at Newegg,

Mac Pro specs are confused at the moment.  It comes in both Nehalem and Westmere flavours.

http://www.apple.com/macpro/features/processor.html

Which is something I forgot when posting.

[MadBurgerMaker]

I dunno Beeb.  I just see absolutely no reason to get, for example, a $2,800 Mac Pro vs. the $1,400 iBUYPOWER thing when it's just for myself (no matter what Apple wants to say, the iMac seems too gimped, and the damn thing starts at almost the same price as that IBUY machine anyway, although to be fair it comes with/is a monitor).  I'm sure the Pro is totally awesome, it damn well better be for that kind of coin, but it just really feels like a silly markup when they're putting totally unnecess

Wait...you can get a $389 processor in there?  Is that what was in Otto's thing?

Oh it's two of the Westmere's in that one.  Starting at $3,500.   

[Barrister]

I think my Mac Pro is pretty damn cool - it has the nicest case I have ever seen, ever.  I have NEVER had a lack of processing power (even though I have the older, Harpertown Xeon).

But yeah, it's completely overkill as a home machine.  And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine).  It is designed as a professional workstation.

[MadBurgerMaker]

And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine).  It is designed as a professional workstation.

This one? 

http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC511LL/A?mco=MTg1ODA4MDM

I was fooling around with the configuration on that one, but I can't seem to find where to change the graphics card. 

[Barrister]

And if I had to buy a new Mac I'd probably buy the new quad-core iMac (which didn't exist in 2008 when I bought this machine).  It is designed as a professional workstation.

This one? 

http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC511LL/A?mco=MTg1ODA4MDM

I was fooling around with the configuration on that one, but I can't seem to find where to change the graphics card. 

Don't think you can.  ATI 5750 is standard.

I bought the Mac Pro so I could upgrade the video card - except it took 3 years before a video card was made available by Apple that was worth upgrading to.  (eventually went from my 8800GT to a 5770).

[MadBurgerMaker]

Don't think you can.  ATI 5750 is standard.

I bought the Mac Pro so I could upgrade the video card - except it took 3 years before a video card was made available by Apple that was worth upgrading to.  (eventually went from my 8800GT to a 5770).

Oh.  Well that sucks.  I was thinking a 6000 series would go nicely, but was already up to $2,500 anyway with the i7 2.93, 8GB RAM, and Office (I assume $1,000 of that is the monitor).  Welp.

[Syt]

So Mac users are more likely to be hipster fucks and BoBos? What else is new?