I leave it to posters wittier than I to take advantage of this. -_-
http://mormontimes.com/arts_entertainment/books/?id=13326
Quote
Mormons like science fiction and fantasy -- symposium at BYU
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret News
Saturday, Feb. 13, 2010
PROVO, Utah -- Science fiction and fantasy stories are popular among readers who are also members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as demonstrated by statistical evidence, a panel of writers and editors said Friday.
The panelists expressed their opinions on why so many Mormon authors are writing in the genre, at the 28th annual Life, the Universe and Everything 28: Marion K. Smith Symposium on Science Fiction & Fantasy, a three-day conference at Brigham Young University.
Book sales of that kind of fiction are disproportionately higher in Utah than other states, fiction writer Brandon Sanderson said. Additionally many of the LDS fiction writers are from Utah.
"We're reading it a lot, so there will be more writers," he said.
Sanderson was one of four panelists at a symposium "Why Mormons and Fantasy" that explored the explosion of successful young LDS writers in the genre.
While Utah is rich in science fiction and fantasy interest, other religions oppose it.
Sanderson described the Bible Belt as a wasteland for that kind of fiction, except for the larger cities. A published science fiction and fantasy author, Sanderson also teaches a section of creative writing at BYU.
"If I tell you it's not true, then I can have as much fun with it as I want," panelist and author Laura Bingham said. Bingham recently published her first novel, "Alvor."
Mormons are not threatened by it because it jells with the religion's teachings that God created and populated many worlds, Sanderson said. It allows writers to "play god" while world-building in fiction.
Fantasy writers C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien are not well-accepted by other faiths, "which shocked me," while Lewis is often quoted by Mormon general authorities, Sanderson said. Also, the LDS culture is one of education, which produces a plethora of readers.
"They tend to gravitate to science fiction," he said.
Science fiction gives LDS authors an opportunity to discuss their values, good and evil and the result of choices, Lisa Mangum, a book editor with Deseret Book said. They can do it without being preachy, Bingham said.
Her audience isn't necessarily LDS readers, but instead young people who may have an unpleasant home life. It's a way of reaching them without preaching to them, she said, which wouldn't work with strict LDS fiction.
Reading and acting out science fiction and fantasy stories was a safe way to rebel, while being non-threatening to the church or parents, Sanderson said, describing his rebellion as a teenager.
"Our parents didn't get it and we did," he said.
Fantasy fiction is a way to deliver a "philosophical payload" without frightening off readers, moderator and short-fiction writer Scott Parkin said. However, the largest group of writers in the genre is predominately atheists and agnostics, while Jewish writers are also in large number, Sanderson said.
LDS writers, however, aren't threatened by their religion and can remain faithful to the church while they explore various ideas, Bingham said.
It used to be the Jews, but multiple wives allowed the LDSers to out breed them.
Isaac Asimov, Robert Silverberg, and Judith Merrill are spinning in their graves. Harlan Ellison promises that publication of The Last Dangerous Visions will restore the Jews to the top. David Brin doesn't care about it, and Harry Turtledove doesn't know about it.
Escapism is required when your real life is Mormon and craptacular.
I read a story recently decrying the lack of Jews in the fantasy genre while being very well represented in sci-fi. Interesting quips in there about Tolkien's answer to the Nazi publishers who were vetting The Hobbit for publishing in Germany. He schooled them in what an Aryan really was. I should find that again.
I'm trying to figure out if I became aware Card was a crazy Mormon before I realized his more recent writing was shit.
Quote from: Faeelin on March 08, 2010, 09:30:06 PM
I'm trying to figure out if I became aware Card was a crazy Mormon before I realized his more recent writing was shit.
His first Ender book came with a foreword saying he wrote it in the seminar or doing missionary stuff somewhere, so I was sort of prepared.
One of my favourite books still.
I think there is a connection between the "rugged individualism" theme in a lot of sci-fi and tendency of Mormons to hoard a years worth of food in their basements.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 09, 2010, 01:34:27 AM
I think there is a connection between the "rugged individualism" theme in a lot of sci-fi and tendency of Mormons to hoard a years worth of food in their basements.
But the ruggededest rugged individualist that preceded the others, Heinlein, wasn't a Mormon at all, was he?
Quote from: Lucidor on March 09, 2010, 01:38:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 09, 2010, 01:34:27 AM
I think there is a connection between the "rugged individualism" theme in a lot of sci-fi and tendency of Mormons to hoard a years worth of food in their basements.
But the ruggededest rugged individualist that preceded the others, Heinlein, wasn't a Mormon at all, was he?
I don't think so. But then, most people who actually go into space aren't "rugged individualists". Space travel is very much a team activity.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 08, 2010, 09:17:30 PM
Escapism is required when your real life is Mormon and craptacular.
I read a story recently decrying the lack of Jews in the fantasy genre while being very well represented in sci-fi. Interesting quips in there about Tolkien's answer to the Nazi publishers who were vetting The Hobbit for publishing in Germany. He schooled them in what an Aryan really was. I should find that again.
The gay black guys from 300, right?
Quote from: LucidorBut the ruggededest rugged individualist that preceded the others, Heinlein, wasn't a Mormon at all, was he?
Heinlein always bugged me. He hated the state, but loved group sex. Isn't it obvious that group sex should be provided
by the state? I think you'll agree.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 09, 2010, 02:15:18 AM
Heinlein always bugged me. He hated the state, but loved group sex. Isn't it obvious that group sex should be provided by the state? I think you'll agree.
:lol:
Quote from: Ideologue on March 09, 2010, 02:15:18 AMIsn't it obvious that group sex should be provided by the state? I think you'll agree.
No, it should be dictated by free market forces. ^_^
Is it any big surprise, the book of Mormons is little more than 19th century science fiction... ;)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 08, 2010, 09:17:30 PM
Escapism is required when your real life is Mormon and craptacular.
I read a story recently decrying the lack of Jews in the fantasy genre while being very well represented in sci-fi. Interesting quips in there about Tolkien's answer to the Nazi publishers who were vetting The Hobbit for publishing in Germany. He schooled them in what an Aryan really was. I should find that again.
Dear Sirs,
Thankyou for your letter..... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J.R.R. Tolkien
:cool:
The man rocked. What else can be said?
I'm not surprised, what with their space god etc.
Quote from: citizen k on March 09, 2010, 02:49:16 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 09, 2010, 02:15:18 AMIsn't it obvious that group sex should be provided by the state? I think you'll agree.
No, it should be dictated by free market forces. ^_^
It already is, in a way. By the guy the brings the most coke to the party.
Quote from: grumbler on March 08, 2010, 08:56:38 PM
It used to be the Jews, but multiple wives allowed the LDSers to out breed them.
Isaac Asimov, Robert Silverberg, and Judith Merrill are spinning in their graves. Harlan Ellison promises that publication of The Last Dangerous Visions will restore the Jews to the top. David Brin doesn't care about it, and Harry Turtledove doesn't know about it.
Harry Turtledove doesn't know a lot of things.
Quote from: Lucidor on March 09, 2010, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on March 08, 2010, 09:30:06 PM
I'm trying to figure out if I became aware Card was a crazy Mormon before I realized his more recent writing was shit.
His first Ender book came with a foreword saying he wrote it in the seminar or doing missionary stuff somewhere, so I was sort of prepared.
One of my favourite books still.
Eh. You can be a Mormon and not believe that Obama is launching a bid to turn America into a one party state using youth corps and the 2010 census as Card does.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on March 09, 2010, 04:17:11 AM
Dear Sirs,
Thankyou for your letter..... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J.R.R. Tolkien
Tolkien is the man. That was a righteous smackdown. :D
It must have pissed him off no end that the Nazis tainted the field of Germanic mythology worse than a whole legion of Timmays high on a mixture of anime schoolgirls, Turtledove, and cocaine. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 09:46:27 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on March 09, 2010, 04:17:11 AM
Dear Sirs,
Thankyou for your letter..... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J.R.R. Tolkien
Tolkien is the man. That was a righteous smackdown. :D
It must have pissed him off no end that the Nazis tainted the field of Germanic mythology worse than a whole legion of Timmays high on a mixture of anime schoolgirls, Turtledove, and cocaine. :D
Interesting as well that he notes that he is an "English subject" and served in an "English Army."
The hundreds of thousands of non-English who served in that army would probably not be pleased to discover that they didn't count.
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 10:03:54 AM
Interesting as well that he notes that he is an "English subject" and served in an "English Army."
The hundreds of thousands of non-English who served in that army would probably not be pleased to discover that they didn't count.
Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? :huh:
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? :huh:
Huh? There hasn't been an English Army since 1707! The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.
If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 11:49:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? :huh:
Huh? There hasn't been an English Army since 1707! The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.
If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).
Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 11:49:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? :huh:
Huh? There hasn't been an English Army since 1707! The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.
If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).
Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.
Oh, that would most certainly be a slight - and a well deserved one at that.
Fucking rebels. They were always worthless soldiers.
I see a stick in the mud.
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 12:01:44 PM
Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.
I think you completely miss the point. Tolkien is obviously using "English" where a more considered man would have used "British." For a man of his times and prejudices, this is entirely understandable: he probably
does think British and English are the same thing, and that there is an English Army which has some odds and sods from Ireland, Scotland, Nepal, and the other fringes of the empire.
While it is perfectly natural to idolize Tolkien as a paragon for our times, it is probably better to recognize that he was a creature of his time, not ours. And in his time, English meant just that, to an Englishman.
BTW, has anyone ever heard anyone refer to themselves, unselfconsciously, as a "Yank?" I never have. I am still waiting for my first German who unselfconsciously refers to himself or herself as a "Kraut."
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 12:01:44 PM
Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.
I think you completely miss the point. Tolkien is obviously using "English" where a more considered man would have used "British." For a man of his times and prejudices, this is entirely understandable: he probably does think British and English are the same thing, and that there is an English Army which has some odds and sods from Ireland, Scotland, Nepal, and the other fringes of the empire.
While it is perfectly natural to idolize Tolkien as a paragon for our times, it is probably better to recognize that he was a creature of his time, not ours. And in his time, English meant just that, to an Englishman.
To my mind, that letter was a righteous smackdown, and quibbling about his use of "English" is missing the point about as far as it can be missed.
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 12:55:52 PM
To my mind, that letter was a righteous smackdown, and quibbling about his use of "English" is missing the point about as far as it can be missed.
To my mind, the letter was a righteous smackdown, and remains so even when you note that the man was not without his own faults. One can hold a different opinion than you and still not be "missing the point about as far as it can be missed" (especially since the point is about racism and closed-mindedness).
Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be good. In fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 01:16:28 PM
In fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.
In your opinion. :)
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 01:16:28 PM
In fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.
In your opinion. :)
Of course. That goes without saying. :)
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 02:26:01 PM
Of course. That goes without saying. :)
Not when you say "In fact". :(
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 01:16:28 PMIn fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.
You have certainly displayed your own depth and interest as a historical character in this thread.
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 02:28:40 PM
Not when you say "In fact". :(
Of course when I say "in fact." That is a statement of opinion about the reality of something.
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 02:48:47 PM
Of course when I say "in fact." That is a statement of opinion about the reality of something.
But it isn't the truth. :(
Quote from: Jacob on March 09, 2010, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 01:16:28 PMIn fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.
You have certainly displayed your own depth and interest as a historical character in this thread.
Well, I have read his letters and a biography of him, so perhaps I am more aware of the flaws in his character than are those who merely read his works.
I don't see why anyone would get upset with my pointing out that there are British people other than the English, even though some Englishmen make it sound as though that was not true.
Though i am not sure what "I" have to do with this issue in particular. Mine is a purely intellectual position, which would be held, I think, by anyone possessing the knowledge that I possess.
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 02:48:47 PM
Of course when I say "in fact." That is a statement of opinion about the reality of something.
But it isn't the truth. :(
It isn't true that this is my opinion? :(
Didn't know that. :Embarrass:
What is my opinion, then?
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:02:25 PM
It isn't true that this is my opinion? :(
Didn't know that. :Embarrass:
What is my opinion, then?
I'm not sure. Whatever it is, though, it is likely to be horrible. :(
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:00:43 PM
I don't see why anyone would get upset with my pointing out that there are British people other than the English, even though some Englishmen make it sound as though that was not true.
No one really cared.
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 03:05:20 PM
No one really cared.
Malthus and Jake are not no one. :cool:
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:09:04 PM
Malthus and Jake are not no one. :cool:
I meant about your insight. We found it irrelevant and tedious.
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 03:33:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:09:04 PM
Malthus and Jake are not no one. :cool:
I meant about your insight. We found it irrelevant and tedious.
I was not aiming my comments at either you or the mouse in your pocket, so feel free to spare yourself the time necessary to provide the feedback. :hug:
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:37:06 PM
I was not aiming my comments at either you or the mouse in your pocket, so feel free to spare yourself the time necessary to provide the feedback. :hug:
I've only keys in my pocket. :)
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:37:06 PM
I was not aiming my comments at either you or the mouse in your pocket, so feel free to spare yourself the time necessary to provide the feedback. :hug:
I've only keys in my pocket. :)
Sorry to hear that. I have keys, cash, and all kinds of good stuff in mine.
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:39:03 PM
Sorry to hear that. I have keys, cash, and all kinds of good stuff in mine.
I left my wallet at home. :shrugs:
When we are down to discussing the relative contents of pockets, I think it is fair to say the thread is done. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 03:48:34 PM
When we are down to discussing the relative contents of pockets, I think it is fair to say the thread is done. :lol:
What if we were up to discussing the contents of relative pockets?
I have nothing in my pocket. This is because I'm not wearing any pants.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 09, 2010, 03:51:58 PM
I have nothing in my pocket. This is because I'm not wearing any pants.
I see London, I see France...:o
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 03:05:20 PM
No one really cared.
Malthus and Jake are not no one. :cool:
I didn't care either, so that leaves Malthus.
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:00:43 PMWell, I have read his letters and a biography of him, so perhaps I am more aware of the flaws in his character than are those who merely read his works.
And we have, god help us, read most of your posts here on languish :hug:
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 03:50:04 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 03:48:34 PM
When we are down to discussing the relative contents of pockets, I think it is fair to say the thread is done. :lol:
What if we were up to discussing the contents of relative pockets?
Well, lets see ...
- wallet
-keys
-lip balm
-change pouch
-swiss army knife
-half pack of Halls
... I carry too much stuff in my pockets. :(
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 03:58:41 PM
Well, lets see ...
- wallet
-keys
-lip balm
-change pouch
-swiss army knife
-half pack of Halls
... I carry too much stuff in my pockets. :(
Get a purse already, ffs.
Quote from: Jacob on March 09, 2010, 03:55:08 PM
I didn't care either, so that leaves Malthus.
oh. :Embarrass: I fell for a troll. My bad.
Edit: Not gonna fall for the follow-up troll, though. See, I'm learning! :genius:
Quote from: garbon on March 09, 2010, 04:26:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 03:58:41 PM
Well, lets see ...
- wallet
-keys
-lip balm
-change pouch
-swiss army knife
-half pack of Halls
... I carry too much stuff in my pockets. :(
Get a purse already, ffs.
Shit, I already carry too much stuff. If my wife is anything to go by, carrying a purse would make that ten times worse. :lol:
Quote from: Jacob on March 09, 2010, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 09, 2010, 03:00:43 PMWell, I have read his letters and a biography of him, so perhaps I am more aware of the flaws in his character than are those who merely read his works.
And we have, god help us, read most of your posts here on languish :hug:
You have? I'm sorry.
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 04:47:34 PM
Shit, I already carry too much stuff. If my wife is anything to go by, carrying a purse would make that ten times worse. :lol:
My backpack that converts into a messenger bag is lovely. :wub:
Quote from: Malthus on March 09, 2010, 03:48:34 PM
When we are down to discussing the relative contents of pockets, I think it is fair to say the thread is done. :lol:
Discussing the contents of pockets is rather redolent of Tolkien though.
This isn't grumblers day :lol:
Still, when you build your house of glass and chuck stones from the balcony you have to expect a few back sometime.
I live in a house made of ass. :cool:
Ass and you shall receive.
I put the ass in massa.
Quote from: Jaron on March 09, 2010, 05:27:37 PM
This isn't grumblers day :lol:
Actually, I think I am doing well (Jake and I are just good-naturedly busting each others chops, I will confess - he couldn't troll if he tried). Malthus is just being contrary. He will investigate and discover that Tolkien was not using "English" as a substitute for "British."
Tolkien's English nationalism and rejection of "Britishism" (to coin a word) is a matter of historical fact, as anyone examining the case could see, so it doesn't bother me that people line up to say it ain't so.
QuoteStill, when you build your house of glass and chuck stones from the balcony you have to expect a few back sometime.
Haven't seen any come back, other than "I don't care about what Tolkien was like as a man," and that response doesn't bother me either. People
do care, they just won't admit it in the heat of a debate.
Heat? :tinfoil:
Tolkien was kind of racist.
All the non-whites in Middle Earth worked for Mordor.
Quote from: Siege on March 11, 2010, 03:44:03 PM
Tolkien was kind of racist.
All the non-whites in Middle Earth worked for Mordor.
I don't think so. IIRC Frodo and Sam actually chat about the legendary men of black skin that live far in the South, where Sauron's power hasn't reached. Dwarfs are Semites, which would make them the racial equivalent of Middle Easterners, Arabs, Phoenicians or Jews, Woses aren't white either... on the other hand many white peoples served Morgoth and Sauron, starting with the Numenoreans themselves.
In fact the "good" Men of Rohan, blond, fair skinned, are depicted on occasions as quite a bit barbarian. They, for example, hunted Woses for sport... Rohirrim are depicted in more than one way as the equivalent of the Goths, half civilized Nomads accepted into their lands by the dark haired 'Romans' of Gondor in exchange for military assistance.
Regarding that Rome-Gondor equivalence, sometimes I have thought that, if Tolkien had a main historical reference for his work (which is unlikely, but whatever) it has to be Attila's Empire, his invasion of Europe and the battle of Châlons.
Tolkien was as racist as only a South African can be.