Mormons and Science Fiction

[CountDeMoney]

Isn't it obvious that group sex should be provided by the state?  I think you'll agree.

No, it should be dictated by free market forces.

It already is, in a way.  By the guy the brings the most coke to the party.

[Josquius]

It used to be the Jews, but multiple wives allowed the LDSers to out breed them.

Isaac Asimov, Robert Silverberg, and Judith Merrill are spinning in their graves.  Harlan Ellison promises that publication of The Last Dangerous Visions will restore the Jews to the top.  David Brin doesn't care about it, and Harry Turtledove doesn't know about it.

Harry Turtledove doesn't know a lot of things.

[Faeelin]

I'm trying to figure out if I became aware Card was a crazy Mormon before I realized his more recent writing was shit.

His first Ender book came with a foreword saying he wrote it in the seminar or doing missionary stuff somewhere, so I was sort of prepared.

One of my favourite books still.

Eh. You can be a Mormon and not believe that Obama is launching a bid to turn America into a one party state using youth corps and the 2010 census as Card does.

[Malthus]

Dear Sirs,

Thankyou for your letter..... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J.R.R. Tolkien

Tolkien is the man. That was a righteous smackdown. 

It must have pissed him off no end that the Nazis tainted the field of Germanic mythology worse than a whole legion of Timmays high on a mixture of anime schoolgirls, Turtledove, and cocaine. 

[grumbler]

Dear Sirs,

Thankyou for your letter..... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J.R.R. Tolkien

Tolkien is the man. That was a righteous smackdown. 

It must have pissed him off no end that the Nazis tainted the field of Germanic mythology worse than a whole legion of Timmays high on a mixture of anime schoolgirls, Turtledove, and cocaine. 

Interesting as well that he notes that he is an "English subject" and served in an "English Army."

The hundreds of thousands of non-English who served in that army would probably not be pleased to discover that they didn't count.

[Malthus]

Interesting as well that he notes that he is an "English subject" and served in an "English Army."

The hundreds of thousands of non-English who served in that army would probably not be pleased to discover that they didn't count.

Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? 

[grumbler]

Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? 

Huh?  There hasn't been an English Army since 1707!  The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.

If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).

[Malthus]

Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? 

Huh?  There hasn't been an English Army since 1707!  The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.

If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).

Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict. 

[Berkut]

Huh? How is him pointing out the fact that he's English a slight against anyone else? 

Huh?  There hasn't been an English Army since 1707!  The fact that Tolkien could neglect this fact (and imply that the British Army was, in fact, an English one) kinda implies that the non-English portions don't count.

If you wrote something referring to Canada and saying that you were proud that it "stood up to Hitler alongside the other Protestant nations," you would probably get some backlash from the Catholics (though probably not the Jews).

Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict. 

Oh, that would most certainly be a slight - and a well deserved one at that.

Fucking rebels. They were always worthless soldiers.

[garbon]

I see a stick in the mud.

[grumbler]

Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.

I think you completely miss the point.  Tolkien is obviously using "English" where a more considered man would have used "British."  For a man of his times and prejudices, this is entirely understandable: he probably does think British and English are the same thing, and that there is an English Army which has some odds and sods from Ireland, Scotland, Nepal, and the other fringes of the empire.

While it is perfectly natural to idolize Tolkien as a paragon for our times, it is probably better to recognize that he was a creature of his time, not ours.  And in his time, English meant just that, to an Englishman.

[grumbler]

BTW, has anyone ever heard anyone refer to themselves, unselfconsciously, as a "Yank?"  I never have.  I am still waiting for my first German who unselfconsciously refers to himself or herself as a "Kraut."

[Malthus]

Seems you are sorta neglecting the context. This was a letter to some German publisher dude. He's obviously using "English" colloquially, in contrast to "German", as in "we yanks whipped your ass in WW2" which isn't really a slight on the contributions of the brave men of the southern states who also fought in that conflict.

I think you completely miss the point.  Tolkien is obviously using "English" where a more considered man would have used "British."  For a man of his times and prejudices, this is entirely understandable: he probably does think British and English are the same thing, and that there is an English Army which has some odds and sods from Ireland, Scotland, Nepal, and the other fringes of the empire.

While it is perfectly natural to idolize Tolkien as a paragon for our times, it is probably better to recognize that he was a creature of his time, not ours.  And in his time, English meant just that, to an Englishman.

To my mind, that letter was a righteous smackdown, and quibbling about his use of "English" is missing the point about as far as it can be missed.

[grumbler]

To my mind, that letter was a righteous smackdown, and quibbling about his use of "English" is missing the point about as far as it can be missed.

To my mind, the letter was a righteous smackdown, and remains so even when you note that the man was not without his own faults.  One can hold a different opinion than you and still not be "missing the point about as far as it can be missed" (especially since the point is about racism and closed-mindedness).

Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be good.  In fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.

[garbon]

In fact, he is a deeper and more interesting author and historical character when one knows about his flaws.

In your opinion.