From ABCNews.com: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1
Quote
U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References
By JOSEPH RHEE, TAHMAN BRADLEY and BRIAN ROSS
Jan. 18, 2010
Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.
The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.
U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.
'It violates the Constitution'
The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."
"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."
Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military.
The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.
A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights.
"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
'Firearms of Jesus Christ'
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.
Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearms of Jesus Christ."
He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."
According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.
"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."
Siege, do you have one of these on your sights?
Americans. :lol: :tinfoil:
Why does there have to be a storm every time those fuckers find a glass of water? :rolleyes:
+5 weapons against heathens.
Heh, it's not surprising that no-one at the company has reflected on the incongruity of NT messages on military sniper rifle sights.
"Turn the other cheek or die" :D
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
Heh, it's not surprising that no-one at the company has reflected on the incongruity of NT messages on military sniper rifle sights.
"Turn the other cheek or die" :D
Why is it not surprising? Do you know something about this company that the rest of us don't? :huh:
On the contrary, I find it both curious
and surprising in this day and age.
Imbuing weapons with holy symbolism doesn't strike me as very modern outside, I suppose, the Israeli/jewish mindset. :P
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 03:28:07 PM
Why is it not surprising? Do you know something about this company that the rest of us don't? :huh:
That fundies are stupid? That is no surprise, at least not to me. :P
QuoteOn the contrary, I find it both curious and surprising in this day and age.
US style fundies are in short supply in Sweden ...
QuoteImbuing weapons with holy symbolism doesn't strike me as very modern outside, I suppose, the Israeli/jewish mindset. :P
My +1 Axe of Yahweh doesn't count. ;)
I like how the Pentagon thought it was a great idea to have the inscriptions.
Though since POTUS said it was a crusade I guess they thought what the hell.
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
Heh, it's not surprising that no-one at the company has reflected on the incongruity of NT messages on military sniper rifle sights.
Really they ought to be using OT citations.
smiting amelekites and the like.
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
That fundies are stupid? That is no surprise, at least not to me. :P
What indication, other than this article, do you have that says this company is run by fundies?
If you have some prior knowledge of their conduct, I can accept that this should come as no surprise to you, but otherwise you're just grand standing.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 18, 2010, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
Heh, it's not surprising that no-one at the company has reflected on the incongruity of NT messages on military sniper rifle sights.
Really they ought to be using OT citations.
smiting amelekites and the like.
But you, Hashem, are a kevlar vest for me. You bestow high powered sniper rifles and blow off my enemies heads.
So, Jebus inscriptions aside, how good are the actual sights?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 18, 2010, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
Heh, it's not surprising that no-one at the company has reflected on the incongruity of NT messages on military sniper rifle sights.
Really they ought to be using OT citations.
smiting amelekites and the like.
This would be a great inscription for a nuke:
QuoteThou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;
And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider;
With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;
I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers.
And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.
Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 51 (King James Version)
Muslims have gone in to battle quotations from the Koran and Sunnah since Mecca.
MR. PRESIDENT, WE MUST NOT ALLOW A HOLY QUOTATION GAP!
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
That fundies are stupid? That is no surprise, at least not to me. :P
What indication, other than this article, do you have that says this company is run by fundies?
If you have some prior knowledge of their conduct, I can accept that this should come as no surprise to you, but otherwise you're just grand standing.
Res ipsa loquitur. :P
The US Army should put "God with us" on its belt buckles.
It seems rather tasteless giving them to Afghan allies. Like giving them bullets coated in pi.....
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
Res ipsa loquitur. :P
None of your Hebrew magical spells around here, buster!
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
That fundies are stupid? That is no surprise, at least not to me. :P
What indication, other than this article, do you have that says this company is run by fundies?
If you have some prior knowledge of their conduct, I can accept that this should come as no surprise to you, but otherwise you're just grand standing.
Res ipsa loquitur. :P
Yes, does circle argumentation ever work for you? :huh:
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 18, 2010, 04:33:08 PM
It seems rather tasteless giving them to Afghan allies. Like giving them bullets coated in pi.....
maybe muslims or whatever need to be less stuck up.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 04:45:34 PM
Yes, does circle argumentation ever work for you? :huh:
It isn't circular. We have a data point - a company whose founder thinks it a good idea to put NT quotes on their products.
Any betting people wish to bet on what chance the company
wasn't founded by a fundy?
I'm having trouble giving any sort of shits about this. :(
Edit: I'm trying to find it in this picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/US_Marine_M16A4_Rifle_ACOG.jpg
but can't be sure where it is.
According to the photo in the ABC article, it seems like it should be in that little stamped stuff there kinda on the bottom, but even at that size, I can't read it to be sure. If it is there, is it that whole thing, or is there a jumble of numbers/letters right next to it (like a serial number or model number or something)?
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 04:45:34 PM
Yes, does circle argumentation ever work for you? :huh:
It isn't circular. We have a data point - a company whose founder thinks it a good idea to put NT quotes on their products.
Any betting people wish to bet on what chance the company wasn't founded by a fundy?
We have a, ie ONE data point. For you to be unsurprised, we require at the very least two.
Unless of course you do not need a data point specifically for this company, but rather rely on generalization and prejudice to supply
posteriori data. Of course, I know that you are a glowing ball of jewish light, and would never stoop to letting your prejudice guide you, and thus we are back to square one, with my suggestion that you, in fact, simply misspelled several words of the original sentence.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:02:33 PM
We have a, ie ONE data point. For you to be unsurprised, we require at the very least two.
Um, why?
QuoteUnless of course you do not need a data point specifically for this company, but rather rely on generalization and prejudice to supply posteriori data. Of course, I know that you are a glowing ball of jewish light, and would never stoop to letting your prejudice guide you, and thus we are back to square one, with my suggestion that you, in fact, simply misspelled several words of the original sentence.
Heh, I'm not prejudiced against people putting Jesus quotes on military hardware; I just think they are stupid if they aren't doing it ironically. :D
Edit: from the article:
QuoteThe company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."
"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."
Are you claiming these aren't clearly fundies? Get real! :lmfao:
Oh nevermind...there are more pictures on the ABC site:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FInternational%2Fht_scopes_slide2_ssh.jpg&hash=3c9ca685d19f128ef01d18ab25014ba3a1390f53)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FInternational%2Fht_scopes_slide7_ssh.jpg&hash=ed094c4c0e8e2b9f6ea95d5bc754533ee1ae5335)
:rolleyes: Oh noes.
Edit: Heh. Interesting verses, considering what they're stamped on.
Quote from: 2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Quote from: John 8:12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Edit2: And why does the article call them secret Jesus codes?
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 05:09:12 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:02:33 PM
We have a, ie ONE data point. For you to be unsurprised, we require at the very least two.
Um, why?
QuoteUnless of course you do not need a data point specifically for this company, but rather rely on generalization and prejudice to supply posteriori data. Of course, I know that you are a glowing ball of jewish light, and would never stoop to letting your prejudice guide you, and thus we are back to square one, with my suggestion that you, in fact, simply misspelled several words of the original sentence.
Heh, I'm not prejudiced against people putting Jesus quotes on military hardware; I just think they are stupid if they aren't doing it ironically. :D
Edit: from the article:
QuoteThe company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."
"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."
Are you claiming these aren't clearly fundies? Get real! :lmfao:
I lack the endurance to explain my point more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to leave it.
This is the second time today, though, that a poster I generally perceive as relatively intelligent just doesn't seem to have their brain set to "think". Makes me wonder. :huh:
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
I lack the endurance to explain my point more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to leave it.
This is the second time today, though, that a poster I generally perceive as relatively intelligent just doesn't seem to have their brain set to "think". Makes me wonder. :huh:
Maybe you're a poor judge of relative intelligence.
I named my rifle.
one is for fighting and one is for fun!
Quote from: Savonarola on January 18, 2010, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
I lack the endurance to explain my point more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to leave it.
This is the second time today, though, that a poster I generally perceive as relatively intelligent just doesn't seem to have their brain set to "think". Makes me wonder. :huh:
Maybe you're a poor judge of relative intelligence.
Not at all unlikely.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 18, 2010, 04:51:11 PM
maybe muslims or whatever need to be less stuck up.
I've definitely learned that the problem in this story is the Muslims. I should have known really.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
I lack the endurance to explain my point more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to leave it.
This is the second time today, though, that a poster I generally perceive as relatively intelligent just doesn't seem to have their brain set to "think". Makes me wonder. :huh:
Come come. A company website which claims that "We believe that America is great when its people are good," and "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history ..."?
Anyone wanna take bets they are
not fundies?
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 18, 2010, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 18, 2010, 04:51:11 PM
maybe muslims or whatever need to be less stuck up.
I've definitely learned that the problem in this story is the Muslims. I should have known really.
Correct. The dogfuckers should shut up and soldier.
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 05:39:36 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
I lack the endurance to explain my point more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to leave it.
This is the second time today, though, that a poster I generally perceive as relatively intelligent just doesn't seem to have their brain set to "think". Makes me wonder. :huh:
Come come. A company website which claims that "We believe that America is great when its people are good," and "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history ..."?
Anyone wanna take bets they are not fundies?
Sigh.
Completely not the point.
How can you be "unsurprised" that a company you've never heard about, delivers a product you've never used, imprinting it with a most unlikely combination of characters?
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 18, 2010, 05:27:04 PM
one is for fighting and one is for fun!
Don't mix them up.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:47:21 PM
Sigh.
Completely not the point.
I thought that was the point. were you not castigating me for jumping to conclusions that these guys were fundies?
QuoteHow can you be "unsurprised" that a company you've never heard about, delivers a product you've never used, imprinting it with a most unlikely combination of characters?
Because that's the sort of thing fundies
do. They have, apparently, little sense of irony.
I mean, after the "anti-evolution theme park", what can possibly be a big surprise about this?
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
My +1 Axe of Yahweh doesn't count. ;)
Because you can axe Yahweh but he won't ansur?
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 05:56:09 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 05:47:21 PM
Sigh.
Completely not the point.
I thought that was the point. were you not castigating me for jumping to conclusions that these guys were fundies?
QuoteHow can you be "unsurprised" that a company you've never heard about, delivers a product you've never used, imprinting it with a most unlikely combination of characters?
Because that's the sort of thing fundies do. They have, apparently, little sense of irony.
I mean, after the "anti-evolution theme park", what can possibly be a big surprise about this?
:frusty:
Answer me this: Do you presuppose that all/many arms manufacturers in the US are fundies?
Quote from: grumbler on January 18, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
My +1 Axe of Yahweh doesn't count. ;)
Because you can axe Yahweh but he won't ansur?
That punning is against the Geneva Convention! :lol:
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 18, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
So, Jebus inscriptions aside, how good are the actual sights?
There is one with a specially cushioned rubber gasket that fits against the eye socket.
It was a sight for sore eyes.
The others I know nothing about.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
:frusty:
Answer me this: Do you presuppose that all/many arms manufacturers in the US are fundies?
No - why should I? :huh:
I only think that those who put semi-secret Biblical quotes on their products, and claim in their websites that the US was founded on Biblical precepts, most likely are.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
Answer me this: Do you presuppose that all/many arms manufacturers in the US are fundies?
I think he presupposes that ones that put Biblical quotations on their guns are. Seems fair to me.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 18, 2010, 05:52:03 PM
Quote from: Octavian on January 18, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 18, 2010, 05:27:04 PM
one is for fighting and one is for fun!
Don't mix them up.
:P
It's especially important that you don't mix them up since you clearly don't shoot blanks :)
The whole blanks issue is probably why Siege shouldn't mix them up either while deployed
And I'm out of here. Good night!
Since when has that style of notation been secret? :huh:
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
:frusty:
Answer me this: Do you presuppose that all/many arms manufacturers in the US are fundies?
No - why should I? :huh:
I only think that those who put semi-secret Biblical quotes on their products, and claim in their websites that the US was founded on Biblical precepts, most likely are.
Then how can you be unsurprised that this company which you've had no prior chance to form an opinion of, does a thing like this?
Are you just being obtuse in order to mess with me?
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 18, 2010, 06:05:25 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
Answer me this: Do you presuppose that all/many arms manufacturers in the US are fundies?
I think he presupposes that ones that put Biblical quotations on their guns are. Seems fair to me.
I give up.
The circle is too round.
:frusty:
Pretty unprofessional.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 18, 2010, 06:06:40 PM
Since when has that style of notation been secret? :huh:
I think it's a matter of location and context.
Not knowing any better, I'd certainly have assumed those numbers were a parts identifier or something of the sort.
Quote from: Tyr on January 18, 2010, 06:12:39 PM
Pretty unprofessional.
Actually, they look like they were professionally done, quite neat.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:10:21 PM
Then how can you be unsurprised that this company which you've had no prior chance to form an opinion of, does a thing like this?
Are you just being obtuse in order to mess with me?
Honestly, I have no idea what's got your panties in a twist over this.
Sure, what they did was amusing in its lack of self-awareness (I mean, NT quotes on military hardware?), but as I've said, lack of self-awareness isn't all that surprising on the part of fundies. It is more or less their calling-card.
If a QB playing college football can get away with plastering this sort of thing across the bottom of his eyes so that the tv cameras have to pick up the reference, I am not really sure what the big deal is here. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2010, 06:23:29 PM
If a QB playing college football can get away with plastering this sort of thing across the bottom of his eyes so that the tv cameras have to pick up the reference, I am not really sure what the big deal is here. :P
Tebow would freak Europeans out. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:10:21 PM
Then how can you be unsurprised that this company which you've had no prior chance to form an opinion of, does a thing like this?
Are you just being obtuse in order to mess with me?
Honestly, I have no idea what's got your panties in a twist over this.
Sure, what they did was amusing in its lack of self-awareness (I mean, NT quotes on military hardware?), but as I've said, lack of self-awareness isn't all that surprising on the part of fundies. It is more or less their calling-card.
Nevermind.
I'm going to attempt to forget this thread ever happened. :bleeding:
"I'm completely unsurprised that car that just passed was blue."
"Why would you be unsurprised about that?"
"Well, because it was blue, obviously. You saw it, didn't you? It was clearly blue. I was not surprised."
Quote from: PDH on January 18, 2010, 06:21:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 18, 2010, 06:12:39 PM
Pretty unprofessional.
Actually, they look like they were professionally done, quite neat.
The very idea of it I mean, not the way it was implimented.
It doesn't help make the sights better and they're being made for the army so it would seem to be logical to make them professional and clean.
Anyway, isn't this pretty blasphemous? I mean, a properly blessed gun should include a verse from the Liturgy of the Omnissiah.
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:31:46 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:10:21 PM
Then how can you be unsurprised that this company which you've had no prior chance to form an opinion of, does a thing like this?
Are you just being obtuse in order to mess with me?
Honestly, I have no idea what's got your panties in a twist over this.
Sure, what they did was amusing in its lack of self-awareness (I mean, NT quotes on military hardware?), but as I've said, lack of self-awareness isn't all that surprising on the part of fundies. It is more or less their calling-card.
Nevermind.
I'm going to attempt to forget this thread ever happened. :bleeding:
"I'm completely unsurprised that car that just passed was blue."
"Why would you be unsurprised about that?"
"Well, because it was blue, obviously. You saw it, didn't you? It was clearly blue. I was not surprised."
Uhm, Jews are tribal. They are into this kind of shit. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Slargos on January 18, 2010, 06:31:46 PM
Nevermind.
I'm going to attempt to forget this thread ever happened. :bleeding:
"I'm completely unsurprised that car that just passed was blue."
"Why would you be unsurprised about that?"
"Well, because it was blue, obviously. You saw it, didn't you? It was clearly blue. I was not surprised."
What I failed to find surprising was the fact that the sort of person who would put NT quotes on military hardware would not reflect on the irony of doing this.
In short, it was a rhetorical device to highlight the fact that they did not so reflect, and should have.
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2010, 06:37:50 PM
Uhm, Jews are tribal. They are into this kind of shit. :rolleyes:
Huh? :huh:
Quote from: Tyr on January 18, 2010, 06:34:35 PM
The very idea of it I mean, not the way it was implimented.
It doesn't help make the sights better and they're being made for the army so it would seem to be logical to make them professional and clean.
Anyone can buy one of these. The government has just decided these are also what they'll use and ordered a whole shitload of them to put them on the rifles they issue.
Edit: Here, enjoy: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp;jsessionid=TTHBKOHNF4PMDLAQBBICCNNMCAEFCIWE?id=0044064712653a&type=product&cmCat=froogle&cm_ven=data_feed&cm_cat=froogle&cm_pla=1710401&cm_ite=0044064712653a&_requestid=122221
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 18, 2010, 06:25:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2010, 06:23:29 PM
If a QB playing college football can get away with plastering this sort of thing across the bottom of his eyes so that the tv cameras have to pick up the reference, I am not really sure what the big deal is here. :P
Tebow would freak Europeans out. ;)
I'm shocked that none of those asshole militant atheist groups like ACLU went after Florida over him.
Quote from: Queequeg on January 18, 2010, 04:08:33 PM
Muslims have gone in to battle quotations from the Koran and Sunnah since Mecca.
MR. PRESIDENT, WE MUST NOT ALLOW A HOLY QUOTATION GAP!
:D
Well, I'm glad they're Bible/Christian codes, and not Wickan, Druid or some other obscure coding. ;)
If Jesus is good enough to be on my dashboard, he is good enough to be on my optical range-finding device to kill heathens.
Quote from: KRonn on January 18, 2010, 08:25:14 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 18, 2010, 04:08:33 PM
Muslims have gone in to battle quotations from the Koran and Sunnah since Mecca.
MR. PRESIDENT, WE MUST NOT ALLOW A HOLY QUOTATION GAP!
:D
Well, I'm glad they're Bible/Christian codes, and not Wickan, Druid or some other obscure coding. ;)
Good point.
I found secret jesus codes on my shirt tags!
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 18, 2010, 05:32:07 PM
I've definitely learned that the problem in this story is the Muslims. I should have known really.
True. After all it is pretty easy to be tolerant of other religions even when they are crammed in your face. I do it everyday. :)
Quote from: Neil on January 18, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
I'm shocked that none of those asshole militant atheist groups like ACLU went after Florida over him.
Cause the ACLU is not an atheist organization.
Tebow is just exercising his constitutionally protected rights, which is what the ACLU is there to defend.
I'm a bit baffled how any american could possibly not see that this would look really really really bad if it came out?
I know I am supposed to be outraged by this, but for some reason I am feeling a whole lot of "Who fucking cares?"
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:09:31 AM
I'm a bit baffled how any american could possibly not see that this would look really really really bad if it came out?
I have you in my Jesus Coded sniper scope foreigner!
Quote from: Valmy on January 19, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:09:31 AM
I'm a bit baffled how any american could possibly not see that this would look really really really bad if it came out?
I have you in my Jesus Coded sniper scope foreigner!
Then I have you checkmated... I live in the country where the head of state is the head of the church as well :contract:
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:09:31 AM
I'm a bit baffled how any american could possibly not see that this would look really really really bad if it came out?
I am baffled why anyone could think it was anything more than More Fundy Stupid Shit that really doesn't mean much of anything one way or another.
Do you think there is going to be some kind of international incident over this?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 18, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
I'm shocked that none of those asshole militant atheist groups like ACLU went after Florida over him.
Cause the ACLU is not an atheist organization.
Tebow is just exercising his constitutionally protected rights, which is what the ACLU is there to defend.
It is funny how often people get the position of the ACLU almost perfectly wrong.
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:24:52 AM
Then I have you checkmated... I live in the country where the head of state is the head of the church as well :contract:
Does your king have Jesus Codes on his crown?
The sights give 5% crit chance against darkspawn/heathens.
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:09:31 AM
I'm a bit baffled how any american could possibly not see that this would look really really really bad if it came out?
I am baffled why anyone could think it was anything more than More Fundy Stupid Shit that really doesn't mean much of anything one way or another.
Do you think there is going to be some kind of international incident over this?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fflapsblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FMohammed-Cartoon-Bomb.jpg&hash=f2e32c564c00b542049d7d210b21aa948bab78ea)
:contract:
Quote from: Legbiter on January 19, 2010, 10:28:24 AM
The sights give 5% crit chance against darkspawn/heathens.
Sniper Rifles exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against Americans.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
I am baffled why anyone could think it was anything more than More Fundy Stupid Shit that really doesn't mean much of anything one way or another.
Heh, careful - Slargos will take offence! :D
QuoteDo you think there is going to be some kind of international incident over this?
Probably. A really silly one, in my opinion.
In any event, I thought my quote from Jeremiah would be super appropriate for a nuke component. Fear the wrath!
Quote from: Valmy on January 19, 2010, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:24:52 AM
Then I have you checkmated... I live in the country where the head of state is the head of the church as well :contract:
Does your king have Jesus Codes on his crown?
On the Crown, Sceptre and Staff, yes, the sword is Napoleon's.
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2010, 10:26:25 AM
It is funny how often people get the position of the ACLU almost perfectly wrong.
Neil, as he himself will tell you, is "perfect." Therefor, when he is wrong (and it is often), it is natural that he should be perfectly wrong.
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:28:52 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fflapsblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FMohammed-Cartoon-Bomb.jpg&hash=f2e32c564c00b542049d7d210b21aa948bab78ea)
:contract:
Where is the secret jesus code there? :contract:
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 10:45:34 AM
Where is the secret jesus code there? :contract:
No jesus code, but a real diplomatic incident with dead people and an attempted assassination two weeks ago.
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 10:45:34 AM
Where is the secret jesus code there? :contract:
No jesus code, but a real diplomatic incident with dead people and an attempted assassination two weeks ago.
So?
You think the fact that some US company that makes scopes put bible references on them is going to result in that kind of uproar? I rather doubt it. I suspect nobody really cares, in fact.
To the extent that crazy fundy Muslims might be mad at the crazy fundy Christians...again, who cares? And why *should* we care, even if they do get all bent out of shape?
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2010, 10:53:31 AM
So?
You think the fact that some US company that makes scopes put bible references on them is going to result in that kind of uproar? I rather doubt it. I suspect nobody really cares, in fact.
To the extent that crazy fundy Muslims might be mad at the crazy fundy Christians...again, who cares? And why *should* we care, even if they do get all bent out of shape?
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
I'm thinking the types who are going to go around killing people are going to go around killing people regardless of whether or not some company in Michigan puts "secret jesus codes" on some sights.
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
It's what they do man. They (and by they I mean people who kill people over cartoons) are angry at something...they cannot really identify...so they just lash out at whatever they can find to be pissed about. Trying not to piss them off is pointless. A few Westerners out there will always do something intentionally or unintentionally to piss them off. Why expend the energy on what is, essentially, their own problem-the fact they get pissed off at insignificant things all the time? Our job is to prevent them from killing people not keep them from being angry which we cannot control. How other people choose to feel is not my business.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on January 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
I'm thinking the types who are going to go around killing people are going to go around killing people regardless of whether or not some company in Michigan puts "secret jesus codes" on some sights.
Perhaps, but our efforts in places like Afganistan where we have to rely in part on Muslims (who may be only slighly less religious that the ones fighting us and so may be offended by this sort of thing) are not made easier by such stuff. I admit that to my mind this is a nothing-of-a-nothing, just typical fundie foolishness - but our enemies are likely to use it as propaganda against us with our "friends".
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
Also would they really be offended by us blaspheming our own scriptures? If we were putting Islamic stuff on the guns I can see that but since when do Muslims get offended by Christian stuff?
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on January 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
I'm thinking the types who are going to go around killing people are going to go around killing people regardless of whether or not some company in Michigan puts "secret jesus codes" on some sights.
Perhaps, but our efforts in places like Afganistan where we have to rely in part on Muslims (who may be only slighly less religious that the ones fighting us and so may be offended by this sort of thing) are not made easier by such stuff. I admit that to my mind this is a nothing-of-a-nothing, just typical fundie foolishness - but our enemies are likely to use it as propaganda against us with our "friends".
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
I guess - but then, I suspect that there will always be something, and if there isn't, they will just make something up anyway.
If not this, then it is bibles being flushed down toilets, or the rampant torture going on at gitmo, or muhammed cartoons, or...whatever.
Hell, this is a perfect example of how there will be *something* made over nothing. Might as well stay home because someone is going to scream murder if you step on a bug. There are so many bugs, one will always get stepped on, so there will always be a "justification" for whatever stupidity some radical wants to justify.
So why worry about it?
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Perhaps, but our efforts in places like Afganistan where we have to rely in part on Muslims (who may be only slighly less religious that the ones fighting us and so may be offended by this sort of thing) are not made easier by such stuff. I admit that to my mind this is a nothing-of-a-nothing, just typical fundie foolishness - but our enemies are likely to use it as propaganda against us with our "friends".
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
It's just an excuse, and they've never had any shortages of those. If it's not the letters and numbers after the serial number on a sight, it'll be some other silly bullshit thing.
Edit: What Berkut said.
Quote from: Neil on January 18, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 18, 2010, 06:25:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2010, 06:23:29 PM
If a QB playing college football can get away with plastering this sort of thing across the bottom of his eyes so that the tv cameras have to pick up the reference, I am not really sure what the big deal is here. :P
Tebow would freak Europeans out. ;)
I'm shocked that none of those asshole militant atheist groups like ACLU went after Florida over him.
God showing disfavour by making him lose was enough.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: Neil on January 18, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
I'm shocked that none of those asshole militant atheist groups like ACLU went after Florida over him.
Cause the ACLU is not an atheist organization.
Tebow is just exercising his constitutionally protected rights, which is what the ACLU is there to defend.
Of course it is. Berkut defends the ACLU, therefore it is atheist.
LOL Slargos I feel your pain. The Malthus wall of non-understanding was pretty amusing to watch.
Quote from: Valmy on January 19, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
Also would they really be offended by us blaspheming our own scriptures? If we were putting Islamic stuff on the guns I can see that but since when do Muslims get offended by Christian stuff?
I doubt they would be offended by the
blasphemy of it all. More likely they would point to it as "proof" that our armies are really there as Christian "Crusaders".
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on January 19, 2010, 11:55:34 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Perhaps, but our efforts in places like Afganistan where we have to rely in part on Muslims (who may be only slighly less religious that the ones fighting us and so may be offended by this sort of thing) are not made easier by such stuff. I admit that to my mind this is a nothing-of-a-nothing, just typical fundie foolishness - but our enemies are likely to use it as propaganda against us with our "friends".
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
It's just an excuse, and they've never had any shortages of those. If it's not the letters and numbers after the serial number on a sight, it'll be some other silly bullshit thing.
Edit: What Berkut said.
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
Quote from: The Brain on January 19, 2010, 12:30:42 PM
LOL Slargos I feel your pain. The Malthus wall of non-understanding was pretty amusing to watch.
It's easy to amuse a Swede. Just leave him alone with an immigrant ... or some livestock.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:08:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 19, 2010, 12:30:42 PM
LOL Slargos I feel your pain. The Malthus wall of non-understanding was pretty amusing to watch.
It's easy to amuse a Swede. Just leave him alone with an immigrant ... or some livestock.
But please dont leave them along with both.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2010, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:08:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 19, 2010, 12:30:42 PM
LOL Slargos I feel your pain. The Malthus wall of non-understanding was pretty amusing to watch.
It's easy to amuse a Swede. Just leave him alone with an immigrant ... or some livestock.
But please dont leave them along with both.
With a tent and some tickets, they could have a show running in no time!
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
On the contrary, to the extent that these scopes are being purchased as part of federal procurement program, it is inconsistent with American values.
Although really the people who should be most offended by this are serious, practicing Christians. One does not need to be a very sophisticated reader of the NT to grasp that Jesus might not be thrilled with the idea of his message being used as a good luck charm on a sniper scope. Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
On the contrary, to the extent that these scopes are being purchased as part of federal procurement program, it is inconsistent with American values.
Although really the people who should be most offended by this are serious, practicing Christians. One does not need to be a very sophisticated reader of the NT to grasp that Jesus might not be thrilled with the idea of his message being used as a good luck charm on a sniper scope. Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.
Would it be excessively snarky of me to note that something like 90% of so-called "Christians" throughout history fall into that category? :D
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
Would it be excessively snarky of me to note that something like 90% of so-called "Christians" throughout history fall into that category? :D
90% might even be a little low.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
On the contrary, to the extent that these scopes are being purchased as part of federal procurement program, it is inconsistent with American values.
Although really the people who should be most offended by this are serious, practicing Christians. One does not need to be a very sophisticated reader of the NT to grasp that Jesus might not be thrilled with the idea of his message being used as a good luck charm on a sniper scope. Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.
WWJD: .30-06
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
Would it be excessively snarky of me to note that something like 90% of so-called "Christians" throughout history fall into that category? :D
I was about to post the same thing but deleted the text before posting because I realized I would have been excessively snarky.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2010, 03:01:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
Would it be excessively snarky of me to note that something like 90% of so-called "Christians" throughout history fall into that category? :D
I was about to post the same thing but deleted the text before posting because I realized I would have been excessively snarky.
That is kind of snarky.
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2010, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2010, 03:01:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
Would it be excessively snarky of me to note that something like 90% of so-called "Christians" throughout history fall into that category? :D
I was about to post the same thing but deleted the text before posting because I realized I would have been excessively snarky.
That is kind of snarky.
But not excessively so.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 10:45:34 AM
Where is the secret jesus code there? :contract:
No jesus code, but a real diplomatic incident with dead people and an attempted assassination two weeks ago.
What does that have to do with "Fundy Stupid Shit" in the post you were quoting and thus responding to?
There will be several real real diplomatic incidents with dead people and several attempted assassinations in the next few months, no matter what happens.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
Exactly. That allegation was made up. It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.
Agreed. It is the American Christians that have those weird dietary superstitions and taboos that possess some patina of religious "contracts" or something, right? I keep getting all those crude superstitions and genital mutilations mixed up between the different crackpot groups.
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.
Agreed. It is the American Christians that have those weird dietary superstitions and taboos that possess some patina of religious "contracts" or something, right?
It is true that many American Christians abide by dietary restrictions and many if not all enter into and respect contracts. Neither of these things related to the problem I mentioned.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 04:39:03 PM
It is true that many American Christians abide by dietary restrictions and many if not all enter into and respect contracts. Neither of these things related to the problem I mentioned.
And I am agreeing with you. The return of Christianity to its pagan roots, with just the patina of Christian jargon, is distressing. There are already so many religions which are just a batch of crude superstitions and pagan rituals about not farming every nth year and unclean foods that another is absolutely unneeded. People who want that stuff should just convert (a little dick-snipping, if needed, shouldn't be too high a price to pay to become a "chosen one" or whatever floats their boat).
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on January 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?
I'm thinking the types who are going to go around killing people are going to go around killing people regardless of whether or not some company in Michigan puts "secret jesus codes" on some sights.
yes, but at the islamic fundie's morning meeting they will be discussing who to kill today... kill me plz isn't really the message you want them to get...
Daily Mail is reporting that British Troops in Afganistan will be being issued this equipment as well: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244440/U-S-military-weapons-dubbed-Jesus-guns-inscribed-secret-Bible-messages.html
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
Exactly. That allegation was made up. It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.
Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.
QuoteThe infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm
Indeed, the cartridge fiasco wasn't the sole cause of the problem. It fed into a genuine concern - that the Brits simply did not care about Indian religious sensibilities (as evidenced by allowing and even encouraging missionaries and evangelization).
It is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.
I disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a
good idea?
Quote from: alfred russel on January 19, 2010, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?
I hope the effect is not to create more folks requiring feeding ammunition at.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 09:36:03 PM
Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.
QuoteThe infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm
Books on the topic, like Kaye (p. 381) and Hibbert (p.53) point out that no pig fat was ever used, and little beef fat (and even that intended only for British units) as sheep's fat was cheaper than either. Further, they point out that the regiments where the revolt began had not received any kind of Enfield ammuniition with any greasing at all. The troops had oiled the cartridges themselves, and then complained that the papers was made with pig and cow fat 9which was, of course, not only untrue but impossible).
As a side note, the Enfield was replacing the older two-groove rifles just in the rifle companies. It had not yet begun to be distributed to the center companies of the native regiments, who retined their smoothbores.
QuoteIt is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.
I love it when your opinions become "most certainly... the case"! :lol: I don not think the rebellion could have been avoided by 1857, when the rifle issue erupted. By that time, the sepoys were too convinced that the British meant to "Christianize" India, and i am not sure they were wrong.
So I guess what i am saying is that it is my opinion that what you consider "most certainly not the case" was, in fact, the case. Pretty much everything the British did to allay sepoy concerns was seen as dissembling but the sepoys, and once you reach that state further efforts are almost certainly fruitless, because they cannot be seen for what they are.
QuoteI disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a good idea?
I dunno to whom this is addressed. Whoever is arguing that the revolt was a good thing for the Brits probably has not done much reading about it.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 09:36:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 11:41:39 AM
Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.
Exactly. That allegation was made up. It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.
Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.
QuoteThe infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm
Indeed, the cartridge fiasco wasn't the sole cause of the problem. It fed into a genuine concern - that the Brits simply did not care about Indian religious sensibilities (as evidenced by allowing and even encouraging missionaries and evangelization).
It is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.
I disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a good idea?
Thing is, I don't think the British actually used this pig-cow fat. Muslims said it was pig fat and Hindus said it was cow fat. It seems unlikely that it would contain both.
Dammit Grumbler beat me to it.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 19, 2010, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?
I hope the effect is not to create more folks requiring feeding ammunition at.
If you in the business of selling scopes it may help you hit your quarterly numbers.
I remember, when they were changing our utility uniform, to include new no-polish suede boots, there was a big stink created when it was speculated those boots were to be made of pigskin.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2010, 02:06:51 PM
I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.
On the contrary, to the extent that these scopes are being purchased as part of federal procurement program, it is inconsistent with American values.
Bullshit. The government isn't buying the company's products to support the religious beliefs of the company's ownership.
As a Christian, yeah, I find this a bit problematic, to say the least, but I find the idea that allowing even this mere hint of religion into the public sphere is somehow in violation of the Constitution even more offensive.
QuoteI thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?
No, the point of the scopes is to aim the weapons better.
The point of magazines is to feed them ammunition.
Get it? Like the Danish magazine the Islamists got so up in arms (literally) over? Nyuck, nyuck.
Quote from: Tonitrus on January 19, 2010, 10:49:07 PM
I remember, when they were changing our utility uniform, to include new no-polish suede boots, there was a big stink created when it was speculated those boots were to be made of pigskin.
If we're going to let them into NATO, it doesn't seem fair to deny the Poles western footwear technology. I don't think they'd care what the boots are made of. BTW, the "p" in "Polish" should be capitalized, even when it follows a dash.
:)
Can't agree with JR here. I honestly don't see this as proselytizing anymore then a Jupiter missile is convert people to Roman paganism. One thing that should be recalled is that besides being a religious text the bible is also literature. I honestly wouldn't have cared if they wrote lines from Koran or Vedas on a gun. It would be better if the lines they chose were a bit snappier, but that's just me.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 20, 2010, 02:07:01 AM
Can't agree with JR here. I honestly don't see this as proselytizing anymore then a Jupiter missile is convert people to Roman paganism. One thing that should be recalled is that besides being a religious text the bible is also literature. I honestly wouldn't have cared if they wrote lines from Koran or Vedas on a gun. It would be better if the lines they chose were a bit snappier, but that's just me.
I am become Shiva, the destroyer of worlds. Sux to be nipponese.
Quote from: Viking on January 20, 2010, 04:52:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 20, 2010, 02:07:01 AM
Can't agree with JR here. I honestly don't see this as proselytizing anymore then a Jupiter missile is convert people to Roman paganism. One thing that should be recalled is that besides being a religious text the bible is also literature. I honestly wouldn't have cared if they wrote lines from Koran or Vedas on a gun. It would be better if the lines they chose were a bit snappier, but that's just me.
I am become Shiva, the destroyer of worlds. Sux to be nipponese.
Exactly.
Quote from: Viking on January 20, 2010, 04:52:45 AM
I am become Shiva, the destroyer of worlds. Sux to be nipponese.
I'm Kali. :hug:
Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2010, 10:25:55 PM
Thing is, I don't think the British actually used this pig-cow fat. Muslims said it was pig fat and Hindus said it was cow fat. It seems unlikely that it would contain both.
It was greased with "tallow", the actual origins of which the British could not care less about. Saying that it could not be made of both beef and pork fat is like saying that sausage can't be made of both tits and lips.
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2010, 04:39:03 PM
It is true that many American Christians abide by dietary restrictions and many if not all enter into and respect contracts. Neither of these things related to the problem I mentioned.
And I am agreeing with you. The return of Christianity to its pagan roots, with just the patina of Christian jargon, is distressing. There are already so many religions which are just a batch of crude superstitions and pagan rituals about not farming every nth year and unclean foods that another is absolutely unneeded.
Really, I am unaware of any such religions. Perhaps you can enumerate them?
Also I was not aware that the ancient practice about allowing farmland to go periodically fallow was a "pagan ritual". I thought it was just sensible agrarian practice. Perhaps you can enlighten.
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
Quote from: dps on January 20, 2010, 12:10:54 AM
Bullshit. The government isn't buying the company's products to support the religious beliefs of the company's ownership.
As a Christian, yeah, I find this a bit problematic, to say the least, but I find the idea that allowing even this mere hint of religion into the public sphere is somehow in violation of the Constitution even more offensive.
The government's subjective motive is irrelevant - unless the government is entirely unaware of what is going on. All that is relevant is the fact that the government is purchasing equipment that disseminates (and is designed by the manufacturer to disseminate) a religious message.
Is it the most serious First Amendment violation in American history? Far from it - but it is still a violation.
Quote from: grumbler on January 19, 2010, 10:22:50 PM
Books on the topic, like Kaye (p. 381) and Hibbert (p.53) point out that no pig fat was ever used, and little beef fat (and even that intended only for British units) as sheep's fat was cheaper than either.
That is not what I read. Way I heard it, the cartridges were greased with "tallow", which did not have any one definitive origin (as the Brits did not care what species of animal provided the fat). Pigs, sheep, cows - all were used to make "tallow".
Naturally, the Brits had no particular notion to "break caste". They were simply uncaring as to the nature of the fat they used. Neither do the Americans in this case have any notion to pose as "Crusaders".
QuoteFurther, they point out that the regiments where the revolt began had not received any kind of Enfield ammuniition with any greasing at all. The troops had oiled the cartridges themselves, and then complained that the papers was made with pig and cow fat 9which was, of course, not only untrue but impossible).
This was an option made available to some troops (but not others) once the protests started. It is irrelevant that the troops had not yet been issued the cartridges.
Quoteit when your opinions become "most certainly... the case"! :lol: I don not think the rebellion could have been avoided by 1857, when the rifle issue erupted. By that time, the sepoys were too convinced that the British meant to "Christianize" India, and i am not sure they were wrong.
This is typical ex-post thinking. Sure, by that moment in 1857, it may (or may not) have been the case that a widespread rebellion costing thousands of lives could not have been prevented.
The $64,000 question is - do you really think that we are, vis. the Muslim world, in the same position as the Brits in 1857? Are you of the opinion that a widespread war in which our various Muslim allies worldwide turn against us is now inevitable, such that no gestures we could make would make any difference?
I am not of that opinion. I say we are more like the Brits a decade or two
before the rebellion. There is still plenty we can do to strengthen our hand with the uncommitted (or to further piss them off).
Your position is the equivalent of saying that the Brits should not have cared about pig and cow tallow issued to Sepoys in 1847, or 1837, should have issued it to them anyway, because those damn sepoys just protest everything, so we have nothing to lose.
QuoteSo I guess what i am saying is that it is my opinion that what you consider "most certainly not the case" was, in fact, the case. Pretty much everything the British did to allay sepoy concerns was seen as dissembling but the sepoys, and once you reach that state further efforts are almost certainly fruitless, because they cannot be seen for what they are.
You are of the opinion we are in that state vis. the world's Muslims? I'm not.
QuoteI dunno to whom this is addressed. Whoever is arguing that the revolt was a good thing for the Brits probably has not done much reading about it.
That being the case it would seem to me a good idea to learn from history rather than repeating it.
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
Teh Jews are clever sorts of people - we expect folks that want to mock our faith to know enough about it to come up with much better examples than mandatory crop rotation. ;)
I am more concerned about grumbler missing the point. The point is not that many people calling themselves Christian are superstitutious as opposed to others who actually practice Christianity (and who may also be superstitious for different reasons). The point is the spectacle of people aggressively pushing "Christianity" and boasting of their "Christian" values when in fact they are promoting messages and values opposed to Christian doctrine.
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
We Jews have been mocked by the best, so we don't settle for cheap imitations. :D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 09:40:09 AM
Really, I am unaware of any such religions. Perhaps you can enumerate them?
Alas, I cannot. They are too many.
QuoteAlso I was not aware that the ancient practice about allowing farmland to go periodically fallow was a "pagan ritual". I thought it was just sensible agrarian practice. Perhaps you can enlighten.
Allowing some farmland to lie fallow in order to allow it to recover from the depletion of nutrients is a sensible modern agricultural practice. Allowing all of the land to lie fallow for, say, every seventh year because seven was a sacred number and one's religious taboos forbade farming in taboo years is not sensible.
But I suspect you knew this.
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
To point out that superstitions all look the same to someone not subject to them is not mocking, it is merely observing. I think Judaism is as sensible, and as senseless, as Mormonism or Tibetan Buddhism.
If Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry (though it is amusing to hear them talk about other people's beliefs as "superstitions").
To other sheep in the flock, each sheep probably does look distinctive. To me, they all look like sheep.
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:01:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
To point out that superstitions all look the same to someone not subject to them is not mocking, it is merely observing. I think Judaism is as sensible, and as senseless, as Mormonism or Tibetan Buddhism.
If Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry (though it is amusing to hear them talk about other people's beliefs as "superstitions").
To other sheep in the flock, each sheep probably does look distinctive. To me, they all look like sheep.
Baaahhhhh!
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 09:56:46 AM
Allowing some farmland to lie fallow in order to allow it to recover from the depletion of nutrients is a sensible modern agricultural practice. Allowing all of the land to lie fallow for, say, every seventh year because seven was a sacred number and one's religious taboos forbade farming in taboo years is not sensible.
Seems pretty sensible to me to back up the sensible agrarian practice with a religious injunction to help ensure compliance. After all, despite the jokes about your age, you weren't actually around in ancient Canaan to teach proper agricultural practices in the public school system.
Quotef Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry
berkut is jewish?! :ph34r: :berkut: :Joos
Quote from: Malthus on January 20, 2010, 09:51:53 AM
That is not what I read. Way I heard it, the cartridges were greased with "tallow", which did not have any one definitive origin (as the Brits did not care what species of animal provided the fat). Pigs, sheep, cows - all were used to make "tallow".
I am not sure what you have read, but as I pointed out, the British in India very much did care and were aware of the sources of the tallow. The myth that they didn't is one of the persistent ones about the revolt, and the reason it persists is because the sepoys falsely believed it to be true.
QuoteNaturally, the Brits had no particular notion to "break caste". They were simply uncaring as to the nature of the fat they used. Neither do the Americans in this case have any notion to pose as "Crusaders".
As I noted, a false analogy. Probably on both ends (because I am not sure anyone beyond a few fanatics really believes Americans are "Crusaders").
QuoteThis was an option made available to some troops (but not others) once the protests started. It is irrelevant that the troops had not yet been issued the cartridges.
This makes no sense. The Mutiny started over the rumor that the Indian troops had been issued cartridges whose
paper contained pig and cow fat (once the British announced that the greased cartridges would not be issued). Even when the British responded to the tallow issue, the sepoys simply believed something else, because they were convinced that an overall plan existed.
QuoteThis is typical ex-post thinking. Sure, by that moment in 1857, it may (or may not) have been the case that a widespread rebellion costing thousands of lives could not have been prevented.
This is typical goal-shifting. Turns out that your unsupported "it is certainly" is wrong, so now you are rewording things and calling my well-supported argument "typical ex-post thinking!" :lol:
No matter how you might want to mischaracterize it, my point stands. Are you going to continue to argue that "most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend" regardless of British actions on the "tallowed bullet" issue, given that the British never issued it, and went to lengths to assure the sepys that they would not be issued it?
QuoteThe $64,000 question is - do you really think that we are, vis. the Muslim world, in the same position as the Brits in 1857? Are you of the opinion that a widespread war in which our various Muslim allies worldwide turn against us is now inevitable, such that no gestures we could make would make any difference?
Why is that even an interesting question, let alone a $64,000 one? Do you believe this to be true? If so, can you provide any evidence for your belief?
QuoteI am not of that opinion. I say we are more like the Brits a decade or two before the rebellion. There is still plenty we can do to strengthen our hand with the uncommitted (or to further piss them off).
I don't think there are many parallels at all, and so don't ascribe to your analogy. If you actually want to make and describe this analogy, I might find it compelling. Just stating that you believe one exists isn't compelling at all (to me).
QuoteYour position is the equivalent of saying that the Brits should not have cared about pig and cow tallow issued to Sepoys in 1847, or 1837, should have issued it to them anyway, because those damn sepoys just protest everything, so we have nothing to lose.
Please don't tell me what my position is. I get that enough from the posters here whom I recognize don't understand intellectual dishonesty. If you cannot restrain yourself, just say so and we can end this conversation amicably. Homey just don't play that game.
QuoteYou are of the opinion we are in that state vis. the world's Muslims? I'm not.
Nope. I am describing history. You are attempting to make an analogy, not me.
QuoteThat being the case it would seem to me a good idea to learn from history rather than repeating it.
I don't think that those are the only choices.
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:01:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
To point out that superstitions all look the same to someone not subject to them is not mocking, it is merely observing . . . .To other sheep in the flock, each sheep probably does look distinctive. To me, they all look like sheep.
That seems to me a very narrow and crude view of a more complex phenomenon. Christianity as a religion includes many fantastic, supernatural and superstitious elements. It also incorporates powerful ethical ideas from ancient Greek and Near Eastern philosophy, ideas which have been refined and built upon by Christian thinkers and theologians over the centuries. To recognize no distinction between the Christianity which contains these ideas from the pseudo-Christianity that elides them is a basic error.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 10:11:39 AM
Seems pretty sensible to me to back up the sensible agrarian practice with a religious injunction to help ensure compliance.
Well, if you are one who believes that magic numbers create sensible practices, I suppose you would feel this way. To someone outside the flock, though, your magic numbers and all-or-nothing approach are not obviously sensible, whether backed up with appeal to superstitious dread or not.
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:21:57 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 10:11:39 AM
Seems pretty sensible to me to back up the sensible agrarian practice with a religious injunction to help ensure compliance.
To someone outside the flock, though, your magic numbers and all-or-nothing approach are not obviously sensible, whether backed up with appeal to superstitious dread or not.
that may be so. But an ancient Canaanite priest wouldn't care much about what others might think; he would be more concerned that his own people used the land properly to protect the food supply. From his POV, if magic numbers do the trick, then why not use them?
Btw are there any Languish Jews other than Siegy who abide by whatever it is you call the dietary restrictions?
Just curious, as I've known some lapsed/atheist Jews (and one lapsed Muslim FWIW) who are still influenced by the pork taboo.
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:18:08 AM
I am not sure what you have read, but as I pointed out, the British in India very much did care and were aware of the sources of the tallow. The myth that they didn't is one of the persistent ones about the revolt, and the reason it persists is because the sepoys falsely believed it to be true.
They cared once the issue was brought to their attention. They did not "care" on their own account.
QuoteAs I noted, a false analogy. Probably on both ends (because I am not sure anyone beyond a few fanatics really believes Americans are "Crusaders").
Merely stating the analogy is false isn't the same as demonstrating that it is.
QuoteThis makes no sense. The Mutiny started over the rumor that the Indian troops had been issued cartridges whose paper contained pig and cow fat (once the British announced that the greased cartridges would not be issued). Even when the British responded to the tallow issue, the sepoys simply believed something else, because they were convinced that an overall plan existed.
That isn't what "started" the mutiny. What "started" the mutiny was a whole series of issues that created mistrust. The fact that the brits had attempted to introduce "tallowed" cartridges was one further example, but it alone would not have created mutiny, any more than a single brick holds up an arch.
QuoteThis is typical goal-shifting. Turns out that your unsupported "it is certainly" is wrong, so now you are rewording things and calling my well-supported argument "typical ex-post thinking!" :lol:
No matter how you might want to mischaracterize it, my point stands. Are you going to continue to argue that "most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend" regardless of British actions on the "tallowed bullet" issue, given that the British never issued it, and went to lengths to assure the sepys that they would not be issued it?
Do you ever dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back? :lol: Here's a clue: if you have to characterize your *own* arguments as "well-supported", chances are they are not.
Sure, if a world-wide Muslim WW3 was to break out tomorrow, doing something about this rifle sight business would be irrelevant today. So what? As far as we know, we aren't in that position.
QuoteI don't think there are many parallels at all, and so don't ascribe to your analogy. If you actually want to make and describe this analogy, I might find it compelling. Just stating that you believe one exists isn't compelling at all (to me).
Yet you are, seemingly, of the opinion that the Mutiny *is* a good analogy. Or at least, you said as much. Otherwise, why did you respond "exactly" to my "reminiscent of the Mutiny" observation?
Ether you think the situation is reminiscent or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
Quote
Please don't tell me what my position is. I get that enough from the posters here whom I recognize don't understand intellectual dishonesty. If you cannot restrain yourself, just say so and we can end this conversation amicably. Homey just don't play that game.
Saying "is the equivalent of" is not "dishonesty". Sheesh. In between your "well-reasoned arguments" and everyone elses' "dishonesty" is is surprising you bother to waste time on us. :lol:
Quote from: derspiess on January 20, 2010, 10:35:15 AM
Btw are there any Languish Jews other than Siegy who abide by whatever it is you call the dietary restrictions?
Just curious, as I've known some lapsed/atheist Jews (and one lapsed Muslim FWIW) who are still influenced by the pork taboo.
Don't eat pork but for various reasons I wouldn't eat it no matter what my religion was.
Don't eat shellfish - but primarily because I don't like it.
Don't eat pork but for various reasons I wouldn't eat it no matter what my religion was.
[/quote]
:mad:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 10:20:41 AM
That seems to me a very narrow and crude view of a more complex phenomenon. Christianity as a religion includes many fantastic, supernatural and superstitious elements. It also incorporates powerful ethical ideas from ancient Greek and Near Eastern philosophy, ideas which have been refined and built upon by Christian thinkers and theologians over the centuries. To recognize no distinction between the Christianity which contains these ideas from the pseudo-Christianity that elides them is a basic error.
That the difference between the sheep is an essential distinction is a belief that all sheep share, but it is not an extrinsic truth. I recognize a difference between religion and philosophy, but the differences between one form of religion and another are to me so much less than between religion and non-religion that all religions look pretty much the same. Religious people scoffing at other religions/beliefs amuse me, but that is about it.
Quote from: Malthus on January 20, 2010, 10:35:32 AM
They cared once the issue was brought to their attention. They did not "care" on their own account.
They cared from the very start.
QuoteMerely stating the analogy is false isn't the same as demonstrating that it is.
The burden of proof isn't on me.
QuoteThat isn't what "started" the mutiny. What "started" the mutiny was a whole series of issues that created mistrust.
So you are now going to argue what the meaning of "started? is? :bleeding:
I am not playing that game. I am done here.
i did not have sex with that woman
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:01:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2010, 09:47:42 AM
grumbler, I don't think Teh Jews appreciate your mocking of their pagan faith!
To point out that superstitions all look the same to someone not subject to them is not mocking, it is merely observing. I think Judaism is as sensible, and as senseless, as Mormonism or Tibetan Buddhism.
If Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry (though it is amusing to hear them talk about other people's beliefs as "superstitions").
To other sheep in the flock, each sheep probably does look distinctive. To me, they all look like sheep.
Eh, Athiests are like that to me. Except replace sheep with 15 year old know it alls.
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 11:02:59 AM
So you are now going to argue what the meaning of "started? is? :bleeding:
Books have been written on that very subject.
Eg. http://www.amazon.com/Causes-English-Revolution-1529-1642/dp/0415266734 (http://www.amazon.com/Causes-English-Revolution-1529-1642/dp/0415266734)
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:56:54 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 10:20:41 AM
That seems to me a very narrow and crude view of a more complex phenomenon. Christianity as a religion includes many fantastic, supernatural and superstitious elements. It also incorporates powerful ethical ideas from ancient Greek and Near Eastern philosophy, ideas which have been refined and built upon by Christian thinkers and theologians over the centuries. To recognize no distinction between the Christianity which contains these ideas from the pseudo-Christianity that elides them is a basic error.
That the difference between the sheep is an essential distinction is a belief that all sheep share, but it is not an extrinsic truth. I recognize a difference between religion and philosophy, but the differences between one form of religion and another are to me so much less than between religion and non-religion that all religions look pretty much the same. Religious people scoffing at other religions/beliefs amuse me, but that is about it.
Too bad, but I give you credit for owning up to your limitations. :)
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:01:10 AM
If Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry (though it is amusing to hear them talk about other people's beliefs as "superstitions").
When the origins of Christianity are brought up, and mention is made of Christianity's "pagan roots", it's should come as no surprise that Jews might think that there are being referenced, and referred to as "pagan".
Quote from: dps on January 20, 2010, 11:55:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 20, 2010, 10:01:10 AM
If Jews think that they are being referenced when one talks about superstitions, I am sorry (though it is amusing to hear them talk about other people's beliefs as "superstitions").
When the origins of Christianity are brought up, and mention is made of Christianity's "pagan roots", it's should come as no surprise that Jews might think that there are being referenced, and referred to as "pagan".
That's not at all the link I would make. :huh:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 11:36:38 AM
Books have been written on that very subject.
Eg. http://www.amazon.com/Causes-English-Revolution-1529-1642/dp/0415266734 (http://www.amazon.com/Causes-English-Revolution-1529-1642/dp/0415266734)
Yes, books have been written on the meaning of "beginning," (though maybe not the one you use as an example), which is all the more reason to discontinue a discussion when it devolves to that point - all the more so when my point depends not at all on what event started the Indian Mutiny.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 20, 2010, 11:50:38 AM
Too bad, but I give you credit for owning up to your limitations. :)
Not being one of the sheep, I am not conscious of any sense of loss from having that limitation.
But thanks for the 'grats. I will try to be sure to congratulate you, in return, when you learn to own up to your own limitations. :)
Quote from: dps on January 20, 2010, 11:55:27 AM
When the origins of Christianity are brought up, and mention is made of Christianity's "pagan roots", it's should come as no surprise that Jews might think that there are being referenced, and referred to as "pagan".
Given that the person first making reference to "pagan" in reference to Christians was himself Jewish, I assume he would know.
I understand intellectually that some sheep see the word "pagan" as some kind of insult, but to me it is just another word. If my use of it was different from the preceding use in some way visible to the flock but not me, I apologize for any hurt feelings.
Grumbler also doesn't understand why the sheep care what type of government they have, what country they are in, or what planet they are on.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 20, 2010, 01:17:48 PM
Grumbler also doesn't understand why the sheep care what type of government they have, what country they are in, or what planet they are on.
I don't? Thanks awfully for telling me, because I did not know that I did not understand by your lights. :hug:
Frankly, I think I prefer not understanding by your lights.
But do carry on with your mud pies.
Where did the sheep come from?
Sheep are mammals, not fish.
Sheep are also not part of the dietary restrictions of many religions (pagan or otherwise).
Quote from: dps on January 20, 2010, 11:55:27 AM
When the origins of Christianity are brought up, and mention is made of Christianity's "pagan roots", it's should come as no surprise that Jews might think that there are being referenced, and referred to as "pagan".
I would be very surprised if a Jewish person made that connection. It would be more reasonable to think that the reference to Christianity's pagan roots meant the pagan traditions of the contemporary pagan religions from which Christianity borrowed rather then the Jewish traditions which were also expressly incorporated through the OT.
Trijicon will be removing the inscriptions:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/trijicon-will-remove-secr_n_432349.html
Quote
WASHINGTON — A Michigan defense contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights made for the U.S. military, a major buyer of the company's gear.
In a statement released Thursday, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., says it is also providing to the armed forces free of charge modification kits to remove the Scripture citations from the telescoping sights already in use. Through multimillion dollar contracts, the Marine Corps and Army have bought more than 300,000 Trijicon sights.
The references to Bible passages raised concerns that the citations break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are predominantly Muslim countries.
A spokesman for U.S. Central Command initially said the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban and compared the citations on the sights to the "In God We Trust" inscription printed on U.S. currency.
On Thursday, however, Army Gen. David Petraeus, Central Command's top officer, called the practice "disturbing."
"This is a serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan," Petraeus told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
In a statement issued later by the command, Petraeus said that "cultural and religious sensitivities are important considerations in the conduct of military operations."
New Zealand announced Thursday that they would remove the citations from the sights they have, and Australia, which also uses the sights, is assessing what to do.
New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.
The inscriptions are not obvious and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.
Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said in a letter sent Thursday to President Barack Obama that the gun sights "clearly violate" the rule against proselytizing. Gaddy added that "images of American soldiers as Christian crusaders come to mind when they are carrying weaponry bearing such verses."
Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.
The company's practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.
"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," Stephen Bindon said in the statement.
The statement does not provide an estimate on the removal costs. A company spokesman did not return a telephone call.
The company is also making the same offer to military in other countries that have purchased Trijicon's rifle sights.
An Army spokesman said Thursday the service was unaware of the coded biblical references until a few days ago.
"It is not the policy of the Army or the Department of Defense to put religious references of any kind on its equipment," Lt. Col. Jimmie Cummings said.
Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Geraldine Carey said the service "is making every effort to remove these markings from all of our scopes and will ensure that all future procurement of these scopes will not have these types of markings."