Last weekend I went from playing the Russian 14th Century mod for Mount & Blade to Dragon Age, and during the transition something hit me pretty hard.
Even to me, the Russian armor and buildings, even the people, looked far more foreign and exotic than anything in Dragon Age. The huge, tall Russian helmets, the lamellar Mongol armor, and enough colors in a battle to make your average gay rave seem like people going to Mormon temple, while almost every people or city in Dragon Age has some kind of direct equivalent in the Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Faerun or Greyhawk. I've been exposed to High Fantasy so much that I expect that if I were to one day somehow encounter a Tolkeinesque Dwarf, or a Faerun Elf, I'd be surprised but would probably know the basics of their culture and looks even.
I don't think that is true of the vast majority of historical settings, or alternative fantasy settings. One of the reasons I loved Jade Empire so much was that it managed to make Fantasy feel exotic again. During my first play through Jade Empire, at about 3-4 am, while I was kind of stoned, I ran into the realm of the Fox Spirit, and was just dumbstruck by the entire level. I had a furry-hot Spirit Fox talking to me about celestial balance, with a Demon Elephant protecting her.
I don't think this just applies to dark fantasy either. The Darkspawn are basically Orks-Goblins, even more faithfully than in D&D due to their diversity of forms, like in Tolkien. It is hard to be spooked by the evil they pose, because everyone here has probably killed thousands of orcs already, or and probably seen or read about tens of thousands killed. All the blood, the evil magic, it is far too cliche to be interesting, let alone threatening.
Let's imagine an RPG set in a semi-mythologized ancient Middle-East. You have Assyrians throwing babies off of walls, the Egyptians sealing live servants into Pyramids, Phoenicians throwing their first born sons in to the gaping mouths of their God, and further abroad you have cults of head hunters, cannibals....these were some truly terrifying people. And next-to-nothing has ever been done about them. And when BioWare produced a MASTERPIECE set in a fantasy version of China, it just didn't sell.
So why do people still consistently choose High Fantasy? I think what was neat and exotic about Tolkien's world has become, weirdly, far more cliched than anything Tolkien was working with. Weirdly, I found the world of Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, with its Faeries and screaming stones, far more interesting and less cliched than anything involving Elves and Orcs.
Because we aren't all like you.
Quote from: garbon on December 01, 2009, 05:48:52 PM
Because we aren't all like you.
Fae voiced IIRC almost the exact same opinion in the Dragon Age thread, and the No Punctuation review spent most of its time bitching about pseudo-Tolkienisms.
I say that we aren't all like you and you come back to me with less than a handful of examples? :thumbsdown:
Anyway, I'm not trying to be flippant. It's just the truth. High fantasy is comforting in its traditionality. I don't read fantasy because I want to experience the exotic and unknown.
I find it odd that the Chinese don't have much in the way of fantasy themselves.
They have lots of fantasy movies sure, but these are all pseudo-historical, pseudo-mythilogical. Not out and out fantasy. The likes of Hero and Flying Daggers are all set in a fictional version of history, more Robin Hood or King Arthur than LOTR.
The Japanese of course do a lot of fantasy. Much of it is western themeed but a lot of it is weird. The trouble is...its just too alien. All these mythilogical creatures that the creators take for advantage that the audience will know their usual attributes. Different creatures to those we have in the west.
But then...how on earth do we have the 'standard' stock fantasy troll so different to our mythilogical troll?
The line between "out-and-out" fantasy and history-based Fantasy is fantastically thin, near-non existent. Tolkien clearly drew on European history, and Dragon Age draws even more clearly on it. I don't think there is that great of a distinction.
Jos, really? The Chinese have many mythical creatures. A common one is the dragon...
Quote from: garbon on December 01, 2009, 06:06:57 PM
Jos, really? The Chinese have many mythical creatures. A common one is the dragon...
I said nothing about that, they no doubt do (though I bet much of it was frowned up strongly until recently). They don't make fantasy out of their mythology though. They stay in fairly realistic history (albeit with super human feats)
Quote from: garbon on December 01, 2009, 05:55:38 PM
I don't read fantasy because I want to experience the exotic and unknown.
There's something more than a little odd about this statement, unless you come into contact with magic and elves and whatnot on a regular basis.
I mean, that might explain why you keep reading fantasy now, but then why did you ever start?
Lightning bolt!
I wouldn't classify Dragon Age as high fantasy. It's no Forgotten Realms.
Speaking of your Dragon Age game, World net Daily has noticed the gay in it.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
And when BioWare produced a MASTERPIECE set in a fantasy version of China, it just didn't sell.
Humm, it didn't sell? How dissapointing.
I'm tempted to start condescending about how geeks are just sheep, but I don't know.
Quote from: Tyr on December 01, 2009, 06:01:12 PMI find it odd that the Chinese don't have much in the way of fantasy themselves.
They have lots of fantasy movies sure, but these are all pseudo-historical, pseudo-mythilogical. Not out and out fantasy. The likes of Hero and Flying Daggers are all set in a fictional version of history, more Robin Hood or King Arthur than LOTR.
Warrior and the Wolf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi1KDTXcmu0
Painted Skin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lr7mg_0PQc&feature=PlayList&p=AB0081BC3ACF8A28&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4
Both seem pretty fantasy to me but I guess it's not entirely divorced from a historical context. I do think that's happening due to the influence of Western fantasy. Dragon Oath ( http://do.us.changyou.com/new/2009110602.shtml ) is clearly Chinese in origin but quite divorced from anything historical.
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
That, and, due to its near-universal appeal, movie/game writers who can't afford to make a dud will keep utilizing it as a setting over and over again. If you can be original and compelling in your plotline, why do you need a totally original setting for it?
This kind of reminds me of that one Ryoken thread where he wanted game companies to make weirdass games only he would buy.
Quote from: Caliga on December 01, 2009, 07:23:19 PM
This kind of reminds me of that one Ryoken thread where he wanted game companies to make weirdass games only he would buy.
LOLZ.
Quote from: ulmont on December 01, 2009, 06:22:31 PM
There's something more than a little odd about this statement, unless you come into contact with magic and elves and whatnot on a regular basis.
I mean, that might explain why you keep reading fantasy now, but then why did you ever start?
Isn't that obvious? It was once exotic (like when I was 10) but now it is not. :mellow:
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2009, 05:35:22 PMAnd when BioWare produced a MASTERPIECE set in a fantasy version of China, it just didn't sell.
It didn't sell because it wasn't very good.
I liked it, especially the evil ending. But Mass Effect and Dragon Age are definitely better products.
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
Have you actually played Dragon Age?
I wouldn't call it a game where "evil is relatively easy to identify".
Quote from: Martinus on December 01, 2009, 07:51:19 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
Have you actually played Dragon Age?
I wouldn't call it a game where "evil is relatively easy to identify".
I would. And I have played it.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
I don't think that is true of the vast majority of historical settings, or alternative fantasy settings. One of the reasons I loved Jade Empire so much was that it managed to make Fantasy feel exotic again. During my first play through Jade Empire, at about 3-4 am, while I was kind of stoned, I ran into the realm of the Fox Spirit, and was just dumbstruck by the entire level. I had a furry-hot Spirit Fox talking to me about celestial balance, with a Demon Elephant protecting her.
You must have been stoned pretty good, because that was an episode of The Simpsons.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 01, 2009, 08:15:25 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
I don't think that is true of the vast majority of historical settings, or alternative fantasy settings. One of the reasons I loved Jade Empire so much was that it managed to make Fantasy feel exotic again. During my first play through Jade Empire, at about 3-4 am, while I was kind of stoned, I ran into the realm of the Fox Spirit, and was just dumbstruck by the entire level. I had a furry-hot Spirit Fox talking to me about celestial balance, with a Demon Elephant protecting her.
You must have been stoned pretty good, because that was an episode of The Simpsons.
lolz
Speaking for myself, I read fiction the way I play games: Story over setting.
Whether the antagonists are orcs, trollocs or vampiric bunnies is irrelevant as long as I'm being told a good story.
The setting only serves as a vehicle for the story, and if it distracts rather than attracts, it becomes meaningless.
I saw an animated film a while back called "Dragon Hunters" and while I was strangely fascinated by the way they played with physics and the standard format of monsters it just didn't "work" and while it was interesting to watch, I couldn't really enjoy the story.
I think people enjoy what they are familiar with because it's easier to get emotionally involved with what you're familiar with. If you don't have to spend time figuring out how the universe works, you can focus on the meat of the story which is the characters. Most stories follow a very similar format and eventually all become pretty predictable but we still go to see the new Bruce Willis movie or buy the latest Wheel of Time book because we like being entertained in a predictable fashion.
Spoiler alert:
Rand will defeat the Dark One.
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:11:31 PM
Both seem pretty fantasy to me but I guess it's not entirely divorced from a historical context. I do think that's happening due to the influence of Western fantasy. Dragon Oath ( http://do.us.changyou.com/new/2009110602.shtml (http://do.us.changyou.com/new/2009110602.shtml) ) is clearly Chinese in origin but quite divorced from anything historical.
Is it even possible to completely divorce fiction from historical context? What would that kind of fiction even look like?
High Fantasy is appealing and harkens back to western culture, which is nice if your a reactionary.
In addition, I should say, there's only so much freaky shit you can come up with before you start inventing rapist squids, and I'm not entirely convinced anyone sane can or should enjoy stuff like that.
Quote from: Lettow77 on December 01, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
High Fantasy is appealing and harkens back to western culture, which is nice if your a reactionary.
I know what you mean. I so wanna go live in a castle.
Quote from: garbon on December 01, 2009, 08:45:57 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on December 01, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
High Fantasy is appealing and harkens back to western culture, which is nice if your a reactionary.
I know what you mean. I so wanna go live in a castle.
:yes: Dying at 45 is also awesome.
Too many fantasy authors (including especially game story authors) are uncreative, simply rehashing what's been done over, and over, and over. I'd like to see some fresher fantasy settings that get away from the Tolkinesque D&D stuff.
Thats going to get harder and harder. Good story telling or no, the modern gamer and maybe even reader is too lazy to bother fully learning a new lore. What is familiar is most comforting.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on December 01, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
Too many fantasy authors (including especially game story authors) are uncreative, simply rehashing what's been done over, and over, and over. I'd like to see some fresher fantasy settings that get away from the Tolkinesque D&D stuff.
Yeah I don't see the point. You can tell a perfectly entertaining and compelling story with the established tropes and archetypes. If somebody out there has a compelling new idea then I will be happy to see it but no concept produces more crap then trying to be different for the sake of being different.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 09:42:21 PM
Thats going to get harder and harder. Good story telling or no, the modern gamer and maybe even reader is too lazy to bother fully learning a new lore. What is familiar is most comforting.
Nonsense. Of course they will if it is good and compelling.
Most of the stuff comes out ends up looking like an acid trip. Like Neverending Story or something.
Quote from: Valmy on December 01, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 09:42:21 PM
Thats going to get harder and harder. Good story telling or no, the modern gamer and maybe even reader is too lazy to bother fully learning a new lore. What is familiar is most comforting.
Nonsense. Of course they will if it is good and compelling.
Pinch me when you return to reality. No, they will not.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
And next-to-nothing has ever been done about them.
The Forgotten Realms had huge nations devoted to those cultures but nobody had much interest. It is hard to get people all excited about the archetype of the heroic Sumerian unless you introduce it in a way that gets people excited.
Jade Empire was a sort of meh action game that did seem to have a good plot...but I was playing it on X-Box and the thing kept dying on me. I also heard it was short...and that is not good.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 09:47:54 PM
Pinch me when you return to reality. No, they will not.
I would name an example but I don't believe anybody has come up with something wholly original in centuries. Harry Potter, which was a very different sort of fantasy, basically combined lots of other well known story elements and tropes together.
Harry Potter was a "different sort of fantasy"? Really?
Evil wizards and magical spells is way off the radar in your book, eh?
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 09:55:55 PM
Harry Potter was a "different sort of fantasy"? Really?
Evil wizards and magical spells is way off the radar in your book, eh?
So....you want a fantasy story with no evil wizards and magical spells eh? Do you next want Sci Fi that is not set in space?
Anyway I meant it was a fantasy story that was a different sort than the standard Tolkienesque D&D stuff.
Oh.
I wasn't aware Tolkien didnt have wizards, magic, and dragons..
OH WAIT.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 10:03:30 PM
Oh.
I wasn't aware Tolkien didnt have wizards, magic, and dragons..
OH WAIT.
Well since my entire point was that even when they stray from the standard quasi-medieval fantasy Kingdom thing it still isn't very original that simply backs up what I was trying to say.
BS.
Your original point was that Harry Potter was a very different kind of fantasy sewn together from a lot of commonly held notion.
MY point is that Harry Potter is not different at all.
Quit arguing with me.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 10:19:04 PM
BS.
Your original point was that Harry Potter was a very different kind of fantasy sewn together from a lot of commonly held notion.
MY point is that Harry Potter is not different at all.
Quit arguing with me.
Ok what was the previous fantasy novel set in a modern day wizard boarding school where the central plot revolved around teenagers going through puberty with wizards?
Quote from: Valmy on December 01, 2009, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on December 01, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
Too many fantasy authors (including especially game story authors) are uncreative, simply rehashing what's been done over, and over, and over. I'd like to see some fresher fantasy settings that get away from the Tolkinesque D&D stuff.
Yeah I don't see the point. You can tell a perfectly entertaining and compelling story with the established tropes and archetypes. If somebody out there has a compelling new idea then I will be happy to see it but no concept produces more crap then trying to be different for the sake of being different.
The problem is that most writers who are lazy and rip off Tolkien and D&D are too lazy to create interesting, dynamic characters or tell an indepth, well-plotted story.
Quote from: Valmy on December 01, 2009, 11:19:35 PM
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 10:19:04 PM
BS.
Your original point was that Harry Potter was a very different kind of fantasy sewn together from a lot of commonly held notion.
MY point is that Harry Potter is not different at all.
Quit arguing with me.
Ok what was the previous fantasy novel set in a modern day wizard boarding school where the central plot revolved around teenagers going through puberty with wizards?
That isn't the point. The point is not that her combination of elements made a new story, but rather than those individual elements were not new ideas.
Quote from: Jaron on December 02, 2009, 12:04:13 AM
That isn't the point. The point is not that her combination of elements made a new story, but rather than those individual elements were not new ideas.
She basically stole major plot points from Final Fantasy VIII. Originality my ass.
I think Harry Potter was first, Kyle love.
Quote from: Jaron on December 02, 2009, 12:21:18 AM
I think Harry Potter was first, Kyle love.
Really because as far as I know most of the series came after.
Quote from: Valmy on December 01, 2009, 11:19:35 PM
Ok what was the previous fantasy novel set in a modern day wizard boarding school where the central plot revolved around teenagers going through puberty with wizards?
Wait so is Twilight original because it but Vampires in high school?
If you ignore his usual russo-fetish, QQ is right: I am bored to no end with standard fantasy, and yes Marty, despite having gay sex, Dragon Age is very standard high fantasy with some darker overtones.
I'd be intrigued by some type of setting with Native American type mythology and culture used as a basis. It's familiar, but would be slightly different from the typical Western European style fantasy, which I still really dig. I have no problems with Warhammer, Dragon Age, and the like drawing from that. As others have said, it's the story and the way you use those familiar elements in a new way which makes it fun and interesting for me.
Quote from: Slargos on December 01, 2009, 08:22:16 PM
Speaking for myself, I read fiction the way I play games: Story over setting.
Whether the antagonists are orcs, trollocs or vampiric bunnies is irrelevant as long as I'm being told a good story.
The setting only serves as a vehicle for the story, and if it distracts rather than attracts, it becomes meaningless.
I saw an animated film a while back called "Dragon Hunters" and while I was strangely fascinated by the way they played with physics and the standard format of monsters it just didn't "work" and while it was interesting to watch, I couldn't really enjoy the story.
I think people enjoy what they are familiar with because it's easier to get emotionally involved with what you're familiar with. If you don't have to spend time figuring out how the universe works, you can focus on the meat of the story which is the characters. Most stories follow a very similar format and eventually all become pretty predictable but we still go to see the new Bruce Willis movie or buy the latest Wheel of Time book because we like being entertained in a predictable fashion.
Spoiler alert:
Rand will defeat the Dark One.
He already did, at the end of The Dragon Reborn. Jordan just didn't want to end his gravy train.
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
This is really it. It is escapism without being too far afield, that boring comfort that Garbon is tired of, the good and evil supposedly set in a different time (yet with people who could easily be living today with their assumptions), all wrapped in a thin veneer of "difference" that allows one to read the same story over and over.
In a way, fantasy mirrors the late Modern the same way UFOs mirror the Cold War.
Quote from: Valmy on December 01, 2009, 11:19:35 PM
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 10:19:04 PM
BS.
Your original point was that Harry Potter was a very different kind of fantasy sewn together from a lot of commonly held notion.
MY point is that Harry Potter is not different at all.
Quit arguing with me.
Ok what was the previous fantasy novel set in a modern day wizard boarding school where the central plot revolved around teenagers going through puberty with wizards?
Discworld. but it was a college and the wizards were all grown up. :P
Quote from: PDH on December 02, 2009, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
This is really it. It is escapism without being too far afield, that boring comfort that Garbon is tired of, the good and evil supposedly set in a different time (yet with people who could easily be living today with their assumptions), all wrapped in a thin veneer of "difference" that allows one to read the same story over and over.
In a way, fantasy mirrors the late Modern the same way UFOs mirror the Cold War.
interesting.
do you think that Fantasy is more popular today (the 00's) than say in the (Tolkien 60's and the D&D 70's and 80's ?
I have already stated I am tired of elves and other tolkienesque/D&D races. any new fantasy game or book that involves those ... at this point ... will probably be ignored by me.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 08:10:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 01, 2009, 07:51:19 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 01, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
But I agree - people like high fantasy because it's comforting. It speaks to a few core beliefs that people like to see (special people have special magic powers and are destined to succeed, evil is relatively easy to identify and gets its comeuppance in the end). Enough modern assumptions are kept which, combined with the reuse of tropes, motifs, monsters and so on makes it very easy to get into new work once you're into the genre.
Have you actually played Dragon Age?
I wouldn't call it a game where "evil is relatively easy to identify".
I would. And I have played it.
I agree with Jaron, in DA it's disturbingly clear that every decision has a good and an evil option. That's actually a major complaint about the storyline on the game forums.
Quote from: PDH on December 02, 2009, 10:41:53 AM
that boring comfort that Garbon is tired of
I'm not tired of comfort. It's like Rocky Road. There are times that you need it.
Quote from: saskganesh on December 02, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
I have already stated I am tired of elves and other tolkienesque/D&D races. any new fantasy game or book that involves those ... at this point ... will probably be ignored by me.
So you'll ignore one game every 3-5 years?
Quote from: Lettow77 on December 01, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
High Fantasy is appealing and harkens back to western culture, which is nice if your a reactionary.
Western culture isn't a period in the past that one can hearken back too :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 02, 2009, 01:16:40 PM
Western culture isn't a period in the past that one can hearken back too :mellow:
Western culture is dead and only existed at one idyllic moment in the past.
Quote from: Martinus on December 01, 2009, 07:51:19 PMHave you actually played Dragon Age?
I wouldn't call it a game where "evil is relatively easy to identify".
Have you actually read the thread? It's a thread about the "Continued Appeal of High Fantasy", not a specific game.
Quote from: Slargos on December 01, 2009, 08:25:54 PMIs it even possible to completely divorce fiction from historical context? What would that kind of fiction even look like?
I don't think so, but at this point I think high fantasy are several more layers of reference away from the historical context than the equivalent Chinese stuff and since that was part of what Caliga was talking about I wanted to acknowledge that.
Quote from: Jaron on December 01, 2009, 09:42:21 PM
Thats going to get harder and harder. Good story telling or no, the modern gamer and maybe even reader is too lazy to bother fully learning a new lore. What is familiar is most comforting.
Yeah it's true. It also isn't helped by the fact that most "new lore" that people come up with is fantastically tedious. Who cares if Shmebiggan from the land of Crapulitania is concerned about the Maboggins invading through the mountains of Blabbablabba to gain control of the ancient Uggadax and institute the the worship of the foul Flaxlords or whatever? Most "new lore" is just silly names and one dimensional stereotypes it seems to me.
The "lore" should serve the interest of the story and the world, and if it is to serve the world there needs to be a point to why it's different.
That's actually the way I've felt about the lore in Dragon Age. I don't feel like trying to remember all the background shit, nor am I impressed with all of the supposed work went into constructing it like alot of people seem to be.
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
That's actually the way I've felt about the lore in Dragon Age. I don't feel like trying to remember all the background shit, nor am I impressed with all of the supposed work went into constructing it like alot of people seem to be.
Work? They ripped off a dozen different sources and, for their countries, just said "fuck it" and took stereotypes of various kingdoms during the Middle Ages.
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
That's actually the way I've felt about the lore in Dragon Age. I don't feel like trying to remember all the background shit, nor am I impressed with all of the supposed work went into constructing it like alot of people seem to be.
I think you have a problem with this game for some reason. :P I found the DA lore to well done for what it is - a bakcground setting. Sure it's a number of clichés but what isn't these days?
Here's a good candidate for an RPG - one that should please everyone since it's very different in terms of settings and the main character is gay. :lol:
The Stone Dance of the Chameleon - http://www.ricardopinto.com/index.php - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stone_Dance_of_the_Chameleon
G.
Quote from: Habbaku on December 02, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
That's actually the way I've felt about the lore in Dragon Age. I don't feel like trying to remember all the background shit, nor am I impressed with all of the supposed work went into constructing it like alot of people seem to be.
Work? They ripped off a dozen different sources and, for their countries, just said "fuck it" and took stereotypes of various kingdoms during the Middle Ages.
That's why I said "supposed work" :huh: But I mean one time I looked in the DA forums someplace and a bunch of fanbois were all "OMG MOST ORIGENUL SETTING EVAR"
I dunno - with DA:O I'm vaguely impressed that they sat down and gave some thought to the setting and it's history. Many games/settings really just invent the stuff as they go along.
But yeah in the end it's just background.
Quote from: Habbaku on December 02, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
That's actually the way I've felt about the lore in Dragon Age. I don't feel like trying to remember all the background shit, nor am I impressed with all of the supposed work went into constructing it like alot of people seem to be.
Work? They ripped off a dozen different sources and, for their countries, just said "fuck it" and took stereotypes of various kingdoms during the Middle Ages.
That is not fair they definitely put work and thought in to it. But yes the whole idea was to use recognizable archetypes and put a spin on them. For somebody who doesn't care they don't have to work hard to recognize what is there and for somebody who does there is alot of detail to enjoy.
It looks like to me you are just trying to put the worst possible spin on it. I assure you enormous games like Dragon Age take alot of thought and effort.
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2009, 02:57:08 PM
That's why I said "supposed work" :huh: But I mean one time I looked in the DA forums someplace and a bunch of fanbois were all "OMG MOST ORIGENUL SETTING EVAR"
Well it was intentionally designed to be the "spiritual successor to Baldu's Gate" so it was never intended to be original in the first place but classic fantasy with some touches. Naturally some people confuse liking the game with attaching every single hyperbole they can imagine and hammering everything critical about it.
Quote from: Jacob on December 02, 2009, 02:31:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 01, 2009, 07:51:19 PMHave you actually played Dragon Age?
I wouldn't call it a game where "evil is relatively easy to identify".
Have you actually read the thread? It's a thread about the "Continued Appeal of High Fantasy", not a specific game.
Don't worry Jacob, in the DA thread Marti was going on about how is was grouped with his "evil" party that made him do "evil" things and now he is replaying with his "good" party and doing "good" things.
So while he would call DA a game where evil is not easy to indentify he was in fact able to indentify the evil and so I will leave it to others to conclude whether it is easy or not.
As a friend of mine said once, "High fantasy is when people don't shit." Lore or not, it is very hard to do properly so that the setting seems "real." Too often it is repetitive regurgitation, the same things over and over that don't just seem to work.
Quote from: garbon on December 02, 2009, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 02, 2009, 01:16:40 PM
Western culture isn't a period in the past that one can hearken back too :mellow:
Western culture is dead and only existed at one idyllic moment in the past.
Apparently the one with Elves.
Quote from: PDH on December 02, 2009, 08:01:53 PM
As a friend of mine said once, "High fantasy is when people don't shit." Lore or not, it is very hard to do properly so that the setting seems "real." Too often it is repetitive regurgitation, the same things over and over that don't just seem to work.
This strikes me as largely accurate. I never doubted that people shat in the Thief, universe for instance, and that is one of my favorite sci-fi/fantasy universes around.
Hell, I think I flashbombed and clubbed a few guards while making the effort. :lol:
I find Steven Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" to be a very fresh series while we're on the subject of originality.
Quote from: Slargos on December 02, 2009, 09:05:18 PM
I find Steven Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" to be a very fresh series while we're on the subject of originality.
I like Erikson a lot, but it strikes me as the Black Company series from the viewpoint of the Taken.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on December 02, 2009, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on December 02, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
I have already stated I am tired of elves and other tolkienesque/D&D races. any new fantasy game or book that involves those ... at this point ... will probably be ignored by me.
So you'll ignore one game every 3-5 years?
? there's more than one game a year published that features elves et al.
Quote from: Slargos on December 02, 2009, 09:05:18 PM
I find Steven Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" to be a very fresh series while we're on the subject of originality.
He delights in deus Ex and hyperbole far too much. :thumbsdown:
G.