QuoteCourt ruling paves way for Istanbul's Hagia Sophia to revert to mosque
Status of Unesco-listed 1,500-year-old building has been hotly debated for decades
A Turkish court ruling has paved the way for Istanbul's crowning architectural jewel, the Hagia Sophia museum, to be turned back into a mosque – a politically charged decision that has drawn international criticism but delighted the president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's conservative base.
Turkey's highest administrative court, the Council of State, ruled unanimously on Friday to annul a 1934 presidential decree that stripped the Hagia Sophia of its religious status and turned it into a museum. The government can now take steps to convert the 1,500-year-old building back into a Muslim house of worship.
The Unesco-listed Hagia Sophia (Divine Wisdom), or Ayasofya in Turkish, was completed in 537AD by the Byzantine emperor Justinian, and for centuries served as one of the world's most important centres of Christianity.
The cathedral was converted into an imperial mosque 550 years ago after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, and then became a museum on the orders of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the founder of the Turkish Republic.
The status of the world heritage site has been hotly debated for decades by Christians, Muslims and those who believe in preserving the Turkish state's secular principles.
Friday's ruling settled a case brought by a religious group that has campaigned for years for the Hagia Sophia to be reconverted into a mosque. It questioned the legality of Atatürk's decision, telling the court that the building was the personal property of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, who conquered Istanbul in 1453.
Erdoğan, who has championed Islamic values during his 17 years in power, publicly took up the cause last year in an effort to shore up waning support for his ruling Justice and Development party (AKP).
Recent polling by a pro-government newspaper found that 73% of Turks were in favour of converting the museum back into a house of worship, although another survey conducted by Metropoll found that 44% of respondents believed the building's fate had been put on the agenda to divert voters' attention away from Turkey's economic woes.
In the run-up to the court's decision, Ankara's international allies and foes alike criticised the impending move. The decision has further soured tensions with neighbouring Greece, which claims the building as an important part of its own history.
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual head of 300 million Orthodox Christians, said altering the status of the building would fracture the eastern and western worlds. Russia's Orthodox church said on Thursday that turning it into a mosque was "unacceptable".
Last week the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, said any change would diminish the Hagia Sophia's ability "to serve humanity as a much-needed bridge between those of differing faith, traditions and cultures."
Unesco, too, has said any changes to the building's status must be reviewed by its world heritage committee.
The first prayers in the building are expected to be held on 15 July, the fourth anniversary of a failed coup against Erdoğan's government.
Wow. I know that sometimes I am behind the times, but I didn't realize I was this far behind the times.
I thought the Hagia Sophia was still a mosque. I didn't know it was converted into a museum in 1934.
He may or may not be doing it for the wrong reasons, but I don't see a problem with it being a mosque again. Many old historically important religious buildings still serve as religious buildings without any problems. There are some risks I suppose (if Erdogan or a successor thinks that pleasing some future hardcore nutters is more important than tourist money the building and its art could be in jeopardy), but they don't seem astronomical to this observer.
It belongs in a museum!
Quote from: The Brain on July 10, 2020, 10:47:44 AM
He may or may not be doing it for the wrong reasons, but I don't see a problem with it being a mosque again.
Well the problem with it being a mosque of course is that it should instead be a church.
Yeah. I don't really see the issue with it - I know it's sensitive to Orthodox Christians and Catholics. I remember there were fears that when Benedict XVI visited he might say a prayer which would kick off a storm because it is an entirely secular building in Turkey's system.
Maybe it couldn't be state funded as a mosque? But you can visit all of the mosques in Istanbul anyway and it's not like it would look differently as a mosque because it had been one for several hundred years before it became a museum. And it's also not a museum with lots of exhibits. So I don't really see how it would change very much as a visitor if it was a mosque.
It is, relatedly near mosques, and I went to Istanbul for a trip a few years ago in January just after the terrorist attacks so it was very quiet. And walking through a very empty Hagia Sofia when the call to prayer started was an amazing experience.
Quote from: Barrister on July 10, 2020, 11:06:58 AM
Well the problem with it being a mosque of course is that it should instead be a church.
Sure. And Westminster Abbey should be in the hands of the Benedictines or for that matter the Basilica in Ravenna should really still be Greek Orthodox.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 10, 2020, 11:09:09 AMSo I don't really see how it would change very much as a visitor if it was a mosque.
The only issue from a visitor's standpoint, AFAIK, is that all mosaics and human representations in the building would have to be covered, as you can't depict people in islamic places of worship. I read somewhere that how that'll be done hasn't been decided yet, there were talks of installing curtains to cover them during prayer times, which is something that has been done in other fomer Byzantine churches turned mosques in recent times (this is the 5th time that a former Byzantine church has been turned into a mosque during Erdogan's rule, following amongst others the Hagia Sophias of Trebizond and Nicea). Also UNESCO should have been notified beforehand due to the change of use for the building, given that it's a World Heritage Site.
Apparently Erdogan has already signed the official decree to turn it into a mosque, so I guess that the interrogation sign in the thread title is not really necessary anymore.
So, when's the Pope calling for a crusade?
Silly populism.
The Hagia Sophia is a very popular tourist attraction, one of Istanbul's main draws.
As a mosque?... there's already enough large mosques in the area isn't there? I'm not familiar with any capacity problems.
QuoteMaybe it couldn't be state funded as a mosque? But you can visit all of the mosques in Istanbul anyway and it's not like it would look differently as a mosque because it had been one for several hundred years before it became a museum. And it's also not a museum with lots of exhibits. So I don't really see how it would change very much as a visitor if it was a mosque.
Ish. I remember back when I visited you did have a lot less freedom to look around in the mosques. I'm not sure how it would be for women too. No matter whether its a church or a mosque or whatever being an active place of worship will bring some drawbacks.
Tbf most Catholic cathedrals remain active places of worship while being cultural attractions. I don't trust Erdogan's agenda in this (or pretty much anything), but on principle I'm not against it being restored to worship.
I mean admittedly I went in January so we were all wrapped up, but I think there were still signs asking people to dress respectfully - though you'd have to take your shoes off. We visited the Blue Mosque which was absolutely fine and that was during prayers.
QuoteSo, when's the Pope calling for a crusade?
:lol: Benedict XVI un-abdicates.
QuoteThe only issue from a visitor's standpoint, AFAIK, is that all mosaics and human representations in the building would have to be covered, as you can't depict people in islamic places of worship. I read somewhere that how that'll be done hasn't been decided yet, there were talks of installing curtains to cover them during prayer times, which is something that has been done in other fomer Byzantine churches turned mosques in recent times (this is the 5th time that a former Byzantine church has been turned into a mosque during Erdogan's rule, following amongst others the Hagia Sophias of Trebizond and Nicea). Also UNESCO should have been notified beforehand due to the change of use for the building, given that it's a World Heritage Site.
That makes sense - I mean I loved the palimpsestical nature of Hagia Sofia with the mosaics, and the graffiti by bored vikings, and the huge "no God but God" signs etc. So I'm kind of comfortable with curtains or something like that.
Plus I have a general preference to religious spaces being used as religious spaces not being museums. Nothing will get me more unreasonably angry than being charged to enter a church (this is probably why I've still never been in most of Westminster Abbey :blush:) when I feel they are spiritual spaces that should be open to us all - and then I'll donate for the upkeep.
HA-HA BYZANTEENS :menace:
Quote from: Caliga on July 10, 2020, 01:10:11 PM
HA-HA BYZANTEENS :menace:
That's Byzanto-fourtysomething to you thank you very much! :mad:
Oh sorry :blush:
Quote from: celedhring on July 10, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
Tbf most Catholic cathedrals remain active places of worship while being cultural attractions. I don't trust Erdogan's agenda in this (or pretty much anything), but on principle I'm not against it being restored to worship.
couple that to the fact that Erdogan is actively bullying christian clerics and preachers (against Turkey's own laws regarding freedom of religion) and it only shows that he's persuing his agenda of islamisation (and not only in Turkey itself thanks to Diyanet and such)
classic salami-tactics in any case.
Wasn't it converted to a museum as a sign of religious peace?
Declaring it once more to be an active mosque is precisely the type of culture triumphalism that would appeal to Turkey's MAGA-equivalent crowd.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 10, 2020, 11:09:09 AM
Yeah. I don't really see the issue with it - I know it's sensitive to Orthodox Christians and Catholics. I remember there were fears that when Benedict XVI visited he might say a prayer which would kick off a storm because it is an entirely secular building in Turkey's system.
Since the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized the Ukrainian Church as autocephalous, contrary to the wishes of the Patriarch of Moscow, I don't see Moscow opposing Erdogan's move. Besides, he has been doing much worse with his islamist agenda than this symbolic action for quite a while now, both in and outside of Turkey, as said by Crazy Ivan.
Quote from: celedhring on July 10, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
Tbf most Catholic cathedrals remain active places of worship while being cultural attractions. I don't trust Erdogan's agenda in this (or pretty much anything), but on principle I'm not against it being restored to worship.
As for comparisons between most catholic cathedrals and islamic places of worship, that's apple and oranges territory. Entry for non-muslims varies widely from muslim country to another. Turkey used to be pretty relaxed in this aspect though.
It is their building. What they want to do with their building is their business.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 10, 2020, 05:35:25 PM
It is their building. What they want to do with their building is their business.
Yes, and us freely considering them reckless zealous pricks for it is ours.
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
Quote from: Hamilcarlink=topic=16126.msg1252680#msg1252680 date=1594536744
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
We already talked about it. They will use a curtain.
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2020, 01:57:54 AM
Quote from: Hamilcarlink=topic=16126.msg1252680#msg1252680 date=1594536744
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
We already talked about it. They will use a curtain.
.
I am sure.
Quote from: Tamas on July 12, 2020, 02:15:37 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2020, 01:57:54 AM
Quote from: Hamilcarlink=topic=16126.msg1252680#msg1252680 date=1594536744
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
We already talked about it. They will use a curtain.
.
I am sure.
They survived the past few hundred years. If the current islamicist wave keeps up for a few decades to come they might decide smashy smashy is the way to go. But like reactionary movements elsewhere in the world in Turkey its near its peak.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 12, 2020, 01:52:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
Oh, I'm sorry I hadn't realised that you had seen it before the 16th century.
Quote from: garbon on July 12, 2020, 02:33:04 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 12, 2020, 01:52:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Well, I'm glad I saw it before they vandalize it.
:rolleyes:
If it's a mosque, the mosaics with human figures have to go. How is that not vandalism?
Oh, I'm sorry I hadn't realised that you had seen it before the 16th century.
You know you can see them right now. The UN US sponsoring a massive restoration project.
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2020, 02:21:11 AM
But like reactionary movements elsewhere in the world in Turkey its near its peak.
don't count on it
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 10, 2020, 11:09:09 AM
Yeah. I don't really see the issue with it
Because there is a huge and beautiful Ottoman Mosque right next to it, the Blue Mosque. There is zero reason for it to be a mosque except for nationalist Turk douchebag reasons. It is an ancient historical heritage site that should remain a museum.
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Christian churches that are both active churches as well as historical/heritage sites.
That being said, I would still be skeptical of this move simply because Erdogan is the one pushing it.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 16, 2020, 02:16:48 PM
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Christian churches that are both active churches as well as historical/heritage sites.
That being said, I would still be skeptical of this move simply because Erdogan is the one pushing it.
Sure. If there was a need for it to be a mosque and it has been a functioning mosque with an established community. But there is no need for it to be converted into a mosque. It is just being done to symbolize nationalist glory and victory over Turkish enemies and shit.
As I said there is one of the most amazing and beautiful mosques in the world right next door. There is no need for it.
So you should be skeptical.
What were the major problems when it was a mosque earlier?
That the Ottoman Empire was a Muslim state. Ataturk changed that but now Erdogan wants to go back. The building is just a symbol.
Quote from: Valmy on July 16, 2020, 02:20:23 PM
So you should be skeptical.
extra so in light of his actions in/towards Syria (actively supporting ethnic cleansing), Lybia (UN Embargo), Cyprus, Greece (border and airspace), the Eastern Med, about every European country where there's a Turkish migrant community, NATO.
Quote from: The Brain on July 16, 2020, 03:14:38 PM
What were the major problems when it was a mosque earlier?
Tons. A World War, genocide, occupation by foreign powers...I don't know how many were about the building though.
But yeah it is just symbolic and unnecessary.
Quote from: Valmy on July 16, 2020, 02:01:19 PM
Because there is a huge and beautiful Ottoman Mosque right next to it, the Blue Mosque. There is zero reason for it to be a mosque except for nationalist Turk douchebag reasons. It is an ancient historical heritage site that should remain a museum.
And 500 years of that heritage/history was as a mosque. As I say I like buildings living and being used - especially religious sites - not preserved in aspic.
Quote from: Valmy on July 16, 2020, 03:56:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 16, 2020, 03:14:38 PM
What were the major problems when it was a mosque earlier?
Tons. A World War, genocide, occupation by foreign powers...I don't know how many were about the building though.
But yeah it is just symbolic and unnecessary.
If it's a meaningful symbol to the Turks then I don't see a problem with letting them have it.
It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.
It's been a mosque for most of the last 500 years. You know, I'm sorry but I have to deal with Protestants squatting in the Bendictine Abbey of Westminster, Moroccans have to put up with Seville Cathedral. At a certain point you have to accept all of the history the building has as valid, not just your slice half a millenium ago.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.
*shrug* Then they shouldn't have lost it. If you can't let go after more than 500 years you have issues.
I dunno, if you can hold a grudge for 100 years 500 shouldn't be that big a stretch.
Hungarians aren't the gold standard IMHO.
Quote from: The Brain on July 16, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 16, 2020, 03:56:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 16, 2020, 03:14:38 PM
What were the major problems when it was a mosque earlier?
Tons. A World War, genocide, occupation by foreign powers...I don't know how many were about the building though.
But yeah it is just symbolic and unnecessary.
If it's a meaningful symbol to the Turks then I don't see a problem with letting them have it.
I wasn't planning on taking it from them. I was also unaware it previously did not belong to them.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 16, 2020, 04:39:22 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.
It's been a mosque for most of the last 500 years. You know, I'm sorry but I have to deal with Protestants squatting in the Bendictine Abbey of Westminster, Moroccans have to put up with Seville Cathedral.
Ok and if Spain decided to turn the Seville Cathedral into a museum to celebrate our shared human heritage it would be a pretty regressive and shitty thing to do to switch it back to a cathedral. Especially as this switch has nothing to do with the need for a mosque or Islam. This is about nationalist reactionary far right shittiness and pettiness. And there is a context of tons of other similar things they are currently doing, most of them much more sinister and serious and impact actual living people rather than ancient stones.
So no I am not going to endorse this move by Erdogan and his corrupt regime, even if you could somehow turn it back into a Mosque with good intentions somehow this is not what is going on here. For what that is worth :lol:
QuoteAt a certain point you have to accept all of the history the building has as valid, not just your slice half a millenium ago.
Hey I have a great way to do that: make it a museum.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 16, 2020, 03:47:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 16, 2020, 02:20:23 PM
So you should be skeptical.
extra so in light of his actions in/towards Syria (actively supporting ethnic cleansing), Lybia (UN Embargo), Cyprus, Greece (border and airspace), the Eastern Med, about every European country where there's a Turkish migrant community, NATO.
I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there.
But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 16, 2020, 04:39:22 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.
It's been a mosque for most of the last 500 years. You know, I'm sorry but I have to deal with Protestants squatting in the Bendictine Abbey of Westminster, Moroccans have to put up with Seville Cathedral. At a certain point you have to accept all of the history the building has as valid, not just your slice half a millenium ago.
Back when there was a mosque, itself on the site of several temples and churches, Morocco did not exist. :P
So I guess Moroccans put up with it without too much trouble.
PS: the squatting argument reminds me of the Catholic Church having to deal with Members of the Society of Saint Pius X squatting the Saint-Nicolas du Chardonnet. :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 16, 2020, 07:14:06 PM
I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there.
But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.
I mean - yeah. Libya is the best argument I think there is for how lacking the EU is as a geopolitical actor despite the desire of this Commission. It's a near neghbour that has a direct impact on Europe. You've got a government that I think is still technically recognised by the EU and backed by the Italians as well as the Turks and Qataris and an alternative government backed by Saudi, Egypt, Russia, Israel and France - they're both backed by different European countries and fighting. It's not a great look.
Also just as an aside I think it's pretty impressive that Turkey has managed to project itself into the Libyan conflict and succeed against the side backed by Russia, Israel, Egypt etc which I'd expect to easily get the better of that situation.
And yes, I am doing internal penance for misplacing "they're" with "their". :sleep:
Maybe minor displays of independence like that keep the Italians and French from brexiting.
So apparently Erdogan's public adress to mark the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque was chock full of Ottoman irredentism and nostalgia. Can't find an article about it in English, so maybe this tweet summary might do meanwhile:
QuoteTurkey's President Erdogan lays out his irredentist vision after converting Hagia Sophia, declares the sleeping giant woke up, promises more to come, recalls Crusader wars, laments loss of Ottoman lands, reminds how Ottomans once ruled the biggest power from India to Austria.
It seems that somebody has the Hungarians beat in the historical butthurt rankings. :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 16, 2020, 07:14:06 PM
I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there.
But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.
I mean - yeah. Libya is the best argument I think there is for how lacking the EU is as a geopolitical actor despite the desire of this Commission. It's a near neghbour that has a direct impact on Europe. You've got a government that I think is still technically recognised by the EU and backed by the Italians as well as the Turks and Qataris and an alternative government backed by Saudi, Egypt, Russia, Israel and France - they're both backed by different European countries and fighting. It's not a great look.
Also just as an aside I think it's pretty impressive that Turkey has managed to project itself into the Libyan conflict and succeed against the side backed by Russia, Israel, Egypt etc which I'd expect to easily get the better of that situation.
They were doing quite well holding positions all around the capital, when about a month ago, either some small reversals or a deal between someone(Turks?) and the Russians saw three plane loads of Wagner mercenaries suddenly leave the front lines, where they'd been doing much of the operational command and heavy lifting.
Since then Haftar's been in near head-long retreat, don't know the reason for the Russians pulling their forces out.
Now the Egyptians look set to directly intervene if it gets worse and much of Eastern Libya goes to the UN-backed govt.
Quote from: The Larch on July 17, 2020, 05:55:27 PM
So apparently Erdogan's public adress to mark the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque was chock full of Ottoman irredentism and nostalgia. Can't find an article about it in English, so maybe this tweet summary might do meanwhile:
QuoteTurkey's President Erdogan lays out his irredentist vision after converting Hagia Sophia, declares the sleeping giant woke up, promises more to come, recalls Crusader wars, laments loss of Ottoman lands, reminds how Ottomans once ruled the biggest power from India to Austria.
It seems that somebody has the Hungarians beat in the historical butthurt rankings. :P
Mohàcs avenged!!! :lol:
PS : Erdogan being nice to Mughals but not Persians, obviously. :P
Quote from: mongers on July 17, 2020, 07:45:47 PM
They were doing quite well holding positions all around the capital, when about a month ago, either some small reversals or a deal between someone(Turks?) and the Russians saw three plane loads of Wagner mercenaries suddenly leave the front lines, where they'd been doing much of the operational command and heavy lifting.
Since then Haftar's been in near head-long retreat, don't know the reason for the Russians pulling their forces out.
Now the Egyptians look set to directly intervene if it gets worse and much of Eastern Libya goes to the UN-backed govt.
Yeah I mean it's extraordinary to see Haftar's retreat given his sponsors.
And you're right that now Egypt is threatening to intervene directly. I think there are pretty serious questions to be asked of France in backing Haftar (along with Russia, Egypt etc). I think it weakens European criticism of foreign intervention (such as by Turkey in support of the recognised government) in Libya which has been a big part of especially German and Italian politicy, but also it has arguably opened the door to this.
The mes in Libya is such that any actor can be criticized for just about anything they have done, since it has all turned to shit. Frakly, I think that international recognition should have stayed with the Libya House of Representatives. Certainly the UN-imposed "Government of national Accord" has little government, nothing national, and no accord.
When it's Russia versus Turkey, you just have to root for the meteor strike.
I don't know much about the state of the current conflict there, but I get the impression the Turks are at least in part interested in Libya's oil resources.
Apparently both Turkey and Egypt are intervening in support of two different 'factions' in the ongoing saga to control oil and gas production around the Med - one roughly being Egypt, Cyprus, Israel and Greece, the other Turkey.
That's why you have the odd sight of a Libyan rebel group appealing to Israel for military support.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/in-interview-with-israeli-paper-top-libyan-rebel-calls-for-israels-support/amp/
Footage from Thessaloniki, but in all Greece where church bells toll the funeral sound and government flags were put to half-mast over this:
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1286663437851021312?s=20
I have to be honest I find the visceral Orthodox reaction really interesting just because, you know, Constantinople fell 550 years ago the building's been a mosque for almost all of that period. But it's really fascinating and important and relevant how deeply felt this is in the Orthodox world.
How is it fascinating? Well it was the center of the Orthodox world. The most holy spot outside of Jerusalem, the seat of the Patriarch in the Holy City of Constantinople.
But obviously this is a nationalist fuck you to the Orthodox world so of course it is being taken that way. So is it surprising or fascinating that it is being taken that way in this part of the world? This is practically the regional sport.
And I guess I should remind you it is not a church that is being converted into a mosque, it is a museum. But before it was kind of like "hey this building is important to both of us so let's appreciate it that way" to "HAHA! FUCK YOU YOU INFERIOR CONQUERED FUCKS" so yeah.
As I said it is not really about Islam or religion. It is a supremacist nationalist statement that is well understood by all of Turkey's Orthodox neighbors.
Yep. This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.
As Valmy has pointed out, there's no shortage of mosques in Istanbul (which isn't a highly religious city anyway), but ths "fuck you, Christians!" plays well in rural Dumfuckistan, Turkey, and that's the Sultan's base.
Agreeed.
What worries me more about Turkey is their aggressive foreign policy:
Deutsche Welle: Europe warns Turkey against natural gas mission near Greece (https://www.dw.com/en/europe-warns-turkey-against-natural-gas-mission-near-greece/a-54302019)
QuoteFrench President Emmanuel Macron has called for sanctions against Turkey for encroaching on EU member states' territorial waters. But Ankara has rejected such claims, saying Turkey is well within its right.
European officials on Thursday warned Turkey against pursuing a survey mission looking for gas reserves near Greek islands in the eastern Mediterranean.
Greece and Cyprus have accused Turkey of undermining their sovereignty by continuing to pursue energy resources within their territorial waters.
"The government is underlining to all parties that Greece will not accept a violation of its sovereignty and will do whatever is necessary to defend its sovereign rights," said Greek government spokesman Stelios Petsas.
French President Emmanuel Macron has called for sanctions against Turkey, saying it is "not acceptable for the maritime space of a European Union member state to be violated or threatened."
Last year, the EU adopted a sanctions regime targeting Turkey over its unauthorized gas drilling in Cypriot waters.
The instrument provides the EU with a way "to sanction individuals or entities responsible for, or involved in, unauthorized drilling activities of hydrocarbons in the eastern Mediterranean," according to a statement by EU foreign ministers in November.
However, Turkey has rejected claims that its energy-related activities in the region are transgressing Greek or Cypriot sovereignty. Instead, the Turkish government has claimed that it is well within its right — or those of Turkish Cypriots — to explore areas claimed by Cyprus and Greece.
"We want all natural resources in the eastern Mediterranean to be shared fairly," said Turkish presidency spokesman Ibrahim Kalin. "We will never accept threats or sanctions. We do not accept Greece's maximalist position."
Turkish survey ship Oruc Reis's mission remains "valid and effective," according to the port in which it is currently anchored off of. Its mission is likely to run through to August 2.
US officials have chided Turkey for pursuing the mission despite several warnings.
"I want to echo the clear message from Washington and elsewhere in Europe, urging Turkish authorities to halt operations that raise tensions in the region, such as plans to survey for natural resources in areas where Greece and Cyprus assert jurisdiction in the eastern Mediterranean," said US Ambassador to Greece Geoffrey Pyatt.
Voice of America: Turkey Faces Pressure as Libyan Conflict Widens (https://www.voanews.com/europe/turkey-faces-pressure-libyan-conflict-widens)
QuoteISTANBUL - The Egyptian parliament's decision Monday to authorize the possible deployment of Egyptian troops in Libya is highlighting concerns in the region about a possible escalation of the Libyan conflict. International pressure is, meanwhile, growing on Turkey over its involvement as Ankara doubled down on its support of Libya's Government of National Accord, fueling fears of a wider a regional war.
[...]
Reuters: Turkey shifts fight against Kurdish militants deeper into Iraq (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-iraq/turkey-shifts-fight-against-kurdish-militants-deeper-into-iraq-idUSKCN24N26F)
QuoteANKARA/BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Turkey is taking its decades-old conflict with Kurdish militants deep into northern Iraq, establishing military bases and deploying armed military drones against the fighters in their mountain strongholds.
[...]
Reuters: Erdogan says Turkey will remain in Syria 'until Syrian people are free' (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey/erdogan-says-turkey-will-remain-in-syria-until-syrian-people-are-free-idUSKCN24M1UO)
QuoteANKARA (Reuters) - President Tayyip Erdogan said on Tuesday that Turkish forces, which have carried out several incursions into northern Syria since 2016, would remain in the country until Syrians can live in freedom and safety.
"Nowadays they are holding an election, a so-called election," Erdogan said of a parliamentary election on Sunday in Syria's government-controlled regions, after nearly a decade of civil war. "Until the Syrian people are free, peaceful and safe, we will remain in this country," he said in a speech in Ankara.
These are just the headlines from the last few days. They've also voiced support of Azerbaijan in their recently re-ignited hostilities with Armenia, but haven't intervened yet.
Quote from: Syt on July 24, 2020, 11:35:18 AM
What worries me more about Turkey is their aggressive foreign policy:
Totally agreed. I do wonder to an extent how much of this is a consequence of American withdrawal/disengagement in the region especially with Syria and Libya. Is this maybe what the region looks like if the US disengages more and more? And it makes sense after a hegemon that you get regional power struggles. So does this maybe go into reverse a little bit if Trump loses and there's an engaged White House who cares about something (anything) other than ratings? Or does this actually sort of show what might happen in other regions (especially if Trump won again) - maybe Europe, maybe Korea?
Because this is not a case of Turkey alone or Turkey uniquely being aggressive. In Syria you've got Turkey (with Qatar), Iran, Russia, Saudi (with backing open or tacit of the Gulf States, Israel and Egypt). In Libya you've got most of the same players: Turkey (with Qatar), Russia, Saudi (with the Gulf States, Israel and Egypt) plus France, Italy and Greece.
But again in things I find kind of fascinating - I thought Josep Borrell's comments on his meeting about Turkey with MEPs were fascinating about this history's echoes and almost the Orban view of Europe as Christendom. Obviously he's Spanish so these references may just make sense/resonate but it's just still really interesting to see this sort of reference even while sayng obviously it's a different moment:
QuoteI almost seemed to see the reappearance of Pope Pius V calling on the Holy Alliance against Turkey and mobilizing the fleets of Christendom to face the Ottoman invasion.
I don't have the call of Chamberlain or Daladier, but also not Don Juan of Austria. If you're looking for a Don Juan of Austria don't look at me, becuause that belongs to another epoch of history. [...]
Here it is not about looking for a Holy Alliance against a new Ottoman invasion, as many of you seemed to propose, but in more constructive terms and in the face of a complex reality ... so that we look for a process that encompasses a negotiation on all the issues between the EU and all the member states and Turkey.
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2020, 11:19:06 AM
Yep. This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.
given that Erdogan's political career has taken place entirely within the religious (fundamentalist) part of Turkish politics rather than within the nationalist-kemalist part it seems rather silly to say it's not about religion (at all). It is about religion, but it is also about other things.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2020, 11:19:06 AM
Yep. This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.
given that Erdogan's political career has taken place entirely within the religious (fundamentalist) part of Turkish politics rather than within the nationalist-kemalist part it seems rather silly to say it's not about religion (at all). It is about religion, but it is also about other things.
There is no evidence whatever that Erdogan is genuinely religious, or that the decisions he claims to make on religious grounds (like this one) are based at all on religion. Saying "it is about religion, but it is also about other things" is like saying "it is about the color blue, but it is also about other things." It's all about the other things.
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Agreed, but that's not about religion, its about Ottoman Empire Fanboiism. The particular religious trappings are meaningless. If it was the worship of owlshit that would get Erdagon's base motivated, he'd convert the Hagia Sophia into a big owl box.
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
I saw this pic posted and it cracked me up :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdsVSOxWsAQRpsR?format=jpg&name=large)
They were apparently distributed after the first prayer at Hagia Sofia.
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 25, 2020, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Yes, they're the men Trump wishes he was.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 25, 2020, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 25, 2020, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 25, 2020, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.
The Tsars also played that game. They like Muslims more than non-Orthodox Christians.
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 06:31:51 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 25, 2020, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Yes, they're the men Trump wishes he was.
Thank God he is an incompetent grifter. I guess we need to be looking around for a potential Putin-esque successor.
Quote from: Valmy on July 25, 2020, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 25, 2020, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 25, 2020, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 25, 2020, 12:02:33 AM
Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.
Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.
Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.
The Tsars also played that game. They like Muslims more than non-Orthodox Christians.
Some of this "tolerance" might be pragmatism, missing from Erdogan's national-islamism/islamo-nationalism (take your pick), which was my point.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 24, 2020, 10:17:38 AM
Footage from Thessaloniki, but in all Greece where church bells toll the funeral sound and government flags were put to half-mast over this:
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1286663437851021312?s=20
I have to be honest I find the visceral Orthodox reaction really interesting just because, you know, Constantinople fell 550 years ago the building's been a mosque for almost all of that period. But it's really fascinating and important and relevant how deeply felt this is in the Orthodox Greek world.
FYP.
So this seems relevant:
QuoteAyodhya: Modi hails 'dawn of new era' as work on controversial temple begins
Foundation stone laid for temple to Lord Ram at site where mosque was razed 28 years ago
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/8064b1f7bae138fce578e78e262cf7f0a3bea20f/0_448_6720_4032/master/6720.jpg?width=605&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=e6dc299147c6887846375f175b616f14)
Narendra Modi takes part in the groundbreaking ceremony in Ayodhya. Photograph: Rajesh Kumar Singh/AP
Amrit Dhillon in New Delhi
Published on Wed 5 Aug 2020 11.53 BST
The Indian town of Ayodhya welcomed Narendra Modi for a ceremony marking the start of construction of a temple on the site where a mosque was razed to the ground by a Hindu mob 28 years ago.
Modi's Bharatiya Janata party has campaigned for years for the temple to be built at the spot considered to be the birthplace of the Hindu deity Lord Ram. The issue has divided Indians, alienated Muslims, helped propel the BJP to power and thrown its rivals into disarray.
Modi last visited Ayodhya in 1991. "When he came, he said he would only return to the city when work had begun on the temple, not before," said Kameshwar Chaupal, a priest and member of the trust responsible for building the temple.
On Wednesday, Modi offered garlands and prayers to the deity to the sound of conch shells blown by priests in saffron robes.At the temple site a 40kg silver foundation stone was placed in the ground.
Calling it the "dawn of a new era", Modi said: "India is emotional as decades of wait has ended. For years, our Ram Lalla [the infant Lord Ram] lived beneath a tent; now he will reside in a grand temple."
The temple construction is a political and religious milestone for Modi and the BJP. Following a sustained campaign, the party received the go-ahead for the temple last November from the supreme court, which said land should be found elsewhere for a new mosque.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/0e808b29989beebe4c35533cd379d92c2e1cf222/0_0_6016_3610/master/6016.jpg?width=605&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=bca6756323f02a91fb10b8e8bc76ad0a)
People celebrate around a 7ft statue of Lord Ram in Pune. Photograph: Sanket Wankhade/AFP/Getty Images
The BJP has succeeded in turning the controversial issue of whether the temple should be built into a touchstone of Hindu identity, a marker of the Hindu nationalism that forms part of its core ideology known as Hindutva.
"It is an undoubted victory for Modi. He fancies himself to be a greater icon of Hindutva than the actual temple," said Parsa Venkateshwar Rao Jr, a political analyst.
Prominent Muslims have said the community was resigned to the decision but fear it could embolden Hindu nationalists to target two other mosques in the state of Uttar Pradesh.
"The Modi government should assure Muslims that Hindu outfits will not ask for the construction of temples in Varanasi and Mathura after demolishing existing mosques there," said Iqbal Ansari, the main Muslim litigant in the supreme court case, who now supports building the temple in Ayodhya.
Zafaryab Jilani, the general secretary of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, a lawyer who was also involved in the legal dispute, said that while Muslims had to accept the law of the land, it was wrong of Modi to attend the ground-breaking ceremony.
"It is against the letter and spirit of India's secular constitution for the prime minister in his official capacity to attend such a religious event. It shows a woeful and total disregard for the principles of the constitution," said Jilani.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/dbed84c07b3118e41a2c8f586ebbfc68734234b3/0_174_5642_3385/master/5642.jpg?width=605&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=20d3434a64b63eb4d5c9a5eea8bbea80)
People watch the ceremony on a big screen in Delhi. Photograph: Rajat Gupta/EPA
For Modi's political opponents, the start of the temple construction has presented them with a quandary. They dare not challenge the celebrations and festivities for fear of alienating many of their fellow Hindus and appearing out of step with majority sentiment. Yet they remain nervous at the BJP's success in conflating religious conviction with political ambition.
"When politicians hail the building of the Ram temple, they choose to ignore that it is being built on the debris of mutual accommodation and represents an unprecedented homogenisation of Hinduness," wrote Suhas Palshikar, a political scientist, in the Indian Express.
"In this sense, the past one year and more has been the period of 'no contest' in India's politics. If the BJP is guilty of dismantling the republic, all other parties are silent approvers."
The temple will have five domes, clusters of columns, and will reach a height of 50 metres. It is expected to be finished before the 2024 general election.
Some images and video of the demolition of the Babri Masjid:
https://theprint.in/in-pictures/unseen-photos-of-how-babri-masjid-demolition-was-planned-and-executed-in-1992/474297/
Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2020, 10:45:16 AM
Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.
Someone hasn't been to Khajuraho...
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2020, 10:45:16 AM
Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.
Strong disagree :mellow:
There are some key differences. This is not a mosque of similar importance to the Hagia Sophia, and it was destroyed decades ago instead of currently serving as a museum...however the attitude and intent is pretty much the same.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2020, 10:45:16 AM
Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.
Heh. That is an interesting take.
I can certainly see for somebody of more minimalist tastes it can appear so.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
There are some key differences. This is not a mosque of similar importance to the Hagia Sophia, and it was destroyed decades ago instead of currently serving as a museum...however the attitude and intent is pretty much the same.
I mean I think you could argue that Hagia Sofia and this are of similar importance to Orthodox and Hindus? And yes the 500 year old mosque was destroyed 30 years ago but that was in violence following a political rally which was held as part of a campaign to build a temple on the site of the mosque. According to some intelligence figures this had been something RSS and Shiv Sena had been planning for months. BJP leaders were there watching while the mosque was being destroyed. The leaders of the BJP were explicitly identified as being responsible in a later report by a judge. And one of them (later deputy PM) was arrested for his part in leading the campaign:
(https://d2c7ipcroan06u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/16-e1596535268726.jpeg)
That's Modi on the right.
I mean that destructive element strikes me as the really key difference. It seems closer to, say, the Israeli groups who want to rebuild the temple.
I think the fact that it was a secular museum celebrating both parts of the building's past, a place of peace now defiled by Erdogan's extreme rightwing nationalist hate, is also a key difference.
That pile of rubble was already a symbol of extreme rightwing nationalist hate for 30 years.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2020, 01:33:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2020, 10:45:16 AM
Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.
Heh. That is an interesting take.
I can certainly see for somebody of more minimalist tastes it can appear so.
Temple architecture always looks so heavy. I know they are keen on carving out a temple from living rock but it looks like some took a really big orange-brown shit.
Historically, tearing down someone's temple or church to build your own, or building one on a site important to someone else, or simply re-purposing someone else's building for your own were all significant ways one group established dominance over another; however, it often had a more unforeseen or unexpected result - that one group ended up taking on the characteristics of the other.
It is understandable that a group once subjected to such a gesture of dominance regains control, it would want to reverse things - to tear down the intrusive structure and rebuild what was there before. Unfortunately, this is usually a bad idea - not only because it inflames tensions, but also because the building being torn down is often historic in its own right.
I prefer the Israeli method - they have accepted the that the Dome if the Rock is a masterpiece, and have left it under the control of the Muslim authorities, despite the fact that it is built directly over the site of the Temple of Jerusalem.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2020, 01:57:42 PM
I think the fact that it was a secular museum celebrating both parts of the building's past, a place of peace now defiled by Erdogan's extreme rightwing nationalist hate, is also a key difference.
That pile of rubble was already a symbol of extreme rightwing nationalist hate for 30 years.
Secular building squatting in a holy space :x
And also I mean it's not going to be physically very different as a mosque than it is as a museum (it would be if Ataturk's initial plans were followed through on - but even that was arguably partly inspired by extreme rightwing nationalist hate).
Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.
The Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.
And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 02:43:56 PM
Secular building squatting in a holy space :x
"Holy space" :lol:
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2020, 02:58:23 PM
Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.
I mean as I say I think the Modi thing is far worse because they demolished a mosque to do it (and there are a few other mosques on Hindu holy sites) - especially given Modi's role in anti-Muslim pogroms in Gujarat. I think there are similarities between him and Erdogan I do think it's worth drawing a line between the symbolic violence that Erdogan is doing and the actual violence that Modi's done on this.
As Malthus says the history of these sites and spaces is complex because they are always an expression of domination of one form or another. Whether it's the Mughals building a mosque over Hindu holy sites (or destroying temples to build them) or the Zocalo in Mexico City it's the same thing. My own view is we generally have to accept what is there rather than reverse the domination in another form of domination, with the caveat that I like religious buildings being used to pray and as long as there's no real change to the structure or access to the building then I have no issue with it.
And from my memory of Hagia Sophie there were no exhibits or plaques like a typical museum (I think Turkey is missing out on this because the same goes for Topkapi Palace etc).
QuoteThe Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.
And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.
So maybe this is part of the reason for my reaction, I don't identify at all with the Hagia Sophia or the Byzantines. Maybe if it was a Gothic cathedral - Salisbury or Notre Dame - I'd have more of a heart-pulling response but it doesn't feel any more connected to me than St Sophia in Kyiv. A beautiful incredible building but not mine. Also of course Englishness never particularly cared about the Turks - we were too far away, so the Holy Alliance reference made by Borrell would be met by incomprehension here except amoung EU4 fans :P
Our identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe. So if Borrell talked about another Spanish Armada we'd all know about it. And, of course, the churches that were seized, whitewashed and vandalised by iconoclasts in that expression of dominance are still in place and part of our national church. But that's what's there.
If the Christians built a church 500 years ago, even if there'd been a while when it was deconsecrated I'd have no issue with it being reverted to being a church. I think that might be the case with Mexico City Cathedral (and a lot of Mexican cathedrals): built on top of the Templo Mayor, shut down for 5-10 years during the revolution/Cristero war then back to being a church since the 30s or 40s?
Quote"Holy space" :lol:
A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2020, 02:58:23 PM
Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.
The Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.
And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.
Does Erdogan plan to tear down Hagia Sophia? What exactly is it that he is doing that threatens the building?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PM
So maybe this is part of the reason for my reaction, I don't identify at all with the Hagia Sophia or the Byzantines.
I don't either. I am also not gay but when a gay man is beaten severely I don't issue praise, or minimize it, that at least he wasn't murdered.
Similarly if you commit a hateful provocative act like Erdogan I am not going to praise you for at least not ripping it down. And I am certainly no more friend of Modi than I am of Erdogan. I don't really see the point of your whataboutism. Especially the nonsense about pointing out that there are also bad Israelis who want to do something to the Dome of the Rock? I mean so fucking what? What does that have to do with Erdogan?
Is what Erdogan did the worst thing ever? No. Is it even the worse thing done this year? No, what China is doing to the Uighurs is far worse. It may not even be in the top 10 of horrible things done this year.
Is what Erdogan did the worse thing he could have done? No.
But that hardly excuses anything.
I mean I don't have an issue with it so I don't think it's hateful. It's provocative, it's posturing. Is it harmful? No. And my own preference as I say is that buildings are used and not museums. Places of worship should be used for worship and museums should be used, as God intended, to display a country's assorted loot.
And I'm not trying to do whataboutery. I posted the Modi story because I read it this morning and thought that's similar - but my reaction is different, I think, because they tore down a 500 year old building. I agree with Malthus that my preferred solution is the Israeli approach (the comment about Israeli extremists was because I saw this weekend videos of a large group of them praying in the Muslim section of Temple Mount, which again made me think of this story). But again I just saw all these stories and to me they seem connected or that they echo - it's not what-abouting (not least because I don't think there's anything awful to what about).
God? :huh:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Oh absolutely. It was a real threat - as the Armada indicates - but it was transformed into an imagined threat too. I think that vision of Spain probably still holds a place in the popular imagination/standard Whig-ish history of England.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PM
A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.
Old fat spider spinning in a tree!
Old fat spider can't see me!
Attercop! Attercop!
Won't you stop,
Stop your spinning and look for me!
Old Tomnoddy, all big body,
Old Tomnoddy can't spy me!
Attercop! Attercop!
Down you drop!
You'll never catch me up your tree!
Lazy Lob and crazy Cob
are weaving webs to wind me.
I am far more sweet than other meat,
but still they cannot find me!
Here am I, naughty little fly;
you are fat and lazy.
You cannot trap me, though you try,
in your cobwebs crazy.
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
That's only because nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 05:33:47 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Oh absolutely. It was a real threat - as the Armada indicates - but it was transformed into an imagined threat too. I think that vision of Spain probably still holds a place in the popular imagination/standard Whig-ish history of England.
The Black Legend still has a few tiny ripples. I was taught the Whiggish version of England's history at school (have updated since of course); so on my first visit to Spain, more than 40 years ago, I was delighted with how friendly and delightful the people were. Of course I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition (who does?), but my expectations were definitely slightly lowered and influenced by the history............which is ridiculous in retrospect.
We all remember seeing the Spanish Armoury in the Tower. Scary stuff! To think that the Armada came close to unleashing such horrible instruments of torture on upstanding Englishmen.
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fé.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Cultural appropriation! :ultra: :D
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2020, 05:52:03 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fé.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Cultural appropriation! :ultra: :D
Blame the Anglos, who after several centuries still don't know how things are properly written. :P Why it's the Portuguese wording the one used internationally I just don't know.
Quote from: The Larch on August 06, 2020, 05:57:47 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2020, 05:52:03 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fé.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Cultural appropriation! :ultra: :D
Blame the Anglos, who after several centuries still don't know how things are properly written. :P Why it's the Portuguese wording the one used internationally I just don't know.
I'm not going to use accents on Languish without a very good reason :P
No idea why we have the Portuguese wording though. I just had a quick look in a dictionary and apparently the first use in English is 1688 and it is "auto da fe", so Portuguese from the start :hmm:
Edit: And, given the year, almost certainly something about the terrifying threat of a Catholic king etc etc.
Probably took spelling tips off Catherine of Braganza :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 06, 2020, 06:04:20 AM
Probably took spelling tips off Catherine of Bragança :P
Getting ahead of Duque. :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2020, 06:02:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 06, 2020, 05:57:47 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2020, 05:52:03 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 05, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 05, 2020, 03:38:52 PMOur identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fé.
Which is something that was, in a significative way, a made up strawman.
Cultural appropriation! :ultra: :D
Blame the Anglos, who after several centuries still don't know how things are properly written. :P Why it's the Portuguese wording the one used internationally I just don't know.
I'm not going to use accents on Languish without a very good reason :P
No idea why we have the Portuguese wording though. I just had a quick look in a dictionary and apparently the first use in English is 1688 and it is "auto da fe", so Portuguese from the start :hmm:
Edit: And, given the year, almost certainly something about the terrifying threat of a Catholic king etc etc.
French TLFI notes both spellings, citing the now old-fashioned hyphenated orthography as well.
QuotePRONONC. ET ORTH. : [] ou [-]. Également [-] (PASSY 1914) et [oto-] (DUB.) a) Attesté sous la graph. auto-da-fé ds Ac. 1798, 1835, BESCH. 1845, Lar. 19e, LITTRÉ (cf. aussi ex. 1, 2, 4). Attesté sous la graph. autodafé ds Ac. 1878, 1932, GUÉRIN 1892, Nouv. Lar. ill., DG, Pt Lar. 1906, ROB., Lar. encyclop., QUILLET 1965, DUB. et Lar. Lang. fr. (cf. aussi ex. 3, 5). b) L'expr. auto-da-fé ,,tirée d'une langue étrangère ne prend point de s au pluriel`` (LAV. Diffic. 1846). (Cf. aussi ex. 2; cf. toutefois l'ex. 1). Sous la forme francisée, autodafé prend normalement s au plur. (cf. ex. 3).
ÉTYMOL. ET HIST. 1714 auto-da-fé « lecture et exécution publique de la sentence par laquelle l'Inquisition condamnait les hérétiques au supplice du feu » (LESAGE, Gil Blas, XII, 1 ds ROB. : Seigneur cavalier, vous venez apparemment dans cette ville pour voir l'auguste cérémonie de l'auto-da-fé [...] Vous verrez, reprit-il, une des plus belles processions qui aient jamais été faites : il y a, dit-on, plus de cent prisonniers parmi lesquels on en compte plus de dix qui doivent être brûlés); 1759 autodafé « id. » (VOLTAIRE, Candide, VI, ibid).
Empr. à l'esp. auto de fe « id. » (BRUNOT, t. 6, 2, II, 1240; RUPP., p. 84; en raison du texte d'où est tirée la 1re attest., influencé par plusieurs romans esp.) croisé avec le port. auto da fe « id. », tous deux signifiant proprement « acte de foi » (acte* et foi*).
Quote from: The Larch on August 06, 2020, 06:06:30 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 06, 2020, 06:04:20 AM
Probably took spelling tips off Catherine of Bragança :P
Getting ahead of Duque. :P
Obrigado!
D. Catarina is more famous for popularising tea in Albion though. :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2020, 08:54:37 AM
D. Catarina is more famous for popularising tea in Albion though. :P
Her Wikipedia has that customary entry in figures (especially foreigners!) in 17-8th century English history - "Popish plot" :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2020, 08:59:42 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2020, 08:54:37 AM
D. Catarina is more famous for popularising tea in Albion though. :P
Her Wikipedia has that customary entry in figures (especially foreigners!) in 17-8th century English history - "Popish plot" :lol:
Looking at Wiki I just found out that bagpipes aren't from Scotland? They started using them there in the 1500's? WTF. Iberia alone had a version since like the 900's. This is somehow Bravehearts fault
The Chora Church has been turned into a mosque today :(
Quote from: Maladict on August 21, 2020, 09:40:31 AM
The Chora Church has been turned into a mosque today :(
Huh. Was that ever a mosque?
Until 1945. I've more of an issue with this one - it's more of a museum-ish building and less palimpsestical than Hagia Sophia.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 21, 2020, 09:50:18 AM
Until 1945. I've more of an issue with this one - it's more of a museum-ish building and less palimpsestical than Hagia Sophia.
The interior spaces are very small and completely covered in mosaics and frescoes. I don't see any practical way of temporarily covering them like you can in Hagia Sophia.
Quote from: Maladict on August 21, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
The interior spaces are very small and completely covered in mosaics and frescoes. I don't see any practical way of temporarily covering them like you can in Hagia Sophia.
Yeah I agree and from my memory there's less of a presence in the building of its time as a mosque, which was still there with Hagia Sophia.