Hagia Sophia to be turned back into a mosque

[Sheilbh]

What worries me more about Turkey is their aggressive foreign policy:

Totally agreed. I do wonder to an extent how much of this is a consequence of American withdrawal/disengagement in the region especially with Syria and Libya. Is this maybe what the region looks like if the US disengages more and more? And it makes sense after a hegemon that you get regional power struggles. So does this maybe go into reverse a little bit if Trump loses and there's an engaged White House who cares about something (anything) other than ratings? Or does this actually sort of show what might happen in other regions (especially if Trump won again) - maybe Europe, maybe Korea?

Because this is not a case of Turkey alone or Turkey uniquely being aggressive. In Syria you've got Turkey (with Qatar), Iran, Russia, Saudi (with backing open or tacit of the Gulf States, Israel and Egypt). In Libya you've got most of the same players: Turkey (with Qatar), Russia, Saudi (with the Gulf States, Israel and Egypt) plus France, Italy and Greece.

But again in things I find kind of fascinating - I thought Josep Borrell's comments on his meeting about Turkey with MEPs were fascinating about this history's echoes and almost the Orban view of Europe as Christendom. Obviously he's Spanish so these references may just make sense/resonate but it's just still really interesting to see this sort of reference even while sayng obviously it's a different moment:

I almost seemed to see the reappearance of Pope Pius V calling on the Holy Alliance against Turkey and mobilizing the fleets of Christendom to face the Ottoman invasion.

I don't have the call of Chamberlain or Daladier, but also not Don Juan of Austria. If you're looking for a Don Juan of Austria don't look at me, becuause that belongs to another epoch of history. [...]

Here it is not about looking for a Holy Alliance against a new Ottoman invasion, as many of you seemed to propose, but in more constructive terms and in the face of a complex reality ... so that we look for a process that encompasses a negotiation on all the issues between the EU and all the member states and Turkey.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Yep.  This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.

given that Erdogan's political career has taken place entirely within the religious (fundamentalist) part of Turkish politics rather than within the nationalist-kemalist part it seems rather silly to say it's not about religion (at all). It is about religion, but it is also about other things.

[grumbler]

Yep.  This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.

given that Erdogan's political career has taken place entirely within the religious (fundamentalist) part of Turkish politics rather than within the nationalist-kemalist part it seems rather silly to say it's not about religion (at all). It is about religion, but it is also about other things.

There is no evidence whatever that Erdogan is genuinely religious, or that the decisions he claims to make on religious grounds (like this one) are based at all on religion.  Saying "it is about religion, but it is also about other things" is like saying "it is about the color blue, but it is also about other things."  It's all about the other things.

[Syt]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

[grumbler]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Agreed, but that's not about religion, its about Ottoman Empire Fanboiism.  The particular religious trappings are meaningless.  If it was the worship of owlshit that would get Erdagon's base motivated, he'd convert the Hagia Sophia into a big owl box.

[celedhring]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

I saw this pic posted and it cracked me up 



They were apparently distributed after the first prayer at Hagia Sofia.

[Sheilbh]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

[Syt]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

Yes, they're the men Trump wishes he was.

[Duque de Bragança]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.

[Valmy]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.

The Tsars also played that game. They like Muslims more than non-Orthodox Christians.

[Valmy]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

Yes, they're the men Trump wishes he was.

Thank God he is an incompetent grifter. I guess we need to be looking around for a potential Putin-esque successor.

[Duque de Bragança]

Erdogan has shown over the years that he's an Ottoman Empire fanboy and seeks to restoreformerglories. Religious conservatism (which I feel is more akin to conservative evangelicals in the US than ISIS) is part of that brand, regardless of whether he believes it himself or just goes through the motions.

Yeah. I mean I think the politician Erdogan is most similar to is Putin. So harking back to the glory of their national past, plus religious conservatism, plus corruption and a hell of a log of opportunism.

Except even Putin's new cesaropapism is more diversity-friendly than Erdogan's islamo-nationalism. Second only to Orthodoxy, Islam has quite a cozy status in Russia, with Chechnya having a little Sharia, courtesy of Kadyrov.

The Tsars also played that game. They like Muslims more than non-Orthodox Christians.

Some of this "tolerance" might be pragmatism, missing from Erdogan's national-islamism/islamo-nationalism (take your pick), which was my point.

[The Larch]

Footage from Thessaloniki, but in all Greece where church bells toll the funeral sound and government flags were put to half-mast over this:
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1286663437851021312?s=20

I have to be honest I find the visceral Orthodox reaction really interesting just because, you know, Constantinople fell 550 years ago the building's been a mosque for almost all of that period. But it's really fascinating and important and relevant how deeply felt this is in the Orthodox Greek world.

FYP.

[Sheilbh]

So this seems relevant:

Ayodhya: Modi hails 'dawn of new era' as work on controversial temple begins
Foundation stone laid for temple to Lord Ram at site where mosque was razed 28 years ago


Narendra Modi takes part in the groundbreaking ceremony in Ayodhya. Photograph: Rajesh Kumar Singh/AP
Amrit Dhillon in New Delhi
Published on Wed 5 Aug 2020 11.53 BST

The Indian town of Ayodhya welcomed Narendra Modi for a ceremony marking the start of construction of a temple on the site where a mosque was razed to the ground by a Hindu mob 28 years ago.

Modi's Bharatiya Janata party has campaigned for years for the temple to be built at the spot considered to be the birthplace of the Hindu deity Lord Ram. The issue has divided Indians, alienated Muslims, helped propel the BJP to power and thrown its rivals into disarray.

Modi last visited Ayodhya in 1991. "When he came, he said he would only return to the city when work had begun on the temple, not before," said Kameshwar Chaupal, a priest and member of the trust responsible for building the temple.

On Wednesday, Modi offered garlands and prayers to the deity to the sound of conch shells blown by priests in saffron robes.At the temple site a 40kg silver foundation stone was placed in the ground.

Calling it the "dawn of a new era", Modi said: "India is emotional as decades of wait has ended. For years, our Ram Lalla [the infant Lord Ram] lived beneath a tent; now he will reside in a grand temple."

The temple construction is a political and religious milestone for Modi and the BJP. Following a sustained campaign, the party received the go-ahead for the temple last November from the supreme court, which said land should be found elsewhere for a new mosque.


People celebrate around a 7ft statue of Lord Ram in Pune. Photograph: Sanket Wankhade/AFP/Getty Images

The BJP has succeeded in turning the controversial issue of whether the temple should be built into a touchstone of Hindu identity, a marker of the Hindu nationalism that forms part of its core ideology known as Hindutva.

"It is an undoubted victory for Modi. He fancies himself to be a greater icon of Hindutva than the actual temple," said Parsa Venkateshwar Rao Jr, a political analyst.

Prominent Muslims have said the community was resigned to the decision but fear it could embolden Hindu nationalists to target two other mosques in the state of Uttar Pradesh.

"The Modi government should assure Muslims that Hindu outfits will not ask for the construction of temples in Varanasi and Mathura after demolishing existing mosques there," said Iqbal Ansari, the main Muslim litigant in the supreme court case, who now supports building the temple in Ayodhya.

Zafaryab Jilani, the general secretary of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, a lawyer who was also involved in the legal dispute, said that while Muslims had to accept the law of the land, it was wrong of Modi to attend the ground-breaking ceremony.

"It is against the letter and spirit of India's secular constitution for the prime minister in his official capacity to attend such a religious event. It shows a woeful and total disregard for the principles of the constitution," said Jilani.


People watch the ceremony on a big screen in Delhi. Photograph: Rajat Gupta/EPA

For Modi's political opponents, the start of the temple construction has presented them with a quandary. They dare not challenge the celebrations and festivities for fear of alienating many of their fellow Hindus and appearing out of step with majority sentiment. Yet they remain nervous at the BJP's success in conflating religious conviction with political ambition.

"When politicians hail the building of the Ram temple, they choose to ignore that it is being built on the debris of mutual accommodation and represents an unprecedented homogenisation of Hinduness," wrote Suhas Palshikar, a political scientist, in the Indian Express.

"In this sense, the past one year and more has been the period of 'no contest' in India's politics. If the BJP is guilty of dismantling the republic, all other parties are silent approvers."

The temple will have five domes, clusters of columns, and will reach a height of 50 metres. It is expected to be finished before the 2024 general election.

Some images and video of the demolition of the Babri Masjid:
https://theprint.in/in-pictures/unseen-photos-of-how-babri-masjid-demolition-was-planned-and-executed-in-1992/474297/

[Razgovory]

Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.