Hagia Sophia to be turned back into a mosque

[The Brain]

Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.

Someone hasn't been to Khajuraho...

[Sheilbh]

Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.

Strong disagree

[Valmy]

There are some key differences. This is not a mosque of similar importance to the Hagia Sophia, and it was destroyed decades ago instead of currently serving as a museum...however the attitude and intent is pretty much the same.

[Valmy]

Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.

Heh. That is an interesting take.

I can certainly see for somebody of more minimalist tastes it can appear so.

[Sheilbh]

There are some key differences. This is not a mosque of similar importance to the Hagia Sophia, and it was destroyed decades ago instead of currently serving as a museum...however the attitude and intent is pretty much the same.

I mean I think you could argue that Hagia Sofia and this are of similar importance to Orthodox and Hindus? And yes the 500 year old mosque was destroyed 30 years ago but that was in violence following a political rally which was held as part of a campaign to build a temple on the site of the mosque. According to some intelligence figures this had been something RSS and Shiv Sena had been planning for months. BJP leaders were there watching while the mosque was being destroyed. The leaders of the BJP were explicitly identified as being responsible in a later report by a judge. And one of them (later deputy PM) was arrested for his part in leading the campaign:

That's Modi on the right.

I mean that destructive element strikes me as the really key difference. It seems closer to, say, the Israeli groups who want to rebuild the temple.

[Valmy]

I think the fact that it was a secular museum celebrating both parts of the building's past, a place of peace now defiled by Erdogan's extreme rightwing nationalist hate, is also a key difference.

That pile of rubble was already a symbol of extreme rightwing nationalist hate for 30 years.

[Razgovory]

Hindu religious art and architecture is hideous.

Heh. That is an interesting take.

I can certainly see for somebody of more minimalist tastes it can appear so.

Temple architecture always looks so heavy. I know they are keen on carving out a temple from living rock but it looks like some took a really big orange-brown shit.

[Malthus]

Historically, tearing down someone's temple or church to build your own, or building one on a site important to someone else, or simply re-purposing someone else's building for your own were all significant ways one group established dominance over another; however, it often had a more unforeseen or unexpected result - that one group ended up taking on the characteristics of the other.

It is understandable that a group once subjected to such a gesture of dominance regains control, it would want to reverse things - to tear down the intrusive structure and rebuild what was there before. Unfortunately, this is usually a bad idea - not only because it inflames tensions, but also because the building being torn down is often historic in its own right.

I prefer the Israeli method - they have accepted the that the Dome if the Rock is a masterpiece, and have left it under the control of the Muslim authorities, despite the fact that it is built directly over the site of the Temple of Jerusalem.

[Sheilbh]

I think the fact that it was a secular museum celebrating both parts of the building's past, a place of peace now defiled by Erdogan's extreme rightwing nationalist hate, is also a key difference.

That pile of rubble was already a symbol of extreme rightwing nationalist hate for 30 years.

Secular building squatting in a holy space

And also I mean it's not going to be physically very different as a mosque than it is as a museum (it would be if Ataturk's initial plans were followed through on - but even that was arguably partly inspired by extreme rightwing nationalist hate).

[Tamas]

Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.

The Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.

And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.

[grumbler]

Secular building squatting in a holy space

"Holy space" 

[Sheilbh]

Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.

I mean as I say I think the Modi thing is far worse because they demolished a mosque to do it (and there are a few other mosques on Hindu holy sites) - especially given Modi's role in anti-Muslim pogroms in Gujarat. I think there are similarities between him and Erdogan I do think it's worth drawing a line between the symbolic violence that Erdogan is doing and the actual violence that Modi's done on this.

As Malthus says the history of these sites and spaces is complex because they are always an expression of domination of one form or another. Whether it's the Mughals building a mosque over Hindu holy sites (or destroying temples to build them) or the Zocalo in Mexico City it's the same thing. My own view is we generally have to accept what is there rather than reverse the domination in another form of domination, with the caveat that I like religious buildings being used to pray and as long as there's no real change to the structure or access to the building then I have no issue with it.

And from my memory of Hagia Sophie there were no exhibits or plaques like a typical museum (I think Turkey is missing out on this because the same goes for Topkapi Palace etc).

The Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.

And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.

So maybe this is part of the reason for my reaction, I don't identify at all with the Hagia Sophia or the Byzantines. Maybe if it was a Gothic cathedral - Salisbury or Notre Dame - I'd have more of a heart-pulling response but it doesn't feel any more connected to me than St Sophia in Kyiv. A beautiful incredible building but not mine. Also of course Englishness never particularly cared about the Turks - we were too far away, so the Holy Alliance reference made by Borrell would be met by incomprehension here except amoung EU4 fans

Our identity was being forged against the "dark", "oppressive" strictures of Spanish Catholicism - all hysterical mysticism, the Inquisition and the auto da fe. So if Borrell talked about another Spanish Armada we'd all know about it. And, of course, the churches that were seized, whitewashed and vandalised by iconoclasts in that expression of dominance are still in place and part of our national church. But that's what's there.

If the Christians built a church 500 years ago, even if there'd been a while when it was deconsecrated I'd have no issue with it being reverted to being a church. I think that might be the case with Mexico City Cathedral (and a lot of Mexican cathedrals): built on top of the Templo Mayor, shut down for 5-10 years during the revolution/Cristero war then back to being a church since the 30s or 40s?

"Holy space" 

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

[The Brain]

Do we have to feel equally the same way about every cultural symbol disrespected, on a personal level? Modi's stunt is exactly like Erdogan's yes, but there's simply not even an indirect link to my culture in that story so I can't pretend I feel the same way about it.

The Hagia Sophia was the chief architectural achievement of what would be an ancestor of the culture that shape our identity over here. It is a very rare direct link to the 6th century AD of Christian Europe, it represents a sense of continuity that isn't really matched with much else on account of its age and grandeur.

And that is being crapped on by Erdogan for petty populist reasons. I think it is entirely justified for this to leave a bad taste. It is basically as if Trump went into some holy burial ground of Native Americans, and among loud chest-thumping erected a Christian church on the premises. I don't think we'd go "well yeah but I mean the Christians been there for 500 years so its kind of up to him" in that case.

Does Erdogan plan to tear down Hagia Sophia? What exactly is it that he is doing that threatens the building?

[Valmy]

So maybe this is part of the reason for my reaction, I don't identify at all with the Hagia Sophia or the Byzantines.

I don't either. I am also not gay but when a gay man is beaten severely I don't issue praise, or minimize it, that at least he wasn't murdered.

Similarly if you commit a hateful provocative act like Erdogan I am not going to praise you for at least not ripping it down. And I am certainly no more friend of Modi than I am of Erdogan. I don't really see the point of your whataboutism. Especially the nonsense about pointing out that there are also bad Israelis who want to do something to the Dome of the Rock? I mean so fucking what? What does that have to do with Erdogan?

Is what Erdogan did the worst thing ever? No. Is it even the worse thing done this year? No, what China is doing to the Uighurs is far worse. It may not even be in the top 10 of horrible things done this year.

Is what Erdogan did the worse thing he could have done? No.

But that hardly excuses anything.

[Sheilbh]

I mean I don't have an issue with it so I don't think it's hateful. It's provocative, it's posturing. Is it harmful? No. And my own preference as I say is that buildings are used and not museums. Places of worship should be used for worship and museums should be used, as God intended, to display a country's assorted loot.

And I'm not trying to do whataboutery. I posted the Modi story because I read it this morning and thought that's similar - but my reaction is different, I think, because they tore down a 500 year old building. I agree with Malthus that my preferred solution is the Israeli approach (the comment about Israeli extremists was because I saw this weekend videos of a large group of them praying in the Muslim section of Temple Mount, which again made me think of this story). But again I just saw all these stories and to me they seem connected or that they echo - it's not what-abouting (not least because I don't think there's anything awful to what about).