Hagia Sophia to be turned back into a mosque

[Tonitrus]

So you should be skeptical.

extra so in light of his actions in/towards Syria (actively supporting ethnic cleansing), Lybia (UN Embargo), Cyprus, Greece (border and airspace), the Eastern Med, about every European country where there's a Turkish migrant community, NATO.

I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there. 

But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.

[Duque de Bragança]

It was a meaningful symbol to the Orthodox Christians too.

It's been a mosque for most of the last 500 years. You know, I'm sorry but I have to deal with Protestants squatting in the Bendictine Abbey of Westminster, Moroccans have to put up with Seville Cathedral. At a certain point you have to accept all of the history the building has as valid, not just your slice half a millenium ago.

Back when there was a mosque, itself on the site of several temples and churches, Morocco did not exist. 
So I guess Moroccans put up with it without too much trouble.

PS: the squatting argument reminds me of the Catholic Church having to deal with Members of the Society of Saint Pius X squatting the Saint-Nicolas du Chardonnet. 

[Sheilbh]

I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there. 

But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.

I mean - yeah. Libya is the best argument I think there is for how lacking the EU is as a geopolitical actor despite the desire of this Commission. It's a near neghbour that has a direct impact on Europe. You've got a government that I think is still technically recognised by the EU and backed by the Italians as well as the Turks and Qataris and an alternative government backed by Saudi, Egypt, Russia, Israel and France - they're both backed by different European countries and fighting. It's not a great look.

Also just as an aside I think it's pretty impressive that Turkey has managed to project itself into the Libyan conflict and succeed against the side backed by Russia, Israel, Egypt etc which I'd expect to easily get the better of that situation.

[Tonitrus]

And yes, I am doing internal penance for misplacing "they're" with "their". 

[Eddie Teach]

Maybe minor displays of independence like that keep the Italians and French from brexiting.

[The Larch]

So apparently Erdogan's public adress to mark the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque was chock full of Ottoman irredentism and nostalgia. Can't find an article about it in English, so maybe this tweet summary might do meanwhile:

Turkey's President Erdogan lays out his irredentist vision after converting Hagia Sophia, declares the sleeping giant woke up, promises more to come, recalls Crusader wars, laments loss of Ottoman lands, reminds how Ottomans once ruled the biggest power from India to Austria.

It seems that somebody has the Hungarians beat in the historical butthurt rankings. 

[mongers]

I dunno, at least their on the side against the Russian there. 

But then Libya is a giant clusterfuck right now...perhaps much like Somalia, where we got involved, but then decided to cut and run when we got a little burnt.

I mean - yeah. Libya is the best argument I think there is for how lacking the EU is as a geopolitical actor despite the desire of this Commission. It's a near neghbour that has a direct impact on Europe. You've got a government that I think is still technically recognised by the EU and backed by the Italians as well as the Turks and Qataris and an alternative government backed by Saudi, Egypt, Russia, Israel and France - they're both backed by different European countries and fighting. It's not a great look.

Also just as an aside I think it's pretty impressive that Turkey has managed to project itself into the Libyan conflict and succeed against the side backed by Russia, Israel, Egypt etc which I'd expect to easily get the better of that situation.

They were doing quite well holding positions all around the capital, when about a month ago, either some small reversals or a deal between someone(Turks?) and the Russians saw three plane loads of Wagner mercenaries suddenly leave the front lines, where they'd been doing much of the operational command and heavy lifting.

Since then Haftar's been in near head-long retreat, don't know the reason for the Russians pulling their forces out.

Now the Egyptians look set to directly intervene if it gets worse and much of Eastern Libya goes to the UN-backed govt.

[Duque de Bragança]

So apparently Erdogan's public adress to mark the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque was chock full of Ottoman irredentism and nostalgia. Can't find an article about it in English, so maybe this tweet summary might do meanwhile:

Turkey's President Erdogan lays out his irredentist vision after converting Hagia Sophia, declares the sleeping giant woke up, promises more to come, recalls Crusader wars, laments loss of Ottoman lands, reminds how Ottomans once ruled the biggest power from India to Austria.

It seems that somebody has the Hungarians beat in the historical butthurt rankings. 

Mohàcs avenged!!! 

PS : Erdogan being nice to Mughals but not Persians, obviously. 

[Sheilbh]

They were doing quite well holding positions all around the capital, when about a month ago, either some small reversals or a deal between someone(Turks?) and the Russians saw three plane loads of Wagner mercenaries suddenly leave the front lines, where they'd been doing much of the operational command and heavy lifting.

Since then Haftar's been in near head-long retreat, don't know the reason for the Russians pulling their forces out.

Now the Egyptians look set to directly intervene if it gets worse and much of Eastern Libya goes to the UN-backed govt.

Yeah I mean it's extraordinary to see Haftar's retreat given his sponsors.

And you're right that now Egypt is threatening to intervene directly. I think there are pretty serious questions to be asked of France in backing Haftar (along with Russia, Egypt etc). I think it weakens European criticism of foreign intervention (such as by Turkey in support of the recognised government) in Libya which has been a big part of especially German and Italian politicy, but also it has arguably opened the door to this.

[grumbler]

The mes in Libya is such that any actor can be criticized for just about anything they have done, since it has all turned to shit.  Frakly, I think that international recognition should have stayed with the Libya House of Representatives.  Certainly the UN-imposed "Government of national Accord" has little government, nothing national, and no accord.

When it's Russia versus Turkey, you just have to root for the meteor strike.

[Malthus]

I don't know much about the state of the current conflict there, but I get the impression the Turks are at least in part interested in Libya's oil resources.

Apparently both Turkey and Egypt are intervening in support of two different 'factions' in the ongoing saga to control oil and gas production around the Med - one roughly being Egypt, Cyprus, Israel and Greece, the other Turkey.

That's why you have the odd sight of a Libyan rebel group appealing to Israel for military support.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/in-interview-with-israeli-paper-top-libyan-rebel-calls-for-israels-support/amp/

[Sheilbh]

Footage from Thessaloniki, but in all Greece where church bells toll the funeral sound and government flags were put to half-mast over this:
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1286663437851021312?s=20

I have to be honest I find the visceral Orthodox reaction really interesting just because, you know, Constantinople fell 550 years ago the building's been a mosque for almost all of that period. But it's really fascinating and important and relevant how deeply felt this is in the Orthodox world.

[Valmy]

How is it fascinating? Well it was the center of the Orthodox world. The most holy spot outside of Jerusalem, the seat of the Patriarch in the Holy City of Constantinople.

But obviously this is a nationalist fuck you to the Orthodox world so of course it is being taken that way. So is it surprising or fascinating that it is being taken that way in this part of the world? This is practically the regional sport.

And I guess I should remind you it is not a church that is being converted into a mosque, it is a museum. But before it was kind of like "hey this building is important to both of us so let's appreciate it that way" to "HAHA! FUCK YOU YOU INFERIOR CONQUERED FUCKS" so yeah.

As I said it is not really about Islam or religion. It is a supremacist nationalist statement that is well understood by all of Turkey's Orthodox neighbors.

[grumbler]

Yep.  This is a massive troll by Erdogan, but what is fascinating about it is how many people actually fall for the line that this is about religion.

As Valmy has pointed out, there's no shortage of mosques in Istanbul (which isn't a highly religious city anyway), but ths "fuck you, Christians!" plays well in rural Dumfuckistan, Turkey, and that's the Sultan's base.

[Syt]

Agreeed.

What worries me more about Turkey is their aggressive foreign policy:

Deutsche Welle: Europe warns Turkey against natural gas mission near Greece

French President Emmanuel Macron has called for sanctions against Turkey for encroaching on EU member states' territorial waters. But Ankara has rejected such claims, saying Turkey is well within its right.

European officials on Thursday warned Turkey against pursuing a survey mission looking for gas reserves near Greek islands in the eastern Mediterranean.

Greece and Cyprus have accused Turkey of undermining their sovereignty by continuing to pursue energy resources within their territorial waters.

"The government is underlining to all parties that Greece will not accept a violation of its sovereignty and will do whatever is necessary to defend its sovereign rights," said Greek government spokesman Stelios Petsas.

French President Emmanuel Macron has called for sanctions against Turkey, saying it is "not acceptable for the maritime space of a European Union member state to be violated or threatened."

Last year, the EU adopted a sanctions regime targeting Turkey over its unauthorized gas drilling in Cypriot waters.

The instrument provides the EU with a way "to sanction individuals or entities responsible for, or involved in, unauthorized drilling activities of hydrocarbons in the eastern Mediterranean," according to a statement by EU foreign ministers in November.

However, Turkey has rejected claims that its energy-related activities in the region are transgressing Greek or Cypriot sovereignty. Instead, the Turkish government has claimed that it is well within its right — or those of Turkish Cypriots — to explore areas claimed by Cyprus and Greece.

"We want all natural resources in the eastern Mediterranean to be shared fairly," said Turkish presidency spokesman Ibrahim Kalin. "We will never accept threats or sanctions. We do not accept Greece's maximalist position."

Turkish survey ship Oruc Reis's mission remains "valid and effective," according to the port in which it is currently anchored off of. Its mission is likely to run through to August 2.

US officials have chided Turkey for pursuing the mission despite several warnings.

"I want to echo the clear message from Washington and elsewhere in Europe, urging Turkish authorities to halt operations that raise tensions in the region, such as plans to survey for natural resources in areas where Greece and Cyprus assert jurisdiction in the eastern Mediterranean," said US Ambassador to Greece Geoffrey Pyatt.

Voice of America: Turkey Faces Pressure as Libyan Conflict Widens

ISTANBUL - The Egyptian parliament's decision Monday to authorize the possible deployment of Egyptian troops in Libya is highlighting concerns in the region about a possible escalation of the Libyan conflict.  International pressure is, meanwhile, growing on Turkey over its involvement as Ankara doubled down on its support of Libya's Government of National Accord, fueling fears of a wider a regional war.

[...]

Reuters: Turkey shifts fight against Kurdish militants deeper into Iraq

ANKARA/BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Turkey is taking its decades-old conflict with Kurdish militants deep into northern Iraq, establishing military bases and deploying armed military drones against the fighters in their mountain strongholds.

[...]

Reuters: Erdogan says Turkey will remain in Syria 'until Syrian people are free'

ANKARA (Reuters) - President Tayyip Erdogan said on Tuesday that Turkish forces, which have carried out several incursions into northern Syria since 2016, would remain in the country until Syrians can live in freedom and safety.

"Nowadays they are holding an election, a so-called election," Erdogan said of a parliamentary election on Sunday in Syria's government-controlled regions, after nearly a decade of civil war. "Until the Syrian people are free, peaceful and safe, we will remain in this country," he said in a speech in Ankara.

These are just the headlines from the last few days. They've also voiced support of Azerbaijan in their recently re-ignited hostilities with Armenia, but haven't intervened yet.