Poll
Question:
Mother Theresa was...
Option 1: A living saint
votes: 9
Option 2: A flawed but well meaning individual
votes: 18
Option 3: A deeply troubled victim of her superstitions and prejudices
votes: 11
Option 4: An evil fraud
votes: 4
Apparently my Facebook feed cannot agree.
Is sainthood retroactive?
She was a Catholic Saint. So I suspect however you feel about Catholicism will factor in there. In the context of her faith she did the best she could.
But damn it is hilarious to see people falling over themselves to prove she was a subhuman demon. The internet is a crazy place.
Quote from: The Brain on September 06, 2016, 03:02:56 PM
Is sainthood retroactive?
In make believe, you can do anything you want.
Religious sadist. Should have been sent to jail for a long time for mass torture and murder.
She is an interesting and complex figure. Somewhere between 2 & 3. Definitely someone who should be viewed with sympathy rather than derision. And the question of whether she is or should be a saint is a whole different question.
The major criticism I've often dead against Mother Theresa is that she did nothing to alleviate pain, suffering, or poverty in those she ministered to - her primary purpose was to convert people to Catholicism. To an atheist this seems monstrous, but of course to a Christian it makes much more sense.
The most interesting, and perhaps tragic, facet of her life is how someone who dedicated her life to the Church in fact wrote diaries despairing of not feeling Christ in her heart.
Of course the notion that human beings here on earth can proclaim who is or is not a "Saint" seems fairly silly to my Protestant faith, but like I said that's a whole separate issue.
Quote from: Barrister on September 06, 2016, 03:27:51 PM
The major criticism I've often dead against Mother Theresa is that she did nothing to alleviate pain, suffering, or poverty in those she ministered to - her primary purpose was to convert people to Catholicism. To an atheist this seems monstrous, but of course to a Christian it makes much more sense.
And this is why her (and your?) brand of Christianity is ethically monstrous. While other totalitarian regimes like the Nazis or Soviets certainly used torture, they never saw moral good for the person
tortured in it.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 06, 2016, 03:22:37 PM
Religious sadist. Should have been sent to jail for a long time for mass torture and murder.
Wow. Alrighty then.
I love Languish. :D
Quote from: Martinus on September 06, 2016, 03:36:49 PM
I love Languish. :D
Why search all over the internet for bigots when Hami is right here? :lol:
Quote from: grumbler on September 06, 2016, 03:39:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 06, 2016, 03:36:49 PM
I love Languish. :D
Why search all over the internet for bigots when Hami is right here? :lol:
FWIW, Hami's views on her match the closest the leftists on my Facebook.
Hitch on Mother Teresa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL8MDnuUsE4
In the name of Holy Mother Church, Go forth, this Thread is ended. Go in peace.
In the name of Orville Redenbacher and the Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUI), this thread is resurrected.
Oh, good grief. Somebody runs across the wet cement, and Captain Concrete swings into action to reinforce the rebar up Hami's ass.
Does he even have access back here in game backroom? :lol:
Why was the thread locked/moved? Some deleted posts?
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2016, 01:21:03 AM
Why was the thread locked/moved? Some deleted posts?
Pure shenanigans.
Quote from: Jacob on September 07, 2016, 01:22:23 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2016, 01:21:03 AM
Why was the thread locked/moved? Some deleted posts?
Pure shenanigans.
Are mod shenanigans very productive at this point in the Languish life cycle?
Well Seed hasn't any offspring but Jacob does.
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 06:20:01 AM
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Even though this is coming from Marty, it isn't just some "alt-right hate meme". Beeb's version is the more charitable interpretation; here's the less charitable version (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/mother-teresa-sadistic-religious-fanatic/) from that hotbed of alt-right Trumptruppen, Patheos (including the video Hami linked). The alt-right may have (unfortunately) glommed on to this, but this has been an issue for secular humanists for decades. My wife and I personally come down between 3 and 4, rounded to 3, in Marty's poll.
Hey, you want to pick on a dead nun, be my guest. I thnk even secular humanists have more important shit to do, like assfucking the Dali Lama or something.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 08:17:51 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 06:20:01 AM
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Even though this is coming from Marty, it isn't just some "alt-right hate meme". Beeb's version is the more charitable interpretation; here's the less charitable version (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/mother-teresa-sadistic-religious-fanatic/) from that hotbed of alt-right Trumptruppen, Patheos (including the video Hami linked). The alt-right may have (unfortunately) glommed on to this, but this has been an issue for secular humanists for decades. My wife and I personally come down between 3 and 4, rounded to 3, in Marty's poll.
Interesting article... I was aware of her relationship with pretty unsavory individuals, but not the shenanigans around her missions' "treatment" of the poor.
My late grannie idolized her. Pity.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
Hey, you want to pick on a dead nun, be my guest. I thnk even secular humanists have more important shit to do, like assfucking the Dali Lama or something.
Is he the one with one 10 ft buttock (with a wooden support) and one normal? Could make it hard.
Quote from: celedhring on September 07, 2016, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 08:17:51 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 06:20:01 AM
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Even though this is coming from Marty, it isn't just some "alt-right hate meme". Beeb's version is the more charitable interpretation; here's the less charitable version (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/mother-teresa-sadistic-religious-fanatic/) from that hotbed of alt-right Trumptruppen, Patheos (including the video Hami linked). The alt-right may have (unfortunately) glommed on to this, but this has been an issue for secular humanists for decades. My wife and I personally come down between 3 and 4, rounded to 3, in Marty's poll.
Interesting article... I was aware of her relationship with pretty unsavory individuals, but not the shenanigans around her missions' "treatment" of the poor.
My late grannie idolized her. Pity.
Probably a good idea to actually look at other sources to get details. Patheos seems to be a blog that likes to spin, spin, spin. Probably a waste of time to read anything they have to say, even if they happen to be on the spot.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 08:17:51 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 06:20:01 AM
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Even though this is coming from Marty, it isn't just some "alt-right hate meme". Beeb's version is the more charitable interpretation; here's the less charitable version (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/mother-teresa-sadistic-religious-fanatic/) from that hotbed of alt-right Trumptruppen, Patheos (including the video Hami linked). The alt-right may have (unfortunately) glommed on to this, but this has been an issue for secular humanists for decades. My wife and I personally come down between 3 and 4, rounded to 3, in Marty's poll.
That Patheos article really just repeats and regurgitates the complaints from Chritopher Hitchens article of several years ago (though it at least has the courtesy to cite it).
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html
Much/most of his complaints really just boil down to disagreements with religion and catholicism, damning her for daring to believe in what catholics say they believe in. What he ignores of course is that she really did take a vow of poverty throughout her entire life. She was no champagne socialist attending $1000/plate fundraisers to help the poor - she really was in the front lines her entire life.
Quote from: Barrister on September 07, 2016, 09:45:09 AM
Much/most of his complaints really just boil down to disagreements with religion and catholicism, damning her for daring to believe in what catholics say they believe in. What he ignores of course is that she really did take a vow of poverty throughout her entire life. She was no champagne socialist attending $1000/plate fundraisers to help the poor - she really was in the front lines her entire life.
There is certainly an element of that (and it is a fair complaint in any case), but there is certainly much more to it than just a straight up disagreement with religion in general. There is an element of how you, in practical terms, implement religious views and how they drive behavior that matters.
In this case, her particular religious views resulted in the deaths of a lot of people. She might have been well meaning, in that she felt that their deaths were actually of benefit to them, but it is the case that others with her basic religious views can and have taken a more nuanced approach that avoids the problems with her fundamentalist views that damned thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? to a life of abject misery, poverty, and death.
Throwing gays guys off buildings is not any more palatable because the people tossing them think they are doing a good thing.
Denying poor people birth control with the inevitable and completely understood results is not more palatable because she believes that a child born into abject poverty who dies at a young age after a short, miserable life from some preventable disease is preferable to that child (and the several others who contributed to the lack of adequate resources) not being conceived to begin with.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Mother Teresa might be the best example of that cliché, ever.
Whatever she did she has the complete and utter endorsement of the contemporary Catholic Church. If you criticize Mother Teresa you criticize Catholicism.
The biggest surprise is that Marti thinks that she's still alive.
It is an interesting case study of how a lot of people don't do the research and will believe the popular version of things.
Actually reading about her for an hour it does become clear that she isn't as positive as the popular impression would have it.
I don't think she actually meant bad. But certainly her religion led her to commiting harmful acts.
There's a whole wikipedia page of criticism of Mother Theresa, for those interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa)
It boils down to:
- Accepting donations from unsauvory sources (Robert Maxwell and Charles Keating are the most often quoted names), as well as enjoying good relations with nasty regimes (Duvalier's Haiti, the Argentinian Junta of the late 70s, the Hoxha regime, Italian post-fascist groups...).
- The lack of almost any kind of medical care for her patients, without almost any qualified medical workers attending the sick and dying, with only aspirine being given to them and where hypodermic needles would be just washed and reused, and where people with curable diseases were left to die, all while she would fly to US hospitals when she had medical problems herself.
- That the establishments she ran didn't care for that many people, feeding only a few hundred people in her houses for the poor while other less media-friendly charities would care for several thousands.
- Not using the donations she received to improve conditions in her establishments but to expand her missionary network, perhaps deceiving her donors and/or mismanaging those funds.
- Her fundamentalistic/ultra-reactionary religious views (she was a huge opponent of the 2nd Vatican council, as well as any abortion, birth control, divorce...par for the course for a nun, I'd say, but I guess that she was still extreme inside that group). Her view of pain and suffering as a desireable thing in a religious context would also raise eyebrows, I guess.
- That on her establishments they'd routinely stealth-baptize dying people, which apparently greatly angered the Hindu and Muslim communities in Calcutta and other Indian cities where she operated.
This has been out in the open for decades already, AFAIK the facts are not in dispute and some of her criticism was directed at her during her lifetime. I guess that the only really eye opening stuff could be the fact that many people thought that their donations would serve to improve the living conditions of the people she "cared" for, rather than supporting her missionary network and religious fundamentalism. Her less than savoury relations with authoritarian regimes were well known in her lifetime, as well as her ultra conservative views, which are not far from the course from a hard core religious person. She had a public image of an saintly and compassionate agent for positive change amongst the most miserable people in the world, being given the Nobel Peace Prize for helping to overcome world poverty while she was rather a macabre fundamentalist that didn't lift a finger to alleviate poverty but thought that it was ok for poor people to resign themselves to their sorry lot on earth, whose suffering and hardships were seen by her as a positive thing.
Quote from: The Larch on September 07, 2016, 12:00:18 PM
She had a public image of an saintly and compassionate agent for positive change amongst the most miserable people in the world, being given the Nobel Peace Prize for helping to overcome world poverty while she was rather a macabre fundamentalist that didn't lift a finger to alleviate poverty but thought that it was ok for poor people to resign themselves to their sorry lot on earth, whose suffering and hardships were seen by her as a positive thing.
This part is the key for me of actual legitimate horror with her as a person, in contrast to the perception of her that the public had...she was a fundy who thought that while it was noble and good to minister to the poor, the existence of abject poverty itself was not something to be fought against, but rather the normal and natural way the world was and ought to be...
Charity is a racket for suckers, we kinda knew that already.
Quote from: Barrister on September 07, 2016, 09:45:09 AMMuch/most of his complaints really just boil down to disagreements with religion and catholicism, damning her for daring to believe in what catholics say they believe in. What he ignores of course is that she really did take a vow of poverty throughout her entire life. She was no champagne socialist attending $1000/plate fundraisers to help the poor - she really was in the front lines her entire life.
It's not about religion per se, she was very and extremely obviously a nun, I don't think that nobody would expect her to act in a way that would go agains catholicism. It's about presenting a public image of being an agent for helping the poorest of the poor when she actually not only didn't alleviate their suffering one bit but actually sought it. She was not helping the material conditions of the poor, she did not provide charity, she was in a fundamentalistic missionary quest seeking conversions. If her message had been "give me money so I can spread my missionary network to baptize dying miserable people in the 3rd world" I don't think she would have been that successful. It's not an anti-religious critique, it's an anti-fundamentalistic critique if anything.
And she might have taken poverty vows, but she was not against being flown around in a fraudster's private jet and being taken to exclusive US hospitals for her own treatments. You might disdain champagne socialists, but a single one of those $1000/plate events might have actually helped more people in a tangible way than Mother Theresa's entire endeavour.
I want to know why this was just deleted. Is anyone looking great with this?
Quote from: frunk on September 07, 2016, 10:41:00 AM
The biggest surprise is that Marti thinks that she's still alive.
Yes, hence "was". ;)
Quote from: garbon on September 07, 2016, 12:58:00 PM
I want to know why this was just deleted.
Mother Superior jumped the gun?
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 08:17:51 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2016, 06:20:01 AM
While I can appreciate the board's hostility against religion--particularly by our professionally cynical European Balls of Light--and as much as everyone would love to foster and nurture Marti's alt-right hate memes all day, we're keeping a cap on them. Enough regular posters have left as it is--and you just can't blame them all on me.
Even though this is coming from Marty, it isn't just some "alt-right hate meme". Beeb's version is the more charitable interpretation; here's the less charitable version (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/mother-teresa-sadistic-religious-fanatic/) from that hotbed of alt-right Trumptruppen, Patheos (including the video Hami linked). The alt-right may have (unfortunately) glommed on to this, but this has been an issue for secular humanists for decades. My wife and I personally come down between 3 and 4, rounded to 3, in Marty's poll.
It's just bizarre to link this thread to "alt-right memes". If anything, Breitbart idolizes her (probably mainly because they want to piss off the liberals who hate her). My leftist/progressive/anti-Christian friends think she was a devil.
For the record I voted no. 2 but was torn between than and no. 3.
Thanks for the intervention.
Clearly a saint. Though always nice to see secularists united with Hindu nationalists at a non behaving like a Christian and actually practicing her beliefs.
It seems that the best possible result was if she never became a nun or helped anyone. Far better to for people to starve to death than form a religious charity. Feeding the hungry is only acceptable when it's inspired by secular motivations.
I must say that I'm surprised about the poll results, given that we're hardly a pro-religious charitable audience.
For the record I voted 3, although I don't think that's the best possible wording.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 07, 2016, 04:18:14 PM
Clearly a saint.
:lol: Duh! One is clearly a saint, or clearly not, in the Catholic Church. That's one advantage of bureaucracies.
Though always nice to see secularists united with Hindu nationalists at a non behaving like a Christian and actually practicing her beliefs. (http://thoughalwaysnicetoseesecularistsunitedwithhindunationalistsatanonbehavinglikeachristianandactuallypracticingherbeliefs.)
It's always nice to see well-educated people reduced to mere assertions of the obvious when faced by a complex debate that would require some self-examination to participate in.
I've always thought that she was pretty much exactly what you would expect her to be, being what she was. I suppose that you could ding her for accepting expensive medical treatments when her flock could not, but I can't get worked up about that. All the stuff about her indulging in magical thinking is, to me, merely a description of what religious people do. I don't think debates over which brand of magic is the right one, or that she believed in the wrong kind of magic, are useful.
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2016, 04:52:02 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 07, 2016, 04:18:14 PM
Clearly a saint.
:lol: Duh! One is clearly a saint, or clearly not, in the Catholic Church. That's one advantage of bureaucracies.
I love when he displays this powerful, raw ignorance.
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2016, 04:52:02 PM
I've always thought that she was pretty much exactly what you would expect her to be, being what she was.
:lol: Amen.
Evil hag.
Every charity has a limited budget, so you have to spend it on things that give the biggest bang for the buck. Material wealth doesn't last, but helping people make the right choice when it comes to religion has eternal benefits.
I agree with the haters, and find it difficult to have sympathy for anyone who believes that poverty and suffering are beautiful.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 07, 2016, 08:59:25 PM
I agree with the haters, and find it difficult to have sympathy for anyone who believes that poverty and suffering are beautiful.
The question is not are poverty and suffering beautiful qua themselves, but if they have meaning, and are thus beautiful. To a secularist, no suffering or poverty has meaning. And that is the conundrum of Mother Theresa, because in the orthodox Christian world, suffering and poverty have meaning and worth and are beautiful.
But honestly, the same people who hate Mother Theresa hate Pius XII because he was Hitler's Pope, a demonstrably false canard.
Quote from: Scipio on September 07, 2016, 09:10:59 PM
But honestly, the same people who hate Mother Theresa hate Pius XII because he was Hitler's Pope, a demonstrably false canard.
Well, they hate all Popes.
Quote from: Scipio on September 07, 2016, 09:10:19 PM
And that is the conundrum of Mother Theresa, because in the orthodox Christian world, suffering and poverty have meaning and worth and are beautiful.
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Quote from: Scipio on September 07, 2016, 09:10:19 PM
And that is the conundrum of Mother Theresa, because in the orthodox Christian world, suffering and poverty have meaning and worth and are beautiful.
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
same reason politicians get caught with hookers, it's easier to tell other people how to live the. Do it yourself, even if you fully believe in your words. Hypocrisy and self interest are funny little human quirks.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
Because she can't continue her Good Works if she's dead.
I guess the simple test is to ask if the world would have been a better place if she had not existed.
If the answer is no, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 1 and 2.
If the answer is yes, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 3 and 4.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Quote from: Scipio on September 07, 2016, 09:10:19 PM
And that is the conundrum of Mother Theresa, because in the orthodox Christian world, suffering and poverty have meaning and worth and are beautiful.
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
Yep, just another religious hypocrite. Suffering is only good when it happens to other people.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 08, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Quote from: Scipio on September 07, 2016, 09:10:19 PM
And that is the conundrum of Mother Theresa, because in the orthodox Christian world, suffering and poverty have meaning and worth and are beautiful.
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
Yep, just another religious hypocrite. Suffering is only good when it happens to other people.
Seems a bit strange to lay your hat on that. So had she only sought out same care (or no care) as her patients, then she'd be totally okay because she was consistent?
Had to vote a living saint. I don't know if Mart included poll answer 1 as a joke, but it is somewhat useless. Being a saint means being a religious fanatic with values different from ordinary folks, and there's also an explicit list of saints (slight simplification).
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 08, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
Yep, just another religious hypocrite. Suffering is only good when it happens to other people.
I've never seen anything from her that would indicate that she didn't feel that her own suffering was not good for her. It seems to that you are reaching the conclusions you want to reach.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2016, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 07, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
The question, then, is why did she herself try so hard to avoid her own suffering? She refused palliative care for her patients while seeking the same for herself at the end of her life.
Because she can't continue her Good Works if she's dead.
But... she did.
Quote from: Berkut on September 07, 2016, 09:58:36 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 07, 2016, 09:45:09 AM
Much/most of his complaints really just boil down to disagreements with religion and catholicism, damning her for daring to believe in what catholics say they believe in. What he ignores of course is that she really did take a vow of poverty throughout her entire life. She was no champagne socialist attending $1000/plate fundraisers to help the poor - she really was in the front lines her entire life.
There is certainly an element of that (and it is a fair complaint in any case), but there is certainly much more to it than just a straight up disagreement with religion in general. There is an element of how you, in practical terms, implement religious views and how they drive behavior that matters.
In this case, her particular religious views resulted in the deaths of a lot of people. She might have been well meaning, in that she felt that their deaths were actually of benefit to them, but it is the case that others with her basic religious views can and have taken a more nuanced approach that avoids the problems with her fundamentalist views that damned thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? to a life of abject misery, poverty, and death.
Throwing gays guys off buildings is not any more palatable because the people tossing them think they are doing a good thing.
Denying poor people birth control with the inevitable and completely understood results is not more palatable because she believes that a child born into abject poverty who dies at a young age after a short, miserable life from some preventable disease is preferable to that child (and the several others who contributed to the lack of adequate resources) not being conceived to begin with.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Mother Teresa might be the best example of that cliché, ever.
there is no problem with religious fundamentalism, it's all a matter of personal choice and we shouldn't judge people for promoting their fundamentalist views. (yeah, that was sarcasm).
Quote from: The Larch on September 07, 2016, 12:00:18 PM
There's a whole wikipedia page of criticism of Mother Theresa, for those interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa)
It boils down to:
- Accepting donations from unsauvory sources (Robert Maxwell and Charles Keating are the most often quoted names), as well as enjoying good relations with nasty regimes (Duvalier's Haiti, the Argentinian Junta of the late 70s, the Hoxha regime, Italian post-fascist groups...).
That's a non issue. Every occidental government has had dealings with nasty regimes. Charities and churches accept money from everyone, criminals, murderers, psychopaths, everyone, without asking question. Political parties do the same and try the avoid the rules whenever there are.
Quote
- The lack of almost any kind of medical care for her patients, without almost any qualified medical workers attending the sick and dying, with only aspirine being given to them and where hypodermic needles would be just washed and reused, and where people with curable diseases were left to die, all while she would fly to US hospitals when she had medical problems herself.
that is a the biggest problem.
Quote
- Not using the donations she received to improve conditions in her establishments but to expand her missionary network, perhaps deceiving her donors and/or mismanaging those funds.
The donors were not deceived. They were giving to a missionary, a religious figure who promised to help the poor of India. What better way to help the poor than by having them discover Christ? All of these criticism against Mother Theresa in India were raised for the Cardinal Léger in Africa.
Quote
- Her fundamentalistic/ultra-reactionary religious views (she was a huge opponent of the 2nd Vatican council, as well as any abortion, birth control, divorce...par for the course for a nun, I'd say, but I guess that she was still extreme inside that group). Her view of pain and suffering as a desireable thing in a religious context would also raise eyebrows, I guess.
This is why having religious communities administer charities is a bad idea. Secularism everywhere. But to be honest, it's not like these people would have gotten better treatment elsewhere.
Quote
- That on her establishments they'd routinely stealth-baptize dying people, which apparently greatly angered the Hindu and Muslim communities in Calcutta and other Indian cities where she operated.
This is what BB was saying: she acted upon her Faith. For an atheist, it is despicable behavior. But she wasn't an atheist, she was a missionary, and a missionary's primary duty is to convert people to his/her Faith to save their soul. Jesuites priests didn't care about the indian communities so long as they converted to Cahtolicism.
QuoteI guess that the only really eye opening stuff could be the fact that many people thought that their donations would serve to improve the living conditions of the people she "cared" for, rather than supporting her missionary network and religious fundamentalism.
That's why you shouldn't give money to charities. Most of them are fraud. Some have upward of 90% funds used for administration.
Quotebut thought that it was ok for poor people to resign themselves to their sorry lot on earth, whose suffering and hardships were seen by her as a positive thing.
that's pretty much what religion teaches you. My parents learnt the history of all the martyrs of Canada, killed by Faithless Iroquois for attempting to redeem their souls. These people were looked at as heroes for their suffering. Poverty was seen as a virtue, seeking enrichment a sin. We still collectively suffer of this :(
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 12:19:43 AM
I guess the simple test is to ask if the world would have been a better place if she had not existed.
If the answer is no, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 1 and 2.
If the answer is yes, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 3 and 4.
The world would not have been better nor worst without her. Somebody else would have taken her place somewhere else in the world.
Quote from: The Brain on September 08, 2016, 03:04:53 AM
Had to vote a living saint. I don't know if Mart included poll answer 1 as a joke, but it is somewhat useless. Being a saint means being a religious fanatic with values different from ordinary folks, and there's also an explicit list of saints (slight simplification).
Wasn't joking - I used the expression in its common (as opposed to a theological) sense.
Viper is right. If Mother Theresa wasn't a nun, half of this board would support her candidacy for the next POTUS.
As much as I like to bust on Catholicism I can't really bring myself to badmouth her. Let the Catholics have their saint.
One thing I will say for her is that she personally rescued Michael Jackson (the British beer writer, not the weirdo) in Calcutta when he was trapped in the middle of the city during some pretty nasty riots. She drove her big truck up to the building and told him to get in.
Quote from: viper37 on September 08, 2016, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 12:19:43 AM
I guess the simple test is to ask if the world would have been a better place if she had not existed.
If the answer is no, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 1 and 2.
If the answer is yes, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 3 and 4.
The world would not have been better nor worst without her. Somebody else would have taken her place somewhere else in the world.
Who?
:lol:
http://www.clickhole.com/article/7-my-most-prized-t-shirts-no-longer-make-sense-if--4862?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook
Well, this is good cautionary tale. Don't give food the poor if you are religious. Cause you'll end up being worse then Stalin and Hitler.
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 10:55:52 AM
Viper is right. If Mother Theresa wasn't a nun, half of this board would support her candidacy for the next POTUS.
No foreigners.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 08, 2016, 04:10:11 PM
Well, this is good cautionary tale. Don't give food the poor if you are religious. Cause you'll end up being worse then Stalin and Hitler.
Let's not exaggerate. Surely no worse than King Zog.
Quote from: garbon on September 08, 2016, 02:04:24 AM
Seems a bit strange to lay your hat on that. So had she only sought out same care (or no care) as her patients, then she'd be totally okay because she was consistent?
Nope.
Quote from: grumbler on September 08, 2016, 05:16:39 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 08, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
Yep, just another religious hypocrite. Suffering is only good when it happens to other people.
I've never seen anything from her that would indicate that she didn't feel that her own suffering was not good for her. It seems to that you are reaching the conclusions you want to reach.
We all reach the conclusions we want to reach.
Why do you want to come to conclusions about some woman from a poor country born before WW1? I mean no shit she is going to have different priorities than some modern westerner. A little tolerance for people's imperfections and foibles would be nice. Besides your condemnation would be more impactful on people who have not been dead for 20 years.
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 10:55:52 AM
Viper is right. If Mother Theresa wasn't a nun, half of this board would support her candidacy for the next POTUS.
Pretty sure nuns are allowed to run for office.
:lol: The woman was a member of one of the hardest of the hardcore orders for poverty, working with people that would make Languishites vomit, and she catches shit because she was a pro-lifer nun that didn't believe in contraception? Guess what: so did that whole side of the fucking planet she worked in. 1 Billion Slurpees Served.
And really: Hitchens? King of the Self-Preening Peacocks himself? The guy who could only wish he was Chinese finger-cuffed by Buckley and Vidal?
I know have my buttons that get me torqued, but man, what a bunch of over-the-top cynical cunts :lol: A nun. A dead nun.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 08, 2016, 06:51:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 08, 2016, 05:16:39 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 08, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
Yep, just another religious hypocrite. Suffering is only good when it happens to other people.
I've never seen anything from her that would indicate that she didn't feel that her own suffering was not good for her. It seems to that you are reaching the conclusions you want to reach.
We all reach the conclusions we want to reach.
Project much?
Quote from: Razgovory on September 08, 2016, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 08, 2016, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 12:19:43 AM
I guess the simple test is to ask if the world would have been a better place if she had not existed.
If the answer is no, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 1 and 2.
If the answer is yes, then your answer on the poll falls somewhere between 3 and 4.
The world would not have been better nor worst without her. Somebody else would have taken her place somewhere else in the world.
Who?
was she the only missionary in the world?
Quote from: Valmy on September 08, 2016, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2016, 10:55:52 AM
Viper is right. If Mother Theresa wasn't a nun, half of this board would support her candidacy for the next POTUS.
Pretty sure nuns are allowed to run for office.
a Catholic President? When was the last? JFK?
The last to run was John Kerry.
There is nothing inherently wrong with a missionary position.
Is that in Deuteronomy?
My beloved extended his hand through the opening, And my feelings were aroused for him.
Is that Deuteronomy?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with a missionary position.
I now have a mental picture in my head I desperately need to get rid of. :Embarrass:
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2016, 01:25:05 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with a missionary position.
I now have a mental picture in my head I desperately need to get rid of. :Embarrass:
Aww. Sex isn't that bad, sweetie. :hug:
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2016, 01:25:05 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with a missionary position.
I now have a mental picture in my head I desperately need to get rid of. :Embarrass:
Why do we only see pictures of super old Mother Teresa? She was young once, right?
Quote from: alfred russel on September 09, 2016, 09:37:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2016, 01:25:05 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with a missionary position.
I now have a mental picture in my head I desperately need to get rid of. :Embarrass:
Why do we only see pictures of super old Mother Teresa? She was young once, right?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9d/68/d2/9d68d2d79dc9a3eb87a129ab83e316ac.jpg)
There you go.
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
I read somewhere she was born in the Ottoman Empire.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 09, 2016, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
I read somewhere she was born in the Ottoman Empire.
Well the Serbs liberated her homeland when she was a toddler.
Damn, I thought she was white. :P
Support for her from Breitbart: plummetting. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
odd she looks Southern European to mee. Might just be the sepia thing.
Quote from: HVC on September 10, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
odd she looks Southern European to mee. Might just be the sepia thing.
I agree. She doesn't look Eastern European to me at all. She looks Romanian, Bulgarian or Roma.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 09, 2016, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
I read somewhere she was born in the Ottoman Empire.
From Wiki:
QuoteBorn Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu
26 August 1910
Üsküp, Kosovo Vilayet, Ottoman Empire
(modern Skopje, Republic of Macedonia)
She was ethnically Albanian. You guys seem surprised by this, I thought it was pretty well established.
Quote from: HVC on September 10, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
odd she looks Southern European to mee. Might just be the sepia thing.
[spellus]The hawtest and most bootiful wimmins in the verld[/spellus]
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2016, 04:19:16 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 10, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
odd she looks Southern European to mee. Might just be the sepia thing.
I agree. She doesn't look Eastern European to me at all. She looks Romanian, Bulgarian or Roma.
We consider those Eastern European.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2016, 07:39:52 AM
We consider those Eastern European.
Just another example of how Marti thinks he's people.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2016, 07:39:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2016, 04:19:16 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 10, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
odd she looks Southern European to mee. Might just be the sepia thing.
I agree. She doesn't look Eastern European to me at all. She looks Romanian, Bulgarian or Roma.
We consider those Eastern European.
Yeah. My apologies. Southern Euro. She certainly does not look Polish or something.
Quote from: The Larch on September 10, 2016, 06:17:13 AM
She was ethnically Albanian. You guys seem surprised by this, I thought it was pretty well established.
Since she is being judged for failing modern western secular values you can see why people might think she was a modern western secular person in someway.
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2016, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 10, 2016, 06:17:13 AM
She was ethnically Albanian. You guys seem surprised by this, I thought it was pretty well established.
Since she is being judged for failing modern western secular values you can see why people might think she was a modern western secular person in someway.
I think it goes deeper. She fucks up the whole "religion is evil", idea promoted by people like Hitchens. She must be presented as a monster because otherwise the whole philosophy unravels.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2016, 12:06:52 PM
I think it goes deeper. She fucks up the whole "religion is evil", idea promoted by people like Hitchens. She must be presented as a monster because otherwise the whole philosophy unravels.
I hardly think Hitchens required every single religious person be evil. Granted he is not around to ask anymore.
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2016, 12:12:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2016, 12:06:52 PM
I think it goes deeper. She fucks up the whole "religion is evil", idea promoted by people like Hitchens. She must be presented as a monster because otherwise the whole philosophy unravels.
I hardly think Hitchens required every single religious person be evil. Granted he is not around to ask anymore.
Don't interrupt the tribal narrative. Hitchens was evil and lacked all sense of nuance and that's all there is to it. He must be presented as a monster or the whole magical thinking philosophy unravels.
Personally, I think Hitchens was just too much in love with his own self-image, which was built around what he saw as telling the unwelcome truth, so he plunged ahead and believed (and I do think he believed; he wasn't trying to fool others) the most absurd "truths" if they were sufficiently "shocking." His statement along the lines that "it is a matter of record that Mother Teresa was a fanatic and a fraud" shows how far he was deluding himself, because, of course, that wasn't a matter of record at all. He just assumed that whatever he believed was self-evidently true and "a matter of record," and he lacked the humility and self-awareness to examine his own positions.
Of course, pretty much the exact same thing was true of Mother Teresa and is true of her uncritical defenders, as well.
You see that? grumbler went Hitchens there.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 10, 2016, 02:44:03 PM
You see that? grumbler went Hitchens there.
you never go full Hitchens.
What scares me most about Hitchens is that I recently realised how much I am beginning to resemble him, in terms of hairdo (the parted, side weave pre-cancer one), corpulence and choice of jackets. :(
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2016, 12:12:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2016, 12:06:52 PM
I think it goes deeper. She fucks up the whole "religion is evil", idea promoted by people like Hitchens. She must be presented as a monster because otherwise the whole philosophy unravels.
I hardly think Hitchens required every single religious person be evil. Granted he is not around to ask anymore.
Not every person, but if you are staking everything on "religion is evil", (and toward the end of his career, he was), than people doing good works in the name of a religion is a problem.
Quote from: The Larch on September 10, 2016, 06:17:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 09, 2016, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
Damn that is one Eastern European looking person.
I read somewhere she was born in the Ottoman Empire.
From Wiki:
QuoteBorn Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu
26 August 1910
Üsküp, Kosovo Vilayet, Ottoman Empire
(modern Skopje, Republic of Macedonia)
She was ethnically Albanian. You guys seem surprised by this, I thought it was pretty well established.
Fuck me. I thought she was from Albany.
I thought she was from Alabama.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 10, 2016, 02:44:03 PM
You see that? grumbler went Hitchens there.
??
He didn't drink even a single dram
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2016, 05:48:13 AM
I thought she was from Alabama.
Well now hold on. I said she was from a poor country not a total shit hole.