Languish.org

Quite possibly terrorist. Modus operandi is not typical though.

QuoteVehicle ploughs into crowd in Nice in apparent attack, 30 killed: officials and French Media (LCI)
       


NICE (FRANCE) (AFP) -
A van ploughed into a crowd leaving a fireworks display in the French Riviera town of Nice on Thursday, injuring several people and sparking panic, in what local officials said could be an attack.

Police and ambulances went to the scene and authorities from the local Alpes-Maritimes prefecture urged residents to stay indoors.

An AFP reporter described seeing a white van driving at high speed onto the famed Promenade des Anglais as people were leaving after the annual Bastille Day celebration display.

"We saw people hit and bits of debris flying around," he said.

It's a bit vague now. Reports that security forces shot and killed the driver.

I was earlier there during the Euro... Security was not as tight as in Paris. Anecdotal evidence.

http://www.france24.com/en/20160714-vehicle-ploughs-crowd-nice-apparent-attack-several-hurt-officials (http://www.france24.com/en/20160714-vehicle-ploughs-crowd-nice-apparent-attack-several-hurt-officials)

BBC are now reporting "many dead".

I'm hoping that's a error caused by the confusion.

edit 2 :

BBC now reporting this:

Quote'Many dead' as lorry hits crowd in Nice
14 July 2016
From the section
Europe
Share
Image caption
Social media video showed people fleeing after the incident

A lorry has struck a crowd during Bastille Day celebrations in the southern French city of Nice, with reports of many dead.

The incident took place on the famous Promenade des Anglais during a firework display, media reports say.

One image on Twitter showed about a dozen people lying on the street, some being tended to.

The local prefecture has urged people in the area to remain indoors, calling the incident "an attack".

Nice Mayor Christian Estrosi said that "a lorry driver appears to have killed dozens of people".

He urged residents to stay indoors.

Some reports spoke of shots being exchanged between police and the occupants of the lorry but these have not been confirmed.

Social media video showed people running through the streets in panic following the incident.

A journalist with the Nice Matin newspaper reported from the scene that there was "a lot of blood and without doubt many injured".

An Agence France-Presse reporter said the incident took place as the firework display was ending, adding: "We saw people hit and bits of debris flying around."

Another image on Twitter showed a white lorry stopped in the middle of the promenade with damage to its front, and four police officers observing it while taking cover behind a palm tree.

Report here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730)

Wasn't there a woman who drove into a crowd in Paris in 1998?

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:03:25 PM
Quite possibly terrorist. Modus operandi is not typical though.

QuoteVehicle ploughs into crowd in Nice in apparent attack, 30 killed: officials and French Media (LCI)
       

Could be similar to those spur of the moment vehicle attacks by Palestinians on Israeli civilian or military queues at bus stop etc.

Yep, she killed one person IIRC. News report were silenced for a while or got lost in the noise since it was after France winning the World Cup.

Unconfirmed reports that Hostage taking is in progress in famous hotels Méridien and at the Négresco.
This would prove this is a coordinated terrorist attack.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:11:41 PM
Unconfirmed reports that Hostage taking is in progress in famous hotels Méridien and at the Négresco.

If true they're at best herding them together for mass execution.

This is fucked up

Local police prefecture describes now the lorry attack as a terrorist attack.

QuoteLe parquet de Nice évoque une soixantaire de blessés
Le parquet de Nice, contacté par francetv info, le parquet de Nice évoque "une soixantaine de morts" mais précise qu'il ne s'agit pour l'heure d'une estimation.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/14/01016-20160714LIVWWW00269-attentat-nice-promenade-des-anglais.php#001902 (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/14/01016-20160714LIVWWW00269-attentat-nice-promenade-des-anglais.php#001902)

Possibly 60 dead people (estimative).

Fucked up.  :(

Photo shown on AJ depicts a white 2/3-axle non-articulated lorry with extensive damage to its front, stopped on the road. 

The all white vehicle with no obvious logos suggests what? That it might have been a rented truck??

Not seeing anything about the hostage taking in the media. Is it confirmed? Hoping that part is a false alarm...

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:22:02 PM

QuoteLe parquet de Nice évoque une soixantaire de blessés
Le parquet de Nice, contacté par francetv info, le parquet de Nice évoque "une soixantaine de morts" mais précise qu'il ne s'agit pour l'heure d'une estimation.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/14/01016-20160714LIVWWW00269-attentat-nice-promenade-des-anglais.php#001902 (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/14/01016-20160714LIVWWW00269-attentat-nice-promenade-des-anglais.php#001902)

Possibly 60 dead people (estimative).

they say both 60 dead and injured... maybe just a typo... hopefully...

Reports about the lorry indicate weapons like guns, rifles and grenades were found inside. Figaro local source.

QuoteDes armes auraient été retrouvées à l'intérieur du camion
Plusieurs armes, fusils et grenades ont été retrouvés à l'intérieur du camion qui a foncé dans la foule, précise une source locale, contactée par Le Figaro. Cette dernière évoque un acte terroriste prémédité.

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 05:36:46 PM
Not seeing anything about the hostage taking in the media. Is it confirmed? Hoping that part is a false alarm...

Just officially denied on LCI.

People in Nice are strongly advised to stay home.

Police in Nice says now 73 people were killed. (Le Figaro).

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 05:27:34 PM
Photo shown on AJ depicts a white 2/3-axle non-articulated lorry with extensive damage to its front, stopped on the road. 

The all white vehicle with no obvious logos suggests what? That it might have been a rented truck??

From Le Monde through a local newspaper (Nice-Matin)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnWvBQ7WAAAv6c4.jpg:large)

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:47:47 PM


From Le Monde through a local newspaper (Nice-Matin)

Duque, sad that you had to open two threads on Bastille day with such contrasting themes.  :(

Guardian is saying 60 dead.  :cry:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 05:51:02 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:47:47 PM


From Le Monde through a local newspaper (Nice-Matin)

Duque, sad that you had to open two threads on Bastille day with such contrasting themes.  :(

I am afraid the timing matters little actually. Give or take a day, it's 60-70 dead plus hundreds of injured. The state of emergency was supposed to end after the Tour de France. Euro 2016-style security measures were still in place.

I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

You go and find everyone who has contact with ISIS propaganda and if they are not French citizens, you deport them immediately. If they are dual citizens, strip them of French citizenship and deport them immediately. If they are solely French citizens, send them for in-depth de-radicalization followed by permanent monitoring.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:59:53 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 05:51:02 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 05:47:47 PM


From Le Monde through a local newspaper (Nice-Matin)

Duque, sad that you had to open two threads on Bastille day with such contrasting themes.  :(

I am afraid the timing matters little actually. Give or take a day, it's 60-70 dead plus hundreds of injured. The state of emergency was supposed to end after the Tour de France. Euro 2016-style security measures were still in place.

Yes, the Tour de France must be a real worry, as the least dangerous attack might be someone pushing the favourite down and still gaining massive publicity. And then all the way up to suicide bombings, that realistically they can't possibly check for on hundreds of miles of public roads.

Trump: when will we learn.
Am I correct to read absolute fucknuttery in this?

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:03:02 PM

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

You go and find everyone who has contact with ISIS propaganda and if they are not French citizens, you deport them immediately. If they are dual citizens, strip them of French citizenship and deport them immediately. If they are solely French citizens, send them for in-depth de-radicalization followed by permanent monitoring.

If you do that then Muslims will hate France.

Quote from: The Brain on July 14, 2016, 06:14:08 PM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:03:02 PM

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

You go and find everyone who has contact with ISIS propaganda and if they are not French citizens, you deport them immediately. If they are dual citizens, strip them of French citizenship and deport them immediately. If they are solely French citizens, send them for in-depth de-radicalization followed by permanent monitoring.

If you do that then Muslims will hate France.

Day late, dollar short.

For some reason the Élysée Palace (French president residency) still does not want to say it's a terrorist attack. Just a criminal act.  :hmm:

A video of the lorry picking up pace to crush people has been shown on French TV.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:17:59 PM
For some reason the Élysée Palace (French president residency) still does not want to say it's a terrorist attack. Just a criminal act.  :hmm:

A video of the lorry picking up pace to crush people has been shown on French TV.

Mustn't appear racist at all cost.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:17:59 PM
For some reason the Élysée Palace (French president residency) still does not want to say it's a terrorist attack. Just a criminal act.  :hmm:

A video of the lorry picking up pace to crush people has been shown on French TV.

By the looks of the lorry windscreen, some police managed to get some shots into the moving vehicle as it passed?

Damn :(

I guess the police can't rule out the possibility this was intended to be an explosive laden lorry bomb, but for some reason it wasn't triggered or set off and so the driver carried on running down people?

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:19:00 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:17:59 PM
For some reason the Élysée Palace (French president residency) still does not want to say it's a terrorist attack. Just a criminal act.  :hmm:

A video of the lorry picking up pace to crush people has been shown on French TV.

Mustn't appear racist at all cost.

Otherwise, Le Pen would profit from it, I know. Still...

Hollande is now back from Avignon, at the Interior ministry crisis cell, place Beauveau in Paris, not far from the Elysée palace itself.

Lorry ran over people for about 2 km at 40-50 kph along the famous Promenade des Anglais that had like 100,000 people there watching the fireworks.

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:33:25 PM
I guess the police can't rule out the possibility this was intended to be an explosive laden lorry bomb, but for some reason it wasn't triggered or set off and so the driver carried on running down people?

It's still unclear if there was a firefight with the driver, after the truck was stopped, by arms fire.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:35:53 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:33:25 PM
I guess the police can't rule out the possibility this was intended to be an explosive laden lorry bomb, but for some reason it wasn't triggered or set off and so the driver carried on running down people?

It's still unclear if there was a firefight with the driver, after the truck was stopped, by arms fire.

I've just heard on the bbbc news channel an interview with an Egyptian tourist, who said he was within feet of the truck when it stopped and he saw the driver pull out a handgun before engaging/being engaged by police. He says he has a video of it on his phone.

edit:

AP are saying:

Quote
The Associated Press
@AP    16m
BREAKING: Christian Estrosi, president of the region, says the truck in Nice was loaded with arms and grenades.

From the Guardian:

Quote"There were so many Muslim people who were victims because I could see they had scarves over their head and some were speaking Arabic. One family lost a mother and in Arabic they were saying she's a martyr.

This, right here, is the problem.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:41:17 PM
From the Guardian:

Quote"There were so many Muslim people who were victims because I could see they had scarves over their head and some were speaking Arabic. One family lost a mother and in Arabic they were saying she's a martyr.

This, right here, is the problem.

Or she might be a martyr to carrying on ones day-to-day life and enjoying civic celebrations alongside a broad range of her fellow citizens?

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:44:59 PM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:41:17 PM
From the Guardian:

Quote"There were so many Muslim people who were victims because I could see they had scarves over their head and some were speaking Arabic. One family lost a mother and in Arabic they were saying she's a martyr.

This, right here, is the problem.

Or she might be a martyr to carrying on ones day to day life and enjoying civic celebrations alongside a the broad range of her fellow citizens?

Do you really believe that?  :huh:

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:39:27 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:35:53 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:33:25 PM
I guess the police can't rule out the possibility this was intended to be an explosive laden lorry bomb, but for some reason it wasn't triggered or set off and so the driver carried on running down people?

It's still unclear if there was a firefight with the driver, after the truck was stopped, by arms fire.

I've just heard on the bbbc news channel an interview with an Egyptian tourist, who said he was within feet of the truck when it stopped and he saw the driver pull out a handgun before engaging/being engaged by police. He says he has a video of it on his phone.

edit:

AP are saying:

Quote
The Associated Press
@AP    16m
BREAKING: Christian Estrosi, president of the region, says the truck in Nice was loaded with arms and grenades.

It's plausible for the part by the Egyptian tourist.
I mentioned earlier the report about the lorry but then later some other source on TV said weapons were fake.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:41:17 PM
From the Guardian:

Quote"There were so many Muslim people who were victims because I could see they had scarves over their head and some were speaking Arabic. One family lost a mother and in Arabic they were saying she's a martyr.

This, right here, is the problem.

How?

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:45:50 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 06:44:59 PM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:41:17 PM
From the Guardian:

Quote"There were so many Muslim people who were victims because I could see they had scarves over their head and some were speaking Arabic. One family lost a mother and in Arabic they were saying she's a martyr.

This, right here, is the problem.

Or she might be a martyr to carrying on ones day to day life and enjoying civic celebrations alongside a the broad range of her fellow citizens?

Do you really believe that?  :huh:

You're the one putting forward a 'hypothesis' that the use of a tradition cultural phrase is somehow proof of a serious problem; I was merely conjecturing that this un-named victim of this massacre is no different to all the other people murdered.

I'd say the onus is on you to prove your grand theory.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:03:02 PM

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

You go and find everyone who has contact with ISIS propaganda and if they are not French citizens, you deport them immediately. If they are dual citizens, strip them of French citizenship and deport them immediately. If they are solely French citizens, send them for in-depth de-radicalization followed by permanent monitoring.

What is contact with ISIS propaganda? Like they have ever seen it? Also the way we protect our societies is to no longer be open societies?

:cry:

Not again.

Death toll is up to 77  :cry:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Guardian reports that the driver has been identified.

QuoteBoth French TV station BFM and local newspaper Nice-Matin are reporting that the driver is a 31-year-old with dual French-Tunisian nationality.

BFM is quoting a police source via Agence France-Presse who said that an ID card was found inside the truck. Reports say the man was a Nice resident.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:34:01 PM

Otherwise, Le Pen would profit from it, I know. Still...

Because having a terrorist attack every three months or so on French soil - plus punctual murders like this police chief and his family murdered inside their own home by a lone wolf with a knife - would not benefit Le Pen at all already. Right.

Let's not kid ourselves, Le Pen will be a top contender next time around - racism or no racism.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 14, 2016, 08:21:57 PM
Death toll is up to 77  :cry:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Over 80 now.

The guy wasn't just driving through, he was shooting into the crowd while driving at top speed through the crowd for 2 kilometers.

Even more horrific than most other recent attacks.  FFS, what's next?

Quote from: derspiess on July 14, 2016, 09:07:42 PM
Even more horrific than most other recent attacks.  FFS, what's next?

Turning everyday transport into weapons is terrible, I guess that's part of the tactics, to get us to fear WTF is next?

President Hollande has now made a public statement, extends state of emergency, calls up reserves, promises increased efforts in Iraq and Syria.

Increased efforts in Paris and Nice might have a better effect. 

I think it's time that the French Empire makes a return.

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 09:12:43 PM
President Hollande has now made a public statement, extends state of emergency, calls up reserves, promises increased efforts in Iraq and Syria.

More of the usual.

The problem is, both French armed and police forces are already overextended over the French national soil and - frankly - getting close to exhaustion. Even when calling in all reservists, you cannot be there all the time, every time.

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2016, 09:20:10 PM
I think it's time that the French Empire makes a return.

What would Napoleon I do?  :hmm:

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2016, 09:20:10 PM
I think it's time that the French Empire makes a return.

Which French Empire?  The Napoleonic one or the post-WWI one? 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 14, 2016, 09:23:01 PM
Which French Empire?  The Napoleonic one or the post-WWI one?

There is only one French Empire that counts - the real Imperial one.  :frog:

Fuckin double standards in languish.
This been happening for years in israel, but as long as the dead are israelis, who cares, eh?
Oh but now that nice french people are the victims, let's do something about vehicular terrorist attacks.

Palestinians have been running Israelis over for years. But the descendants of pigs, dogs and monkeys do not count.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 14, 2016, 06:03:02 PM

Quote from: celedhring on July 14, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
I can't see what kind of security measures could have stopped an attack like this particular one, really.

You go and find everyone who has contact with ISIS propaganda and if they are not French citizens, you deport them immediately. If they are dual citizens, strip them of French citizenship and deport them immediately. If they are solely French citizens, send them for in-depth de-radicalization followed by permanent monitoring.

Said this many times, but who is counting?

Muslims are incapable of sharing live with other cultures. The only way is separation. They need to be expelled back to their countries. ALL of them, because of their unique ability of instant radicalization.

But what do i know....

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2016, 09:24:40 PM
Fuckin double standards in languish.
This been happening for years in israel, but as long as the dead are israelis, who cares, eh?
Oh but now that nice french people are the victims, let's do something about vehicular terrorist attacks.

Palestinians have been running Israelis over for years. But the descendants of pigs, dogs and monkeys do not count.

If Israel could put its big pants on & simply annex the damn territories, we would care but no, they keep being scared little pussies so we will continue not give a shit.

Quote from: Drakken on July 14, 2016, 09:22:16 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2016, 09:20:10 PM
I think it's time that the French Empire makes a return.

What would Napoleon I do?  :hmm:

Invade Russia.

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2016, 09:24:40 PM
Fuckin double standards in languish.
This been happening for years in israel, but as long as the dead are israelis, who cares, eh?
Oh but now that nice french people are the victims, let's do something about vehicular terrorist attacks.

Palestinians have been running Israelis over for years. But the descendants of pigs, dogs and monkeys do not count.

Oh great. We have Capetan calling us Pro-Israeli dogs and Siege calling us Pro-Palestinian dogs. It is like we have all the flavor of the actual Middle East right here on our board.

Quote from: Drakken on July 14, 2016, 09:21:09 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 09:12:43 PM
President Hollande has now made a public statement, extends state of emergency, calls up reserves, promises increased efforts in Iraq and Syria.

More of the usual.

The problem is, both French armed and police forces are already overextended over the French national soil and - frankly - getting close to exhaustion. Even when calling in all reservists, you cannot be there all the time, every time.

Levee en masse :contract:

What a horrible senseless attack. It was 18 years ago I was out there on the Promenade des Anglais myself during the 14 Juillet.

How much longer can this continue?

Quote from: Valmy on July 14, 2016, 09:30:44 PM
Oh great. We have Capetan calling us Pro-Israeli dogs and Siege calling us Pro-Palestinian dogs. It is like we have all the flavor of the actual Middle East right here on our board.

Languish is the only place I know that is generally pro-Israeli, and generally anti-Siegebreaker.  :lol: #EastEndBoysAndWestBankWells

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2016, 09:29:31 PM
They need to be expelled back to their countries. ALL of them, because of their unique ability of instant radicalization.
But what do i know....

You mean expel them back to Palestine?  And push the Jewish settlers out of there?  I think we can work something out...

Quote from: Valmy on July 14, 2016, 09:43:18 PM
How much longer can this continue?

If we don't do anything about it, quite a while.

I've decided to formally opt out of this terrorist attack, it's the one that broke the camel's back.

I just thank God America isn't right next to Muslim-land.

Quote from: Drakken on July 14, 2016, 09:22:16 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2016, 09:20:10 PM
I think it's time that the French Empire makes a return.

What would Napoleon I do?  :hmm:

Convert to Islam, declare himself Caliph, and lead the forces of jihad.  :ph34r:

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 14, 2016, 11:17:11 PM
I've decided to formally opt out of this terrorist attack, it's the one that broke the camel's back.

C'mon, man.  That one hasn't even happened yet.

Quote from: Valmy on July 14, 2016, 09:43:18 PM
What a horrible senseless attack. It was 18 years ago I was out there on the Promenade des Anglais myself during the 14 Juillet.

How much longer can this continue?

For a long time anarchist attacks also was there for a couple of decades. And indeed look at Israel. It will end that we get used to it unfortunately like car crashes and school shootings.

AFP reporting 84 dead. :weep:

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/753823506480050176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

No true Muslim would carry out this horrible attack.

Quote from: Drakken on July 14, 2016, 09:21:09 PM

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 09:12:43 PM
President Hollande has now made a public statement, extends state of emergency, calls up reserves, promises increased efforts in Iraq and Syria.

More of the usual.

The problem is, both French armed and police forces are already overextended over the French national soil and - frankly - getting close to exhaustion. Even when calling in all reservists, you cannot be there all the time, every time.

But this is madness. One of the strongest countrist of Europe is overstretching its military AT HOME, to reduce terrorist attacks to around a dozen deaths per month on average. WTF

Quote from: Drakken on July 14, 2016, 09:05:15 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 14, 2016, 06:34:01 PM

Otherwise, Le Pen would profit from it, I know. Still...

Because having a terrorist attack every three months or so on French soil - plus punctual murders like this police chief and his family murdered inside their own home by a lone wolf with a knife - would not benefit Le Pen at all already. Right.

Let's not kid ourselves, Le Pen will be a top contender next time around - racism or no racism.

Merci Monsieur enfonceur de portes ouvertes. Context (Hamilcar and I mocking PC) and "profit even more" if it helps you understand.

Just read the news for the first time. Absolutely terrible. Condolences to France. :(

Quote from: mongers on July 14, 2016, 09:11:22 PM
Turning everyday transport into weapons is terrible, I guess that's part of the tactics, to get us to fear WTF is next?

It certainly shows how incredibly easy it is to cause mass carnage using everyday means. And by not having to organize bombs or guns, those fuckers have a much better chance to stay undetected.

According to le figaro.fr

QuoteINFO LE FIGARO - L'auteur de l'attaque condamné en mars dernier
Selon notre journaliste Christophe Cornevin qui cite une source policière, l'auteur de l'attaque de Nice a été condamné dans une affaire de violence en mars dernier. Le Franco-Tunisien de 31 ans est connu pour des affaires de droit commun. Il est, de même source, inconnu des services de renseignement.

The perpetrator had a criminal record and was convicted last March. "Affaire de violence" is pretty vague, could be battery for all I know. All of this according to police sources. Dual citizenship, as said before.
Unknown from French intelligence services. This includes counter-terrorism I presume.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/15/01016-20160715LIVWWW00050-en-direct-nice-attentat-attaque.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/15/01016-20160715LIVWWW00050-en-direct-nice-attentat-attaque.php)

lot's of people here with the heeby-jeebies given that "De Gentse Feesten" starts tonight and up a million people are expected during the event.

-------

I guess it's a blessing that truck didn't get any farther, towards where the concert was going on, and that it didn't explode with all those explosives that apparently were on board.

I wonder if you can ever do anything against a sole perpetrator who maybe radicalized himself online or so and then uses something as common as a truck to commit a terror attack. I can't think of where you could detect him.

Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

Quote from: Grallon on July 15, 2016, 06:38:34 AM
Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

Complaining that your own strawman got wet in the summer rains and won't now stand up.    :hmm:

Quote from: Zanza on July 15, 2016, 06:35:30 AM
I wonder if you can ever do anything against a sole perpetrator who maybe radicalized himself online or so and then uses something as common as a truck to commit a terror attack. I can't think of where you could detect him.

I wouldn't be surprised if many such persons have posted on various message boards etc and likely aired... frustration with the West and its civilians.

Video of the firefight between the police and the terrorist driver now on French TV. Lorry was already stopped.

Quote from: mongers on July 15, 2016, 06:50:21 AM

Quote from: Grallon on July 15, 2016, 06:38:34 AM
Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

Complaining that your own strawman got wet in the summer rains and won't now stand up.    :hmm:

:face:

Quote from: The Brain on July 15, 2016, 02:21:59 AM
No true Muslim would carry out this horrible attack.

And ISIL is not Islamic.

Need to get an orthopedic surgeon in to help with the injuries caused by all the violent knee jerking in the thread.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 15, 2016, 10:15:03 AM
Need to get an orthopedic surgeon in to help with the injuries caused by all the violent knee jerking in the thread.

Not sure, they may have a point. I mean, I don't know many lorry drivers personally, but you hear stories.

Could we get some examples of the knee-jerking?

Quote
Paris public prosecutor : 84 dead including 10 children, 50 people between life and death, 202 injured. #Nice

:(

:(

Unbelievable  :(

Quote from: Grallon on July 15, 2016, 06:38:34 AM
Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

The Orlando shooter was gay.  It's not the first time some gays commits terrible acts. 

QuoteIn 1992 two Jeffersonville, Indiana lesbians, aged 17 and 16, abducted a 12-year-old girl whom they accused of trying to "steal a girlfriend." The little girl was pushed into the trunk of a car, stabbed repeatedly, and beaten with a heavy metal bar. While still struggling, they poured gasoline on her and set her ablaze. Later that year a Fort Lauderdale, Florida 14-year-old was convicted of first-degree murder for helping to kill his 40-year-old father. The father "was stabbed 45 times and beaten so badly with an iron skillet that the skillet shattered." The boy confessed that he helped his father's former homosexual lover and roommate kill him so he and the 31-year-old "could live together."

These murders fit traditional psychiatric opinion: excessive violence is naturally associated with other forms of social pathology. From this perspective, those who rebel against society's norms — homosexuals, prostitutes, alcoholics, etc. — are more apt to be violent also. Gay leaders reply that they are not pathological, rebellious, or sexually deviant. They contend that gays are gentle, loving people and that the violence they experience proves that they need special 'hate crimes' laws to protect them from non-homosexual 'gay bashers.'

What is your plan to deal with the dangers posed by homos?  We don't seem to ever learn from our mistakes :(

Quote from: Grallon on July 15, 2016, 06:38:34 AM
Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

Well, the fascist right-wingers have already started politicizing this tragedy for their own ends, at least.

First night of the Proms concerts opens with the Marseillaise played in the royal Albert Hall, the whole crowd stood in a sign of respect.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 15, 2016, 03:26:49 PM

Quote from: Grallon on July 15, 2016, 06:38:34 AM
Where are the Muslim lovers?  Have they started their litany of justifications yet?    <_<



G.

Well, the fascist right-wingers have already started politicizing this tragedy for their own ends, at least.

Do they even need to say anything?

Daesh/Religion of Peace State claims the attack on Nice

France 24

Quote
Live: Islamic State group claims Nice attack, French police make arrests

Latest update : 2016-07-16
The Islamic State group has claimed responsibility for the Bastille Day truck assault in Nice, which claimed the lives of 84 people. French police made numerous arrests on Saturday morning in connection with the attack.

Here are the main developments so far:

The news agency Amaq, which supports the Islamic State group, said via its Telegram account, "The person who carried out the operation in Nice, France, to run down people was one of the soldiers of Islamic State."
French authorities are verifying the Islamic State group's claim of responsibility.
France has begun three days of mourning after a lorry ploughed into a crowd of people celebrating Bastille Day in the southern French city of Nice on Thursday.
84 people lost their lives in the attack, including children, with around 20 more critically injured.
The driver of the lorry, 31-year old French-Tunisian Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, was shot dead by police at the scene.
French President François Hollande said the state of emergency (implemented after the November terror attacks in Paris and due to end on July 26) will be extended by another three months.
The terrorist attack is the third of its kind in France since the beginning of 2015.

QuoteThe Orlando shooter was gay.  It's not the first time some gays commits terrible acts. 

I think this has been pretty widely discredited.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 16, 2016, 12:01:27 PM

QuoteThe Orlando shooter was gay.  It's not the first time some gays commits terrible acts. 

I think this has been pretty widely discredited.

I don't know some of Marty's posts were pretty atrocious and after Ian McKellen got famous, he frankly phoned-in some performances.

^_^

Boulevard de la Madeleine in Nice, locals say sixteen people from this one road died in the massacre.

Quote from: mongers on July 17, 2016, 06:28:59 PM
Boulevard de la Madeleine in Nice, locals say sixteen people from this one road died in the massacre.

Heartbreaking. :(

Quote from: Queequeg on July 16, 2016, 12:01:27 PM

QuoteThe Orlando shooter was gay.   

I think this has been pretty widely discredited.

It has?  I thought it was still pretty darn unclear.

French PM Manuel Valls booed at minute of silence in Nice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0Tu8CSinc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0Tu8CSinc)

Axe attack on a German train?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/about-20-people-injured-in-axe-attack-on-train-in-germany

Along with the floral and other tributes on the sites where people died, the French are marking the spot where the murder died, with rubbish and some passers-by stop to spit.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2016%2F07%2F18%2F18%2F3663C95900000578-3695834-image-a-3_1468861925146.jpg&hash=3a263451c7944f6556f0473d8c3873b490c0d200)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2016, 04:40:38 PM
Axe attack on a German train?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/about-20-people-injured-in-axe-attack-on-train-in-germany

Shot dead by police. Afghan refugee.

Thankfully only 4 injured and no deaths.

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 18, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Thankfully only 4 injured and no deaths.

QuoteAn axe-man who stormed a passenger train and hacked at terrified passengers while shouting "Allahu Akbar" has been identified as a 17-year-old Afghan who entered Germany as a lone refugee.

...His motive has not yet been revealed, with police refusing to comment on whether or not it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784)

Indeed, his motive may never be known to us.

Quote from: Legbiter on July 18, 2016, 06:10:13 PM

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 18, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Thankfully only 4 injured and no deaths.

QuoteAn axe-man who stormed a passenger train and hacked at terrified passengers while shouting "Allahu Akbar" has been identified as a 17-year-old Afghan who entered Germany as a lone refugee.

...His motive has not yet been revealed, with police refusing to comment on whether or not it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784)

Indeed, his motive may never be known to us.

It's called professionalism. As a policeman you don't speculate publicly before the investigation has even started.

I don't know man. If somebody is running around a bank screaming 'empty the vault! Fill these bags with 100 Euro Bank notes!' nobody will comment on the motive for what is going on? 'The police refuse to comment if this was a bank robbery'

Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 08:46:19 PM
I don't know man. If somebody is running around a bank screaming 'empty the vault! Fill these bags with 100 Euro Bank notes!' nobody will comment on the motive for what is going on? 'The police refuse to comment if this was a bank robbery'

The Bank robber is clearly an American here, otherwise he'd be demanding 500 Euro notes.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2016, 10:48:29 PM

Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 08:46:19 PM
I don't know man. If somebody is running around a bank screaming 'empty the vault! Fill these bags with 100 Euro Bank notes!' nobody will comment on the motive for what is going on? 'The police refuse to comment if this was a bank robbery'

The Bank robber is clearly an American here, otherwise he'd be demanding 500 Euro notes.

I just figured the majority of the notes would be of smaller denominations.

Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2016, 05:17:29 PM
Along with the floral and other tributes on the sites where people died, the French are marking the spot where the murder died, with rubbish and some passers-by stop to spit.

BTW this is awesome. A very French response.

Quote from: Legbiter on July 18, 2016, 06:10:13 PM

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 18, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Thankfully only 4 injured and no deaths.

QuoteAn axe-man who stormed a passenger train and hacked at terrified passengers while shouting "Allahu Akbar" has been identified as a 17-year-old Afghan who entered Germany as a lone refugee.

...His motive has not yet been revealed, with police refusing to comment on whether or not it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784)

Indeed, his motive may never be known to us.

It's difficult to know what motivated him, but we can be certain at least about what did not - religion had no role in this attack. Of course.

He could just as likely been a Buddhist, or god forbid a Christian Democrat.

Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2016, 05:17:29 PM
Along with the floral and other tributes on the sites where people died, the French are marking the spot where the murder died, with rubbish and some passers-by stop to spit.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2016%2F07%2F18%2F18%2F3663C95900000578-3695834-image-a-3_1468861925146.jpg&hash=3a263451c7944f6556f0473d8c3873b490c0d200)

One last tidbit of info.
Lache painted on the ground means coward.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 19, 2016, 08:57:41 AM

One last tidbit of info.
Lache painted on the ground means coward.

Thanks for that, I couldn't quit make out what it said.

There are other equally fitting photos of people spitting on the pile of rubbish.

Quote from: mongers on July 19, 2016, 08:59:49 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 19, 2016, 08:57:41 AM

One last tidbit of info.
Lache painted on the ground means coward.

Thanks for that, I couldn't quit make out what it said.

Me too, was having a hell of a time trying to figure out what Nick Lachey had to do with any of this.  So was Nick.

Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2016, 08:38:29 AM
It's difficult to know what motivated him, but we can be certain at least about what did not - religion had no role in this attack. Of course.

He could just as likely been a Buddhist, or god forbid a Christian Democrat.

Could easily have been a Return of the Jedi fan - "admiral" is hard for a native Afghan to pronounce correctly.

Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2016, 08:38:29 AM

Quote from: Legbiter on July 18, 2016, 06:10:13 PM

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 18, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Thankfully only 4 injured and no deaths.

QuoteAn axe-man who stormed a passenger train and hacked at terrified passengers while shouting "Allahu Akbar" has been identified as a 17-year-old Afghan who entered Germany as a lone refugee.

...His motive has not yet been revealed, with police refusing to comment on whether or not it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-train-axe-attack-afghan-8445784)

Indeed, his motive may never be known to us.

It's difficult to know what motivated him, but we can be certain at least about what did not - religion had no role in this attack. Of course.

He could just as likely been a Buddhist, or god forbid a Christian Democrat.

Just to clarify my own viewpoint: I do believe that this was a religiously motivated Islamist attack. But while we here can speculate and freely state our opinions without consequence, it's a lot more difficult for officials.
See the Munich stabbings in May for example. People back then here on the forum ridiculed the German police for not saying that they suspected an Islamist attack, even though the attacker had shouted "Allahu Akbar". As it later turned out, the attacker was a drug addict, mentally completely unstable and no muslim.

It also doesn't help that any random cockwomble can shout "Allahu Akbar" and Daesh immediately claims credit for it. My point being, we should be treating these people as random cockwombles instead of seeing a Vast Jihadist Conspiracy in everything.

It's radical Islamic terrorism Solmyr.

There see now we've called it what it is.  Problem solved, sleep soundly now.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 19, 2016, 01:50:35 PM
It also doesn't help that any random cockwomble can shout "Allahu Akbar" and Daesh immediately claims credit for it. My point being, we should be treating these people as random cockwombles instead of seeing a Vast Jihadist Conspiracy in everything.

Is it because he's brown that you deny him the right to define his own cause?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/26/men-hostages-french-church-police-normandy-saint-etienne-du-rouvray (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/26/men-hostages-french-church-police-normandy-saint-etienne-du-rouvray)

Another novelty, hostage taking in a church. Can't remember when it happened for the last time.

QuoteTwo men 'neutralised' after taking hostages in Normandy church – French media
Police say four to six people held hostage by men armed with knives in Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, northern France (near Rouen).

Two men who took hostages in a church in France's northern Normandy region have been "neutralised", according to French media reports.

The men, armed with knives, had taken several people hostage in a church in Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, police told Reuters.

French media reported that five hostages were being held, and that a sixth escaped and raised the alarm. A priest, two nuns and two worshippers were reported to be among the hostages.

Firefighters told RTL that several people had been injured.

Still not sure if the hostage takers were caught alive or killed. Some French media plus the BBC say so. Priest was confirmed as killed.

BBC reports that the priest was killed.

The hostage killers are now confirmed as killed. Church was already targeted before in a failed terror attack by Sid Ahmed Ghlam.

QuoteSid Ahmed Ghlam était déjà soupçonné d'avoir voulu prendre cette église pour cible
Sid Ahmed Ghlam avait déjà été soupçonné d'avoir voulu prendre pour cible l'église de Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, en plus d'autres lieux de culte catholiques de région parisienne. Son projet avait échoué, et l'étudiant algérien de 24 ans avait été arrêté après avoir tué sur son passage une professeure de fitness, Aurélie Châtelain.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/26/01016-20160726LIVWWW00086-prise-d-otage-en-cours-dans-une-eglise-de-saint-etienne-du-rouvray-pres-de-rouen.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/26/01016-20160726LIVWWW00086-prise-d-otage-en-cours-dans-une-eglise-de-saint-etienne-du-rouvray-pres-de-rouen.php)

One of the hostage takers was confimed to wear a beard according to our newspaper.
Damn this terrorism by latte sipping hipsters is going to far  :mad: ;) :(

Taking the violence into a church and murdering a priest is especially heinous. Reading about this was a flash of anger in an otherwise peaceful day.

Quote from: Lettow77 on July 26, 2016, 05:59:12 AM
Taking the violence into a church and murdering a priest is especially heinous. Reading about this was a flash of anger in an otherwise peaceful day.

Indeed.

Lettow, how are you and your getting on? :cheers:

 Meaning no disrespect to the tragedy being discussed here by answering your question, life has been very good. Everything proceeds pleasantly and I drink a lot of tea every day. My wife is beautiful and my son is a blessing.

Quote from: Lettow77 on July 26, 2016, 06:26:14 AM
Meaning no disrespect to the tragedy being discussed here by answering your question, life has been very good. Everything proceeds pleasantly and I drink a lot of tea every day. My wife is beautiful and my son is a blessing.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Lettow77 on July 26, 2016, 06:26:14 AM
Meaning no disrespect to the tragedy being discussed here by answering your question, life has been very good. Everything proceeds pleasantly and I drink a lot of tea every day. My wife is beautiful and my son is a blessing.

Lettow, really pleased to hear things are going swimmingly.   :)

So, just in case somebody had doubts, the terrorists pledged allegiance to Daesh, according to Hollande. Sorry, not militant atheists, not buddhists, not Jews, not vegans, this time.

I vaguely heard on radio that one of the attackers was already on a terror watch list. Any info on that?

I think the state of emergency may have proved its worth here, looks like a prompt response in this minor provincial town may have saved lives.

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 26, 2016, 07:08:08 AM
I vaguely heard on radio that one of the attackers was already on a terror watch list. Any info on that?

One of the perpetrators was under a probation regime called "bracelet électronique" i.e electronic home arrest.

QuoteUn des assaillants sous bracelet électronique ?
Un des deux assaillants est en cours d'identification, indique au Figaro une source proche du dossier. Si son identité se confirme, il ne s'agirait pas d'un fiché «S» mais d'un «velléitaire du djihad» refoulé par les autorités turques.
Incarcéré en 2015, il aurait été placé sous bracelet électronique en mars 2016 comme alternative à l'incarcération. Le parquet antiterroriste de Paris avait alors fait appel de cette ordonnance de placement sans obtenir gain de cause.
Depuis lors, ce djihadiste présumé était semble-t-il incarcéré chez lui.

According to Le Figaro, mainstream conservative daily:
The Paris anti-terrorist prosecution unit appealed against it but was overruled.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 26, 2016, 07:02:30 AM
So, just in case somebody had doubts, the terrorists pledged allegiance to Daesh, according to Hollande. Sorry, not militant atheists, not buddhists, not Jews, not vegans, this time.

Drats they fooled me again at first  :mad:

So they beheaded an 86 year old priest and a nun is fighting for her life.

France needs to take out the trash.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 26, 2016, 07:13:09 AM

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 26, 2016, 07:08:08 AM
I vaguely heard on radio that one of the attackers was already on a terror watch list. Any info on that?

One of the perpetrators was under a probation regime called "bracelet électronique" i.e electronic home arrest.

QuoteUn des assaillants sous bracelet électronique ?
Un des deux assaillants est en cours d'identification, indique au Figaro une source proche du dossier. Si son identité se confirme, il ne s'agirait pas d'un fiché «S» mais d'un «velléitaire du djihad» refoulé par les autorités turques.
Incarcéré en 2015, il aurait été placé sous bracelet électronique en mars 2016 comme alternative à l'incarcération. Le parquet antiterroriste de Paris avait alors fait appel de cette ordonnance de placement sans obtenir gain de cause.
Depuis lors, ce djihadiste présumé était semble-t-il incarcéré chez lui.

According to Le Figaro, mainstream conservative daily:
The Paris anti-terrorist prosecution unit appealed against it but was overruled.

why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

Just now reading about this church attack.  Was it Amish who again did this?  Militant Unitarians?

Quote from: derspiess on July 26, 2016, 10:20:38 AM
Just now reading about this church attack.  Was it Amish who again did this?  Militant Unitarians?

We moderate Unitarians would never stand for it :angry:

I am amazed they would kill a Priest. Even beheaded him Saint Denis style. Churches have not been a target of these sorts of attacks before, at least not in the West. Obviously the Eastern churches get pounded all the time.

Quotewhy was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

Yeah there are some interesting policy questions around this.

Probably a French citizen, therefore cannot deport, also insufficient evidence therefore cannot imprison.

Quote from: Valmy on July 26, 2016, 10:31:40 AM
I am amazed they would kill a Priest. Even beheaded him Saint Denis style. Churches have not been a target of these sorts of attacks before, at least not in the West. Obviously the Eastern churches get pounded all the time.

That's IS for you. They make AQ look like hippies.

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 26, 2016, 11:50:56 AM
That's IS for you. They make AQ look like hippies.

AQ still pays a least some lip service to Islam (the actual religion).
IS are just tribalist degenerates using Islam as brand.  Hence their welcome of all the murderous pork-eating alcoholics who pledge allegiance.

Quote from: viper37 on July 26, 2016, 10:12:39 AM

why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

I don't think anywhere in the West deports "suspects".

Usually, they have to be convicted of something before any steps are taken against them. Even then, if they are citizens, you can't deport them - you jail them if they are guilty.

Quote from: viper37 on July 26, 2016, 10:12:39 AM
why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

He was suspected of trying to go to Syria to fight for ISIS.  He can't be deported from France to France (he's French).  Presumably, the law does not yet allow for the imprisonment of people who the authorities suspect of trying to go to Syria, or else he was on bail awaiting some sort of process.

Clearly, though, the monitoring didn't go far enough.  He was on a monitoring bracelet, but the court allowed him mornings off to plot and carry out terrorism.  He had to be home by 1230, though.

Quote from: grumbler on July 26, 2016, 01:03:24 PM

Quote from: viper37 on July 26, 2016, 10:12:39 AM
why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

He was suspected of trying to go to Syria to fight for ISIS.  He can't be deported from France to France (he's French).  Presumably, the law does not yet allow for the imprisonment of people who the authorities suspect of trying to go to Syria, or else he was on bail awaiting some sort of process.

Clearly, though, the monitoring didn't go far enough.  He was on a monitoring bracelet, but the court allowed him mornings off to plot and carry out terrorism.  He had to be home by 1230, though.

That is early.

"You can stay out long enough for the Crusades, but I want you back home before the Mongols get to Baghdad."

One of the assailants has been formally identified

QuoteCet homme, connu des services antiterroristes, avait tenté de rallier la Syrie par deux fois en 2015. Il avait été mis en examen pour association de malfaiteurs en lien avec une entreprise terroriste et placé en détention provisoire, puis libéré sous bracelet électronique.

Known from French counter-terrorist services, tried to go to Syria twice in 2015, accused of criminal association (conspiracy) in relation with a terrorist enterprise, then put into provisional custody. For some reason, later on electronic home arrest.  :hmm: There seems to be a pattern involving laxism and bleeding hearts.

They should have let him go to Syria. Kept an eye on him, seen who is hanging with over there. Mentioned it to their Uncle Sam, who could have a drone pay them a visit and solve a bunch of problems at once.

Quote from: Malthus on July 26, 2016, 12:59:20 PM

Quote from: viper37 on July 26, 2016, 10:12:39 AM

why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

I don't think anywhere in the West deports "suspects".

Usually, they have to be convicted of something before any steps are taken against them. Even then, if they are citizens, you can't deport them - you jail them if they are guilty.

he is a refugee, not a citizen.  He applies for citizenship, he is refused citizenship.  Why keep him in France, given the accusation of terrorism?

ok, French citizen, I missed that part.

Quote from: grumbler on July 26, 2016, 01:03:24 PM

Quote from: viper37 on July 26, 2016, 10:12:39 AM
why was he freed if he was a suspect of terrorism?  why not deported?

He was suspected of trying to go to Syria to fight for ISIS.  He can't be deported from France to France (he's French).  Presumably, the law does not yet allow for the imprisonment of people who the authorities suspect of trying to go to Syria, or else he was on bail awaiting some sort of process.

Clearly, though, the monitoring didn't go far enough.  He was on a monitoring bracelet, but the court allowed him mornings off to plot and carry out terrorism.  He had to be home by 1230, though.

ah, I thought he was a refugee.  I did not read he was a French citizen.  That explains it, then.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 26, 2016, 11:50:56 AM
That's IS for you. They make AQ look like hippies.

AQ still pays a least some lip service to Islam (the actual religion).
IS are just tribalist degenerates using Islam as brand.  Hence their welcome of all the murderous pork-eating alcoholics who pledge allegiance.

They are different organizations and who they attract are different.  This is No True Scotsman garbage. Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity.  The great Sufis were alcoholics and pedaphiles.  The fact that sinning can lead to guilt which informs faith should not be new information, nor should the fact that Islamic fanaticism around the periphery of the Islamic world is the norm rather than the exception.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
They are different organizations and who they attract are different.  This is No True Scotsman garbage. Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity.  The great Sufis were alcoholics and pedaphiles.  The fact that sinning can lead to guilt which informs faith should not be new information, nor should the fact that Islamic fanaticism around the periphery of the Islamic world is the norm rather than the exception.

I have no idea what (if anything) you are trying to argue here, but I would note that Islamic fanaticism isn't found at the periphery of Islam, but at its heart.  Mecca is located in a country that executes gays, stones rape victims, and chops off the hands of thieves.

Er, not being nice isn't true Islam.

Quote from: The Brain on July 26, 2016, 03:28:24 PM
Er, not being nice isn't true Islam.

Exactly, Islam has nothing to do with Islam.  :contract:

Quote from: grumbler on July 26, 2016, 03:25:49 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
They are different organizations and who they attract are different.  This is No True Scotsman garbage. Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity.  The great Sufis were alcoholics and pedaphiles.  The fact that sinning can lead to guilt which informs faith should not be new information, nor should the fact that Islamic fanaticism around the periphery of the Islamic world is the norm rather than the exception.

I have no idea what (if anything) you are trying to argue here, but I would note that Islamic fanaticism isn't found at the periphery of Islam, but at its heart.  Mecca is located in a country that executes gays, stones rape victims, and chops off the hands of thieves.

Boko Haram, Sudan, Chechnya, Mindanao, the Berbers in Mali, Pakistan.....I'd argue that it's simultaneusly strongest in the center and the periphery.  You can get away with being a lax Muslim in, say, Algeria, but in Northern Nigeria or Chechnya you really can't.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity. 

And Serbs and Greeks would do much the same to Albanians and Bosniaks, as well as to each other.  So what's your point?  Islam is a belief system.   Being Scottish isn't a belief system one joins voluntarily by pinching pennies and eating revolting sheep gizzards.

I think it's pertinent to point out that IS attracts the "allegiance" (sometimes ex post) of a significant number of people with no discernible religious background or inclinations and that it advocates conduct contrary to the Quran or any known Sunni sharia school.  At least if you believe that one should understand a phenomenon if one wants to combat it effectively.  As opposed to grind some political axe.

Quote from: Legbiter on July 26, 2016, 03:35:52 PM

Quote from: The Brain on July 26, 2016, 03:28:24 PM
Er, not being nice isn't true Islam.

Exactly, Islam has nothing to do with Islam.  :contract:

Smells like straw around here.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:47:01 PM
Boko Haram, Sudan, Chechnya, Mindanao, the Berbers in Mali, Pakistan.....I'd argue that it's simultaneusly strongest in the center and the periphery. 

Yes and also in between: Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Libya, Tunisia, Pakistan (not periphery . . .)
So it is strongest everywhere and weakest everywhere. 

The fact that ex-baathists appear to be in key positions of authority in Daesh is also revealing.

Quote from: grumbler on July 26, 2016, 03:47:37 PMSmells like straw around here.

Just bantering with the Brain. Not aimed at anyone.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity. 

And Serbs and Greeks would do much the same to Albanians and Bosniaks, as well as to each other.  So what's your point?  Islam is a belief system.   Being Scottish isn't a belief system one joins voluntarily by pinching pennies and eating revolting sheep gizzards.

I think it's pertinent to point out that IS attracts the "allegiance" (sometimes ex post) of a significant number of people with no discernible religious background or inclinations and that it advocates conduct contrary to the Quran or any known Sunni sharia school.  At least if you believe that one should understand a phenomenon if one wants to combat it effectively.  As opposed to grind some political axe.

Serbs would eat pork to Albanians? How does that even work?

Quote from: The Brain on July 26, 2016, 04:20:15 PM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity. 

And Serbs and Greeks would do much the same to Albanians and Bosniaks, as well as to each other.  So what's your point?  Islam is a belief system.   Being Scottish isn't a belief system one joins voluntarily by pinching pennies and eating revolting sheep gizzards.

I think it's pertinent to point out that IS attracts the "allegiance" (sometimes ex post) of a significant number of people with no discernible religious background or inclinations and that it advocates conduct contrary to the Quran or any known Sunni sharia school.  At least if you believe that one should understand a phenomenon if one wants to combat it effectively.  As opposed to grind some political axe.

Serbs would eat pork to Albanians? How does that even work?

"Long pig".

I have a solution to this. A final solution.

One other thought is how weird is it to attack a Church at a Tuesday mass? I may be generalising but that is literally a service only for nuns and legionaries of Mary :blink:

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
One other thought is how weird is it to attack a Church at a Tuesday mass? I may be generalising but that is literally a service only for nuns and legionaries of Mary :blink:

Well, it's possible that who the attackers wanted to target.  It's also possible that they can't read a calendar properly and didn't know what day it was. 

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
One other thought is how weird is it to attack a Church at a Tuesday mass?

Same reason the 9/11 hijackers did what they did on a Tuesday.  Slow day, manageable crowds.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
Albanians and Bosniaks would eat pork and drink rakija and crucify Serbian or Greek rebels whenever they got uppity. 

And Serbs and Greeks would do much the same to Albanians and Bosniaks, as well as to each other.  So what's your point?  Islam is a belief system.   Being Scottish isn't a belief system one joins voluntarily by pinching pennies and eating revolting sheep gizzards.  Sufi mystics were heterodox and you'd occasionally find almost pagan beliefs among the various ghulams.

I think it's pertinent to point out that IS attracts the "allegiance" (sometimes ex post) of a significant number of people with no discernible religious background or inclinations and that it advocates conduct contrary to the Quran or any known Sunni sharia school.  At least if you believe that one should understand a phenomenon if one wants to combat it effectively.  As opposed to grind some political axe.

Extreme and violent behavior and violation of dietary restrictions does not always preclude involvement in wars that are framed in a religious context and heterodoxy of warriors of the faith in Islam is not unheard of.

I think it's probably fair that ISIS has broken from traditional Sunni Islam in a way that Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra have not.  But, honestly, so?  Non-Trinitarian Christians came out of the Reformation and we still call them Christians.  Today we have thousands of Christian denomenations that ignorantly call themselves "non-denomenational" and based on interpretations of the Biblical text completely divergent from the 2,000 history of exegesis.    ISIS is comparable.

All the way back to Mohammed and the Khawarij and Almohads and Almoravids and Fatmids and Safavids the trend of a "puritanical desert sect that develops a unique interpretation of the Islamic text expands rapidly by conquest and slavery" has been......the norm. Granted, it hasn't happened as often since the emergence of the House of Saud, thinking of ISIS as uniquely divergent from Islamic history strikes me as bizarre.  The Ummayad Caliphs were frequently perverts and alcoholics. They still conquered the largest empire in history in the name of Islam. 

Also, I just suspect that you're wrong.  I doubt very seriously that the average ISIS fighter eats pork or drinks liquor on a regular basis.  The fact that some Chechen fighters don't know how many times a day they're supposed to make namas does not magically absolve Islam from this horrible shame.

I was reflecting on everything today and I came to the acceptance that the West will fall. Islam will take over the world and in the future when there is first contact they will be the ones that meet with the aliens.

We always thought it'd be like Star Trek, but it turns out the ambassadors of humanity will be one of the asshole alien races that threw shade at Luke Skywalker in Mos Eisley. We won't be the protagonists afterall.

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
One other thought is how weird is it to attack a Church at a Tuesday mass? I may be generalising but that is literally a service only for nuns and legionaries of Mary :blink:

Specially in a Rouen banlieue where there are not many Christians to begin with.

The Muslim council of Britain has a fine sense of priorities :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36900310

Quote from: dps on July 26, 2016, 06:27:28 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
One other thought is how weird is it to attack a Church at a Tuesday mass? I may be generalising but that is literally a service only for nuns and legionaries of Mary :blink:

Well, it's possible that who the attackers wanted to target.  It's also possible that they can't read a calendar properly and didn't know what day it was.

I'd always assume they'd want as many people for most impact

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM
  Islam is a belief system. 

It's just as much, if not more, a political ideology.
One without which the world would be a far better place.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 27, 2016, 02:59:31 AM


It's just as much, if not more, a political ideology.
One without which the world would be a far better place.

Was it Cameron that said we should simply get used to it?  So get used to it because nothing will be done to prevent it.  This will go on until the Muslim filth has become the majority in Europe - at which point they'll simply get rid of what's left of you people.  Submit or die, with the smug complacency of the Left. <_<



G.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 27, 2016, 02:59:31 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM
  Islam is a belief system. 

It's just as much, if not more, a political ideology.
One without which the world would be a far better place.

So, the same as Christianity?  I'd say the world would be a better place without all of the political ideologies based around magical thinking.

Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2016, 11:14:14 AM

So, the same as Christianity?  I'd say the world would be a better place without all of the political ideologies based around magical thinking.

But then the SPD would have free reign in Germany. :(

But seriously what is the political ideology of Christianity?

Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2016, 11:14:14 AM

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 27, 2016, 02:59:31 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 26, 2016, 03:47:27 PM
  Islam is a belief system. 

It's just as much, if not more, a political ideology.
One without which the world would be a far better place.

So, the same as Christianity?  I'd say the world would be a better place without all of the political ideologies based around magical thinking.

So, all of them?

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 11:15:56 AM
But then the SPD would have free reign in Germany. :(

Germany had conservative parties besides the more Christian parties like Zentrum or CDU/CSU.

QuoteBut seriously what is the political ideology of Christianity?

Political christianity is defined by Church dogma, which outlines certain policies, such as the Christian duty for social welfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_novarum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_et_Magistra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadragesimo_anno

Christian morals also play a major role in setting the political ideology of Christian parties, e.g. support for traditional families, opposition against gay rights or abortion.

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 11:15:56 AM
But seriously what is the political ideology of Christianity?

I'd say the two key elements are traditional social values (on marriage, abortion, etc) combined with a strong value attached to individual freedoms balanced by individual responsibilities.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 26, 2016, 08:14:35 PM
I think it's probably fair that ISIS has broken from traditional Sunni Islam in a way that Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra have not.  But, honestly, so?  Non-Trinitarian Christians came out of the Reformation and we still call them Christians.  Today we have thousands of Christian denomenations that ignorantly call themselves "non-denomenational" and based on interpretations of the Biblical text completely divergent from the 2,000 history of exegesis.    ISIS is comparable.

I don't think it is.  What distinguishes Daesh from other, Islamic-oriented movements, is not heterodoxy.  They aren't advocating an alternative version of Islam.  They are not neo-Shi'ites or ultra-violent Bahai.  They are simply ignoring the variant of Islam they claim adherence to.  And it appears that they may be doing it because at its core it is not an Islamic movement at all.  It is a heterogeneous collection of "outs" the militarized core of which is secularized ex-Baathists who (much like Saddam) view Islam as nothing more than an convenient propaganda tool. 

Does this matter?  One could argue that it doesn't and that their actions speak for themselves.  But to the extent people think it does matter that we identify and understand the enemy and "tell it as it is" then yes such distinctions are pertinent.

QuoteAll the way back to Mohammed and the Khawarij and Almohads and Almoravids and Fatmids and Safavids the trend of a "puritanical desert sect that develops a unique interpretation of the Islamic text expands rapidly by conquest and slavery" has been......the norm.

I don't know what this means.  Muhammed wasn't "puritanical" nor were most of the movements to the extent I am familiar.  The Almoravids and Alhomads were garden variety Sunnis in terms of doctrine.  The Fatimids were typical Shi'a as were the Safavids by the time they rose to power.  And virtually every new kingdom and empire for thousands of years rose through conquest and slavery, except in medieval western Europe where it was enserfment rather than slavery. 

QuoteI doubt very seriously that the average ISIS fighter eats pork or drinks liquor on a regular basis. 

I don't eat pork either.  That's not the point.  The point is that the eagerness with which the organization embraces people who obviously have no religious commitment whatsoever is symptomatic - what really defines identity is the willingness to engage in violence which is the end in itself. 

Did you know the first night of Channunchucks is on Christmas Eve this year?

:angry: How dare they?

Was serfdom really that unique to Euroland? Didn't they have something similar in China/Japan/India?

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 02:32:38 PM
Was serfdom really that unique to Euroland? Didn't they have something similar in China/Japan/India?

Yes but various forms of slavery also existed in China and India. 

It is also worth pointing out that "slavery" didn't necessarily have exactly the connotations in Islam as it does in modern times - being a Mamluk meant being a slave all right, but then, it also could mean being a member of the ruling military caste. Complaining that Muslim societies ran on "slavery" is like complaining that Japanese society abused the domestic help because Samurai means something like "servant".  ;)

Not to say Islam didn't have "slaves" who were truly miserable, of course.

Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 03:00:43 PM
It is also worth pointing out that "slavery" didn't necessarily have exactly the connotations in Islam as it does in modern times - being a Mamluk meant being a slave all right, but then, it also could mean being a member of the ruling military caste. Complaining that Muslim societies ran on "slavery" is like complaining that Japanese society abused the domestic help because Samurai means something like "servant".  ;)

Not to say Islam didn't have "slaves" who were truly miserable, of course.

Well they had "slaves" and then they had slaves. The "slaves" existed because the Arabs made the spectacularly bad choice, for them anyway, of using slaves as soldiers.

Most civilians captured and sold in Muslim slave markets weren't headed to the ruling caste.

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 03:11:34 PM

Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 03:00:43 PM
It is also worth pointing out that "slavery" didn't necessarily have exactly the connotations in Islam as it does in modern times - being a Mamluk meant being a slave all right, but then, it also could mean being a member of the ruling military caste. Complaining that Muslim societies ran on "slavery" is like complaining that Japanese society abused the domestic help because Samurai means something like "servant".  ;)

Not to say Islam didn't have "slaves" who were truly miserable, of course.

Well they had "slaves" and then they had slaves. The "slaves" existed because the Arabs made the spectacularly bad choice, for them anyway, of using slaves as soldiers.

Most civilians captured and sold in Muslim slave markets weren't headed to the ruling caste.

Of course. But then, people on both the Christian and Muslim sides of the Med. captured slaves from the other - in battles like Lepanto, each side's fleet was largely rowed by slaves at least in part taken from the other side!

It was the use of slave-soldiers that really set Islamic nations apart, not the use of slaves per se.

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 03:11:34 PM

Most civilians captured and sold in Muslim slave markets weren't headed to the ruling caste.

The smoking hot young women were. :P

Quote from: alfred russel on July 27, 2016, 03:34:27 PM

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 03:11:34 PM

Most civilians captured and sold in Muslim slave markets weren't headed to the ruling caste.

The smoking hot young women were. :P

Among the Turks - some of the cute young boys, too.  :grallon:

Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 03:19:17 PM
Of course. But then, people on both the Christian and Muslim sides of the Med. captured slaves from the other - in battles like Lepanto, each side's fleet was largely rowed by slaves at least in part taken from the other side!

It was the use of slave-soldiers that really set Islamic nations apart, not the use of slaves per se.

I would say that slavery in the Islamic nations was exactly what it says on the tin the vast majority of the time. They were slaves. And modern connotations of slavery absolutely applied.

There were rather spectacular exceptions, of course, thanks to said really bad Arab idea.

Quote from: alfred russel on July 27, 2016, 03:34:27 PM

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 03:11:34 PM

Most civilians captured and sold in Muslim slave markets weren't headed to the ruling caste.

The smoking hot young women were. :P

And even some not so smoking hot ones. Getting to bang your slaves was one of the big draws.

Quote from: Valmy on July 27, 2016, 03:48:38 PM

Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 03:19:17 PM
Of course. But then, people on both the Christian and Muslim sides of the Med. captured slaves from the other - in battles like Lepanto, each side's fleet was largely rowed by slaves at least in part taken from the other side!

It was the use of slave-soldiers that really set Islamic nations apart, not the use of slaves per se.

I would say that slavery in the Islamic nations was exactly what it says on the tin the vast majority of the time. They were slaves. And modern connotations of slavery absolutely applied.

There were rather spectacular exceptions, of course, thanks to said really bad Arab idea.

Sure. What I'm saying us that the same applied to slavery in the Christian world. Islam and Christianity were alike in having slavery that sucked horribly.

Where they differed, is that the Islamic world *also* had this other form of slavery that did *not* exist in the Christian world. To my knowledge, no Christian kingdom had its warrior aristocracy composed of slaves.

Quote from: Zanza on July 27, 2016, 11:53:35 AM
Political christianity is defined by Church dogma, which outlines certain policies, such as the Christian duty for social welfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_novarum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_et_Magistra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadragesimo_anno

Christian morals also play a major role in setting the political ideology of Christian parties, e.g. support for traditional families, opposition against gay rights or abortion.

Yeah. I think the defining characteristic of Christian 'ideology' in the twentieth century is a political humanism. But that's just the last century.

Prior to Rerum Novarum the ideology of most of Christianity was reactionary politics. Absolute or very strong monarchies, opposition to democratic forces, disapproval of fake idols like 'class', 'nation' or 'race', privileges for the established Church and education controlled by it to the exclusion of outsiders. Obviously it's different for dissenting Churches but they were very much the minority and the established Church whether Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox tended to be pretty staunchly reactionary until the turn of the twentieth century.

Quote from: derspiess on July 27, 2016, 02:30:35 PM
:angry: How dare they?

I think it's wonderful.  :wub:  :pope: :Joos

Fascinating stat from Bookings, biggest predictor/correlation to number of foreign fighters joining ISIS of a country's Muslim population: French as an official language.

Seems a bit of a "no shit Sherlock" stat given how many North African countries have French as official language.

Yeah but they're the highest in MENA and France and Belgium the highest in Europe. Of the 5 largest relative numbers of foreign fighters, 4 are Francophone.

It's striking that it's more predictive than demographic factors or things like unemployment or urbanisation (which both also correlate).

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 27, 2016, 02:05:14 AM
The Muslim council of Britain has a fine sense of priorities :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36900310

I srsly hope they also bothered complaining and tweeting about these recent attacks.

Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 03:57:14 PM
Sure. What I'm saying us that the same applied to slavery in the Christian world. Islam and Christianity were alike in having slavery that sucked horribly.

Where they differed, is that the Islamic world *also* had this other form of slavery that did *not* exist in the Christian world. To my knowledge, no Christian kingdom had its warrior aristocracy composed of slaves.

Yeah but that other form of slavery was a bug and not a feature. :P

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 28, 2016, 07:20:04 AM
Yeah but they're the highest in MENA and France and Belgium the highest in Europe. Of the 5 largest relative numbers of foreign fighters, 4 are Francophone.

It's striking that it's more predictive than demographic factors or things like unemployment or urbanisation (which both also correlate).

Seems Flemish nationalists are right in fighting the francophones if only the rest of the world would join them and not be sidetracked by this Islam thingy ;) :lol:

Quote from: Sheilbh on July 28, 2016, 07:20:04 AM
Yeah but they're the highest in MENA and France and Belgium the highest in Europe. Of the 5 largest relative numbers of foreign fighters, 4 are Francophone.

When you hear them speaking, they do not sound like native Francophone speakers, despite being born and having lived in France or francophone Belgium. Besides, Belgium also has its jihadi "Flemish" nutcases cf. Sharia4Belgium.

I'm now awaiting statements of IRA and ETA.

QuoteCorsican militants warn 'Islamist radicals' over attacks
A militant splinter group on the French island of Corsica has warned Islamist extremists that they would respond to any attack that took place on the island.

In a statement sent to Corsica's newspaper Corse Matin the group FLNC October 22, a splinter group from the main separatist group the National Liberation Front of Corsica (FLNC), said any attack would trigger "a determined response without any qualms".

The splinter group also warned the French government that "if a tragedy were to happen it would bare substantial share of responsibility because it knows who the radicals Islamists are in Corsica."

"The aim of the Salafists is clearly to install Isis policies here and we are prepared for it," the group said.

The militants, which have been involved in bombings and organised crime over the years, also stated that they had foiled a terrorist attack on the island back in June, that was planned to have been carried out in a public place.

The French government, which has revealed details of several foiled plots in the past, has never mentioned any thwarted plan to attack the Mediterranean Island.

The October 22 splinter group announced in May this year it would bring an end to its 40-year armed struggle, two years after the main FLNC group vowed to do the same.

The statement from the FLNC-October 22 comes as tensions between communities on the island have mounted in recent months.

In April this year a Muslim prayer hall was burned to the ground just months after the island was rocked by anti-Arab riots over Christmas.

Protests erupted on the Mediterranean island over Christmas after firefighters and police called to a low-income immigrant neighbourhood were ambushed and attacked.

Demonstrators shouting slogans such as "This is our home!" and "Arabs get out", vandalised a prayer hall and set fire to books including copies of the Koran.

The attack on the prayer hall prompted French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve to express his "solidarity with the Muslims of Corsica".

While the FLNC-October 22 warned radicals that "your medieval philosophy does not frighten us", the group also called on all "Muslims of Corsica" to take a stand and denounce radical Islam and report anyone who might be drifting towards radicalization.

"If Islamic State carries out actions on our soil, we can only win together."

The group also urged "calm in the face of barbarity" and stressed that it's group was not a refuge for those seeking a racial or xenophobic fight.

The warning from the militants comes after several politicians and even the chief of France's internal security agency expressed concerns about the threat of a kind of civil war in France.

Patrick Calvar from the DGSI, told a parliamentary inquiry that there was evidence that right wing groups had been gathering arms to carry out their own attacks.

Calvar predicted "a confrontation between the extreme right and the Muslim world".

"Where is the spark going to come from that will light the powder, transforming France into an uncontrollable country where groups take up arms and hand out their own justice?"

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160728/corsican-militants-threaten-to-hit-back-against-islamist-radicals (http://www.thelocal.fr/20160728/corsican-militants-threaten-to-hit-back-against-islamist-radicals)

https://www.rt.com/news/354010-normandy-church-attack-account/

QuoteAfter slitting priest's throat, France church attackers smiled & talked peace and God – witnesses

Two nuns, who were taken hostage by two jihadists in a Normandy church on Tuesday, gave accounts of their ordeals. They said one of the attackers smiled happily after slitting Father Jacques Hamel's throat and a bizarre theological dispute followed the crime.
Abdel Malik Petitjean and Adel Kermiche, both 19, were killed by French police as they tried to flee the 17th century Catholic church in the town of Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray in the north of France just after killing its priest and seriously injuring an elderly parishioner.

Sister Huguette Peron and Sister Helene Decaux, both in their early 80s, were among the people taken hostage by the attackers, who pledged allegiance to the terrorist group Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL). Two days after the attack the still shocked women talked to the Catholic newspaper La Vie, which published their interview on Friday.

READ MORE: ISIS hostage takers kill 84yo priest at French church, reportedly slitting his throat

Sister Huguette said both attackers were obviously nervous and aggressive, but killing Father Jacques seemed to please one of them.

"I got a smile from the second (man). Not a smile of triumph, but a soft smile, that of someone who is happy," she told the newspaper.

The men then had a conversation about religion with their female hostages. One asked Sister Helene if she was familiar with the Quran.

"Yes, I respect it like I respect the Bible, I've read several suras. And those that hit me in particular are the suras about peace," she responded.

One of the attackers was apparently touched and replied: "Peace, it's what we want. When you talk to the television, tell the authorities that as long as there are bombs on Syria, we will continue our attacks. And they will happen every day. When you stop, we will stop."

France is part of the US-led coalition, which is trying to undermine IS in Syria and Iraq through a bombing campaign and supporting some of the local forces opposing the organization.

Later, one of the attackers tried to convince sister Huguette that Jesus could not be both a man and God.

"It is you who are wrong," he said.

"Maybe, but too bad," she replied, not wishing to argue and expecting that she might be killed.

As the police arrived, the two attackers wanted to use the women as human shields and escape. However they didn't quiet manage to cover themselves behind them, allowing police snipers to take them down, the nuns told the newspaper.

The church attack is the latest in a string of IS-organized or inspired acts of terrorism, which have been shaking France since 2015. Amid continued security failures, France is considering banning foreign sponsorship of mosques, Prime Minister Manuel Valls announced on Friday.

The belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

His (PBUH) followers are blind. Too much heaven on their minds.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 02:40:44 AMThe belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

You can't do this. The need for a transcendental (any type of religious, spiritual, mystical etc.) experience is deeply wired in our psyches and, according to the Maslov's theory, it cannot be ignored without a significant detriment to one's psychological health (there are individuals who lack this need, at least ostensibly, but they are in a great minority and one cannot build a society around such minority).

Post-Englightenment freethinkers and atheists made a mistake of thinking otherwise - by trying to expunge spirituality from the society, they weakened the more functional and openminded forms of it, and by extension strengthened the more rigid and intolerant strains, that are harder to eradicate.

What the world needs is some sort of spiritual revival through re-animation of those good and peaceful strains (perhaps in some sort of a reformed form, updated to modern times) and not a total war against religion - because we will lose such war.

On this basis, I have also reconsidered my attitude towards Islam during my ban period - I don't think any more we should strive to eradicate Islam as a whole - it won't work. We should work to eradicate the more corrosive sects of it, such as Wahhabism and Salafism, but at the same time work to promote and strengthen sects and schools of thoughts such as Sufism and Alawism - to give people an alternative.

Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 04:21:55 AM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 02:40:44 AMThe belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

You can't do this. The need for a transcendental (any type of religious, spiritual, mystical etc.) experience is deeply wired in our psyches and, according to the Maslov's theory, it cannot be ignored without a significant detriment to one's psychological health (there are individuals who lack this need, at least ostensibly, but they are in a great minority and one cannot build a society around such minority).

This is why I said "literal paradise".

For spirituality without religious myths, try this: https://www.samharris.org/waking-up

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 04:24:52 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 04:21:55 AM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 02:40:44 AMThe belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

You can't do this. The need for a transcendental (any type of religious, spiritual, mystical etc.) experience is deeply wired in our psyches and, according to the Maslov's theory, it cannot be ignored without a significant detriment to one's psychological health (there are individuals who lack this need, at least ostensibly, but they are in a great minority and one cannot build a society around such minority).

This is why I said "literal paradise".

For spirituality without religious myths, try this: https://www.samharris.org/waking-up

Yup. I really like Sam Harris - have you seen his interview with David Rubin? He actually makes a very interesting point there, which is consistent with what you just said, that most of the jihadists are not depressed losers - they are actually people who are euphoric and happy. The key is to start offering people the same kind of experience through spiritual systems that are not murderous.

Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 04:30:28 AM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 04:24:52 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 04:21:55 AM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 02:40:44 AMThe belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

You can't do this. The need for a transcendental (any type of religious, spiritual, mystical etc.) experience is deeply wired in our psyches and, according to the Maslov's theory, it cannot be ignored without a significant detriment to one's psychological health (there are individuals who lack this need, at least ostensibly, but they are in a great minority and one cannot build a society around such minority).

This is why I said "literal paradise".

For spirituality without religious myths, try this: https://www.samharris.org/waking-up

Yup. I really like Sam Harris - have you seen his interview with David Rubin? He actually makes a very interesting point there, which is consistent with what you just said, that most of the jihadists are not depressed losers - they are actually people who are euphoric and happy. The key is to start offering people the same kind of experience through spiritual systems that are not murderous.

I don't think we disagree, at all!

Indeed! One additional point I would make is that, again, while there is a minority of people who want to experiment and look for new things when it comes to spirituality, many more are rather traditional (I don't want to say "lazy"). For their sake, you also need to offer options that are (or at least seem to be) traditional. So for Muslims, you can promote the aforementioned Sufism and Alawism, for Christians Unitarism etc. (although truth be told, most Christian sects in the West these days are pretty harmless and peaceful anyway). Sometimes you have to work with what you have. ;)

Agreed, but all of this is wishful thinking as long as the heart of darkness that is Saudi Arabia remains and we (Western civilization) does not tackle their poisonous ideology in own own backyards.

Agreed again. Not that it's likely to change under Clinton (not that I am expecting Trump to be much different).

Get a room.

Quote from: The Brain on July 31, 2016, 06:57:22 AM
Get a room.

Hey at least they make it easy to scroll past their nonsense.

Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2016, 07:28:16 AM

Quote from: The Brain on July 31, 2016, 06:57:22 AM
Get a room.

Hey at least they make it easy to scroll past their nonsense.

Go choke on a Deleuze commentary compilation.

QuoteI don't think it is.  What distinguishes Daesh from other, Islamic-oriented movements, is not heterodoxy.  They aren't advocating an alternative version of Islam.  They are not neo-Shi'ites or ultra-violent Bahai.  They are simply ignoring the variant of Islam they claim adherence to.  And it appears that they may be doing it because at its core it is not an Islamic movement at all.  It is a heterogeneous collection of "outs" the militarized core of which is secularized ex-Baathists who (much like Saddam) view Islam as nothing more than an convenient propaganda tool. 

I don't think the facts back this up.  They use the Black Flag, have gone out of their way to adopt Abbasid and Rashidun symbols...it's a slightly innovative outgrowth of Wahhabism, surely, but it's still there.  They aren't Mormons.  There's no new scripture.  There's not even any claims that a religious leader is the Mahdi or an Imam come out of occultation.

QuoteDoes this matter?  One could argue that it doesn't and that their actions speak for themselves.  But to the extent people think it does matter that we identify and understand the enemy and "tell it as it is" then yes such distinctions are pertinent.

Yes.

Islamic civilization is collapsing.   Work needs to be done.   After 1945 we had the Frankfurt School and Hannah Arendt.  For the collapse of the Islamic world we have a bunch of smart people repeating the same bullshit "ISIS isn't Islam" nostrum, which just feeds in to the same intellectual stagnation that has us treating Said and other Postcolonial thinkers as gospel 50 years after their works were written and now feeds the idiocy, self-pity and conspiratorial nonsense that fuels the collapse.

QuoteI don't know what this means.

I'm a bit confused that you are confused.  I'd noticed this trend before, but this cycle was clearly articulated in W3710 History of Iran to the Safavid Period by Richard Bulleit on iTunes U, which I seem to remember you linking me to. 

QuoteMuhammed wasn't "puritanical"

How are we defining that?  He destroyed icons and statues of Pagan gods and focused on war and equality. 

QuoteThe Almoravids and Alhomads were garden variety Sunnis

No?  .  They both began as religious reform movements.  Ibn Tumart was a fanatic and Catholic Monarchs style mass expulsions were pretty normal.  Maimonidies?  What's the argument here? Am I missing something?

QuoteThe Fatimids were typical Shi'a as were the Safavids by the time they rose to power.

I don't know much about the Fatmids but the Safavids weren't.  People thought Ismail was the Mahdi or a new Prophet and the Kizilbash were 1/3rd Tengrist 1/3rd Christian 1/3rd Sufi fanatics.  He came out of one of the most diverse, weird regions in the entire Islamic world, and escoteric, mystical, Ali-revering Turkmens across Azerbiajan and Anatolia were extremely sympathetic to him.  From what I've read I don't think there even was a coherent conservative Twelver Shi'ism during the time of Ismail.

QuoteAnd virtually every new kingdom and empire for thousands of years rose through conquest and slavery, except in medieval western Europe where it was enserfment rather than slavery.

Again I don't think this is accurate.  By the time of the Ottoman Conquests, at least within Europe dynastic politics were probably more important than the kind of slaughter and destruction that the Ottomans wrought in the Balkans.  I don't think the Hapsburgs and Valois took millions of captive Netherlanders when Charles the Bold died, ditto the unions that brought about the UK, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and modern Spain. You could argue that this made possible by the violence and slavery in the New World but that's a simplification. 

Quote
I don't eat pork either.  That's not the point.  The point is that the eagerness with which the organization embraces people who obviously have no religious commitment whatsoever is symptomatic - what really defines identity is the willingness to engage in violence which is the end in itself.

It was always there.  In the Byzantine commentaries on the early Muslims the largest theological difference mentioned is the Islamic belief that death in battle is heroic and equivalent to Christian martyrdom.  We're 100 years out from the simultaneous Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek genocides.  Colonialism and Arab Nationalism were intermissions.

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 04:24:52 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 04:21:55 AM

Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 02:40:44 AMThe belief in a literal paradise is so corrosive, so dangerous that it must be made unacceptable in modern civilized society.

You can't do this. The need for a transcendental (any type of religious, spiritual, mystical etc.) experience is deeply wired in our psyches and, according to the Maslov's theory, it cannot be ignored without a significant detriment to one's psychological health (there are individuals who lack this need, at least ostensibly, but they are in a great minority and one cannot build a society around such minority).

This is why I said "literal paradise".

For spirituality without religious myths, try this: https://www.samharris.org/waking-up (https://www.samharris.org/waking-up)

Ah Sam Harris, fringe theorist, potential murderer and supporter of torture.