I would hope the government is expemt from this law, otherwise emergency management is going to take a hit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/work-emails-france-labor-law_us_57455130e4b03ede4413515a
Quote
Weekend Work Emails Are Now Illegal In France
"The right to disconnect" has been codified in law.
05/25/2016 05:57 am ET | Updated 5 hours ago
Dominique Mosbergen
Senior Writer, The Huffington Post
Checking your work email on a weekend or a holiday? In France, where employees have been granted "the right to disconnect," that's now against the law.
Buried inside a recently enacted — and hotly contested — French labor reform bill is an amendment banning companies of 50 or more employees from sending emails after typical work hours. "The right to disconnect" amendment, as it's so called, is aimed at minimizing the negative impacts of being excessively plugged in.
"All the studies show there is far more work-related stress today than there used to be, and that the stress is constant," Benoit Hamon of the French National Assembly told the BBC earlier this month. "Employees physically leave the office, but they do not leave their work. They remain attached by a kind of electronic leash— like a dog. The texts, the messages, the emails — they colonize the life of the individual to the point where he or she eventually breaks down."
Work-related burnout appears to be a growing concern for the French government. In February, French Health Minister Marisol Touraine formed a working group in an effort to define and treat work-related exhaustion. According to an April article in the French daily Les Échos, about 1 in 10 of the nation's workforce is at a high risk of job-related burnout.
Under the new law, companies are mandated to negotiate formal policies to limit the spillover of work, specifically as it's related to "digital technology," into the private lives of employees. This, according to the BBC, will involve companies establishing "charters of good conduct" specifying hours, typically in the evenings and weekends, when employees aren't supposed to send or receive email.
"The development of information and communication technologies, if badly managed or regulated, can have an impact on the health of workers," Article 25 of the bill reads. "Among them, the burden of work and the informational overburden, the blurring of the borders between private life and professional life, are risks associated with the usage of digital technology."
Some have lauded this clause as a win in the battle against over-connectedness.
"The right to disconnect isn't necessarily an obligation ... but it's an opportunity — to claim a little breathing room; to realize that the world won't stop turning, or even producing words or widgets, without one person's constant vigilance," wrote The New Yorker's Lauren Collins this week.
Others, though, have warned that the law doesn't go far enough.
Jon Whittle, a researcher at Digital Brain Switch, a U.K. project looking at the impacts of digital technology on work-life balance, told The Washington Post that some employees may feel even more overwhelmed at the thought of returning, in the morning or post-vacation, to a deluge of emails.
"I think the topic of work-related well-being is much larger than simply stopping email after-hours," Whittle said. "Email is just a medium used to communicate. The real problem is the culture of having to constantly do more and constantly do better than competitors."
Even advocates of the bill, such as Hamon, the national education minister, have admitted that the law has its limits. There is currently no penalty for violating the law and companies are expected to voluntarily adhere to it.
Still, the ban appears to be the one — perhaps only — part of the labor reform bill that's been largely positively received.
The bill, referred to as the El Khomri labor law after Labor Minister Maryan El Khomri, has been enormously unpopular. Critics of the bill say it will weaken unions, threaten employee rights and enhance job insecurity for young people. In recent months, opponents have staged widespread, at times violent, protests.
Earlier this month, the French government invoked a rarely-used clause in the constitution to impose the controversial bill.
"It is my duty to move forward and make sure this text is adopted," Prime Minister Manuel Valls told parliament after an emergency cabinet meeting, prompting an onslaught of both boos and cheers.
The nanny state is thriving in France. This is what Bernie Bros want America to become. A land where the strong and efficient are shackled by the insecurities and flaws of the weak and useless.
Quote from: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 09:47:53 PM
The nanny state is thriving in France. This is what Bernie Bros want America to become. A land where the strong and efficient are shackled by the insecurities and flaws of the weak and useless.
Is that what your boss' email said?
Quote from: Jacob on May 25, 2016, 09:50:57 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 09:47:53 PM
The nanny state is thriving in France. This is what Bernie Bros want America to become. A land where the strong and efficient are shackled by the insecurities and flaws of the weak and useless.
Is that what your boss' email said?
My boss doesn't email me on the weekend unless its important. However, I email my boss all the time...
Quote from: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 10:03:13 PM
My boss doesn't email me on the weekend unless its important. However, I email my boss all the time...
I imagine your boss is a jew and the messages are along the lines of:
"Do you sometimes feel lost in life? Without purpose? Do you wonder what the purpose of all this is and your role?
I used to ask those same questions until I found the answers. The answers in the Book of Mormon and the Church of Latter Day Saints"
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 25, 2016, 09:27:44 PM
Quote
Checking your work email on a weekend or a holiday? In France, where employees have been granted “the right to disconnect,” that’s now against the law.
Given what's in the article, this line appears to be inaccurate. It seems it's illegal for your employer to send you an e-mail after working hours, but there doesn't seem to be anything preventing an individual employee from checking their e-mail whenever they want.
France is weird. I suppose people who have jobs that don't actually matter don't want e-mails from their bosses, and those might well be in the majority in France, but still...
QuoteThe real problem is the culture of having to constantly do more and constantly do better than competitors.
That's the real problem? :lol:
:hmm:
Would have thought there would have been a memo at work about this if it was really so strict.
Interesting
Finally some progress in the world.
Quote from: mongers on May 26, 2016, 05:48:20 AM
Finally some progress in the world.
Yeah, I love how it'll make it more difficult to get stuff from my French team.
I find having separate work and private phones solves most of this problem.
Email notifications are switched off and colleagues rarely call in the evening, and if they do it's for good reasons.
On weekends and holidays the work phone is switched off completely.
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 05:58:07 AM
Yeah, I love how it'll make it more difficult to get stuff from my French team.
That's got to be, like, an occluded front of bitch. :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:11:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 05:58:07 AM
Yeah, I love how it'll make it more difficult to get stuff from my French team.
That's got to be, like, an occluded front of bitch. :lol:
:unsure:
Quote from: Maladict on May 26, 2016, 06:07:30 AM
I find having separate work and private phones solves most of this problem.
Email notifications are switched off and colleagues rarely call in the evening, and if they do it's for good reasons.
On weekends and holidays the work phone is switched off completely.
Careful, Garbon will accuse you of being a socialist.
:P
France also votes laws that are not always enforced. I am skeptical for this email law regarding executives.
This seems over the top. I used to get plenty of work emails in the weekend, I just ignored them and they stopped coming.
Having a work-only email helps, too.
Quote from: mongers on May 26, 2016, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 26, 2016, 06:07:30 AM
I find having separate work and private phones solves most of this problem.
Email notifications are switched off and colleagues rarely call in the evening, and if they do it's for good reasons.
On weekends and holidays the work phone is switched off completely.
Careful, Garbon will accuse you of being a socialist.
:P
I would never use such a vulgar term. :x
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 07:09:19 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 26, 2016, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 26, 2016, 06:07:30 AM
I find having separate work and private phones solves most of this problem.
Email notifications are switched off and colleagues rarely call in the evening, and if they do it's for good reasons.
On weekends and holidays the work phone is switched off completely.
Careful, Garbon will accuse you of being a socialist.
:P
I would never use such a vulgar term. :x
:D
I'd rather deal with it over the weekend than have it waiting for me Monday morning. And if it can wait for Monday I'll ignore it.
It sounds crazy but the French workplace is vastly different from the American way of doing business.
From what the Frenchmen working here tells me, it is a fiercely unsociable place. Full of Hatred.
Would it stop clients from calling me at 6:00am?
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 05:58:07 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 26, 2016, 05:48:20 AM
Finally some progress in the world.
Yeah, I love how it'll make it more difficult to get stuff from my French team.
It'll have to wait til business hours. Is Monday really that bad to wait until? Will the Earth explode because of "your" french team?
C'est déjà bien qu'on te réponde en anglais, connasse.
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2016, 01:04:20 AM
France is weird. I suppose people who have jobs that don't actually matter don't want e-mails from their bosses, and those might well be in the majority in France, but still...
I didn't know swedes or wherever the fuck you're from work 7 days a week.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 26, 2016, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 05:58:07 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 26, 2016, 05:48:20 AM
Finally some progress in the world.
Yeah, I love how it'll make it more difficult to get stuff from my French team.
It'll have to wait til business hours. Is Monday really that bad to wait until? Will the Earth explode because of "your" french team?
C'est déjà bien qu'on te réponde en anglais, connasse.
Yes, because I'll have to be the one to do it. ;)
Also, not really sure what is the point of writing something rude in another language. I mean sure you got me to use google translate but not sure the goal of such opaque communication.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 26, 2016, 09:49:59 AM
C'est déjà bien qu'on te réponde en anglais, connasse.
Ooh! Ooh! Do me next!!!
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 11:02:34 AM
Yes, because I'll have to be the one to do it. ;)
Also, not really sure what is the point of writing something rude in another language. I mean sure you got me to use google translate but not sure the goal of such opaque communication.
Le but est de vous insulter, monsieur l'anglois. Le but est qu'il n'y en a pas, un peu beaucoup comme la plupart de vos écrits sur ce forum, monsieur.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm5.i.pbase.com%2Fo6%2F31%2F766831%2F1%2F95739325.VIqKEVAz.A1867.jpg&hash=b80e78b7c5f6697d145b125b8887719d240e9c64)
Sorry but my google translate quota has been reached for the day.
Quote from: derspiess on May 26, 2016, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 26, 2016, 09:49:59 AM
C'est déjà bien qu'on te réponde en anglais, connasse.
Ooh! Ooh! Do me next!!!
Non. J'ai atteint mon quota quotidien d'incartades à l'adresse de quakers quadragénaires.
Sorry, I don't have the words in French to tell you about how I'm not using google translate. If only you could read English and understand that. :blush:
Monolinguals :rolleyes:
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 11:15:48 AM
Sorry but my google translate quota has been reached for the day.
Do you really need a translator to pick up on what 'forum' 'insulter' or 'monsieur' mean? Please.
Quote from: viper37 on May 26, 2016, 09:09:04 AM
Would it stop clients from calling me at 6:00am?
Yeah that was my thought as well - I would imagine that in most jobs where you are expected to receive emails over the weekend, the people emailing you are very rarely your bosses - and more likely your colleagues and clients.
Quote from: derspiess on May 26, 2016, 08:18:13 AM
I'd rather deal with it over the weekend than have it waiting for me Monday morning. And if it can wait for Monday I'll ignore it.
Yeah. Apparently the French government does not think French people are capable of making that judgement call on their own.
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2016, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 11:15:48 AM
Sorry but my google translate quota has been reached for the day.
Do you really need a translator to pick up on what 'forum' 'insulter' or 'monsieur' mean? Please.
Hardly seems a complete thought.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 26, 2016, 09:50:58 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2016, 01:04:20 AM
France is weird. I suppose people who have jobs that don't actually matter don't want e-mails from their bosses, and those might well be in the majority in France, but still...
I didn't know swedes or wherever the fuck you're from work 7 days a week.
When we have to we do. Obviously. :huh:
Lol. Protestants.
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2016, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 11:15:48 AM
Sorry but my google translate quota has been reached for the day.
Do you really need a translator to pick up on what 'forum' 'insulter' or 'monsieur' mean? Please.
Hardly seems a complete thought.
He said the goal was to give you something like what you write on the forums rather than insult you.
I am struggling to decide who I'd rather see lose in an online fight - garbon or Zoupa. I think Zoupa, marginally, is more douchebaggy. :P
I swear this was a story before? I have a feeling this is something that gets covered every few years and isn't necessarily that true.
I'm all for it. Given that technology enables the encroachment of work into your private/social life and employers will always encourage that, there should be rules. I'd be tempted to go further personally.
Technology also allows the encroachment of your personal life into work. As the existence of this forum proves. :P
Quote from: alfred russel on May 26, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
Technology also allows the encroachment of your personal life into work. As the existence of this forum proves. :P
I've no issue with companies aggressively monitoring your internet (you personally!) and punishing :menace:
Most very highly paid jobs involve a massive time commitment. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Sure. But it's not just the very highly paid who are now expected to have their phone on at all times and be answering emails.
That's the issue is that this started as something for the top who arguably maybe do need to be available at weekends. It spread from there. Similarly I know lots of people who'd breach their employment contracts if they turned their phone off, but it's not generally something you're being told by your boss as Marti says. It's become a cultural thing.
If we don't stop it'll go the way of liquid lunches, actual lunches, evening plans, holidays and all the rest. Our weekend's will become Pret sandwiches wolfed at the desk.
You know lots of people making middling salaries who have to be available 24/7?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2016, 05:18:30 PM
Sure. But it's not just the very highly paid who are now expected to have their phone on at all times and be answering emails.
That's the issue is that this started as something for the top who arguably maybe do need to be available at weekends. It spread from there. Similarly I know lots of people who'd breach their employment contracts if they turned their phone off, but it's not generally something you're being told by your boss as Marti says. It's become a cultural thing.
Yeah, a silent expectation that that is part of the job, right up there with how clock watchers are frowned upon.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 05:39:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2016, 05:18:30 PM
Sure. But it's not just the very highly paid who are now expected to have their phone on at all times and be answering emails.
That's the issue is that this started as something for the top who arguably maybe do need to be available at weekends. It spread from there. Similarly I know lots of people who'd breach their employment contracts if they turned their phone off, but it's not generally something you're being told by your boss as Marti says. It's become a cultural thing.
Yeah, a silent expectation that that is part of the job, right up there with how clock watchers are frowned upon.
that that :huh:
Quote from: alfred russel on May 26, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
Technology also allows the encroachment of your personal life into work. As the existence of this forum proves. :P
Exactly. There's give and take.
I've never used the same email for personal and work. But then again I also don't bring any personal effects into the office either. I want to know I can walk away at any time.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 26, 2016, 06:46:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 05:39:41 PM
Yeah, a silent expectation that that is part of the job, right up there with how clock watchers are frowned upon.
that that :huh:
Not the most elegant prose, but still grammatically correct.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 26, 2016, 09:29:48 PM
I've never used the same email for personal and work. But then again I also don't bring any personal effects into the office either. I want to know I can walk away at any time.
You should be the next US Secretary of State.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2016, 05:18:30 PM
Sure. But it's not just the very highly paid who are now expected to have their phone on at all times and be answering emails.
That's the issue is that this started as something for the top who arguably maybe do need to be available at weekends. It spread from there. Similarly I know lots of people who'd breach their employment contracts if they turned their phone off, but it's not generally something you're being told by your boss as Marti says. It's become a cultural thing.
If we don't stop it'll go the way of liquid lunches, actual lunches, evening plans, holidays and all the rest. Our weekend's will become Pret sandwiches wolfed at the desk.
I disagree. I think in most work places they expect some sort of reasonable availability - say, that you check your email maybe two or three times over the weekend and make a judgement call whether to respond or let it wait until Monday. There are of course special times in every job where you can expect to work over the weekend, but these depend on your job description. If your job is an outlier and expects you to be available more than the average then they better pay you more - or you will just leave and find a better job. Trying to hammer it down with a regulation is going to affect negatively a lot of reasonable arrangements. Not to mention, I don't think the state should be interfering with things like this in the first place.
Plus, as I said before, a lot of economy, especially those parts of it where email availability is important, is now global. So regulations like this will simply make French companies and employees less competitive.
I'd be perfectly fine billing the company for overtime if they expect me to work over 40 hours.
More specifically, over 35 hours, since this is France :frog:
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2016, 02:55:24 AM
I'd be perfectly fine billing the company for overtime if they expect me to work over 40 hours.
More specifically, over 35 hours, since this is France :frog:
Does anyone in France get overtime or only certain jobs? Over here, independent and/or managerial positions do not get overtime. In fact I would be ashamed to work in a job that pays overtime because it implies I work under close supervision.
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 03:28:05 AMIn fact I would be ashamed to work in a job that pays overtime because it implies I work under close supervision.
Yeah that's normal here too. Salary means you've risen above that.
If I get promoted in October, and I probably will, I'll officially lose paid overtime rights.
I've never used them, but just compensated by taking a day off later as everyone else does.
Still, I should step up the job search.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2016, 04:56:11 PM
I swear this was a story before? I have a feeling this is something that gets covered every few years and isn't necessarily that true.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/julesdarmanin/chill-people-france-did-not-ban-work-emails-after-hours
QuoteYou know lots of people making middling salaries who have to be available 24/7?
I know one person who doesn't have a work phone which they kind of have to check. She very deliberately chose an industry and a role where that sort of thing wouldn't happen. We're all I think about average to upper salaries for degree educated people in London of our age and in various sectors. None of us are old enough to be earning really big money and none of us are in, say, investment banking.
QuoteI disagree. I think in most work places they expect some sort of reasonable availability - say, that you check your email maybe two or three times over the weekend and make a judgement call whether to respond or let it wait until Monday. There are of course special times in every job where you can expect to work over the weekend, but these depend on your job description. If your job is an outlier and expects you to be available more than the average then they better pay you more - or you will just leave and find a better job. Trying to hammer it down with a regulation is going to affect negatively a lot of reasonable arrangements. Not to mention, I don't think the state should be interfering with things like this in the first place.
I think it's a slippery slope - as with working through lunch which didn't used to be a cultural norm. It will be checking two or three times and make a judgement call but I think that will shift as the keenoes decide to do it more regularly and be more responsive over the weekend. Then I think that will become the working culture.
I've no issue with people working weekends on occasion because there's a big deadline or something like that, same with working very late. My objection is more the bleeding into your regular, everyday time away from work. I don't see the difference between the state being involved in this and the state enforcing paid leave, or almost any other labour law.
On the competitiveness point I think that could be said about any other labour law, but I don't find it persuasive. We're in developed, rich companies and our competitiveness should be coming from the quality of the work and the sort of added value not just a numbers game. Obviously there's a balance to be struck but I'm not sure that observing weekends as non-work time is that outrageous. Also I think if it's only checking your email two or three times a weekend, it's not going to be that big of a deal in terms of competitiveness. While for a person having to check their phone with that sort of awareness some shit may have landed on their desk that may end their weekend is a bigger deal.
QuoteDoes anyone in France get overtime or only certain jobs? Over here, independent and/or managerial positions do not get overtime. In fact I would be ashamed to work in a job that pays overtime because it implies I work under close supervision.
Yeah same here. It annoys me it seems like favouring status over material gain, which I'd rather have.
I think my point is that most workplaces are reasonable and this law is silly. Workaholic life styles tend to correct themselves over time, and state intervention is unwarranted.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2016, 04:38:17 PMOn the competitiveness point I think that could be said about any other labour law, but I don't find it persuasive. We're in developed, rich companies and our competitiveness should be coming from the quality of the work and the sort of added value not just a numbers game.
I work for one of the most successful law firms in the world. Client surveys repeatedly say that responsiveness is a key component of success - because quality is a given. I would be surprised if it was different in most of the other developed, rich companies.
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 04:46:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2016, 04:38:17 PMOn the competitiveness point I think that could be said about any other labour law, but I don't find it persuasive. We're in developed, rich companies and our competitiveness should be coming from the quality of the work and the sort of added value not just a numbers game.
I work for one of the most successful law firms in the world. Client surveys repeatedly say that responsiveness is a key component of success - because quality is a given. I would be surprised if it was different in most of the other developed, rich companies.
Your quality is extremely consistent. :)
Quote from: The Brain on May 27, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 04:46:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2016, 04:38:17 PMOn the competitiveness point I think that could be said about any other labour law, but I don't find it persuasive. We're in developed, rich companies and our competitiveness should be coming from the quality of the work and the sort of added value not just a numbers game.
I work for one of the most successful law firms in the world. Client surveys repeatedly say that responsiveness is a key component of success - because quality is a given. I would be surprised if it was different in most of the other developed, rich companies.
Your quality is extremely consistent. :)
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 04:46:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2016, 04:38:17 PMOn the competitiveness point I think that could be said about any other labour law, but I don't find it persuasive. We're in developed, rich companies and our competitiveness should be coming from the quality of the work and the sort of added value not just a numbers game.
I work for one of the most successful law firms in the world. Client surveys repeatedly say that responsiveness is a key component of success - because quality is a given. I would be surprised if it was different in most of the other developed, rich companies.
Sure. But I really do think France is kind of on to something with their 'the customer's not always right' theory :P
Shouldn't it be something for companies and employees, not the state, to decide?
It seems like that is what France is doing. Companies with over 50 employees have to decide this sort of issue through a works council - but it's not law yet.
I think that works in countries with robust employee representation, but probably wouldn't in the UK.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2016, 04:53:10 PM
Sure. But I really do think France is kind of on to something with their 'the customer's not always right' theory :P
Unfortunately the customer is the one who decides where to spend their money.
I get the impression your friends who "sort of have to have a work phone" are all upper middle class yuppies, which I believe reinforces my point.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 27, 2016, 04:56:29 PM
I get the impression your friends who "sort of have to have a work phone" are all upper middle class yuppies, which I believe reinforces my point.
Surely middle anything is middling?
As I said, we're all graduates in London. I think we're about average for our class and age. But I'm certainly middling as are friends in academia and the NHS (not doctors). It's not just something that only affects high-earners who chose that career.
I think it's silly to go into a career that expects you to read your emails over weekend, and then complain that it does. There are plenty of careers that do not have this expectation - your friends should go into those (only they pay much less).
I'm answering a works email now:
"FUCK THE LOT OF YOU"
:showoff:
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 05:05:23 PM
I think it's silly to go into a career that expects you to read your emails over weekend, and then complain that it does. There are plenty of careers that do not have this expectation - your friends should go into those (only they pay much less).
Really? What career? I mean even the ones in the public sector (and I don't know any government lawyers, doctors or fast stream civil servants) have to be responsive now.
As I say I've one friend who did but there aren't many jobs working for arts unions :P
I think it's weird that we've totally normalised and accepted what was considered really intrusive not very long ago. But as I say that seems to be the way working culture goes unless there is legislation to create new norms - like parental leave.
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 05:05:23 PM
I think it's silly to go into a career that expects you to read your emails over weekend, and then complain that it does. There are plenty of careers that do not have this expectation - your friends should go into those (only they pay much less).
I think you overestimate the number of people who plan their careers.
Quote from: mongers on May 27, 2016, 05:06:23 PM
I'm answering a works email now:
"FUCK THE LOT OF YOU"
:showoff:
Darling, you never struck me as someone who has a successful career. :hug:
Quote from: Maladict on May 27, 2016, 05:10:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 05:05:23 PM
I think it's silly to go into a career that expects you to read your emails over weekend, and then complain that it does. There are plenty of careers that do not have this expectation - your friends should go into those (only they pay much less).
I think you overestimate the number of people who plan their careers.
Should we interfere with lives of the successful people because the majority are mindless sheeple?
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 05:10:14 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 27, 2016, 05:06:23 PM
I'm answering a works email now:
"FUCK THE LOT OF YOU"
:showoff:
Darling, you never struck me as someone who has a successful career. :hug:
From you, I'll take that as a compliment. :P
A successful person is one who is obliged to reply to his work emails at the weekend?
Interesting :hmm:
The sadder thing is that people IMHO increasingly find their family lives so unfulfilling or their individual private lives so empty that they've come to see checking work email, and doing remote work, on the weekends as a crutch. It's just such an excellent excuse for not interacting with family or friends face-to-face, and the according social burden (and, of course, immense benefit for most).
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 28, 2016, 01:14:44 AM
A successful person is one who is obliged to reply to his work emails at the weekend?
Interesting :hmm:
Or, you could look at it as "a successful person is paid to reply to his or her work emails on the weekend." I'm fine with that requirement as long as it is understood up front.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 29, 2016, 09:32:55 AM
The sadder thing is that people IMHO increasingly find their family lives so unfulfilling or their individual private lives so empty that they've come to see checking work email, and doing remote work, on the weekends as a crutch. It's just such an excellent excuse for not interacting with family or friends face-to-face, and the according social burden (and, of course, immense benefit for most).
It has nothing to do with unfulfilled private lives, it has everything to do with unfulfilled work lives.
Answering emails from home, working remotely, etc...that's all symptomatic of the same reasons Americans are leading the western world in unused paid vacation time: fear of being seen as replaceable, fear of showing a lack of commitment to leadership who stay plugged in, fear in failing to prove they can get things done.
People are scared fucking shitless about the empty cubicles to their left and their right that once used to be filled with coworkers. So yeah, you better check that email at 8:45pm, because you never know if it's going to be your ass. In this day and age, missing that email may be the one that costs you your motherfucking home.
"An excellent excuse." What the fuck ever, man.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 29, 2016, 09:32:55 AM
The sadder thing is that people IMHO increasingly find their family lives so unfulfilling or their individual private lives so empty that they've come to see checking work email, and doing remote work, on the weekends as a crutch. It's just such an excellent excuse for not interacting with family or friends face-to-face, and the according social burden (and, of course, immense benefit for most).
I get the impression that Americans used to derive a lot of their identity and meaning from their work. I think that's going global now. In part it's sad that people aren't interacting face to face, on the other hand I think it's because they're getting purpose from having to work and being needed.
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 10:41:04 AM
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
Thanks what you like to think; maybe they're emailing each other, but decided to keep Garbon out of the loop? :P
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 10:41:04 AM
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
:thumbsup:
I've been reading criticisms of the way the French organise their economy for 40 years now. It is sclerotic, too many non-jobs, too few working hours, too many sinecures, too much welfare, the entire country is on holiday all of August etc etc
One can see that there are some truths in the mix, on the other hand they carry on being about as rich per capita as the British and Germans.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 29, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 10:41:04 AM
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
:thumbsup:
I've been reading criticisms of the way the French organise their economy for 40 years now. It is sclerotic, too many non-jobs, too few working hours, too many sinecures, too much welfare, the entire country is on holiday all of August etc etc
One can see that there are some truths in the mix, on the other hand they carry on being about as rich per capita as the British and Germans.
Yes it's an interesting question; maybe us Brits do a lot of non-productive activity at work? :bowler:
Quote from: mongers on May 29, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 29, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 10:41:04 AM
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
:thumbsup:
I've been reading criticisms of the way the French organise their economy for 40 years now. It is sclerotic, too many non-jobs, too few working hours, too many sinecures, too much welfare, the entire country is on holiday all of August etc etc
One can see that there are some truths in the mix, on the other hand they carry on being about as rich per capita as the British and Germans.
Yes it's an interesting question; maybe us Brits do a lot of non-productive activity at work? :bowler:
Tea and strumpets?
Quote from: The Brain on May 29, 2016, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 29, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 29, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 10:41:04 AM
So, I don't actually check work email on weekends or evenings any more. Why bother when my colleagues and clients are Europeans?
:thumbsup:
I've been reading criticisms of the way the French organise their economy for 40 years now. It is sclerotic, too many non-jobs, too few working hours, too many sinecures, too much welfare, the entire country is on holiday all of August etc etc
One can see that there are some truths in the mix, on the other hand they carry on being about as rich per capita as the British and Germans.
Yes it's an interesting question; maybe us Brits do a lot of non-productive activity at work? :bowler:
Tea and strumpets?
That's no way to talk about HR.
God, this forum seems to be overrun by millennials and ageing hippies.
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
God, this forum seems to be overrun by millennials and ageing hippies.
You could, you know ...... post somewhere else. :moon:
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
God, this forum seems to be overrun by millennials and ageing hippies.
Marty became a fascist while you were gone, Shelf.
Believing in hard work makes you fascist now? :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Believing in hard work makes you fascist now? :lol:
Believing in the importance of appearing to work hard and efficiently, might be a sign of fascistic tendencies, yes.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2016, 10:00:39 AM
It has nothing to do with unfulfilled private lives, it has everything to do with unfulfilled work lives.
I'll go with this as well.
Also, because frankly the way most workplaces are designed is just bad for the human psyche even under the best of conditions.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 29, 2016, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2016, 10:00:39 AM
It has nothing to do with unfulfilled private lives, it has everything to do with unfulfilled work lives.
I'll go with this as well.
Also, because frankly the way most workplaces are designed is just bad for the human psyche even under the best of conditions.
fyp.
Oh, no. Work is good for your mind. People need to feel productive in order to be happy.
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Believing in hard work makes you fascist now? :lol:
No, it's the other weird stuff you been on about lately. I do wonder if your political turnabout is because you have a crush on that Milo guy.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 29, 2016, 03:07:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Believing in hard work makes you fascist now? :lol:
No, it's the other weird stuff you been on about lately. I do wonder if your political turnabout is because you have a crush on that Milo guy.
:o No way!
Because a gay person can't like someone without adopting his views? :angry:
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2016, 03:19:07 PM
Because a gay person can't like someone without adopting his views? :angry:
We are talking about Marty here.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2016, 10:00:39 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 29, 2016, 09:32:55 AM
The sadder thing is that people IMHO increasingly find their family lives so unfulfilling or their individual private lives so empty that they've come to see checking work email, and doing remote work, on the weekends as a crutch. It's just such an excellent excuse for not interacting with family or friends face-to-face, and the according social burden (and, of course, immense benefit for most).
It has nothing to do with unfulfilled private lives, it has everything to do with unfulfilled work lives.
Answering emails from home, working remotely, etc...that's all symptomatic of the same reasons Americans are leading the western world in unused paid vacation time: fear of being seen as replaceable, fear of showing a lack of commitment to leadership who stay plugged in, fear in failing to prove they can get things done.
People are scared fucking shitless about the empty cubicles to their left and their right that once used to be filled with coworkers. So yeah, you better check that email at 8:45pm, because you never know if it's going to be your ass. In this day and age, missing that email may be the one that costs you your motherfucking home.
"An excellent excuse." What the fuck ever, man.
:huh: I don't disagree at all. But I think the one feeds the other; people are terrified of losing their jobs, which leads them to do work during their private time, which in turn gives them a reason for focusing on their work to the detriment of other factors in their life, things that ought to be important but are relegated to being inconveniences because of the destructive work climate. The unfulfilled personal lives are a direct result of people's work situations, but that doesn't mean that work can't also be a way of avoiding engagement in other meaningful parts of life.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 29, 2016, 02:06:24 PM
Oh, no. Work is good for your mind. People need to feel productive in order to be happy.
Protestant :rolleyes:
QuoteNo, it's the other weird stuff you been on about lately. I do wonder if your political turnabout is because you have a crush on that Milo guy.
Oh dear.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 29, 2016, 05:22:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 29, 2016, 02:06:24 PM
Oh, no. Work is good for your mind. People need to feel productive in order to be happy.
Protestant :rolleyes:
You mean like the Pope?
http://www.inquisitr.com/1180432/pope-francis-work-is-necessary-for-human-dignity/
Shelf, I thought you went High Anglican.
Quote from: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:24:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 29, 2016, 05:22:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 29, 2016, 02:06:24 PM
Oh, no. Work is good for your mind. People need to feel productive in order to be happy.
Protestant :rolleyes:
You mean like the Pope?
http://www.inquisitr.com/1180432/pope-francis-work-is-necessary-for-human-dignity/
In contrast to unemployment :P
I'm fairly sure Frank would back me in saying people should derive their happiness from their family and their relationships (he'd
probably add something about God) not their employment. Anyway I agree with him.
QuoteShelf, I thought you went High Anglican.
Who knew anyone could make Benedict look butch? :o
I'm not really anything, really.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2016, 06:56:36 AM
I'm not really anything, really.
You're a Huckabee fan, and that says everything.
The Republicans would be far better off if they'd gone with Huck in 2008.
I don't like his later work :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2016, 09:51:21 AM
I don't like his later work :P
The Mike Huckabee deep cuts just aren't as catchy as his hit singles were.
God. I'm a Huckabee hipster :mellow:
A douchebag rolling your eyes for Jesus. Swell.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2016, 04:39:03 PM
God. I'm a Huckabee hipster :mellow:
You were into him before it was cool.