QuoteMerkel allows prosecution of German comedian who mocked Turkish president
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has cleared the way for the prosecution of German comedian Jan Böhmermann, whose poem mocking Turkey's president has become the centerpiece of a clash between Germany's free-speech traditions and the government's efforts to safeguard its important relations with Turkey.
In a news conference Friday, Merkel emphasized that it will now be up to German courts to decide whether Böhmermann is guilty of insulting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. But critics — including members of her own government — have described it as a betrayal of values protecting open expression.
"In a country under the rule of law, it is not up to the government to decide," Merkel said. "Prosecutors and courts should weight personal rights against the freedom of press and art."
Although Böhmermann could face several years in jail if convicted, lawyers familiar with similar cases expect that the comedian would have to pay a fine, if at all.
The stakes are potentially higher for Merkel.
Criticism of her reaction to the incident had mounted ahead of the announcement. Opponents have said the chancellor made a glaring misstep earlier by calling the poem "deliberately offending" — a comment interpreted by some as support for Erdogan, who has been accused of cracking down on press freedom in Turkey.
Not allowing the charges to proceed could have jeopardized a refugee deal with Turkey, which was recently negotiated. Turkish officials had publicly pressured Merkel to allow the charges. Earlier this week, Turkey's deputy prime minister, Numan Kurtulmus, said that the poem was a slap against all Turks.
"That is why the Republic of Turkey demands that this impertinent man is immediately punished for insulting a president, within the scope of German law," Kurtulmus said. He went on to call the poem a "serious crime against humanity" that had "crossed all lines of indecency."
In her statement Friday, Merkel tried to appease critics by announcing that she would seek to repeal the controversial German law against insulting heads of state.
Merkel was forced to decide on the matter after the Turkish president had officially filed charges against Böhmermann earlier this week. The mock poem in question aired during a segment of ZDF Television's Neo Magazin Royale show last week. Some of the lines included accusations of bestiality and other unsavory things.
Merkel's decision followed clashes within her own government.
Germany's Social Democrats, the chancellor's coalition partners, wanted to prevent a court trial. One of the party's leading politicians, Thomas Oppermann, said prosecution for satire "does not fit into a modern democracy."
Another dissenter, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, called free expression "among the most important values protected by our constitution."
Udo Vetter, a defense lawyer and blogger, commented that Merkel's decision sends the wrong message. "It forces Germany's legal authorities to act on behalf of Mr. Erdogan," Vetter argued. But an internal report commissioned by the foreign ministry concluded that Böhmermann was most likely guilty of a criminal offense, according to Berlin's Tagesspiegel newspaper.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/15/merkel-allows-prosecution-of-german-comedian-who-mocked-turkish-president/?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-world%3Ahomepage%2Fcard
What the fuck? I am trying to come up with something more than a Tim-like pithy comment, but I am short for words, this is so outrageous. First, this dumb cunt invites all refugees to Germany - then, when it blows up horribly in her face, she strikes a deal with some tin pot dictator to keep them away. And now she is prosecuting her own people to keep up the crooked deal afloat. What a stupid bitch.
I disagree with her decision. The paragraph in question is anachronistic as she said herself, so I do not consider it a violation of rule of law not to enforce it. There is no public interest to prosecute Böhmermann either as the pride of the Turkish president is not something that has a lot of legal value.
It's just... wrong. On so many levels.
If anyone deserves to be poked fun at, it's Erdogan. He is a goatfucker.
This is an overdose of realpolitik, I think.
Wow.
How is it up to the German government to decide on this matter? What a strange law.
Quote from: celedhring on April 15, 2016, 10:24:17 AM
How is it up to the German government to decide on this matter? What a strange law.
It's a lex specialis that protects the dignity of foreign governments and their representatives to allow the German state to uphold diplomatic relations with that state. As such it will only be enforced if the foreign state demands it and the German government allows it.
The government could just have denied the enforcement of that paragraph as Erdogan also filed a normal criminal complaint for insult against Böhmermann like any other private citizen can do. For this complaint, it would have been correct to say that it is the task of the judiciary to find out whether or not the law was broken.
But in this case, the law explicitely allows the government not to prosecute if they do not deem it in Germany's interest, so I agree with the foreign and the justice ministers who openly defied Merkel over this.
Bestiality is unsavory now?
Will it be trial by jury or will magistrates decide?
Krauts should require the insulted foreign leader to fill out Kafkaesque extensive paperwork to demand prosecution.
The thing with blackmail is that the demands just keep on coming.
We turn to Berlin to sentence Nazareth. We have no law to put a man to death.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 15, 2016, 11:11:34 AM
Will it be trial by jury or will magistrates decide?
As far as I can tell the case would be tried in the lowest level of the German court system as the potential punishment is not very high. The state prosecutor can ask the court to move it to the next higher level though. The lowest level has a single professional judge, the higher level has a panel of three judges. Juries don't exist in German courts. There are lay judges in very grave felony cases which are held in front of a panel of three professional and two lay judges.
:lol: :bleeding:
Quote from: The Brain on April 15, 2016, 11:10:55 AM
Bestiality is unsavory now?
He should have said Erdogan is into scheisse porn. No German court would sentence him.
It pains me to say this, but I think the government decided correctly. The law exists, so it can't be ignored (though parliament has now pledged to get rid of it as an anachronism). Merkel's legal team seems to think that said law has been broken. Many commentators in the past few days agreed. Even Böhmermann himself declared in his show, that reading his poem was illegal under German law. He decided to proceed anyway.
So if the government has sufficient reason to assume that a law has been broken and is asked by the allegedly damaged party (Erdogan) to enact said law, would it be in accordance with the rule of law to not have the courts decide on the matter?
I don't know about Germany, but here there is such thing as prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors are perfectly within their own right to decide not to bring charges.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2016, 12:05:11 PM
I don't know about Germany, but here there is such thing as prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors are perfectly within their own right to decide not to bring charges.
Same here, but for that a case needs to be brought to the prosecution. Which is now the case.
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2016, 12:05:11 PM
I don't know about Germany, but here there is such thing as prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors are perfectly within their own right to decide not to bring charges.
For this particular crime, an authorization by the federal government is required so the prosecutor may even look at the case so he can decide if it merits charges. This authorisation was what Merkel gave now. Would be hilarious if some low level prosecutor drops the case tomorrow.
Here's the poem in question, both in the original German and roughly translated into English:
Sackdoof, feige und verklemmt
ist Erdoğan, der Präsident.
Sein Gelöt stinkt schlimm nach Döner,
selbst ein Schweinefurz riecht schöner.
Er ist der Mann, der Mädchen schlägt
und dabei Gummimasken trägt.
Am liebsten mag er Ziegen ficken
und Minderheiten unterdrücken,
Kurden treten, Christen hauen
und dabei Kinderpornos schauen.
Und selbst abends heißt's statt schlafen
Fellatio mit hundert Schafen.
Ja, Erdoğan ist voll und ganz
ein Präsident mit kleinem Schwanz.
Jeden Türken hört man flöten,
die dumme Sau hat Schrumpelklöten.
Von Ankara bis Istanbul
weiß jeder, dieser Mann ist schwul,
pervers, verlaust und zoophil,
Recep Fritzl Přiklopil.
Sein Kopf so leer wie seine Eier,
der Star auf jeder Gangbangfeier,
bis der Schwanz beim Pinkeln brennt.
Das ist Recep Erdoğan, der türkische Präsident.
Damn stupid, cowardly and uptight
that's what Erdoğan the President is.
His privates reek awfully of döner kebab,
even a pig fart smells nicer.
He's the man who beats up girls
while he's wearing rubber masks.
Most of all he likes fucking goats
and oppressing minorities,
kicking Kurds, whacking Christians
while watching child porn.
And even in the evenings, instead of sleep,
it's all about fellatio with a hundred sheep.
Yes, Erdoğan is totally
a President with a small cock.
Every Turk is heard to warble,
that blithering idiot has got wrinkled balls.
From Ankara to Istanbul
everyone knows, that man is gay,
perverted, crawling with lice and zoophile,
Recep Fritzl Přiklopil.
His head as empty as his balls,
the star at every gangbang party
until his cock burns while peeing.
That's Recep Erdoğan, the Turkish President.
When they came for Erdogan I said nothing.
Mommy's been very bad.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-XxHxhMMQPM4%2FUWY1FSdT0cI%2FAAAAAAAABOA%2F3U3OhwQAeVk%2Fs1600%2FSkyfall_javier_bardem_raoul_silva.jpeg&hash=8ab50655c3c20d04e6325c3460c3189996fc0e08)
I saw one article that suggested this law (which is from the 1800s or something) might be unconstitutional under the free speech provisions of the Federal Republic's constitution. If the comedian is prosecuted under this law, could he be ruled not guilty on the grounds the law is unconstitutional, or does German law not work that way?
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 15, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
I saw one article that suggested this law (which is from the 1800s or something) might be unconstitutional under the free speech provisions of the Federal Republic's constitution. If the comedian is prosecuted under this law, could he be ruled not guilty on the grounds the law is unconstitutional, or does German law not work that way?
The paragraph in question was part of the Criminal Code that was enacted by the newly-founded Reich in 1871. It was amended in 1876 and abolished by the Allied Control Council in 1946. The German government reintroduced it in 1953 and it was amended in 1969 and 1975.
If a lower level court thinks a law is not compatible with the constitution and this would influence its decision, it can suspend its proceedings and ask the constitutional court for its decision. The constitutional court would then decide on the question of constitutionality and hand the case back to the lower level court.
Also citizens can directly petition the constitutional court if their basic constitutional rights are violated by any government action (be it enactment of a law, legal or administrative proceedings). The court will check if their complaint contains a relevant constitutional question and if so directly decide it.
In this case, the court could theoretically find that the paragraph is void if it violates our constitution. I doubt that it would violate our constitution though as the provision against "normal" insult certainly does not.
I didn't know that Germany has lese-majeste laws. Such laws are contrary to the idea of free-speech.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2016, 01:01:39 AM
I didn't know that Germany has lese-majeste laws. Such laws are contrary to the idea of free-speech.
Most of Europe doesn't have free speech.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2016, 01:01:39 AM
I didn't know that Germany has lese-majeste laws. Such laws are contrary to the idea of free-speech.
It's Germany. You can't even put swastikas on model airplanes.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2016, 01:01:39 AM
I didn't know that Germany has lese-majeste laws. Such laws are contrary to the idea of free-speech.
Especially when the "majesty" in question is Erdogan, a foreign (dick)head of state of with thin skin.
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
Look, they're only following orders.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
The German penchant for order is something the Nazis used but certainly didn't allow to limit their own actions. Their actions in 1933-34 to establish the dictatorship were decidedly not following the rule of law. So this German adherence to the written law is something that is much older and broader than the Nazis. German history didn't exactly begin in 1933 or 1945.
Böhmermann should claim political asylum in America. That'll be entertaining. :lol:
Merkel eases relationship with Erdogan and it will be up to faceless civil servants of prosecutor/courts to throw the case out. It's then easier for Merkel to try and influence Erdogan on things that matter. Otherwise he'll get all bitter and quickly turn Turkey into even worse than it's now.
Quote from: Brezel on April 16, 2016, 04:11:37 AM
Merkel eases relationship with Erdogan and it will be up to faceless civil servants of prosecutor/courts to throw the case out. It's then easier for Merkel to try and influence Erdogan on things that matter. Otherwise he'll get all bitter and quickly turn Turkey into even worse than it's now.
:lol:
Oh wait you're serious.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 04:15:25 AM
:lol:
Oh wait you're serious.
It's just an alternative take on what Merkel could be thinking. I guess she could also be doing Erdogan a personal favor just because they really are such good friends, but somehow I doubt that.:mellow:
.
Obviously this whole debacle shows the stupidity of having a politician take decisions on matters of enforcement of justice
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
To misquote Longfellow :
"When they were good they were very very good,
But when they were bad they were horrid."
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2016, 05:03:20 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
To misquote Longfellow :
"When they were good they were very very good,
But when they were bad they were horrid."
I kind of wish I'd known the other verses of that poem when I was a kid. I only knew the first one. :blush:
isn't he in hiding already?
Anyway, the only things Erdoswie has achieved so far is making a very big part of Europe aware that this poem exists, having other comedians and satirists repeat or even one up it in other countries (over here calling Erdowo a goatfucker has already been called insulting... to the goats of course) and pissing of more Europeans.
Quote from: Zanza on April 16, 2016, 04:10:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
The German penchant for order is something the Nazis used but certainly didn't allow to limit their own actions. Their actions in 1933-34 to establish the dictatorship were decidedly not following the rule of law. So this German adherence to the written law is something that is much older and broader than the Nazis. German history didn't exactly begin in 1933 or 1945.
You're all a bunch of Prussians. Sticklers for the letter of the law.
The background here is of course that the EU desperately needs Erdogan's little fascist state to keep the refugees in Turkey. It just smells really, really bad. Like it's rotten.
Turkey - not only delicious, but also an ally.
With his small act of civil disobedience, Böhmermann has caused major embarassment for the government, a massive media echo and the ruling parties have already said that they'll abolish the law in the next months. So I guess as far as satire goes, this was supremely successful.
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
Your country enforces those laws as well.
Quote from: Zanza on April 16, 2016, 08:10:09 AM
With his small act of civil disobedience, Böhmermann has caused major embarassment for the government, a massive media echo and the ruling parties have already said that they'll abolish the law in the next months. So I guess as far as satire goes, this was supremely successful.
I have more faith in satire and comedy than in Marti's drama on any given day.
So to celebrate the uselessness of Slavs, here's a whole site of Slavs squatting: http://slavsquat.com/
Here we are in 2016, and still Germany demonstrates that it has not understood that legalism - following the letter of the law even though its normative value is absurd - does not equate justice. Pussies. <_<
O Recep Tayyip, Turkish devil and damned devil's kith and kin, secretary to the dung-street cleaner of Ankara. What the devil kind of idiot are you, that can't slay a hedgehog with your naked arse? The devil excretes, and your mouth eats. You will not, you son of a bitch, make subjects of us Western free-thinkers; we've no fear of you, by land and by sea we sneeze at thee, and fuck your mother.
You Anatolian scullion, goat-fucker of Ankara, and fool of all the world, an idiot before us, grandson of a whore, and the crick in our dick. Pig's snout, mare's arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, and again go fuck your mother.
So I declare, you lowlife Despot. You are making your country a mockery of the wise Ataturk's legacy. You wouldn't even be herding the squirrels in my backyard, because you are a buffoon. Deli İbrahim was a political genius and a paragon of wisdom compared to you, but sadly no one dares to strangle you with a silken cord in your latrines so to put a stop to your comical regime. Now I conclude, for I don't know your date and my calendar is set to the most enlightened western Gregorian calendar; the moon's in the sky, the year with the Common Era, the day's the same over here as it is over there; and kiss my arse before fucking your mother.
There. Germany, now sue me. :moon:
"You won't even be herding the squirrels in my backyard, because you are a buffoon."
All the wise men herd the squirrels in Drakken's backyard? :hmm:
Holy Grail flashback.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 16, 2016, 09:43:57 PM
"You won't even be herding the squirrels in my backyard, because you are a buffoon."
All the wise men herd the squirrels in Drakken's backyard? :hmm:
FMOP. :sleep:
This guy should have known that in Germany the only foreign leader you can make fun of is President Bush.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2016, 09:53:49 PM
Holy Grail flashback.
Older than that, but with my own personal, modernized touch.
Quote from: Siege on April 16, 2016, 11:03:45 PM
This guy should have known that in Germany the only foreign leader you can make fun of is President Bush.
That or any of the Kaczynskis.
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 12:13:00 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 16, 2016, 11:03:45 PM
This guy should have known that in Germany the only foreign leader you can make fun of is President Bush.
That or any of the Kaczynskis.
Even Ted?
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Which gay rightwinger wrote that?
Because, Marti, you are unable to actually form any coherent argument someone hasn't told you to do. You are an empty shell of a human being. And these days, not a very likeable one.
Good luck with that. I'm kind of reluctantly sad that Languish let you in again, as you basically have nothing to contribute except bile.
Another "yes" vote I regret forever, I guess.
Quote from: Norgy on April 17, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Which gay rightwinger wrote that?
Because, Marti, you are unable to actually form any coherent argument someone hasn't told you to do. You are an empty shell of a human being. And these days, not a very likeable one.
Good luck with that. I'm kind of reluctantly sad that Languish let you in again, as you basically have nothing to contribute except bile.
Another "yes" vote I regret forever, I guess.
Are you drunk?
Quote from: Norgy on April 17, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Which gay rightwinger wrote that?
Because, Marti, you are unable to actually form any coherent argument someone hasn't told you to do. You are an empty shell of a human being. And these days, not a very likeable one.
Good luck with that. I'm kind of reluctantly sad that Languish let you in again, as you basically have nothing to contribute except bile.
Another "yes" vote I regret forever, I guess.
Norgesvenn, we love you but this seems like an unwarranted attack on Martinus.
As Mart is a douchebag, any attack is warranted.
Btw, Mart, saying "are you drunk?" to a recovering alcoholic is a douchebag thing to do - just so you know.
Quote from: PDH on April 17, 2016, 02:28:05 PM
As Mart is a douchebag, any attack is warranted.
Btw, Mart, saying "are you drunk?" to a recovering alcoholic is a douchebag thing to do - just so you know.
Well, his post was hysterical, misplaced and exaggerated, especially as I didn't really say anything that outrageous in the post he quoted. So yeah, it reminded me of the best days of Norgy's drunk-posting.
Incidentally, your reasoning is identity politics at its finest - it doesn't matter what was said and what it means objectively. What matters is that "Mart is a douchebag" and "Norgy is a recovering alcoholic". ;)
Well, those things are by and of themselves: you ARE a douchebag, and he IS a recovering alcoholic. Respecting what a person is should be a part of civilized discourse.
Quote from: PDH on April 17, 2016, 02:37:26 PM
Well, those things are by and of themselves: you ARE a douchebag, and he IS a recovering alcoholic. Respecting what a person is should be a part of civilized discourse.
No. All should be accorded the same respect, and one should respond to what they say and not who they are.
No, all should be accorded respect when they deserve respect. The baseline is to respect until they move beyond the pale (that is called being civilized). If they are beyond the pale and apologize, then they are back to that base state. If they are an unrepentant idiot or douche, they should be treated like such.
Quote from: PDH on April 17, 2016, 02:46:11 PM
No, all should be accorded respect when they deserve respect. The baseline is to respect until they move beyond the pale (that is called being civilized). If they are beyond the pale and apologize, then they are back to that base state. If they are an unrepentant idiot or douche, they should be treated like such.
:)
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 17, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Which gay rightwinger wrote that?
Because, Marti, you are unable to actually form any coherent argument someone hasn't told you to do. You are an empty shell of a human being. And these days, not a very likeable one.
Good luck with that. I'm kind of reluctantly sad that Languish let you in again, as you basically have nothing to contribute except bile.
Another "yes" vote I regret forever, I guess.
Are you drunk?
No.
I probably should be, though.
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 02:32:16 PM
Quote from: PDH on April 17, 2016, 02:28:05 PM
As Mart is a douchebag, any attack is warranted.
Btw, Mart, saying "are you drunk?" to a recovering alcoholic is a douchebag thing to do - just so you know.
Well, his post was hysterical, misplaced and exaggerated, especially as I didn't really say anything that outrageous in the post he quoted. So yeah, it reminded me of the best days of Norgy's drunk-posting.
Incidentally, your reasoning is identity politics at its finest - it doesn't matter what was said and what it means objectively. What matters is that "Mart is a douchebag" and "Norgy is a recovering alcoholic". ;)
Oh, why do I even bother.
If you'd read anything beyond the Cliff Notes of Hume and Kant, we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 02:32:16 PM
Incidentally, your reasoning is identity politics at its finest - it doesn't matter what was said and what it means objectively. What matters is that "Mart is a douchebag" and "Norgy is a recovering alcoholic". ;)
I don't think the categories are really defined in that way, but rather "posters liked" (get free pass) and "posters disliked" (get overreactions).
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2016, 03:02:31 PM
:)
Despite being a Stanford person you do get it :)
Quote from: PDH on April 17, 2016, 04:27:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2016, 03:02:31 PM
:)
Despite being a Stanford person you do get it :)
If you prick me do I not bleed cardinal? :cry:
Quote from: Norgy on April 17, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 16, 2016, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2016, 03:23:24 AM
I love German mentality, by the way. "We have these stupid, likely unconstitutional, obscene laws but we are going to enforce them anyway because we uphold the rule of law."
Sounds like 70 years of denazification haven't really changed their attitudes.
It's more like Germans never do anything in half-measures, whether it's making cars, invading Russia, forcibly displacing themselves with Islam, etc.
I think they perfectly illustrate the difference between rationalism and empiricism. Germans are rationalists, but (unlike, say, the Brits) they are not empiricists. They take a principle and drive it to its "logical" conclusion - the whole "refugees welcome" fiasco is a great example of that. Germans decided they are tolerant now - so they announced they will accept any and all refugees, nuance and empirical evidence be damned.
Which gay rightwinger wrote that?
Because, Marti, you are unable to actually form any coherent argument someone hasn't told you to do. You are an empty shell of a human being. And these days, not a very likeable one.
Good luck with that. I'm kind of reluctantly sad that Languish let you in again, as you basically have nothing to contribute except bile.
Another "yes" vote I regret forever, I guess.
You can blame Jacob. once again, your faith in a left wing politician has failed you :( :P
Seriously, Norgy, I have been thinking about this and you were mean. So, I cant suddenly experiment with right wing ideas without you going all nasty on my ass? You know very well that in few months I will swing back, but I will still be hurt. :(
Edit: And I it was Stephen Fry whom I heard the empiricist vs. rationalist argument from, and he might be gay but he is not a right winger. :mad:
Do you really think you're in a position to complain about people being mean?
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2016, 01:14:59 PM
Edit: And I it was Stephen Fry whom I heard the empiricist vs. rationalist argument from, and he might be gay but he is not a right winger. :mad:
Oh, I was going to give you credit for distinguishing between empiricism and rationalism. Few people do that anymore.
The Spectator magazine is holding an insult Erdogan contest :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36086563
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/introducing-the-president-erdogan-offensive-poetry-competition/
I don't think much of Murray's initial effort, but Erdogan is a tricky word in some ways, perhaps competitors will have more success with Tayyip.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 20, 2016, 02:03:33 AM
The Spectator magazine is holding an insult Erdogan contest :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36086563
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/introducing-the-president-erdogan-offensive-poetry-competition/
I don't think much of Murray's initial effort, but Erdogan is a tricky word in some ways, perhaps competitors will have more success with Tayyip.
Excellent reasoning in this blog. And kudos to the Brits. You may have your faults, but you are probably the most liberally minded nation in Europe.
Creepy how much their government watches them though.
John Oliver had a piece on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJtrCcuv6o
Quote from: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
John Oliver had a piece on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJtrCcuv6o
Ok?
Quote from: garbon on April 20, 2016, 03:53:02 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
John Oliver had a piece on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJtrCcuv6o
Ok?
What's your problem?
Quote from: garbon on April 20, 2016, 03:53:02 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
John Oliver had a piece on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJtrCcuv6o
Ok?
Yes, I found the piece okay. Your perception might differ.
Never thought John Oliver was that good. Erdogan is such a hypocrite he was imprisoned for a poem.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2016, 08:35:39 PM
Never thought John Oliver was that good.
He's mildly funny but mainly his show digs deeper than any of the other comedy news shows. The rest just kind of repost the stories Fox and CNN have been flogging with a humorous twist.
Received pronunciation gets on my nerves.
I like John Oliver, he might not be the funniest but his pieces are usually well argued and researched. He achieves a very good balance between entertainment and commentary.
Erdogan is extending his activities and is trying to nobble Dutch criticism now :
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/president-erdogan-you-shall-not-pass/
Also contains an update on the insult Erdogan poetry competition :
"Well the entries have been flooding in for the 'Insult Erdogan Poetry Contest'. Thousands and thousands of them in fact, with entries from all over the world. The volume is quite extraordinary, particularly the number that are being submitted in Arabic."
:P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 23, 2016, 03:03:22 AM
Erdogan is extending his activities and is trying to nobble Dutch criticism now :
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/president-erdogan-you-shall-not-pass/
Also contains an update on the insult Erdogan poetry competition :
"Well the entries have been flooding in for the 'Insult Erdogan Poetry Contest'. Thousands and thousands of them in fact, with entries from all over the world. The volume is quite extraordinary, particularly the number that are being submitted in Arabic."
:P
A dutch-turkish journalist has since been arrested while in Turkey, her house in the Netherlands has since been burgled (and "whore" written on the wall), critical turks living in the EU are being blacklisted...
and now this:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-turkey-politics-constitution-idUKKCN0XN0KL
I guess that lays to rest the doubts about the final goal of the AKP in regards to Turkey.
QuoteNATO member Turkey, which aspires to join the European Union, has long been touted by its Western partners as a model secular, democratic nation with a majority Muslim population.
Whooops.
Don't worry Marty, Putin will save you from the evil Turks. :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 26, 2016, 06:43:49 AM
Don't worry Marty, Putin will save you from the evil Turks. :P
your avatar is very apt btw.
Quote from: HVC on April 17, 2016, 04:50:28 PMYou can blame Jacob. once again, your faith in a left wing politician has failed you :( :P
Why can Norgy blame me?
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 17, 2016, 04:50:28 PMYou can blame Jacob. once again, your faith in a left wing politician has failed you :( :P
Why can Norgy blame me?
Because he has HVC's permission.
Quote from: dps on April 26, 2016, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 17, 2016, 04:50:28 PMYou can blame Jacob. once again, your faith in a left wing politician has failed you :( :P
Why can Norgy blame me?
Because he has HVC's permission.
As good a reason as any I suppose.
Quote from: dps on April 26, 2016, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 17, 2016, 04:50:28 PMYou can blame Jacob. once again, your faith in a left wing politician has failed you :( :P
Why can Norgy blame me?
Because he has HVC's permission.
Right. Seems reasonable.
Also, Ide has annointed you the champion of the Left.
Does Ide still post?
Not often enough.
A German court has issued a preliminary injunction against Böhmermann today. He may no longer recite parts of his poem. If he does, he can face jail time or a fine. Other parts of the poem are considered protected under free speech. They basically said it is fine to satirize Erdogan for his attacks against liberty and against the Kurds, but it is not okay to call him a pedophile or say he's into bestiality. The latter violate him in his personal dignity, whereas the former are something a head of state must accept as valid criticism.
Can someone point me to the actual German text of the poem?
QuoteSackdoof, feige und verklemmt,
ist Erdogan, der Präsident
Sein Gelöt stinkt schlimm nach Döner,
selbst ein Schweinefurz riecht schöner.
Er ist der Mann, der Mädchen schlägt
und dabei Gummimasken trägt.
Am liebsten mag er Ziegen ficken
und Minderheiten unterdrücken.
Kurden treten, Christen hauen
und dabei Kinderpornos schauen.
Und selbst abends heißt's statt schlafen
Fellatio mit 100 Schafen.
Ja, Erdogan ist voll und ganz
ein Präsident mit kleinem Schwanz.
Jeden Türken hört man flöten,
die dumme Sau hat Schrumpelklöten.
Von Ankara bis Istanbul
weiß jeder Mann,
dieser Mann ist schwul, pervers, verlaust und zoophil,
Recep, Fritzl, Priklopil.
Sein Kopf so leer wie seine Eier,
der Star auf jeder Gangbangfeier,
bis der Schwanz beim Pinkeln brennt.
Das ist Recep Erdogan, der türkische Präsident.
Danke :)
Maladict posted an English translation before: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,13885.msg968111.html#msg968111
Quote from: Zanza on May 17, 2016, 02:03:41 PM
Maladict posted an English translation before: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,13885.msg968111.html#msg968111
Behold my incredible powers of camouflage and confusion! :ph34r:
I've seen the English translation-- not hard to find. Just wanted the original text. Might post on FB for shits & gigs.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on May 17, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 17, 2016, 02:03:41 PM
Maladict posted an English translation before: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,13885.msg968111.html#msg968111
Behold my incredible powers of camouflage and confusion! :ph34r:
:blush:
QuoteI'm pleased to announce that we have a winner of The Spectator's President Erdogan Offensive Poetry competition, and here it is:
There was a young fellow from Ankara
Who was a terrific wankerer
Till he sowed his wild oats
With the help of a goat
But he didn't even stop to thankera.
The author of this winning entry is former Mayor of London and chief Brexiteer, Boris Johnson MP.
That's a pretty poor winner. :huh:
Yeah, really dreadful.
I doubt he won on the merit of this poem...
Quote from: Zanza on May 20, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
I doubt he won on the merit of this poem...
Well, not winning on the merit of the work happened with Golden Palms in Cannes too.
Never happens with Nobel prizes.
Quote from: Zanza on May 20, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
I doubt he won on the merit of this poem...
It was a poor effort but, in his defence, he apparently made it up on the spot. I think the decision was political on Douglas Murray's behalf, as in "Erdogan, fancy suing a senior conservative politician in London for libel?"
Well, you know Tayyip and I are close personal friends after making each other's acquaintance by chance one Friday sundown outside the Blue Mosque back in 2011, so I'll do what I can. I can't promise anything, though.
All true, yet I hope all the same that the judge sentences him to 30 minutes of community service and time served.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on May 21, 2016, 12:17:04 AM
All true, yet I hope all the same that the judge sentences him to 30 minutes of community service and time served.
Award Erdogan full damages: one Euro.
That would make the Greeks pretty jealous.
The prosecution dropped the case. They say there's not enough evidence that a criminal act to has beeon committed.