Didn't know if this would better go into the 2016 campaign or the San Bernardino thread; if a mod wants to move it, feel free to do so. :P
QuoteDonald Trump Calls for Barring Muslims From Entering U.S.
Donald J. Trump called on Monday for the United States to bar all Muslims from entering the country until the nation's leaders can "figure out what is going on," an extraordinary escalation of his harsh rhetoric aimed at members of the Islamic faith in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif.
"Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine," said Mr. Trump, the leading Republican candidate for his party's 2016 presidential nomination.
"Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life," he said.
A spokeswoman for Mr. Trump confirmed the authenticity of the statement. Asked what prompted it, Mr. Trump said, "death," according to the spokeswoman.
Mr. Trump made his remarks a day after President Obama delivered a national address from the Oval Office urging Americans not to turn against Muslims in the wake of the terrorist attacks. Mr. Trump is expected to say more at a rally at the USS Yorktown in South Carolina on Monday evening to mark the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941.
Experts on immigration law and policy expressed shock at the proposal Monday afternoon.
"This is just so antithetical to the history of the United States," said Nancy Morawetz, a professor of clinical law at New York University School of Law, who specializes in immigration. "It's unbelievable to have a religious test for admission into the country."
She added: "I cannot recall any historical precedent for denying immigration based on religion."
Ms. Morawetz said that the United States has long regretted policies that banned the immigration of Chinese at the end of 19th century.
"It's a very sad chapter in American immigration history that we would think is behind us today."
Mr. Trump has a track record of making surprising and even extreme comments whenever he is overtaken in opinion polls by other Republican candidates – as happened on Monday just hours before he issued his statement about Muslims. A new Monmouth University survey of likely Iowa Republican caucus-goers found that Mr. Trump had slipped from his recent top spot in the state, which holds the first presidential nomination contest on Feb. 1. According to the poll, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas earned 24 percent of support in the poll, while Mr. Trump had 19 percent and Senator Marco Rubio of Florida had 17 percent.
Mr. Trump, who boasts about his strong poll numbers at the beginning of virtually every campaign speech, launched an unusually stinging attack against Ben Carson, another Republican candidate, when Mr. Carson took a lead in Iowa polls this fall; Mr. Trump, citing Mr. Carson's memoir about his sometimes-violent youth, called him "pathological" and compared his state of mind to a child molester's.
While several of the Republican presidential candidates have called for increased intelligence gathering and more aggressive investigations of suspected terrorists, as well as a halt to Muslim refugees entering the United States from Syria, Mr. Trump's pointed suspicions about Muslims have been in a category by themselves.
At his campaign rallies, he has drawn strong applause from thousands of voters for his calls on the government to monitor mosques, and he has refused to rule out his earlier proposal to enter names of Muslims in America into a database. He has also made a series of ominous comments about President Obama's leadership in fighting terrorism, suggesting that there was "something going on" with Mr. Obama that Americans were not aware of.
The proposal drew immediate condemnation from Muslim-Americans. Eboo Patel, the president of Interfaith Youth Core, based in Chicago, said, "I'm standing in a building right now where I am looking up at the Sears Tower, which was designed by Fazlur Rahman Khan," a structural engineer originally from Bangladesh who was behind what is now known as the Willis Tower.
"What if we had barred Russians from America because of the Cold War? Who would have invented Google?" Mr. Patel asked, referring to Google's co-founder, Sergey Brin.
Now his poll numbers will skyrocket. :lol:
I wonder if it's possible for Trump to go too far down that road?
Quote from: Jacob on December 07, 2015, 07:07:11 PM
I wonder if it's possible for Trump to go too far down that road?
I don't think so, he's fighting Cruz and Carson for the loony vote to get enough 1st/2nd/3rd places to justify running independently and continue his attention whoring.
http://www.theonion.com/graphic/trump-gives-muslim-fence-about-radicalizing-just-p-51999
Quote from: Jacob on December 07, 2015, 07:07:11 PM
I wonder if it's possible for Trump to go too far down that road?
I don't think so. I think a lot of his supporters want all Muslims out of the country. I don't think they care how.
(https://i.imgur.com/JAoyUGi.gif)
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 07, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/JAoyUGi.gif)
When will Trump and his Freedom Army
march/
well take the train/actually fly by executive jet and in a convoy of beat-up pick-ups on Washington?
i just don't want a Muslim concentration camp in my county. They smell funny already and the stench from the ovens will be horrid.
Wonder what daesh is making of this. Surely they are using it
I certainly wasn't going to vote for him anyway, but I was figuring that he wasn't going to be the Republican nominee, but if he did end up with the nomination, I'd vote for a 3rd party type candidate. But after this, if he does end up the nomination and the poll numbers are close, I might end up having to vote for Hillary. :(
I wonder if Trump is going "Jesus Christ, this was supposed to be a joke. Just what the fuck do I have to say to go too far and get an excuse to exit the race?"
Quote from: Tyr on December 07, 2015, 07:59:08 PM
Wonder what daesh is making of this. Surely they are using it
This is not much of an argument against Trump's statement. Everything pisses ISIS off.
This must have made Syt's sister in law happy. :P
I don't understand. How does this work in practice? So everybody who enters the US will have to fill out a card that has the question: Are you a Muslim? Please tick yes/no. Anybody who ticks no gets in. I'll tick no even if I were a Muslim.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
I don't understand. How does this work in practice?
It doesn't. It's even less workable than that stupid judge's "no visas for
anyone" idea.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
How does this work in practice?
It's Trump. Whether it could work in practice is not a consideration
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
I don't understand. How does this work in practice?
It doesn't. It's even less workable than that stupid judge's "no visas for anyone" idea.
I think Mr Trump's staff have not carefully considered the implications of this proposal before releasing it.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 10:06:03 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
I don't understand. How does this work in practice?
It doesn't. It's even less workable than that stupid judge's "no visas for anyone" idea.
I think Mr Trump's staff have not carefully considered the implications of this proposal before releasing it.
On the contrary.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
I don't understand. How does this work in practice? So everybody who enters the US will have to fill out a card that has the question: Are you a Muslim? Please tick yes/no. Anybody who ticks no gets in. I'll tick no even if I were a Muslim.
Donald Trump has a sixth sense for detecting Muslims.
Darth Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU_Jdts5rL0
Fucking amazing :lmfao:
Is this is history repeating itself as farce when was the tragedy?
Quote from: Valmy on December 07, 2015, 11:04:41 PM
Is this is history repeating itself as farce when was the tragedy?
WWII.
But I don't think the comparison of trump is with the fascists, I think it is with the america firsters in the US.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on December 07, 2015, 10:59:14 PM
Darth Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU_Jdts5rL0
Fucking amazing :lmfao:
That was good.
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2015, 08:34:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 07, 2015, 07:59:08 PM
Wonder what daesh is making of this. Surely they are using it
This is not much of an argument against Trump's statement. Everything pisses ISIS off.
Easier to spin "Muslims die die" than "hurray tolerance" though :p
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 02:38:12 AM
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
I think he is the most interesting US presidential candidate in living memory.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 08, 2015, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 02:38:12 AM
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
I think he is the most interesting US presidential candidate in living memory.
And I care because? :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 05:39:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 08, 2015, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 02:38:12 AM
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
I think he is the most interesting US presidential candidate in living memory.
And I care because? :unsure:
If you don't want to care, don't :)
I think he is an awesome/scary showcase of the degradation of American politics.
Sanders is the much milder symptom of that BTW. Why? Because he is campaigning for leftist stuff that has been clearly shown as not working in Europe and South America, and Americans didn't care for that while evidence of it not working was not abundant. Now that it clearly is not working, they want it!
What in particular is Sanders campaigning for that has been shown not to work? I mean, some other forumites have maintained that he's not really a socialist.
Quote from: Berkut on December 07, 2015, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 10:06:03 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 07, 2015, 09:55:37 PM
I don't understand. How does this work in practice?
It doesn't. It's even less workable than that stupid judge's "no visas for anyone" idea.
I think Mr Trump's staff have not carefully considered the implications of this proposal before releasing it.
On the contrary.
:yes:
Aye, Trump is focused on speaking to his audience. He's not trying to impress people who'd never vote for him.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 08, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
What in particular is Sanders campaigning for that has been shown not to work? I mean, some other forumites have maintained that he's not really a socialist.
He seems to be made of European-style populist left crap.
I mean, seeing the other offerings, I would be highly tempted to vote for him if I was living there, but that's more about the other candidates.
My favourite economic policy I have read from him was the killer kombo of raising the minimum wage and forbidding American companies to move production overseas.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 08, 2015, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 02:38:12 AM
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
I think he is the most interesting US presidential candidate in living memory.
Grumbler is old enough to remember George Wallace.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 08, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
What in particular is Sanders campaigning for that has been shown not to work? I mean, some other forumites have maintained that he's not really a socialist.
He's not really a socialist (he's a social democrat), and I don't know what he's advocating that has been proven not to work. I think some posters have just categorized him as some kind of left-wing Trump without really thinking much about what he is actually saying. Universal single-payer health care? *gasp*
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2015, 06:13:03 AM
Grumbler is old enough to remember George Wallace.
As grumbler is old jokes go, this one's pretty weak.
Yeah, seriously. The guy who remembers William Wallace like it was yesterday is supposed to go :face: at that?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 08, 2015, 05:56:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 05:39:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 08, 2015, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2015, 02:38:12 AM
Trump really isn't interesting enough to be talked about in 3 threads. :thumbsdown:
I think he is the most interesting US presidential candidate in living memory.
And I care because? :unsure:
If you don't want to care, don't :)
Surprisingly, I'm capable of doing that without your permission. :o
It's like he doesn't seriously want to be president, so he's trying to sabotage his campaign by being as insane and bigoted as he can, yet he's getting the exact opposite result so he goes double or nothing the following day.
What about his comments saying he wants to shut down the internet and wanting to ask Bill Gates to do something about it?
QuoteDonald Trump wants to ban the internet, will ask Bill Gates to 'close it up'
Speaking as he called for a 'complete shutdown' on Muslims entering the US, Mr Trump dismissed claims that 'closing up the internet' would be a freedom of speech issue
Donald Trump has called for the internet to be turned off so that children can no longer use it.
The presidential hopeful said that "We've got to maybe do something with the internet," because it was being used to radicalise people. He said that he would "see Bill Gates" so that he could look into "closing it up".
Speaking at the same event where he called for a "complete shutdown" on Muslims entering the US, Mr Trump laid out a rough plan for stopping the influence of Isis.
Children in America are "watching the internet and they want to be masterminds", Trump said in a speech.
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening.
"We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."
Surely he can't be serious.
Did you forget to put in the link to theonion.com?
Watched his speech to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Trump knows exactly what he's doing, displays impressive sales pitch and subtle crowd control. :hmm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQYOvDmWqjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQYOvDmWqjo)
Quote from: Tamas on December 08, 2015, 05:57:35 AM
I think he is an awesome/scary showcase of the degradation of American politics.
It could also be a catharsis in a way. Intolerance has long been a very strong force in US politics, but it has been hidden under the surface. You don't appeal to it directly, you appeal to it with euphemisms and dog whistles. A very effective way to get a policy proposal killed is to hint that it benefits one group at expense of another group. And let's face it, we all know what the problem with Obama is, and it's not his hidden Kenyan Muslin communist roots. I think partisanship in US politics would be far less virulent if black people voted 50/50 instead of 95/5.
Now that Trump laid it bare to see, and made it obvious how much of a force pure hatred and intolerance is, it can either legitimize its open expression or disinfect it with open light. Obviously the second outcome is much preferable, but things were bound to come to a head at some point anyway.
Quote from: Tamas on December 08, 2015, 05:57:35 AM
I think he is an awesome/scary showcase of the degradation of American politics.
Sanders is the much milder symptom of that BTW. Why? Because he is campaigning for leftist stuff that has been clearly shown as not working in Europe and South America, and Americans didn't care for that while evidence of it not working was not abundant. Now that it clearly is not working, they want it!
Calm down. An old goofy fart way behind in the polls isn't much of a threat.
Tamas sounds low energy. Like he was beeten or something.
Quote from: Valmy on December 07, 2015, 11:04:41 PM
If this is history repeating itself as farce when was the tragedy?
Spain's expulsion of the Muslims. That is an event worthy of mentioning Grumbler is old enough to have witnessed.
And it's all Trump, all the time on CNN. Let's see what's the latest pressing story about the Donald is:
QuoteJ.K. Rowling says Trump is worse than Voldemort
(CNN)Donald Trump, who stood by his call for "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" Tuesday on CNN's "New Day," is facing a firestorm from Democrats, Muslim Americans and a wide range of Republicans — from Dick Cheney to Marco Rubio.
But one of Trump's latest critics, "Harry Potter" author J.K. Rowling, may have some of the harshest words yet for the Republican front-runner's controversial policy proposal.
"How horrible," tweeted Rowling, along with a BBC report on Trump's call to ban Muslims. "Voldemort was nowhere near as bad," she added.
And fans of the fantasy novels know just how serious a comparison to the "Dark Lord" is.
Voldemort is the central villain in the series and considered to be the most powerful "Dark Wizard" of all time.
And Rowling, who is no stranger to political commentary, received a wave of support from "Harry Potter" fans around the world, calling her "queen."
Meanwhile, Trump says his call for a ban is only "temporary" until "the country's representatives can figure out what's going on."
That's too extreme for me; I was hoping for a candidate closer to Moriarty or maybe Fu Manchu on the scale of villainy.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 10:57:11 AM
Tamas sounds low energy. Like he was beeten or something.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 08, 2015, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 07, 2015, 11:04:41 PM
If this is history repeating itself as farce when was the tragedy?
Spain's expulsion of the Muslims. That is an event worthy of mentioning Grumbler is old enough to have witnessed.
Grumbler remembers Titus going over the Jerusalem wall in 69AD
Quote from: Tamas on December 08, 2015, 11:01:18 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 10:57:11 AM
Tamas sounds low energy. Like he was beeten or something.
:rolleyes:
It's been awhile since I mildly cracked on you.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:02:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 08, 2015, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 07, 2015, 11:04:41 PM
If this is history repeating itself as farce when was the tragedy?
Spain's expulsion of the Muslims. That is an event worthy of mentioning Grumbler is old enough to have witnessed.
Grumbler remembers Titus going over the Jerusalem wall in 69AD
Grumbler remembers the wall being built.
Grumbler remembers riding velicoraptors.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:06:48 AM
Grumbler remembers riding velicoraptors.
That just happened!
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:06:48 AM
Grumbler remembers riding velicoraptors.
Grumbler is old enough to have first hand knowledge that humans did not evolve until after velicoraptors were extinct.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 08, 2015, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:06:48 AM
Grumbler remembers riding velicoraptors.
Grumbler is old enough to have first hand knowledge that humans did not evolve until after velicoraptors were extinct.
I've been to the creationist musuem. YOU ARE WRONG.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 08, 2015, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:06:48 AM
Grumbler remembers riding velicoraptors.
Grumbler is old enough to have first hand knowledge that humans did not evolve until after velicoraptors were extinct.
I've been to the creationist musuem. YOU ARE WRONG.
If they didn't have a Grumbler exhibit the historical accuracy is wanting.
QuoteJ.K. Rowling says Trump is worse than Voldemort
:lol:
Now the more moderate alternative:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fimage_uploads%2FRepublicans-For-Voldemort-debate-678442_500_156.jpg&hash=9645c40b8caaf17e999e5325b09044024cc838d5)
But is he worse than, say, Sauron or Emperor Palpatine? :hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ozsticker.com%2Fozebayimages%2F1856_palpatinevader.jpg&hash=2cad006bef50dfbb9348c9d928a9840c294c3487)
I always ticked the "Did you work for Nazi Germany 1933-45?" box on the flights to the US. You know, as a jest.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 08, 2015, 11:02:31 AM
Grumbler remembers Titus going over the Jerusalem wall in 69AD
:rolleyes: It's not like that was something a person would
forget, FFS.
Quote from: The Brain on December 08, 2015, 12:26:36 PM
I always ticked the "Did you work for Nazi Germany 1933-45?" box on the flights to the US. You know, as a jest.
Crossed my mind several times too, but I never dared to fuck with the DHS :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on December 08, 2015, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 08, 2015, 12:26:36 PM
I always ticked the "Did you work for Nazi Germany 1933-45?" box on the flights to the US. You know, as a jest.
Crossed my mind several times too, but I never dared to fuck with the DHS :lol:
Me neither. :(
ISIS claims responsibility for Trump
http://kha.bar/1Kmz7uP
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/white-nationalist-and-anti-muslim-fringe-embrace-trump-propo#.bcLOKlMgL
QuoteWhite Nationalist And Anti-Muslim Fringe Embrace Trump Proposal
Burning up the fever swamps.
A coalition of America's top white nationalists again praised an initiative from Republican front-runner Donald Trump, this time praising his plan to restrict Muslim immigration to the United States.
In what is becoming a fairly routine ritual in a campaign that has seen no shortage of racially charged rhetoric from the Republican front-runner, American's prominent white nationalists again found comfort in a proposal from The Donald.
"I would not let in any Muslim immigrants at all, from Syria or from anywhere else," said Jared Taylor, who runs the site American Renaissance (which says that "one of the most destructive myths of modern times is that people of all races have the same average intelligence"), in an email to BuzzFeed News in mid-November. "They only cause trouble. Even if they don't throw bombs, they want special food, won't work with pork, want special swimming pool hours for women only, etc. Who needs them?"
Taylor, unprompted, emailed BuzzFeed News on Monday after Trump's comments, forwarding the previous comments with addendum "you saw it here first."
Former Klu Klux Klan official and politician David Duke offered his support for Trump's proposal on his radio program on Tuesday, saying the media is attacking Trump because his comments call into question a U.S. foreign policy pushed by Zionism.
"The Jewish knives are coming out on Donald Trump," Duke said on his radio show of Trump's comments.
"How come it's against America values to want to preserve the heritage of the country?" Duke asked, paraphrasing Trump. "We're overwhelmingly a Christian country and overwhelmingly a European country."
Trump's broad call for a ban on Muslim immigration also found praise across the white nationalist web. On the Daily Stormer, the white nationalist website that has endorsed Trump, editor Andrew Anglin wrote in a post "Glorious Leader Calls for Complete Ban on All Moslems" that Trump was the only candidate speaking sense.
"Why were these monkeys ever allowed in in the first place? What an insane, stupid concept," he wrote with a link to Trump's comment. "Finally: Someone speaks sense."
Brad Griffin, who runs the white nationalist blog Occidental Dissent under the pseudonym "Hunter Wallace," similarly praised Trump.
"In addition to the Trump database, this should help Trump peel off a lot of the Carson/Cruz vote while sending the Left into a new fit of PC rage that will generate free publicity through Iowa," wrote Griffin.
"That's great," Griffin said of Trump's policy. "We need to stop the damage the U.S. government is already doing to places like Minneapolis–St. Paul and Middle Tennessee with the refugee resettlement program. It was revealed today that ISIS is targeting the refugee program to funnel terrorists into the U.S."
On the white nationalist site VDare.com, Trump's comments drew rave reviews across the board. In one post from editor James Kirkpatrick seeking donations to the site, Trump's call was cited as proof The Donald was embracing the white nationalist cause.
"Even as this is written, Donald Trump has come out for a moratorium on Muslim immigration, just days after our Editor-in-Chief Peter Brimelow advocated precisely the same thing," wrote Kirkpatrick. "They may not admit it, but more people than ever are reading VDARE.com. And finally, people are beginning to act."
In another post, writer Allan Wall called the idea "fantastic."
"I am a conservative Evangelical Christian and I think Trump's idea is fantastic. They don't have Muslim terrorism in Japan, do they," he wrote.
Anti-Muslim activists — a distinct group from the white nationalist movement, which has historically directed its racism at blacks and Jews — also embraced Trump's proposal.
"No one has some natural right to enter the U.S.," anti-Islam activist Robert Spencer, director of the site Jihad Watch, wrote BuzzFeed News in an email, adding that Trump was suggesting a temporary measure and citing the role of "intelligence failures" in the attacks in San Bernardino, California, and Paris. "Must our commitment to 'multiculturalism' and 'diversity' override any concern for national security?"
The anti-Muslim provocateur Pamela Geller also praised the suggestion.
"Obama's negligence and jihad denial necessitates emergency measures. The San Bernardino jihad rampage is a direct result of Obama's jihad denial," she said.
Neither Spencer nor Geller, however, supports Trump as a candidate, because they believe he is not anti-Muslim enough. In particular, both broke with Trump after he denounced as "disgusting" a "Draw the Prophet" event hosted by a group the two founded, which was attacked by two gunmen in May.
Geller told BuzzFeed News last month that she preferred Ted Cruz, arguing that "Trump doesn't understand the importance of freedom of speech."
Spencer, meanwhile, wrote yesterday, "I will never support Trump for President, even were he to knock on my door, get on one knee, and ask for my vote. I could never support a candidate who advocates kowtowing to violent intimidation and submitting to the Islamic supremacist war against the freedom of speech, as he did after the jihad attack on our event in Garland, Texas."
CNN reporter said Trump held an event on the battleship Yorktown. :bleeding:
You mean the carrier?
Is Trump really against vaccinations? :unsure:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 08, 2015, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 08, 2015, 07:55:57 PM
You mean the carrier?
Yup.
He has already done one on the USS Iowa, though. Even went for the Neil vote by suggesting bringing back the battleships. :P
Quote
Donald Trump has done it again.
Less than 24 hours after President Barack Obama aimed to set the tone for the country on a response to the threat of terrorism with an Oval Office address, Trump only needed a press release to cause an uproar with his call for an outright ban on Muslims entering the United States.
The billionaire businessman stood defiantly by his statement on Tuesday morning, when he warned that failing to follow his plans would lead to another September 11-style terror attack on U.S. soil.
"You're going to have many more World Trade Centers if you don't solve it -- many, many more and probably beyond the World Trade Center," Trump told CNN's Chris Cuomo in a contentious interview on "New Day."
The episode is a microcosm of how the 2016 campaign has played out. Trump has consistently forced candidates, state party chairs, senators and conservative pundits to respond to his actions and quotes, however outlandish and improbable. And in turn, they have all struggled with the question of how to deal with the bombastic real estate tycoon who has dominated state and national polls since the summer.
Trump's enduring ability to frame the terms of the debate for the GOP continues to have party leaders fretting he will drive voters to Hillary Clinton, help down-ballot Democrats and cause long-term damage to the Republican brand.
Yet, unlike with past provocative statements, Trump appears to have sparked a level of backlash from GOP party leaders and his opponents that could be a tipping point for the willingness of fellow Republicans to criticize him directly and openly. Jeb Bush called Trump "unhinged." Ted Cruz said it wasn't his policy. And Dick Cheney, who previously said he would back the Republican nominee even it was Trump, said that Monday's proposal "goes against everything we stand for and believe in."
At a press conference on Tuesday, House Speaker Paul Ryan also slammed Trump.
"This is not conservatism," he said. "What was proposed yesterday is not what this party stands for."
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/donald-trump-muslim-republicans-2016/
I'm glad that the politicians have finally decided he's gone too far, but I'm very skeptical the base of the party will agree with them.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 08, 2015, 06:18:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2015, 06:13:03 AM
Grumbler is old enough to remember George Wallace.
As grumbler is old jokes go, this one's pretty weak.
Wasn't a joke. Isn't he old enough to remember that? :unsure:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2015, 10:59:56 PM
I'm glad that the politicians have finally decided he's gone too far, but I'm very skeptical the base of the party will agree with them.
All 27% of them?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-defense-idUSKBN0TR1KY20151209
QuoteTrump defends proposed Muslim ban from U.S. as outrage mounts
Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump on Tuesday defended his proposal to ban Muslims from entering the United States, comparing his plan to the World War Two detainment of Japanese-Americans and others in dismissing growing outrage from around the world.
The White House called on Republicans to say they would not support Trump, currently the party's front-runner for the November 2016 election. U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson said his comments could undermine U.S. security.
The prime ministers of France and the United Kingdom, Canada's foreign minister, the United Nations and Muslims in Asian countries all denounced the real-estate mogul's comments.
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
"What I'm doing is no different than FDR," Trump said on ABC's "Good Morning America" program.
"We have no choice but to do this," he said. "We have people that want to blow up our buildings, our cities. We have to figure out what's going on."
Trump said on ABC's "World News Tonight" the ban would be "short term." He said the ban could be lifted "very quickly if our country could get its act together."
Trump also pressed his case in fractious appearances on MSNBC and CNN.
On Monday, he called for blocking Muslims, including would-be immigrants, students, tourists and other visitors, from entering the country following last week's California shooting spree by two Muslims who authorities said were radicalized.
It was the most dramatic response by a presidential candidate following the San Bernardino, California, rampage, even as other Republicans have called for a suspension of President Barack Obama's plan to allow in 10,000 refugees from Syria.
Homeland Security Secretary Johnson said Trump's proposal could thwart U.S. efforts to connect with the Muslim community, and the Pentagon issued a similar warning. Secretary of State John Kerry said Trump's ideas were not constructive.
A Trump campaign spokeswoman, asked for comment on U.S. officials' reactions, did not address their criticism.
White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Trump's comments disqualify him from being president and said other Republican candidates should disavow him "right now."
TRUMP'S STANCE COULD HELP DEMOCRATS
Trump leads the Republican pack seeking the White House in 2016 with 35 percent of support in a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll. Nearly all of Trump's rivals criticized his proposal on Monday.
Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus told the Washington Examiner political news website that the United States must combat terrorism "but not at the expense of our American values."
The two top officials in the Republican-controlled Congress - House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell - criticized Trump but said they would support their party's eventual nominee.
But other Republicans warned that if Trump is the party's choice for the November 2016 election, his stance could hurt in a matchup with Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton.
"All this helps is his buddy Hillary Clinton, for sure," presidential hopeful and former Florida Governor Jeb Bush told reporters in Manchester, New Hampshire. "I don't think Republicans are going to abide this language that guarantees that Hillary Clinton has a far better chance of winning."
Democrats, meanwhile, blamed Republicans for Trump's extreme language and warned it could help him with primary voters.
"Unfortunately, Trump is leaning into the kind of fear of progress that very well could help him win the nomination," Huma Abedin, a top aide to Clinton, said in a fundraising email declaring her own Muslim faith.
Clinton said at a campaign event in New Hampshire that Trump's Muslim ban was a "shameless and dangerous idea" which played right into the hands of extremists.
Polls have shown a stark divide between Republicans and Democrats in how they view Muslims, who number about 3 million in the United States, or less than 1 percent of the population.
Some conservative commentators, such as pundit Ann Coulter, came to Trump's defense. Columnist Adriana Cohen wrote in the Boston Herald that Trump should go a step further and call for closing the U.S. border entirely.
Trump on Tuesday tweeted a link to a poll showing that 68 percent of his supporters would vote for him if he left the Republican Party and ran as an independent.
Still, Thomson Reuters data showed sentiment on social media toward the outspoken billionaire became substantially more negative compared with that before his proposal on Monday afternoon to ban Muslims.
Trump's campaign dismissed criticism that his plan would likely be unconstitutional for singling out people based on their religion. Spokeswoman Katrina Pierson told MSNBC that the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion, does not apply to people outside the United States.
INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE
The reaction from abroad was largely one of outrage. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said on Twitter, "Mr Trump, like others, is feeding hatred and misinformation."
A spokeswoman for British Prime Minister David Cameron called Trump's comments "divisive, unhelpful and quite simply wrong." A group started a petition to revoke Trump's honorary degree from Robert Gordon University in Scotland.
"We have never been as far removed from what we've just heard in the United States," Canadian Foreign Minister Stephane Dion said. The United States' northern neighbor does not usually comment on elections in other countries.
A spokesman for United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon rejected Trump's comments, and Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia denounced him.
Two international refugee organizations rejected Trump's comments, saying U.S. presidential campaign rhetoric threatens resettlement efforts.
Trump warned repeatedly that an attack on the scale of Sept. 11, 2001, could happen again if officials do not act first. He said that he did not know how long a ban would remain in place and that Muslim Americans would be allowed into the country after overseas trips.
Trump told MSNBC that people would be asked about their religion at U.S. borders and that the ban would extend to Muslim leaders of other nations. He said he would not support internment camps.
Some observers poked fun at Trump.
The Democratic mayor of St. Petersburg, Florida, Rick Kriseman, said in a tongue-in-cheek tweet that he was barring Trump from visiting the city.
"I am hereby barring Donald Trump from entering St. Petersburg until we fully understand the dangerous threat posed by all Trumps," Kriseman wrote.
:lol:
A parliamentary petition has gotten more than 100000 signatures and thus qualifies for discussion in the British parliament, the petition is to ban Trump from the UK for hate speech.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003
Huffington Post wrote that they are no longer entertained by Trump's antics, but really, this is still very entertaining. And he likely knows it. :(
I figure he's in full troll mode now, and would even give Jaron in his prime a run for his money.
Quote
Trump told MSNBC that people would be asked about their religion at U.S. borders and that the ban would extend to Muslim leaders of other nations. He said he would not support internment camps.
so, he's a moderate, really?
Well he just lost the 'Murican tough guy vote right there.
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
:yes:
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
You mean the Liberals, Social Justice Warriors and the like? I don't think they are the electorate Trump is aiming at...
Quote from: Martim Silva on December 09, 2015, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
You mean the Liberals? I don't think they are the electorate Trump is aiming at...
I think he means all the Trump supporters who say they believe in freedom.
Quote from: Martim Silva on December 09, 2015, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
You mean the Liberals? I don't think they are the electorate Trump is aiming at...
:lol:
Ah Martim.
Quote from: viper37 on December 09, 2015, 10:59:40 AM
Quote
Trump told MSNBC that people would be asked about their religion at U.S. borders and that the ban would extend to Muslim leaders of other nations. He said he would not support internment camps.
so, he's a moderate, really?
No, just an indication he is becoming low energy.
Trump is turning into Pat Buchanan 2.0.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.
Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.
Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2015, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.
Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.
Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2015, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.
Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.
Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.
Yes but I am quite sure that has been true for 99.99% of human population since, well, forever.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2015, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.
Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.
Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
Also significant to note that the Conservatives were still willing to bring in Syrian refugees (only less and slower - though, as we've argued elsewhere, the Liberals promised more than they could actually deliver ;) ) - in short, that despite the obnoxious Conservative "snitch line" proposal etc., there is no actual mainstream political home for exclusionary sentiment in Canada.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
If you go back to the election though the Conservatives poll numbers went up during the few days we focused on Syrian refugees.
The Liberals won, and yes the Liberals promised to bring in more Syrian refugees, but I don't think that you can say the Liberals won because they promised to bring in more refugees.
Canada never had a McCarthy or a Trump, but the US never had a Trudeau either. Not Justin, but Pierre - imposing the War Measures Act.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.
We are a strangely divided culture. It is like those people amazed that Nixon won so decisively in 1972 when everybody they knew hated him.
Now we are even more so. The news and information fed to the right wingers here is simply dramatically different than what you are getting. It would take a long time being immersed in their bubble to understand where they are coming from. But it can happen...see Syt's family.
Bring back Manlius Torquatus.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.
I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
The far right is surging in much of Europe.
Yeah so much for the glowing balls of light.
Quote from: Tamas on December 09, 2015, 11:55:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2015, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on December 09, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals. They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.
I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.
Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.
Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.
Yes but I am quite sure that has been true for 99.99% of human population since, well, forever.
I think it is true for much of the human population, but I don't think it is true for 99%, nor is it static by any means.
After all, the concept of "personal liberty" itself, and the states role in guaranteeing it, has a history to it - it is not static.
I think the extent that people practically (or even just theoretically) buy into it is variable, and can (and needs to be) influenced by culture, history, politics, society.
I absolutely reject the idea that you seem to be suggesting that there is nothing to be done, and we just have to accept it.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.
I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.
In relation to your first point, I think both you and BB are wrong about the Canadian election but I don't want to get sidetracked in this thread. Berkut's point that I disagreed with is that "Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want". I think that is demonstrably false. And it appears from your post that you think that is so too since you believe that a majority of Americans will vote for the Democrats who do promote more Syrian refugees (btw I don't know if the Democrats actually do that but if you say they do then I will accept that as true).
My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had. As Malthus correctly pointed out, even though the Conservatives ran a platform based on fear of the other even they were still willing to bring in Syrian refugees, just in smaller numbers and much more slowly. The reason why it is instructive to compare American and Canadian political culture is that in almost all other respects our cultures are very similar.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.
[/quote]
I don't know. There are significant differences between all of these parties though. The only thing they share is hostility to the EU and to immigration (particularly as one allows the other). While UKIP is old school Thatcherite and free trade, Le Pen's domestic policies are virtually socialist and protectionist. Both UKIP and FN have sought to move to the centre to gain support. The opposite seems to be happening to the GOP, presumably because of the dynamics of the primaries.
Quote from: Gups on December 09, 2015, 12:29:55 PM
I don't know. There are significant differences between all of these parties though. The only thing they share is hostility to the EU and to immigration (particularly as one allows the other)
Right but that is what we are discussing. Trump's economic policies have barely moved the needle.
Quote from: Liep on December 09, 2015, 09:02:37 AM
:lol:
A parliamentary petition has gotten more than 100000 signatures and thus qualifies for discussion in the British parliament, the petition is to ban Trump from the UK for hate speech.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003
He couldn't buy the kind of positive* publicity this would give him.
* as far as the Republican base is concerned
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
A great man, just like our Troll Trump.
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.
QuoteCaouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Quote from: Liep on December 09, 2015, 09:02:37 AM
:lol:
A parliamentary petition has gotten more than 100000 signatures and thus qualifies for discussion in the British parliament, the petition is to ban Trump from the UK for hate speech.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003
He couldn't buy the kind of positive* publicity this would give him.
* as far as the Republican base is concerned
Hell, I dislike him a little less as a result.
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
That's a pretty obscure figure. I'm a real student of Canadian politics and I had to google his name (though once I did I am familiar, even slightly sympathetic, to his party the Creditistes). Do you mind me asking where you heard his name?
Even I don't find Trump amusing anymore. :(
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2015, 01:18:14 PM
Hell, I dislike him a little less as a result.
Your opinions of idiots is way too influenced by other idiots.
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 11:59:31 AM
Now we are even more so. The news and information fed to the right wingers here is simply dramatically different than what you are getting. It would take a long time being immersed in their bubble to understand where they are coming from. But it can happen...see Syt's family.
Partly true. We do have thrash radios intent on imitating Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and others.
However, most people still receive a decent education and can differentiate between the lies, exageration and the facts.
Something Montrealers are unable to comprehend, apparently. But I digress.
I believe this to be the difference, a decent public school (though it can be improved a lot) and religious schools that still teach a scientific curriculum (only a few muslim&jewish schools teach creationism as a science, it ain't widespread like in the US).
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.
I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.
what really happen in Canada is the opposition forces voted mostly for the Liberals instead of being divided. The Conservatives themselves lost about 7% of the popular vote. But instead of sneaking through opposition, they finished second in many ridings.
I am unsure Trudeau will want to change this political system now, or at least, make one in a fair way for all parties. I fear we will see some kind of system that will give a net advantage to the Liberals 9 times out of 10.
Quote from: viper37 on December 09, 2015, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada. Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle. All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues. But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.
The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.
I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.
what really happen in Canada is the opposition forces voted mostly for the Liberals instead of being divided. The Conservatives themselves lost about 7% of the popular vote. But instead of sneaking through opposition, they finished second in many ridings.
I am unsure Trudeau will want to change this political system now, or at least, make one in a fair way for all parties. I fear we will see some kind of system that will give a net advantage to the Liberals 9 times out of 10.
Trudeau has promised to change our electoral system. And his preferred method is to go with ranked ballots - where you put your 1st, 2nd and third choices on it. And wouldn't you know, the experts all agree that would be a big win for the Liberals who are often people's second choice...
Does every other thread Have to turn into one about Canadian politics? <_<
:P
Quote from: mongers on December 09, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Does every other thread Have to turn into one about Canadian politics? <_<
:P
It doesn't have to. We're just fortunate when they do. :thumbsup:
Quote from: mongers on December 09, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Does every other thread Have to turn into one about Canadian politics? <_<
:P
You have to pick. Is it all about religion or all about Canada?
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 09, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Does every other thread Have to turn into one about Canadian politics? <_<
:P
It doesn't have to. We're just fortunate when they do. :thumbsup:
When some Canucks get together, conversation turns to Canadian politics, seems to be the default option; when Brits engage in casual conversation, we chat about the weather*. :bowler:
*If your bleak climate wasn't so unforgiving you'd have some of this. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.
QuoteCaouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.
That has nothing to do with the definition of "demagogue".
Quote from: viper37 on December 09, 2015, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 11:59:31 AM
Now we are even more so. The news and information fed to the right wingers here is simply dramatically different than what you are getting. It would take a long time being immersed in their bubble to understand where they are coming from. But it can happen...see Syt's family.
Partly true. We do have thrash radios intent on imitating Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and others.
However, most people still receive a decent education and can differentiate between the lies, exageration and the facts.
Well why can't you?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 09, 2015, 02:56:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.
QuoteCaouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.
That has nothing to do with the definition of "demagogue".
Caouette was leader of the Quebec based Social Credit party (the Creditistes). Without a big long history lesson, the SoCreds were very much anti-big banks. That, unfortunately, often had a tendency to overlap into outright anti-semitism (jews control world finance, don't you know). I think this is what grumbles is talking about.
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 03:00:24 PM
Caouette was leader of the Quebec based Social Credit party (the Creditistes). Without a big long history lesson, the SoCreds were very much anti-big banks. That, unfortunately, often had a tendency to overlap into outright anti-semitism (jews control world finance, don't you know). I think this is what grumbles is talking about.
Demagogue is a pejorative term. It means a person who is a popular speaker that you believe is catering to the worst impulses of the people and is devoid of reason. That is to say, a popular speaker that you happen to disagree with.
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 02:12:38 PM
Trudeau has promised to change our electoral system. And his preferred method is to go with ranked ballots - where you put your 1st, 2nd and third choices on it. And wouldn't you know, the experts all agree that would be a big win for the Liberals who are often people's second choice...
Sad, but predictable.
I'd prefer a system like France with multiple votes. We we require deeper changes than that.
Quote from: frunk on December 09, 2015, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2015, 01:18:14 PM
Hell, I dislike him a little less as a result.
Your opinions of idiots is way too influenced by other idiots.
I said a little.
Quote from: viper37 on December 09, 2015, 10:59:40 AM
Quote
Trump told MSNBC that people would be asked about their religion at U.S. borders and that the ban would extend to Muslim leaders of other nations. He said he would not support internment camps.
so, he's a moderate, really?
More moderate than Franklin Roosevelt. ;)
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.
QuoteCaouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.
No, that's not what made him a demagogue! :lol:
Quote from: frunk on December 09, 2015, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2015, 01:18:14 PM
Hell, I dislike him a little less as a result.
Your opinions of idiots is way too influenced by other idiots.
Well that is his schtick
I have to admit it is refreshing to see a Presidential Candidate be Hitler. Usually they have to be elected first.
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 01:46:52 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
That's a pretty obscure figure. I'm a real student of Canadian politics and I had to google his name (though once I did I am familiar, even slightly sympathetic, to his party the Creditistes). Do you mind me asking where you heard his name?
There's a book about him, apparently, with that title. Google the guy. Argued for shooting Communist leaders, said his heroes included Hitler, etc. Led a Canadian political party (minor, but once getting 7.5% of the national vote), served as a CMP for many years (Trump has never been elected to anything), etc.
Now, I never said that Canada has been plagued by demagogues, but I think the evidence shows that the claim that they have never had any is false. Caouette sounds much worse than Trump, in fact.
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 04:28:40 PM
I have to admit it is refreshing to see a Presidential Candidate be Hitler. Usually they have to be elected first.
Dunno. Hitler was Hitler before he was elected.
I think the worst case scenario is if someone assassinates Trump while he is leading in the polls, or even just attempts to.
Quote from: Syt on December 09, 2015, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 04:28:40 PM
I have to admit it is refreshing to see a Presidential Candidate be Hitler. Usually they have to be elected first.
Dunno. Hitler was Hitler before he was elected.
I did say usually. Actually he is the exception as he was never even elected President.
Quote
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
Trump may be technically right--probably barring people who aren't American citizens from entering the country isn't as bad as putting some of our own citizens in camps--but comparing your ideas to one of the worst examples of sheer bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by the Federal government doesn't make your ideas less contemptible.
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
Quote
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
Trump may be technically right--probably barring people who aren't American citizens from entering the country isn't as bad as putting some of our own citizens in camps--but comparing your ideas to one of the worst examples of sheer bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by the Federal government doesn't make your ideas less contemptible.
No kidding. What a utterly bizarre defense.
The Scottish fish lady has yanked Trump's honorary Scotsman title.
Is Trump of Scottish descent? I figured based on the name he was a Dutchman.
People have often claimed a preference for someone who is not a "career politician". This is what it looks like.
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
Quote
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
Trump may be technically right--probably barring people who aren't American citizens from entering the country isn't as bad as putting some of our own citizens in camps--but comparing your ideas to one of the worst examples of sheer bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by the Federal government doesn't make your ideas less contemptible.
I understand what you are saying, but he still isn't right.
In one case, the armed forces of Japan destroyed the Pacific fleet and were overrunning SE Asia and threatening Australia and Hawaii.
In this case, 2 nut jobs killed 14 people at a special needs hospital.
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
Quote
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
Trump may be technically right--probably barring people who aren't American citizens from entering the country isn't as bad as putting some of our own citizens in camps--but comparing your ideas to one of the worst examples of sheer bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by the Federal government doesn't make your ideas less contemptible.
German-Americans and Italian-Americans were not subject to internment, although presumably under Trump's logic they should have been.
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 04:35:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 01:46:52 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
That's a pretty obscure figure. I'm a real student of Canadian politics and I had to google his name (though once I did I am familiar, even slightly sympathetic, to his party the Creditistes). Do you mind me asking where you heard his name?
There's a book about him, apparently, with that title. Google the guy. Argued for shooting Communist leaders, said his heroes included Hitler, etc. Led a Canadian political party (minor, but once getting 7.5% of the national vote), served as a CMP for many years (Trump has never been elected to anything), etc.
Now, I never said that Canada has been plagued by demagogues, but I think the evidence shows that the claim that they have never had any is false. Caouette sounds much worse than Trump, in fact.
I have been, which is why I'm so surprised you'd ever heard about him. The only book I can find about him was a French-only book published in 1981. Did you actually read that book? If not... I'm just curious - where did you hear about this guy?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 09, 2015, 04:55:01 PM
People have often claimed a preference for someone who is not a "career politician". This is what it looks like.
To be honest, if I were American and the choice available, I'd rather vote for you than Trump - and you aren't a career politician. ;)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 09, 2015, 04:53:36 PM
The Scottish fish lady has yanked Trump's honorary Scotsman title.
Is Trump of Scottish descent? I figured based on the name he was a Dutchman.
German, at least from the Trump side. There were some news articles about a book on his family a little while ago, and in particular how his grandfather Friedrich Trump got his start in my favourite ever historical event, the Klondike gold rush.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/trump-canada-yukon-1.3235254
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 09, 2015, 04:59:22 PM
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
Quote
But Trump said his ideas were no worse than those of then-President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who oversaw the internment of more than 110,000 people in U.S. government camps after Japanese forces bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
Trump may be technically right--probably barring people who aren't American citizens from entering the country isn't as bad as putting some of our own citizens in camps--but comparing your ideas to one of the worst examples of sheer bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by the Federal government doesn't make your ideas less contemptible.
German-Americans and Italian-Americans were not subject to internment, although presumably under Trump's logic they should have been.
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans
had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry, and AR's defense of it in Reply # 33 wouldn't be so stupid.
African-Americans are put in gaol and that's OK.
It certainly isn't the case that Canada has never had demagogues. It appears to be the case that Canada nowadays lacks mainstream demagogues at the federal level. Our Conservatives are not the equivalent of the US Republicans - for whatever reason, the latter have been hijacked by what appear to be popular lunatics: many of the most popular Presidential choices (Trump, Carson) are, to this foreigner's eye, quite bizarre. :wacko:
Our Conservatives, in contrast, appear boringly normal.
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry, and AR's defense of it in Reply # 33 wouldn't be so stupid.
I don't think I was defending anything. :huh:
Quote from: alfred russel on December 09, 2015, 05:08:28 PM
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry, and AR's defense of it in Reply # 33 wouldn't be so stupid.
I don't think I was defending anything. :huh:
He who defends nothing defends everything.
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry
Exactly.
Scalia gave a speech about a year ago in Hawaii anticipating this sort of nonsense:
Quote"You are kidding yourself if you think the same thing will not happen again," Scalia told the University of Hawaii law school while discussing Korematsu v. United States, the ruling in which the court gave its imprimatur to the internment camps.
The local Associated Press report quotes Scalia as using a Latin phrase that means "in times of war, the laws fall silent," to explain why the court erred in that decision and will do so again.
"That's what was going on — the panic about the war and the invasion of the Pacific and whatnot," Scalia said. "That's what happens. It was wrong, but I would not be surprised to see it happen again, in time of war. It's no justification but it is the reality."
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 09, 2015, 05:15:36 PM
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry
Exactly.
Germans were interned, albeit at a smaller rate.
IIRC German nationals only. Japanese-Americans were interned regardless of citizenship.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 09, 2015, 05:15:36 PM
Quote from: dps on December 09, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
If German-Americans and Italian-Americans had been interned as well, then the internment policy (though it would have still been a bad thing) would not be so obvious an example of bigotry
Exactly.
Well technically some were interned.
Quote from: Caliga on December 09, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
IIRC German nationals only. Japanese-Americans were interned regardless of citizenship.
American citizens of German descent were also interned, but again in smaller numbers.
My Grandmother's maiden name was Hess... I think some of her relatives had some trouble.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 09, 2015, 06:29:57 PM
My Grandmother's maiden name was Hess... I think some of her relatives had some trouble.
Serves them right for being fans of Spandau Ballet, one of who's records was a war crime in itself. :bowler:
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 05:00:52 PM
I have been, which is why I'm so surprised you'd ever heard about him. The only book I can find about him was a French-only book published in 1981. Did you actually read that book? If not... I'm just curious - where did you hear about this guy?
I googled "Canadian demagogue." How else would one find out about Canadian demagogues?
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2015, 06:19:03 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 09, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
IIRC German nationals only. Japanese-Americans were interned regardless of citizenship.
American citizens of German descent were also interned, but again in smaller numbers.
Yes, but the few involved were detained on an individual basis and after due process. That's a whole different case.
I wonder how it feels to live in a country where there is a real possibility that Trump could become president. You never know what the guy is going to say next :lol:
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had...
Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues. Réal Caouette was one, for instance.
Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.
QuoteCaouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.
No, that's not what made him a demagogue! :lol:
You're right!
Quote from: Monoriu on December 09, 2015, 07:54:35 PM
I wonder how it feels to live in a country where there is a real possibility that Trump could become president. You never know what the guy is going to say next :lol:
Never a dull moment.
Quote from: grumbler on December 09, 2015, 07:36:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 09, 2015, 05:00:52 PM
I have been, which is why I'm so surprised you'd ever heard about him. The only book I can find about him was a French-only book published in 1981. Did you actually read that book? If not... I'm just curious - where did you hear about this guy?
I googled "Canadian demagogue." How else would one find out about Canadian demagogues?
Thought it would be something like that. He's just such an obscure figure.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 09, 2015, 09:03:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 09, 2015, 07:54:35 PM
I wonder how it feels to live in a country where there is a real possibility that Trump could become president. You never know what the guy is going to say next :lol:
Never a dull moment.
I feel like his shtick is wearing thin. /shrug
The Germans got it in WW1.
The Italians-American leaders worked very hard to repudiate Mussolini as much as possible before the US entered the war, or at least that was my sense. They didn't want to get it like the Germans did.
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 11:25:30 PM
The Italians-American leaders
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FFilm%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2009%2F10%2F8%2F1254999539142%2FMarlon-Brando-in-The-Godf-001.jpg&hash=557e131da7749754822e10991466923baf283e46)
Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2015, 11:25:30 PM
The Germans got it in WW1.
The Italians-American leaders worked very hard to repudiate Mussolini as much as possible before the US entered the war, or at least that was my sense. They didn't want to get it like the Germans did.
Also, Italian Americans were an important democratic voting block.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 09, 2015, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 09, 2015, 09:03:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 09, 2015, 07:54:35 PM
I wonder how it feels to live in a country where there is a real possibility that Trump could become president. You never know what the guy is going to say next :lol:
Never a dull moment.
I feel like his shtick is wearing thin. /shrug
hmm...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.lpcdn.ca%2F924x615%2F201512%2F09%2F1102453-texas-seul-etat-avoir-traine.jpg&hash=f788acbfb36448593d3abb9b6c6b2723b95b6cc2)
Quote from: celedhring on December 08, 2015, 08:08:09 AM
It's like he doesn't seriously want to be president, so he's trying to sabotage his campaign by being as insane and bigoted as he can, yet he's getting the exact opposite result so he goes double or nothing the following day.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F45.media.tumblr.com%2F981d4200719011823f5a6829486b8f91%2Ftumblr_mtyymiPeZH1rhp4nco1_500.gif&hash=d9d8fddc5f7f30aa736dc2dd095878a6c92bf1eb)
I don't think you can simply reduce "Trump-ism" to mere nativism. He's a snake oil salesman who's convinced a few people that he has all the answers. Tom Tancredo campaigned on hardline enforcement of immigration laws and got nowhere.
Anyway, I was saying *I* disagree with Mono, Trump is starting to bore *me*. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean other people won't vote for him, or that the press will stop talking about him constantly.