QuoteTurkey Takes Down a Russian Warplane
Turkish forces shot down the aircraft near the Syrian border on Tuesday, saying it violated its airspace.
MARINA KOREN 7:58 AM ET GLOBAL
Updated on November 24 at 10:27 a.m. ET
Turkey has shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border after the aircraft violated its airspace and ignored repeated warnings, according to the Turkish military.
The Russian Defense Ministry said Tuesday that one of its jets had crashed in northwestern Syria "presumably as a result of shelling from the ground," The New York Times reported. Later, Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is in Sochi meeting with Jordanian King Abdullah II, said at a press conference that the warplane was struck by air-to-air-missiles launched by Turkish fighter jets, The Guardian reported.
The Turkish military said its forces issued 10 warnings to the jet, a Sukhoi SU-24, after it entered its airspace near the Turkey-Syria border, according to CNN. Turkish military then "responded" when the warplane ignored the warnings.
Putin called the downing of the plane "a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists." He said the warplane did not violate Turkey's airspace.
The warplane's two pilots were able to eject themselves from the aircraft before it crashed. They came under fire by a Syrian rebel group, and both were as they parachuted the ground, Reuters reported.
The downing of the warcraft will likely further escalate tensions between Turkey and Russia. Moscow's recent intervention in Syria has aggravated Ankara; Russian air strikes have targeted Turkish-rebel groups who are fighting against the Assad government, which Turkey opposes, and Russian warplanes in Turkish skies at least twice last month without permission.
NATO has called an emergency meeting, requested by Turkey. "The aim of this extraordinary NAC meeting is for Turkey to inform allies about the downing of a Russian airplane," a NATO spokesperson told the AP.
Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has canceled a planned visit to Turkey on Wednesday. Russia's ambassador to Turkey was summoned to the offices of Turkey's foreign ministry, according to Russian news agency Sputnik.
In his remarks Tuesday, Putin mentioned a deconfliction agreement Moscow signed with Washington after Russian forces began bombing extremists in Syria last month in order to avoid dangerous clashes in a shared airspace.
"Taking into account that we signed an agreement on deconflicting with the U.S., and as we know Turkey was among the ones that has joined the U.S. coalition," he said, referring to the U.S.-led mission of several nations that carries out near daily strikes against Islamic State targets in Iraq and Syria. Turkey joined in the effort in late August.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/11/turkey-russia-syria-nato/417450/
Another one? :o
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2015, 10:43:23 AM
The warplane's two pilots were able to eject themselves from the aircraft before it crashed. They came under fire by a Syrian rebel group, and both were as they parachuted the ground, Reuters reported.
Both were what??? This is arguably the most important information and they fucking screw it up.
Oh so it seems BB can't copy paste. Or perhaps he thought that it is too early to pass judgement.
My first image when I read the thread title was a thanksgiving turkey (silly pilgrim hat and all) with a rocket launcher.
On topic, this could get interesting.
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 11:23:04 AM
My first image when I read the thread title was a thanksgiving turkey (silly pilgrim hat and all) with a rocket launcher.
On topic, this could get interesting.
In Soviet Russia Thanksgiving, Turkey bastes YOU!
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 11:23:04 AM
My first image when I read the thread title was a thanksgiving turkey (silly pilgrim hat and all) with a rocket launcher.
On topic, this could get interesting.
But it was the Russians who were stuffed :hmm:
Lord have mercy on these brave Russian pilots and the cowardly Turks who made their mission more difficult.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 10:55:18 AM
Oh so it seems BB can't copy paste. Or perhaps he thought that it is too early to pass judgement.
I can hit Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V with the best of them. -_-
That's how the article was written at the time I posted. I see it has now changed to say the pilots were killed.
Putin has basically called out Turkey for profiting from ISIS oil and supporting them.
More details over at the BBC:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F624%2Fcpsprodpb%2FD395%2Fproduction%2F_86856145_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png&hash=e9fb62eaef3a82fe86ae32fbdaebd06b764456f7)
So it seems the Jet did violate Turkish airspace, though the Russians defend it by saying it was only briefly. The Turks shoot down the plane after it had left Turkish airspace however.
If the Russians weren't so damned aggressive in testing everyone's airspace I might feel sorry for them.
This is also being discussed over in the main ISIS thread btw.
As I said there, if that map is accurate then the Russian flight time in Turkish airspace can only have been a few seconds.
So they were shot outside Turkish airspace. That makes a huge diff.
I assume this was a 'straw that broke the camel's back' situation. That is, that the Russians were needling the Turks with violations, until the Turks basically said 'next time they do it, then POW!'.
Quote from: Josephus on November 24, 2015, 12:21:16 PM
So they were shot outside Turkish airspace. That makes a huge diff.
Not really.
If the Turks were justified in shooting, they were justified by the violation.
I am not sure they were, so whether the aircraft was hit in the few seconds/minutes it was inside Turkey proper or not is immaterial.
If they ARE justified, it is on the basis that the target violated their airspace after being explicitly warned not to do so - if in fact it took a few moments for that consequence to impact, then so what?
I don't think Turkey is claiming the aircraft was an imminent threat to them base don its actually being in Turkish airspace.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
This is also being discussed over in the main ISIS thread btw.
As I said there, if that map is accurate then the Russian flight time in Turkish airspace can only have been a few seconds.
Think about all the favorite languish topics of discussion this touches on:
Erdogan
Putin
General Military Shit
ISIS
NATO
If it turns out one of the russian pilots was homosexual, this will be the holy grail of languish topics, and likely be mentioned in every thread we have.
Just so long as none of them took yoga classes, if that is the case then anything could happen.
News is saying both Russian fighter bomber pilots are dead, shot at as they descending in parachutes. I heard audio of shooters on the ground yelling and shooting. Also video of the savages desecrating the body of at least one of the pilots. I'm sure Russians will be pissed about it, heck I'm pretty pissed about it. IMO Turkey needed to think this through, the implications, of a Russian plane briefly passing through their air space while maneuvering for bombing runs. Was it really a threat to Turkey that they needed to respond with lethal force? And what may result from a shoot down. Now the Russians certainly will want to respond in kind.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:41:16 PM
Just so long as none of them took yoga classes, if that is the case then anything could happen.
A Russian colleague of mine (based in Moscow) discovered I was taking yoga classes a while back. She couldn't wrap her head around a straight guy doing yoga. I think she eventually decided I was only there to perv on the women in the class.
Quote from: KRonn on November 24, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
News is saying both Russian fighter bomber pilots are dead, shot at as they descending in parachutes. I heard audio of shooters on the ground yelling and shooting. Also video of the savages desecrating the body of at least one of the pilots. I'm sure Russians will be pissed about it, heck I'm pretty pissed about it. IMO Turkey needed to think this through, the implications, of a Russian plane briefly passing through their air space while maneuvering for bombing runs. Was it really a threat to Turkey that they needed to respond with lethal force? And what may result from a shoot down. Now the Russians certainly will want to respond in kind.
It is possible the guys on the ground were not under Turkish control. I haven't taken the time to develop a comprehensive list, but in my preliminary rankings of "places I don't want to parachute into", Northern Syria is quite high at the moment.
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
Quote from: KRonn on November 24, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
News is saying both Russian fighter bomber pilots are dead, shot at as they descending in parachutes. I heard audio of shooters on the ground yelling and shooting. Also video of the savages desecrating the body of at least one of the pilots. I'm sure Russians will be pissed about it, heck I'm pretty pissed about it. IMO Turkey needed to think this through, the implications, of a Russian plane briefly passing through their air space while maneuvering for bombing runs. Was it really a threat to Turkey that they needed to respond with lethal force? And what may result from a shoot down. Now the Russians certainly will want to respond in kind.
Sometimes you have to drive the point home that you're a sovereign nation. Russians seemed to have a very fluid understanding of other countries' borders lately.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking there are "good guy" factions with western european / american values to support.
But, while strategically important and significant, in some ways turkey is the most unfortunate nato member.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
Yeah, and the ones Russia was bombing.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking there are "good guy" factions with western european / american values to support.
But, while strategically important and significant, in some ways turkey is the most unfortunate nato member.
I dunno - they're probably the most useful member after the US, and maybe France.
Some pro-Western Russian bloggers are writing that this has caught Kremlin totally off-guard, and Putin has not made a statement for hours after the incident (which is usually a sign of him being unprepared). Compare to the Paris attacks when Putin offered condolences very quickly. Also, this essentially calls Putin's nuclear bluff; the rhetoric for the home audience has been "we'll turn the US into nuclear waste if there is a conflict with NATO", and now it will be shown to be so many empty words.
Erdogan got the Russian scalp he was looking for?
Quote from: KRonn on November 24, 2015, 01:12:50 PMNow the Russians certainly will want to respond in kind.
Putin will certainly give the Turkmen rebels a lot of extra attention via the Russian air force from now on.
Quote from: Solmyr on November 24, 2015, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
Yeah, and the ones Russia was bombing.
Here's my take on things. I doubt if the guys the US/West has been helping are much better than ISIS, including the guys who shot up Russkie pilots. If they were to get control of Syria I have to assume it'll be their brand of extremism. A few years ago when the Syrian civil war started and ISIS and other radicals supposedly weren't as big a part of the opposition to Assad, then maybe there were actually "moderates" in force and a good reason to support them. But even then the US claim was that we couldn't tell who was who so didn't do much. Now that so many more rebels of the extremist persuasion have joined the cause, now we seem to be a lot more active in arming rebels and continued insistence on ousting Assad. I figure once he goes then Syria becomes another Libya or Yemen, failed state.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
I assume this was a 'straw that broke the camel's back' situation. That is, that the Russians were needling the Turks with violations, until the Turks basically said 'next time they do it, then POW!'.
Apparently Russia had been violating Turkish airspace for well over a month already, and there had been previous incidents which didn't come to light when Turkish jets had to scramble because of Russian planes entering, as well as unidentified Migs (either Russian or Syrian) harassing Turkish jets. This is the first incident with real firepower involved, though.
Maybe now they'll also stay out of Swedish and Danish airspace!
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
Maybe now they'll also stay out of Swedish and Danish airspace!
I don't think the Turks fly that far. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
Maybe now they'll also stay out of Swedish and Danish airspace!
I don't think the Turks fly that far. ;)
:XD:
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
Maybe now they'll also stay out of Swedish and Danish airspace!
I don't think the Turks fly that far. ;)
We need to oust our social democratic overlords and install an Erdogan type figure to create a Scandinavian empire that won't think twice about shooting down a Russian plane into the Baltic. :angry:
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2015, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking there are "good guy" factions with western european / american values to support.
But, while strategically important and significant, in some ways turkey is the most unfortunate nato member.
I dunno - they're probably the most useful member after the US, and maybe France.
The UK?
But yes, while enormously useful, also led by Erdogan. Is what they bring to the table worth bringing to the table someone who doesn't really qualify as one of the good guys?
In the Cold War, Turkey in NATO was a no brainer. Not so sure anymore, but you can't really kick them out either.
Quote from: KRonn on November 24, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on November 24, 2015, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
Yeah, and the ones Russia was bombing.
Here's my take on things. I doubt if the guys the US/West has been helping are much better than ISIS, including the guys who shot up Russkie pilots. If they were to get control of Syria I have to assume it'll be their brand of extremism. A few years ago when the Syrian civil war started and ISIS and other radicals supposedly weren't as big a part of the opposition to Assad, then maybe there were actually "moderates" in force and a good reason to support them. But even then the US claim was that we couldn't tell who was who so didn't do much. Now that so many more rebels of the extremist persuasion have joined the cause, now we seem to be a lot more active in arming rebels and continued insistence on ousting Assad. I figure once he goes then Syria becomes another Libya or Yemen, failed state.
Yes, it's not good is it, Kronn.
And the civil war still has the potential to get a lot, lot worse, judging by historical standards and I mean by that proportionally less military and rebel deaths and a lot more civilian deaths. That based on the until recent breakdown* of casualties of around 30%military,30% rebel and 40% civilians killed in the war.
* based on what the Syrian human rights observatory was reporting.
Quote from: Solmyr on November 24, 2015, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Great, it looks like they fell in the territory of the rebels we've been helping.
Yeah, and the ones Russia was bombing.
Oh, the twisted webs we weave. The US and Russia are not only arming opposing forces but actively attacking those forces. Nobody would have done something this stupid in the Cold War.
Erdogan comments on the shooting down.
Quote
Turkish plane that reportedly strayed into its territory.
PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan told parliament that if Syrian troops approached Turkey's borders, they would be seen as a military threat.
Meanwhile Nato has expressed its condemnation of Syria's attack as well as strong support for Turkey.
Syria insists the F-4 Phantom jet was shot down inside Syrian airspace.
The plane crashed into the eastern Mediterranean and its two pilots are missing.
.....
Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey's "rage" at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom on 22 June and described Syria as a "clear and present threat".
"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. The Turkish jet was on a training flight, testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean, he said.
He made it clear that Turkey was adopting a "common sense" attitude, although that "shouldn't be perceived as a weakness".
"Every military element approaching Turkey from the Syrian border and representing a security risk and danger will be assessed as a military threat and will be treated as a military target," he said.
Turkey requested a meeting of the alliance's ambassadors in Brussels after invoking Article 4 of Nato's founding treaty, which entitles any member state to ask for consultations if it believes its security is threatened.
'Disregard for international norms'
In a statement, the alliance's 28 members said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".
Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said: "It is another example of the Syrian authorities' disregard for international norms. Nato allies will remain seized of developments."
Earlier, in a letter to the UN Security Council, Turkey described the shooting down of its reconnaissance plane as a "hostile act" and "a serious threat to peace and security in the region".
.....
Full article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18584872 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18584872)
Huh? That article is from June 2012...oh I get it.
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 11:23:04 AM
My first image when I read the thread title was a thanksgiving turkey (silly pilgrim hat and all) with a rocket launcher.
On topic, this could get interesting.
:lol:
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 24, 2015, 12:12:00 PM
Putin has basically called out Turkey for profiting from ISIS oil and supporting them.
I gotta say, I know that Turkey is a NATO ally but I don't know which side I despise more.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 12:37:10 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
This is also being discussed over in the main ISIS thread btw.
As I said there, if that map is accurate then the Russian flight time in Turkish airspace can only have been a few seconds.
Think about all the favorite languish topics of discussion this touches on:
Erdogan
Putin
General Military Shit
ISIS
NATO
If it turns out one of the russian pilots was homosexual, this will be the holy grail of languish topics, and likely be mentioned in every thread we have.
Siegy's singularity may be closer than we think.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:41:16 PM
Just so long as none of them took yoga classes, if that is the case then anything could happen.
A Russian colleague of mine (based in Moscow) discovered I was taking yoga classes a while back. She couldn't wrap her head around a straight guy doing yoga. I think she eventually decided I was only there to perv on the women in the class.
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
Huh? He is an adventure rock climber. That is exactly the sort of straight man that does Yoga
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:52:46 PM
Huh? That article is from June 2012...oh I get it.
monger is just being his old traitorous self. :P
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:59:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
Huh? He is an adventure rock climber. That is exactly the sort of straight man that does Yoga
Huh. I thought Dorsey is more like derspiess. Now I have to reevaluate my worldview. :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
I did for a while, but not recently.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 03:04:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
I did for a while, but not recently.
What kinda of yoga? Hatha? Kundalini?
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:56:47 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 12:37:10 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
This is also being discussed over in the main ISIS thread btw.
As I said there, if that map is accurate then the Russian flight time in Turkish airspace can only have been a few seconds.
Think about all the favorite languish topics of discussion this touches on:
Erdogan
Putin
General Military Shit
ISIS
NATO
If it turns out one of the russian pilots was homosexual, this will be the holy grail of languish topics, and likely be mentioned in every thread we have.
Siegy's singularity may be closer than we think.
needs more chinese
I am very conflicted on this, especially as the Polish media have started a ritual dance cheering on the Turks already. I have no love for either Putin and Erdogan. I would have felt better about it if the pilots weren't massacred as a result - they probably were just some kids, who were on a bomb run against ISIS, and they paid with their lives because of two assholes posturing.
Sorry for going all pinko on this. :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:05:40 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 03:04:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
WTF. You do yoga? Wow. My mental image of Dorsey is shattered.
I did for a while, but not recently.
What kinda of yoga? Hatha? Kundalini?
I have no idea. The gym at work had a fitness yoga class during lunch that I used to go to. I should look into starting again. :hmm:
Was it more like "standing on your head" yoga or "breathe and expand your aura" yoga?
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:13:36 PM
I am very conflicted on this, especially as the Polish media have started a ritual dance cheering on the Turks already. I have no love for either Putin and Erdogan. I would have felt better about it if the pilots weren't massacred as a result - they probably were just some kids, who were on a bomb run against ISIS, and they paid with their lives because of two assholes posturing.
Sorry for going all pinko on this. :P
in an ideal world the Turks and Russians finish of each other, ending up with the Greeks and half of the Paradox-forums to reclaim what's left for Byzantium.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:13:36 PM
I am very conflicted on this, especially as the Polish media have started a ritual dance cheering on the Turks already. I have no love for either Putin and Erdogan. I would have felt better about it if the pilots weren't massacred as a result - they probably were just some kids, who were on a bomb run against ISIS, and they paid with their lives because of two assholes posturing.
Sorry for going all pinko on this. :P
If it weren't for Turkey's NATO membership, then it would be just yet another bad player getting in the way of the 113 bad players already involved in the conflict. You'd want to sit back and let them beat the shit out of each other with conviction. I also wouldn't shed too many tears over the pilots; Russian bomber raids aren't exactly delicate surgeries. Not that I cheer on their lynching, but on the long, long list of victims of that war, they're not going to be anywhere near the top when it comes to sympathy.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:36:28 PM
Was it more like "standing on your head" yoga or "breathe and expand your aura" yoga?
Probably more like the former, but without anything as tough as standing on your head, as this was a class involving a lot of middle aged office women on lunch break.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2015, 04:11:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:36:28 PM
Was it more like "standing on your head" yoga or "breathe and expand your aura" yoga?
Probably more like the former, but without anything as tough as standing on your head, as this was a class involving a lot of middle aged office women on lunch break.
Ah ok, so probably some form of hatha yoga light. I prefered kundalini yoga, mainly because I hate standing on my head.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 04:15:29 PM
Ah ok, so probably some form of hatha yoga light. I prefered kundalini yoga, mainly because I hate standing on my head.
I was going in order to improve flexibility and core strength. What kept me from continuing was I just didn't see much improvement, and I suspect that I actually ended up straining muscles (probably because the competitive side took over, and seeing a flexible woman in a pose made me try to match it regardless of whether that was a good idea).
Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2015, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 04:28:04 PM
He did yoga?
Not in the Russia vs. Turkey WWIII thread.
Martinus kept asking me questions (last time excepted). Can I blame him?
I'm sorry if we made your war boner go limp. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2015, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 04:28:04 PM
He did yoga?
Not in the Russia vs. Turkey WWIII thread.
The guy could walk on water, I'm sure he could do yoga without one of those yoga mats (can we still call them yoga mats?).
Quote from: KRonn on November 24, 2015, 01:12:50 PM. I'm sure Russians will be pissed about it, heck I'm pretty pissed about it.
1980's KRonn is crying. :weep:
Supposedly this is Russia's version of events:
(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/2nMnWxV0.png)
That's quite a sharp turn they took right before falling. No wonder the pilots are dead, the g forces must've been into thousands.
Shooting pilots in their parachutes does seem rather dishonorable.
Also forbidden by the Geneva convention IIRC, though I am not sure how well it applies here. Armed conflict, yes but not legitimate war with war declaration and clearly defined enemies.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:55:28 PM
I gotta say, I know that Turkey is a NATO ally but I don't know which side I despise more.
Yeah, that's pretty much the way the Brits felt when the Nazis attacked the Poles in 1939.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 24, 2015, 07:31:50 PM
Also forbidden by the Geneva convention IIRC, though I am not sure how well it applies here. Armed conflict, yes but not legitimate war with war declaration and clearly defined enemies.
The GC doesn't require any of that. It applied, for instance, to the Vietnam Wars.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/mideast-crisis-usa-france-idUSL8N13J5ER20151125
Quote[...]
A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the United States believed the Russian jet was hit inside Syrian air space after a brief incursion into Turkish air space. The assessment was based on heat observed from the jet, the official said.
[...]
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 24, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:13:36 PM
I am very conflicted on this, especially as the Polish media have started a ritual dance cheering on the Turks already. I have no love for either Putin and Erdogan. I would have felt better about it if the pilots weren't massacred as a result - they probably were just some kids, who were on a bomb run against ISIS, and they paid with their lives because of two assholes posturing.
Sorry for going all pinko on this. :P
in an ideal world the Turks and Russians finish of each other, ending up with the Greeks and half of the Paradox-forums to reclaim what's left for Byzantium.
I call Attaleia.
A Dutch tour operator is advertising trips to Turkey "now without Russian tourists!"
Quote from: Maladict on November 26, 2015, 01:49:10 AM
A Dutch tour operator is advertising trips to Turkey "now without Russian tourists!"
:pinch: :lmfao:
That might actually be a good touristic draw. :lol:
Without Russian tourists places like Antalya might be basically empty.
Speaking of Russian tourists I got a facebook message from a friend of my mother asking if I could translate this for a hotel she's working at:
You're not allowed to take food from the buffet outside of the restaurant.
:borshch:
Quote from: Maladict on November 26, 2015, 01:49:10 AM
A Dutch tour operator is advertising trips to Turkey "now without Russian tourists!"
:lol:
Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2015, 09:03:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:55:28 PM
I gotta say, I know that Turkey is a NATO ally but I don't know which side I despise more.
Yeah, that's pretty much the way the Brits felt when the Nazis attacked the Poles in 1939.
No argument there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/world/europe/russia-turkey-plane-downing.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteKremlin Cutting Economic Links With the Turks
MOSCOW — The downing of a Russian warplane by Turkey threatened to lead to a wholesale breach in the countries' relations on Thursday, with the Kremlin preparing to sever economic ties and Turkish officials saying they had no reason to apologize.
Prime Minister Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia gave government officials two days to draw up a list of ways to curb economic links and investment projects. That included the possible shelving of a multibillion-dollar deal to build a gas pipeline through Turkey that President Vladimir V. Putin had trumpeted as a welcome alternative route for Russian gas exports to Europe.
Mr. Putin and his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, stoked the confrontation by hurling insults at each other and demanding redress.
"We have still not heard any comprehensible apologies from the Turkish political leaders, or any offers to compensate for the damage caused, or promises to punish the criminals for their crime," Mr. Putin said at the Kremlin. He reiterated Russia's position that the warplane was brought down on Tuesday over Syria, not Turkey.
"One gets the impression that the Turkish leaders are deliberately leading Russian-Turkish relations into a gridlock," Mr. Putin said, adding later in the day: "Turkey was our friend, almost an ally, and it is a shame that this was destroyed in such a foolish manner."
The standoff between the two prideful leaders boded ill for the mission of President François Hollande of France, who met with Mr. Putin in Moscow on Thursday as part of his effort after the Paris attacks to cement an international coalition to confront the Islamic State. Moscow and Ankara had already been divided over the future of President Bashar al-Assad of Syria. Turkey insisted that he step aside, while Russia called Mr. Assad a central ally in the fight against the Islamic State.
The downing of the Russian plane inflamed that rift. Mr. Erdogan maintained Thursday that Turkey was protecting its airspace from Russian incursions. "Faced with the same violation today, Turkey would give the same response," he said. "It's the country that carried out the violation which should question itself and take measures to prevent it from happening again, not the country that was subjected to a violation."
Later, Mr. Erdogan appeared to soften his remarks somewhat, telling France 24 television: "We might have been able to prevent this violation of our airspace differently."
During a news conference with Mr. Hollande late Thursday, Mr. Putin suggested that the United States, an ally of Turkey, was responsible for the fate of its warplane, since Moscow had passed on information about where and when its bombers would fly.
"What did we give this information to the Americans for?" Mr. Putin asked, rhetorically, before adding: "We proceed from the assumption that it will never happen again. Otherwise we don't need any such cooperation with any country."
Immediately after Turkey shot down the Russian warplane on Tuesday, senior officials in Moscow and Ankara vowed that they wanted to limit any larger conflict. Given that Turkey is a member of NATO, any military confrontation risks pulling in its Western allies.
But the economic, geographic and historically competitive ties that bind the two faded empires are facing new strains. At the very least, the tension will hamper chances of resolving the bloody war in Syria.
The Turkish foreign minister, Mevlut Cavusoglu, said that while he had expressed regret over the episode in a telephone call on Wednesday to his Russian counterpart, Sergey V. Lavrov, there would be no apology.
"We do not need to apologize on an occasion that we are right," Mr. Cavusoglu said.
Maria Zakharova, the spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, objected to the failure of Turkish or NATO officials to offer condolences over the two Russian military men who died after the plane was shot down. She also demanded an explanation from Turkey about the death of the pilot, who was killed after he parachuted from the plane. It is believed he was shot by Turkmen insurgents who live along the border on the Syrian side and who are supported by Ankara.
The insurgents have accused the Russian Air Force of hitting their positions especially hard after the downing, in areas distant from Islamic State strongholds.
"We think it is justified to intensify our airstrikes," Mr. Putin said Thursday, suggesting that Russia will respond to the episode with more such attacks rather than with a direct military challenge to Turkey.
Even before any formal plans for economic sanctions were drawn up, Russia was already retaliating. Moscow has a long history of suddenly discovering faults with the goods and services of other nations when diplomatic relations sour.
Hundreds of trucks bearing Turkish fruits, vegetables and other products were lining up at the Georgian border with Russia, Russian news media reported, as inspections slowed to a crawl and Russian officials suggested there might be a terrorist threat from the goods.
"This is only natural in light of Turkey's unpredictable actions," Dmitri S. Peskov, the presidential spokesman, told reporters.
In the Krasnodar region, a group of 39 Turkish businessmen attending an agriculture exhibition were detained for entering Russia on tourist rather than business visas — a common practice — and were slated for deportation, according to a report on the website of the Rossiyskaya Gazeta newspaper.
Government officials announced that a special year of cultural exchanges planned for all of 2016 would be canceled.
The biggest question about possible economic fallout hung over major energy projects, including the gas pipeline across the Black Sea and the construction of Turkey's first nuclear power plant.
Alexei Ulyukayev, the minister of economic development, said on Thursday that both the pipeline, known as the Turkish Stream, and the Akkuyu nuclear power plant project might be included on any sanctions list.
Gazprom was expected to invest some $10 billion in the pipeline project. Russia had been seeking to build the $22 billon South Stream project to avoid sending gas across Ukraine, given its conflict with its neighbor, but balked at the sharing conditions set by the European Union.
The Russian government warned against tourism to Turkey, and most major tour operators stopped selling vacation packages. Turkey is among the most popular destinations for the Russian middle class.
Sanctions could be damaging for both countries, even if trade was down in 2015 from a year earlier. Russia was the biggest source of Turkish imports in 2014, some $25 billion or 10 percent of the total, according to an analysis by Renaissance Capital, much of it most likely natural gas. Turkey exported $6 billion worth of goods to Russia in 2014, 4 percent of all exports, and nearly 4.5 million Russians visited last year, according to the analysis.
Russia does not always use a calculator in making sanctions decisions. In 2014, when the West imposed economic sanctions for the Russian annexation of Crimea from Ukraine, the Kremlin responded by banning food from the West. That caused a surge in prices for Russian consumers.
Some Russian commentators mocked the prospect of sanctions against Turkey in response to the warplane downing.
"Russia's response to a loss of a military jet, to an actual declaration of war, involved a ban on chicken imports and a ban on its tourists going on vacation to Turkey," Arkady Babchenko, a Russian journalist, wrote on his Facebook page. "That's the whole set of tools this 'energy superpower' was able to set forth to project geopolitical influence when it came to real matters."
But the Ottoman Empire, Turkey's ancestor, was a bloody rival of the Russian Empire, and the confrontation over the warplane mostly evoked a patriotic response across social media.
"The Turkish people have never been our friends — artful, cunning and hypocritical," wrote one man on Facebook, while another vowed that "I will not go to Turkey or buy Turkish products."
Other Russians lashed out directly at the man who was clashing with their president. "Erdogan completely lost the sense of reality — no good will come of it — not for him, not for Turkey," wrote Igor Korotchenko, a military analyst, on Twitter.
Good. Especially as Turkey is apparently Russia's fourth trading partner. :shifty:
Does anyone like Turkey?
Once again Turkey mismanages a position form being everyone's natural ally to everyone's enemy.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
There were a lot of pleasant people in Istanbul when I was there, friendly westernised folk; one has to feel sorrow for them as Erdogan takes them down the wrong path.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
I very much enjoyed my time there. Food is nice, plenty of historical sites around and as a rule people are _amazingly_ helpful.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.
We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.
Quote from: Tamas on November 27, 2015, 12:57:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.
We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.
:lol: You guys keep saying that, what the examples of "Islamist" laws being passed?
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 03:05:40 PM
What kinda of yoga? Hatha? Kundalini?
I have done the stretchy kind. I like pilates better though, feel it's a better workout.
Should get back into that, my back feels incredibly sore lately.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
Yes, especially when soaked in gravy. :mmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 01:00:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 27, 2015, 12:57:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.
We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.
:lol: You guys keep saying that, what the examples of "Islamist" laws being passed?
The problem is that he is working from the same playbook the militarists were - including brutal press repression, corruption, electoral subversion, and his cynical pre-election assault on the Kurds. At least the militarists traded power back and forth, in between the occasional coup.
I don't fault him for this episode though - the Russians repeatedly violated Turkish sovereignty, and were warned repeatedly, and elected to ignore the warnings. It seems quite harsh in isolation but it didn't happen in isolation.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 27, 2015, 11:50:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 01:00:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 27, 2015, 12:57:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2015, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 27, 2015, 05:15:02 AM
Does anyone like Turkey?
People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.
We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.
:lol: You guys keep saying that, what the examples of "Islamist" laws being passed?
The problem is that he is working from the same playbook the militarists were - including brutal press repression, corruption, electoral subversion, and his cynical pre-election assault on the Kurds. At least the militarists traded power back and forth, in between the occasional coup.
I don't fault him for this episode though - the Russians repeatedly violated Turkish sovereignty, and were warned repeatedly, and elected to ignore the warnings. It seems quite harsh in isolation but it didn't happen in isolation.
Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem. He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the
fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results. I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people. One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself. Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.
https://www.rt.com/news/324263-russia-briefing-isis-funding/
QuoteRussia says Turkish leadership involved in illegal oil trade with ISIS
Turkey's leadership, including President Erdogan and his family, is involved in illegal oil trade with Islamic State militants, says the Russian Defense Ministry, stressing that Turkey is the final destination for oil smuggled from Syria and Iraq.
According to Deputy Minister Anatoly Antonov, Russia is aware of three main oil smuggling routes to Turkey.
However, since the start of Russia's anti-terrorist operation in Syria on September 30, the income of Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS) militants from illegal oil smuggling has been significantly reduced, the ministry said.
"The income of this terrorist organization was about $3 million per day. After two months of Russian airstrikes their income was about $1.5 million a day," Lieutenant-General Sergey Rudskoy said.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 28, 2015, 12:47:57 AM
Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem. He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results. I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people. One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself. Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.
Do you actually like Erdogan or do you just despise DG and Tamas? I am having a hard time here and am having a hard time digesting your triumphant apologism. 'He loves the Kurds he is only waging war on them because of evil Kemalists' I mean WTF is that shit Raz? So therefore Erdogan is awesome and you support him?
Maybe I want to hear what you think and not bizarre rants about what 'everybody' thinks. Everybody can fucking speak for themselves.
Quote from: Valmy on December 02, 2015, 10:08:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 28, 2015, 12:47:57 AM
Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem. He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results. I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people. One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself. Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.
Do you actually like Erdogan or do you just despise DG and Tamas? I am having a hard time here and am having a hard time digesting your triumphant apologism. 'He loves the Kurds he is only waging war on them because of evil Kemalists' I mean WTF is that shit Raz? So therefore Erdogan is awesome and you support him?
Maybe I want to hear what you think and not bizarre rants about what 'everybody' thinks. Everybody can fucking speak for themselves.
That's a rhetorical question right? Raz acts more and more like grumbler on meds.
I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.
Quote from: Tamas on December 02, 2015, 10:16:55 AM
That's a rhetorical question right? Raz acts more and more like grumbler on meds.
Fuck you, asshole. That kind of chickenshit insult says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me.
Quote from: Syt on December 02, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.
not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 02, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 02, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.
not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.
I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.
Quote from: KRonn on December 02, 2015, 02:37:05 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 02, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 02, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.
not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.
I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.
Maybe they hope to make some land grab if there's anarchy? Or maybe Assad pissed them off seriously because he's not enough of a fundamentalist?
Quote from: KRonn on December 02, 2015, 02:37:05 PM
I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.
I think they were somewhat friendly with Assad, until they decided to support the uprising - being more sympathetic to the Sunni majority than to Assad's Alawites. After that, maybe it was an "all in" kind of situation.
Quote from: KRonn on December 02, 2015, 02:37:05 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 02, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 02, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.
not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.
I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.
It's what they say about a "hell hath no fury like a Turk scorned".
Edrogan had tried a charm offensive for years with Assad. Tried to open up relations and trade. It was showing fruit. But when the arab spring came about Edrogan really encouraged Assad to try and open up and liberalize. Assad though went with terror and repression, and went back to his old mentors in Iran and Russia.
So, Edrogan supported the rebels. This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.
Quote from: Barrister on December 02, 2015, 05:34:52 PM
So, Edrogan supported the rebels. This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.
Kurds are also vying for target #1--probably are target #1 even--and they are also fighting ISIS.
Also, there are some rather extreme elements in Turkey like the Grey Wolves -- and those elements support Edrogan.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 02, 2015, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 02, 2015, 05:34:52 PM
So, Edrogan supported the rebels. This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.
Kurds are also vying for target #1--probably are target #1 even--and they are also fighting ISIS.
Also, there are some rather extreme elements in Turkey like the Grey Wolves -- and those elements support Edrogan.
The Grey Wolves are an offshoot of the fascists in Turkey, they don't support Erdogan. They are generally counted as his enemies.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2015, 06:15:56 PM
The Grey Wolves are an offshoot of the fascists in Turkey, they don't support Erdogan. They are generally counted as his enemies.
I don't think Kemalism is a fascist movement, but fair point on the grey wolves not supporting erdogan.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 28, 2015, 12:47:57 AM
Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem. He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results. I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people. One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself. Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.
This is really an enormous load.
He didn't restart a war with Kurds to pander to his political opponents - he did it because a Kurdish-based political party managed to attract non-Kurdish votes and get into Parliament, thereby scuttling his plan to secure a 2/3 majority and amend the constitution to make him a Putin-like President fort Life. At least the "Kemalists" oppressed the Kurds out of some sense of nationalist principle, Gollum did it as a personal political tactic.
No he didn't apply Sharia -- the constitution that he failed to secure the majority to amend prohibits that -- but he has turned a blind eye to ISIS transits through Turkish territory and obstructed the only useful fighting force in the region taking on ISIS - again in the name of his politically motivated anti-Kurdish turn.
Yes it's true that the military regimes in the past disappeared human rights activists and journalists like Gollum is doing now, and shut down independent media like Gollum is doing now. How is that an excuse?
He is a bad, bad guy and for the life of me I can't figure out why you keep making excuses for him. It's like giving Putin a pass because he isn't Brezhnev.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 02, 2015, 06:56:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 28, 2015, 12:47:57 AM
Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem. He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results. I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people. One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself. Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.
This is really an enormous load.
He didn't restart a war with Kurds to pander to his political opponents - he did it because a Kurdish-based political party managed to attract non-Kurdish votes and get into Parliament, thereby scuttling his plan to secure a 2/3 majority and amend the constitution to make him a Putin-like President fort Life. At least the "Kemalists" oppressed the Kurds out of some sense of nationalist principle, Gollum did it as a personal political tactic.
No he didn't apply Sharia -- the constitution that he failed to secure the majority to amend prohibits that -- but he has turned a blind eye to ISIS transits through Turkish territory and obstructed the only useful fighting force in the region taking on ISIS - again in the name of his politically motivated anti-Kurdish turn.
Yes it's true that the military regimes in the past disappeared human rights activists and journalists like Gollum is doing now, and shut down independent media like Gollum is doing now. How is that an excuse?
He is a bad, bad guy and for the life of me I can't figure out why you keep making excuses for him. It's like giving Putin a pass because he isn't Brezhnev.
The argument is that "Gollum" should be overthrown. Presumably by the Militarists, If they just do the same thing he does, then what is the improvement? If he is the Islamist figure that everyone says he is, then why hasn't he install the theocracy yet? He's been at this for a long time. Like all the conspiracy theories that the some political figure is on the verge of installing the New Order it looks sillier every year.
The renewed war against he Kurds has been popular. I agree that it is a political tactic, but it did pander to the nationalists, who are the "good guys" on this board. Let me ask you though, who do you think was responsible for the suicide bombings in Turkey this year.
Also Putin is better then Brezhnev.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2015, 07:12:05 PM
The argument is that "Gollum" should be overthrown.
Who is saying this?
It would be nice to restore a free press, scrap the BS lese majeste laws, the corruption, the intimidation. He'd probably still win elections but at least the opposition would have a level playing field.
QuotePresumably by the Militarists,
Who are these "Militarists" you are talking about. Certainly not the actual people in charge of the armed forces in Turkey now who are on Erdogan's leash. And not the sad sack retired geriatrics swept up in the dragnet of the Kafkaesque Sledgehammmer prosecutions - an ugly example of political score-settling by Gulenists now on the Gollum enemies list.
DG, Marty, Tamas. There were some others back during the protests in 2013. I was given to understand that if Erdogan was to be overthrown, his party banned, his supporters jailed or murdered in the street like what happened in Egypt that this would be desirable.
As a matter of fact, I had a second cousin who ran afoul of the Lese Majeste laws back during the first Gulf War. The Air Force had to spirit his ass out the country. By Militarists I refer to the Kemalists and the CHP. You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing. I'd say it's a positive development.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2015, 07:37:28 PM
You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing. I'd say it's a positive development.
No I am suggesting that erdogan has gone full in the other direction, first forging a political alliance with the army to combat the Gulenists, then cementing that alliance by unleashing the generals against the Kurds in an effort to beat down the rising political challenge of the HDP.
He has gone full circle and become everything he once fought against. The Deep State lives, but it is now an AKP Deep State. You don't see it because you are still trapped in the world of 25 years ago. The MHP is dying organization, they barely made it into Parliament last election.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 02, 2015, 07:52:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2015, 07:37:28 PM
You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing. I'd say it's a positive development.
No I am suggesting that erdogan has gone full in the other direction, first forging a political alliance with the army to combat the Gulenists, then cementing that alliance by unleashing the generals against the Kurds in an effort to beat down the rising political challenge of the HDP.
He has gone full circle and become everything he once fought against. The Deep State lives, but it is now an AKP Deep State. You don't see it because you are still trapped in the world of 25 years ago. The MHP is dying organization, they barely made it into Parliament last election.
The Deep State is a notion I've only recently come across, but it seems to make sense to a lot of Turks and does explain some of the states more troubling behaviour.
Where did you get this impression that the HDP is some big thing that is a challenge to the AKP? I thought the MHP does better then they do in elections.
And God knows I wish I was trapped in the world 25 years ago.
It should surprise no one that this whole affair was actually America's fault.
https://www.rt.com/news/325887-russia-us-kerry-visit/
QuoteUS failed to prevent Turkey from downing Russian jet despite air safety deal – Moscow
As the leader of the international coalition against Islamic State, the US failed to ensure the implementation by its Turkish allies of the Syria air safety agreement, which was signed between Moscow and Washington, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
"Despite the fact, that the defense ministries of the two countries (the US and Russia) signed a memorandum on ensuring the safety of military aviation flights in Syrian airspace, Washington - which took the responsibility for the actions of the entire coalition it leads - hasn't ensured compliance with the relevant provisions of the document by its ally Turkey," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Monday.
Russia and the US signed an agreement regulating the operations of the two countries' air forces over Syria on October 20.
The memorandum established 24/7 communication channels between Russian and American military commanders, in order to prevent incidents and provide for the smooth operation of the two nations' aircraft, and for mutual aid in critical situations.
As part of the deal, the American side pledged to convey the details of the deal to their anti-Islamic State coalition partners, to follow the rules it sets.
In other news: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-warship-fires-warning-shots-at-turkish-fishing-boat-in-aegean-sea/552709.html
QuoteRussian Warship Fires Warning Shots at Turkish Fishing Boat in Aegean Sea
A Russian warship fired warning shots at a Turkish fishing boat to avoid a collision in the Aegean Sea on Sunday, the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement.
Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov summoned the Turkish Embassy's military attache in Moscow over the incident, the statement said.
The crew of the Russian destroyer Smetlivy spotted an unidentified Turkish fishing boat at a distance of about 1 kilometer, headed for a collision with the anchored Russian warship, the ministry said.
"Despite numerous attempts by the Smetlivy, the crew of the Turkish vessel did not make radio contact with the Russian sailors and did not respond to special visual signals by semaphore and warning flares," the ministry said.
When the boat approached to within 600 meters of the Smetlivy, the Russian crew fired warning shots "guaranteed" to be non-lethal, the statement said. The Turkish boat "abruptly changed its course," passing within 540 meters of the Russian warship without making contact, according to the statement.
But Muzaffer Gecici, the owner of the Turkish fishing boat Gecici Balikcilik, disputed the Russian account on the incident, CNN Turk reported.
The boat never came within a mile of the Russian warship, and the crew did not hear any warning shots, Gecici said, adding that video footage of the encounter had been handed over to Turkish authorities, CNN Turk reported.
The incident comes amid increasingly tense relations between Moscow and Ankara over Turkey's shooting down of a Russian bomber plane near the Turkish-Syrian border on Nov. 24.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35449152
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