Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

[alfred russel]

The Grey Wolves are an offshoot of the fascists in Turkey, they don't support Erdogan.  They are generally counted as his enemies.

I don't think Kemalism is a fascist movement, but fair point on the grey wolves not supporting erdogan.

[The Minsky Moment]

Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem.  He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results.  I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people.  One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself.  Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.

This is really an enormous load.
He didn't restart a war with Kurds to pander to his political opponents - he did it because a Kurdish-based political party managed to attract non-Kurdish votes and get into Parliament, thereby scuttling his plan to secure a 2/3 majority and amend the constitution to make him a Putin-like President fort Life.    At least the "Kemalists" oppressed the Kurds out of some sense of nationalist principle, Gollum did it as a personal political tactic.
No he didn't apply Sharia -- the constitution that he failed to secure the majority to amend prohibits that -- but he has turned a blind eye to ISIS transits through Turkish territory and obstructed the only useful fighting force in the region taking on ISIS - again in the name of his politically motivated anti-Kurdish turn.
Yes it's true that the military regimes in the past disappeared human rights activists and journalists like Gollum is doing now, and shut down independent media like Gollum is doing now.  How is that an excuse?
He is a bad, bad guy and for the life of me I can't figure out why you keep making excuses for him.  It's like giving Putin a pass because he isn't Brezhnev.

[Razgovory]

Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem.  He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results.  I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people.  One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself.  Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.

This is really an enormous load.
He didn't restart a war with Kurds to pander to his political opponents - he did it because a Kurdish-based political party managed to attract non-Kurdish votes and get into Parliament, thereby scuttling his plan to secure a 2/3 majority and amend the constitution to make him a Putin-like President fort Life.    At least the "Kemalists" oppressed the Kurds out of some sense of nationalist principle, Gollum did it as a personal political tactic.
No he didn't apply Sharia -- the constitution that he failed to secure the majority to amend prohibits that -- but he has turned a blind eye to ISIS transits through Turkish territory and obstructed the only useful fighting force in the region taking on ISIS - again in the name of his politically motivated anti-Kurdish turn.
Yes it's true that the military regimes in the past disappeared human rights activists and journalists like Gollum is doing now, and shut down independent media like Gollum is doing now.  How is that an excuse?
He is a bad, bad guy and for the life of me I can't figure out why you keep making excuses for him.  It's like giving Putin a pass because he isn't Brezhnev.

The argument is that "Gollum" should be overthrown.  Presumably by the Militarists,  If they just do the same thing he does, then what is the improvement?  If he is the Islamist figure that everyone says he is, then why hasn't he install the theocracy yet?  He's been at this for a long time.  Like all the conspiracy theories that the some political figure is on the verge of installing the New Order it looks sillier every year.

The renewed war against he Kurds has been popular.  I agree that it is a political tactic, but it did pander to the nationalists, who are the "good guys" on this board.  Let me ask you though, who do you think was responsible for the suicide bombings in Turkey this year.

Also Putin is better then Brezhnev.

[The Minsky Moment]

The argument is that "Gollum" should be overthrown.

Who is saying this?
It would be nice to restore a free press, scrap the BS lese majeste laws, the corruption, the intimidation.  He'd probably still win elections but at least the opposition would have a level playing field. 

Presumably by the Militarists,

Who are these "Militarists" you are talking about.  Certainly not the actual people in charge of the armed forces in Turkey now who are on Erdogan's leash.  And not the sad sack retired geriatrics swept up in the dragnet of the Kafkaesque Sledgehammmer prosecutions - an ugly example of political score-settling by Gulenists now on the Gollum enemies list.

[Razgovory]

DG, Marty, Tamas.  There were some others back during the protests in 2013.  I was given to understand that if Erdogan was to be overthrown, his party banned, his supporters jailed or murdered in the street like what happened in Egypt that this would be desirable.

As a matter of fact, I had a second cousin who ran afoul of the Lese Majeste laws back during the first Gulf War.  The Air Force had to spirit his ass out the country.  By Militarists I refer to the Kemalists and the CHP.  You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing.  I'd say it's a positive development.

[mongers]

......

Also Putin is better then Brezhnev.

[The Minsky Moment]

  You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing.  I'd say it's a positive development.

No I am suggesting that erdogan has gone full in the other direction, first forging a political alliance with the army to combat the Gulenists, then cementing that alliance by unleashing the generals against the Kurds in an effort to beat down the rising political challenge of the HDP. 

He has gone full circle and become everything he once fought against.  The Deep State lives, but it is now an AKP Deep State.  You don't see it because you are still trapped in the world of 25 years ago.  The MHP is dying organization, they barely made it into Parliament last election.

[mongers]

  You talk as if the military being leashed by the civilian branch of government is a bad thing.  I'd say it's a positive development.

No I am suggesting that erdogan has gone full in the other direction, first forging a political alliance with the army to combat the Gulenists, then cementing that alliance by unleashing the generals against the Kurds in an effort to beat down the rising political challenge of the HDP. 

He has gone full circle and become everything he once fought against.  The Deep State lives, but it is now an AKP Deep State.  You don't see it because you are still trapped in the world of 25 years ago.  The MHP is dying organization, they barely made it into Parliament last election.

The Deep State is a notion I've only recently come across, but it seems to make sense to a lot of Turks and does explain some of the states more troubling behaviour.

[Razgovory]

Where did you get this impression that the HDP is some big thing that is a challenge to the AKP?  I thought the MHP does better then they do in elections.

And God knows I wish I was trapped in the world 25 years ago.

[Syt]

It should surprise no one that this whole affair was actually America's fault.

https://www.rt.com/news/325887-russia-us-kerry-visit/

US failed to prevent Turkey from downing Russian jet despite air safety deal – Moscow

As the leader of the international coalition against Islamic State, the US failed to ensure the implementation by its Turkish allies of the Syria air safety agreement, which was signed between Moscow and Washington, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.


"Despite the fact, that the defense ministries of the two countries (the US and Russia) signed a memorandum on ensuring the safety of military aviation flights in Syrian airspace, Washington - which took the responsibility for the actions of the entire coalition it leads - hasn't ensured compliance with the relevant provisions of the document by its ally Turkey," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Monday.

Russia and the US signed an agreement regulating the operations of the two countries' air forces over Syria on October 20.

The memorandum established 24/7 communication channels between Russian and American military commanders, in order to prevent incidents and provide for the smooth operation of the two nations' aircraft, and for mutual aid in critical situations.

As part of the deal, the American side pledged to convey the details of the deal to their anti-Islamic State coalition partners, to follow the rules it sets.

In other news: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-warship-fires-warning-shots-at-turkish-fishing-boat-in-aegean-sea/552709.html

Russian Warship Fires Warning Shots at Turkish Fishing Boat in Aegean Sea

A Russian warship fired warning shots at a Turkish fishing boat to avoid a collision in the Aegean Sea on Sunday, the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement.

Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov summoned the Turkish Embassy's military attache in Moscow over the incident, the statement said.

The crew of the Russian destroyer Smetlivy spotted an unidentified Turkish fishing boat at a distance of about 1 kilometer, headed for a collision with the anchored Russian warship, the ministry said.

"Despite numerous attempts by the Smetlivy, the crew of the Turkish vessel did not make radio contact with the Russian sailors and did not respond to special visual signals by semaphore and warning flares," the ministry said.

When the boat approached to within 600 meters of the Smetlivy, the Russian crew fired warning shots "guaranteed" to be non-lethal, the statement said. The Turkish boat "abruptly changed its course," passing within 540 meters of the Russian warship without making contact, according to the statement.

But Muzaffer Gecici, the owner of the Turkish fishing boat Gecici Balikcilik, disputed the Russian account on the incident, CNN Turk reported.

The boat never came within a mile of the Russian warship, and the crew did not hear any warning shots, Gecici said, adding that video footage of the encounter had been handed over to Turkish authorities, CNN Turk reported.

The incident comes amid increasingly tense relations between Moscow and Ankara over Turkey's shooting down of a Russian bomber plane near the Turkish-Syrian border on Nov. 24.

[Syt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35449152

Turkey claims Russian plane violated its airspace and summons ambassador
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