Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

[Eddie Teach]

Does anyone like Turkey?

Yes, especially when soaked in gravy.

[The Minsky Moment]

Does anyone like Turkey?

People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.

We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.

  You guys keep saying that, what the examples of "Islamist" laws being passed?

The problem is that he is working from the same playbook the militarists were - including brutal press repression, corruption, electoral subversion, and his cynical pre-election assault on the Kurds.   At least the militarists traded power back and forth, in between the occasional coup.

I don't fault him for this episode though - the Russians repeatedly violated Turkish sovereignty, and were warned repeatedly, and elected to ignore the warnings.  It seems quite harsh in isolation but it didn't happen in isolation.

[Razgovory]

Does anyone like Turkey?

People here are unhappy that the genocidal militarists are not in power anymore.

We have a genocidal megalomaniac Islamist in power now.

  You guys keep saying that, what the examples of "Islamist" laws being passed?

The problem is that he is working from the same playbook the militarists were - including brutal press repression, corruption, electoral subversion, and his cynical pre-election assault on the Kurds.   At least the militarists traded power back and forth, in between the occasional coup.

I don't fault him for this episode though - the Russians repeatedly violated Turkish sovereignty, and were warned repeatedly, and elected to ignore the warnings.  It seems quite harsh in isolation but it didn't happen in isolation.

Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem.  He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results.  I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people.  One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself.  Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.

[Syt]

https://www.rt.com/news/324263-russia-briefing-isis-funding/

Russia says Turkish leadership involved in illegal oil trade with ISIS

Turkey's leadership, including President Erdogan and his family, is involved in illegal oil trade with Islamic State militants, says the Russian Defense Ministry, stressing that Turkey is the final destination for oil smuggled from Syria and Iraq.

According to Deputy Minister Anatoly Antonov, Russia is aware of three main oil smuggling routes to Turkey.

However, since the start of Russia's anti-terrorist operation in Syria on September 30, the income of Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS) militants from illegal oil smuggling has been significantly reduced, the ministry said.

"The income of this terrorist organization was about $3 million per day. After two months of Russian airstrikes their income was about $1.5 million a day," Lieutenant-General Sergey Rudskoy said.

[Valmy]

Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem.  He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results.  I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people.  One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself.  Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.

Do you actually like Erdogan or do you just despise DG and Tamas? I am having a hard time here and am having a hard time digesting your triumphant apologism. 'He loves the Kurds he is only waging war on them because of evil Kemalists' I mean WTF is that shit Raz? So therefore Erdogan is awesome and you support him?

Maybe I want to hear what you think and not bizarre rants about what 'everybody' thinks. Everybody can fucking speak for themselves.

[Tamas]

Since everyone is in favor of the militarists, then there is no problem.  He actually had pretty good relations with the Kurds for most of his run, he pandered to the fascists I mean, Kemalists this last election by waging war on the Kurds (though to be honest the suicide bombings from the Kurdish camp helped him quite a bit in that), so really Tamas and DG and the rest should be happy with the results.  I mean despite nearly a decade and half of "Islamist" rule in Turkey he failed to install Sharia law, women walk unveiled in the street and the government isn't publicly stoning people.  One wonders how this "Islamism", actually manifests itself.  Perhaps, the term "Islamist", is actually used by his political enemies and was picked up by the usual suspects in the West provoking untold hand-wringing among the more tolerate of us.

Do you actually like Erdogan or do you just despise DG and Tamas? I am having a hard time here and am having a hard time digesting your triumphant apologism. 'He loves the Kurds he is only waging war on them because of evil Kemalists' I mean WTF is that shit Raz? So therefore Erdogan is awesome and you support him?

Maybe I want to hear what you think and not bizarre rants about what 'everybody' thinks. Everybody can fucking speak for themselves.

That's a rhetorical question right? Raz acts more and more like grumbler on meds.

[Syt]

I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.

[grumbler]

That's a rhetorical question right? Raz acts more and more like grumbler on meds.

Fuck you, asshole.  That kind of chickenshit insult says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.

not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.

[KRonn]

I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.

not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.

I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.

[viper37]

I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.

not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.

I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.

Maybe they hope to make some land grab if there's anarchy?  Or maybe Assad pissed them off seriously because he's not enough of a fundamentalist?

[Jacob]

I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.

I think they were somewhat friendly with Assad, until they decided to support the uprising - being more sympathetic to the Sunni majority than to Assad's Alawites. After that, maybe it was an "all in" kind of situation.

[Barrister]

I wonder what Turkey's move after the new allegations from Russia will be. Erdogan said he would step down if a connection between the Turkish government and ISIS oil trade was proven. Obviously he will reject any and all proof that will be presented, short of him driving an oil truck with IS markings across the border, but it's still an allegation that he can't just ignore.

not that I like the Russians, or rather the current Putin version, but I'd really really like it they can prove their allegations. Might focus the minds of a number of politicians regarding the fact that Turkey is not a friend of Europe. At best a temporary ally, more often a menace and a threat.

I can't really figure why Turkey's leadership is so adamant about wanting Assad out of power. They have to know that the strongest group will take power and that will be some form of radical entity. But then, the US and many in the West and Mid East also want Assad out. You'd think that by now with Libya, Yemen, Somalia and other failed states they'd realize Syria will become more a problem and a base for ISIS. Or maybe some of those nations want him out because he is secular and they'd rather take their chances with a more Islamic regime in power, though not ISIS. But that horse seems to have left the barn a long time ago.

It's what they say about a "hell hath no fury like a Turk scorned".

Edrogan had tried a charm offensive for years with Assad.  Tried to open up relations and trade.  It was showing fruit.  But when the arab spring came about Edrogan really encouraged Assad to try and open up and liberalize.  Assad though went with terror and repression, and went back to his old mentors in Iran and Russia.

So, Edrogan supported the rebels.  This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.

[alfred russel]

So, Edrogan supported the rebels.  This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.

Kurds are also vying for target #1--probably are target #1 even--and they are also fighting ISIS.

Also, there are some rather extreme elements in Turkey like the Grey Wolves -- and those elements support Edrogan.

[Razgovory]

So, Edrogan supported the rebels.  This is part of why the Turks have been more neutral on ISIS - Assad is target #1 for them.

Kurds are also vying for target #1--probably are target #1 even--and they are also fighting ISIS.

Also, there are some rather extreme elements in Turkey like the Grey Wolves -- and those elements support Edrogan.

The Grey Wolves are an offshoot of the fascists in Turkey, they don't support Erdogan.  They are generally counted as his enemies.