One of the eras of history I am most fascinated with is that of sub-Roman Britain, or Britain after the Roman legions departed and the Romano-British "left-behinds" were forced to fend for themselves. I was reading an article on this period of history the other day that stated that Gwynedd can make a claim for the last unconquered portion of the Roman Empire in that it did not 'finally' fall until 1283 when the conquest of Wales was completed.
I thought this was a strange claim to make because I had always believed that Wales was never considered to be fully conquered by the Romans and was a sort of frontier march secondary to the one at Hadrian's Wall. Apparently it turns out that for at least a few centuries after the departure of the legions that the leading families of Wales continued to trace their lineage back to Roman patrician families, utilized Latin as their primary written language, and so forth. :hmm:
So is it true that Wales was the last vestige of the Western Roman Empire?
As an aside, as I was thinking about this I wondered if there were actually any known ruins of Roman villas in Wales, and surprisingly (to me) it turns out that there are, although almost all of them are along the south coast of Wales, according to Wikipedia (sorry grumbler :blush: ). I was suprised to learn that there were any ruins of Roman villas in Wales at all.
Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.
And Welsh is heavily influenced by Latin vocabulary-wise.
Were there any molemen or dwarves in sub-Roman Britain? Did they ever battle the surface dwellers? ^_^
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province.
And Welsh is heavily influenced by Latin vocabulary-wise.
See I had always thought that the Welsh were, for lack of a better term, 'pure' Brythonic people who were basically unconquered and unassimilated. But if what I read was true, then that clearly isn't the case, unless the Welsh totally fabricated their ancestry claims (which I guess is also possible).
I've been to Caerleon! :w00t:
Quote from: Jaron on September 28, 2015, 12:54:47 PM
Were there any molemen or dwarves in sub-Roman Britain? Did they ever battle the surface dwellers? ^_^
Sadly the historical record is sort of lacking, so it's possible there were molemen and dwarves but we'll probably never know if they battled the surface dwellers and if so how those battles went. :cry:
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 12:56:34 PM
See I had always thought that the Welsh were, for lack of a better term, 'pure' Brythonic people who were basically unconquered and unassimilated. But if what I read was true, then that clearly isn't the case, unless the Welsh totally fabricated their ancestry claims (which I guess is also possible).
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.
Material culture declined very quickly. Hard to say much more, given the lack of historical evidence, although the lack in itself is suggestive. Gildas appears to have had a classical education, but his book is thematically Christian, not classical. I doubt he was typical for his time. I agree with you that Britain was not less Roman than other provinces, but disagree it took generations to fade away. By the time of Gilda, Roman culture was likely a very thin veneer.
Much depends on what one counts as "Roman" cultural traits. If using Latin makes one "Roman", the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 01:16:11 PM
Much depends on what one counts as "Roman" cultural traits. If using Latin makes one "Roman", the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. ;)
Well I would say in this era the Christian community and the Roman Empire were very much intertwined. Indeed the ideology of the Late Empire was that those were the same thing.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 12:50:23 PMutilized Latin as their primary written language
Not much of a surprise. Have you looked at Welsh? :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fanamorfosis.net%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2Fwelsh-road-sign.jpg&hash=f38e14d445301e07d99df143e2444a42808e4594)
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
... it turns out that there are, although almost all of them are along the south coast of Wales, according to Wikipedia (sorry grumbler :blush: ).
Dunno why you are apologizing. This is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia information. Misuse comes when you use Wikipedia information to support an argument. Wiki article writers are not authorities and are often incompetent, biased, or both.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2015, 01:13:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.
Material culture declined very quickly. Hard to say much more, given the lack of historical evidence, although the lack in itself is suggestive. Gildas appears to have had a classical education, but his book is thematically Christian, not classical. I doubt he was typical for his time. I agree with you that Britain was not less Roman than other provinces, but disagree it took generations to fade away. By the time of Gilda, Roman culture was likely a very thin veneer.
From my understanding, there's questions about how thoroughly Romanized all of the provinces outside of Italy were, and how long pre-Roman culture survived after the Roman conquest. I think the perception that Britain was less Romanized than the continental parts of the Empire in the West comes from the fact that Celtic languages survived even until the fall of the Western Empire there, whereas they apparently didn't on the continent (Breton is a Celtic language, but introduced to the continent by settlers from Wales after the fall of the Western Empire). OTOH, while language and culture are somewhat related, they aren't the same thing, and while not a Celtic language, Basque survived.
I thought Gaulish had survived in France until even after the Frankish conquest? I think I remember reading something about that when I read Martin of Tours in college, some passage about how there were still some weird people speaking Gaulish in hick parts of France. :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on September 28, 2015, 02:06:23 PM
Dunno why you are apologizing. This is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia information. Misuse comes when you use Wikipedia information to support an argument. Wiki article writers are not authorities and are often incompetent, biased, or both.
It was more of a grumbler nod/reference than a bonafide apology. :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 01:01:42 PM
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
Wasn't there some recent DNA testing conducted that suggested that this most definitely was NOT the case, and that modern English ancestry has a higher percentage of pre-Germanic ancestry than Germanic, with only a few regional variations where that wasn't true? I thought I read that in a BBC article.
edit: Maybe it was this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry)
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:33:01 PM
I thought Gaulish had survived in France until even after the Frankish conquest? I think I remember reading something about that when I read Martin of Tours in college, some passage about how there were still some weird people speaking Gaulish in hick parts of France. :hmm:
Goulash is more Hungarian.
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 01:16:11 PM
the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. ;)
Well, it would fit.
- Persecutions against those who do not submit to the authority of the Emperor / Pope.
- Preach for Pax while doing wars of territorial conquests vs Preach for peace while doing wars of religious conqests (and territorial too, for the benefits of Catholic vassals)
- Tolerance of pedophilia for some higher ranking members
- Justification of slavery by the power of the Empire / by the will of God
- use or latin as official language
I see a lot of similarities here! ;)
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:33:01 PM
I thought Gaulish had survived in France until even after the Frankish conquest?
Gaulish was supplanted by Vulgar Latin[7] and various Germanic languages from around the 5th century AD onwards.From Wikipedia.
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 01:16:11 PM
the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. ;)
Well, it would fit.
- Persecutions against those who do not submit to the authority of the Emperor / Pope.
- Preach for Pax while doing wars of territorial conquests vs Preach for peace while doing wars of religious conqests (and territorial too, for the benefits of Catholic vassals)
- Tolerance of pedophilia for some higher ranking members
- Justification of slavery by the power of the Empire / by the will of God
- use or latin as official language
I see a lot of similarities here! ;)
'What has the Church ever done for us?'
;)
If I remember correctly St. Augustine had problems getting along with the 'native' Christian Bishops once he set up his mission in Canterbury, because they didn't agree with the Roman Catholic dating of Easter, and he didn't like the way they cut their hair (seriously :lol: ). So it seems that a century or so of being cut off from Rome by the Anglo-Saxons caused the Roman-British Church to evolve in different directions. IIRC he got along better with the Anglo-Saxons and it was easier to convert them from Germanic paganism than to get the already-Christian Romano-British to fall in line.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 01:01:42 PM
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
Wasn't there some recent DNA testing conducted that suggested that this most definitely was NOT the case, and that modern English ancestry has a higher percentage of pre-Germanic ancestry than Germanic, with only a few regional variations where that wasn't true? I thought I read that in a BBC article.
edit: Maybe it was this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry)
Yes. It was obviously a nationalist fantasy story. But those traditions die hard.
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 01:16:11 PM
the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. ;)
Well, it would fit.
- Persecutions against those who do not submit to the authority of the Emperor / Pope.
- Preach for Pax while doing wars of territorial conquests vs Preach for peace while doing wars of religious conqests (and territorial too, for the benefits of Catholic vassals)
- Tolerance of pedophilia for some higher ranking members
- Justification of slavery by the power of the Empire / by the will of God
- use or latin as official language
I see a lot of similarities here! ;)
Indeed. For good reason. Though the Empire was not doing any wars of territorial conquests during the time it was Catholic :P
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 02:50:48 PM
Yes. It was obviously a nationalist fantasy story. But those traditions die hard.
I am assuming what happened with the Anglo-Saxons is that they, much like the later Vikings and, well, many other conqering peoples, were more than happy to pound the shit out of local chicks they 'acquired' in raiding/settling and that's why they rather quickly created a nice new race the English. :)
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:54:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 02:50:48 PM
Yes. It was obviously a nationalist fantasy story. But those traditions die hard.
I am assuming what happened with the Anglo-Saxons is that they, much like the later Vikings and, well, many other conqering peoples, were more than happy to pound the shit out of local chicks they 'acquired' in raiding/settling and that's why they rather quickly created a nice new race the English. :)
Well sure chicks were pounded. But also locals assimilated into the culture while not being pounded at all. The process of Anglo-Saxon England took place over a long period of time.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 02:55:08 PM
But also locals assimilated into the culture while not being pounded at all. The process of Anglo-Saxon England took place over a long period of time.
As in, they started speaking Old English (or I guess Angle, Saxon, or Jute maybe?), writing in runes, and converting to Germanic paganism? :hmm: Ok well maybe not the second item as most people could not read and write anyway.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:57:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 02:55:08 PM
But also locals assimilated into the culture while not being pounded at all. The process of Anglo-Saxon England took place over a long period of time.
As in, they started speaking Old English (or I guess Angle, Saxon, or Jute maybe?), writing in runes, and converting to Germanic paganism? :hmm: Ok well maybe not the second item as most people could not read and write anyway.
Basically. God, or Wotan, was clearly on their side.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:50:18 PM
If I remember correctly St. Augustine had problems getting along with the 'native' Christian Bishops once he set up his mission in Canterbury, because they didn't agree with the Roman Catholic dating of Easter, and he didn't like the way they cut their hair (seriously :lol: ). So it seems that a century or so of being cut off from Rome by the Anglo-Saxons caused the Roman-British Church to evolve in different directions. IIRC he got along better with the Anglo-Saxons and it was easier to convert them from Germanic paganism than to get the already-Christian Romano-British to fall in line.
It is pretty funny/ironic reading Anglo-Saxons like The Venerable Bede - he hates the shit out of the already-existing Romano-British Christians, and is of the opinion his (totally pagan) ancestors were infinitely superior ... while writing as a Christian monk. :D
I guess the way to rationalize this is that the existing Christians were "degenerates", so not 'really' Christians at all. The ORIGINAL "not true Scotsmen". :P
@ Valmy While I have no evidence to contradict what you said I somehow find it hard to believe they would switch languages willingly. I can maybe go along with the religion part as I don't know to what extent the peasantry of Britain was really Christian at that point anyway. Even if the upper classes were thoroughly Christianized, they were more likely to have had the means to have fled to safety in Wales/the Old North/Cornwall.
Enter the Wotan.
Bede is pretty great. :lol:
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:02:50 PM
@ Valmy While I have no evidence to contradict what you said I somehow find it hard to believe they would switch languages willingly. I can maybe go along with the religion part as I don't know to what extent the peasantry of Britain was really Christian at that point anyway. Even if the upper classes were thoroughly Christianized, they were more likely to have had the means to have fled to safety in Wales/the Old North/Cornwall.
Well that is what the latest evidence suggests. People were less obnoxiously nationalist back in the day. Remember there were a lot of migrating Angles/Saxons/Jutes so they would be living side by side as neighbors. And why flee? Good land is hard to come by.
Bede is actually the reason why I am interested in this period of history in the first place, though I haven't read his book since college... but that's when I first was introduced to it. It's one of the most fascinating histories I ever read. It was amazing to me how you would have petty kingdoms where a king was a Christian, and then his son was like "fuck that, I love WOTAN" and then his son converted back, etc. Before I read that book I didn't realize how much of a struggle the Christianization of Europe was. I guess I imagined it all happened at once all nice and peaceful-like.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:05:15 PM
Bede is actually the reason why I am interested in this period of history in the first place, though I haven't read his book since college... but that's when I first was introduced to it. It's one of the most fascinating histories I ever read. It was amazing to me how you would have petty kingdoms where a king was a Christian, and then his son was like "fuck that, I love WOTAN" and then his son converted back, etc. Before I read that book I didn't realize how much of a struggle the Christianization of Europe was. I guess I imagined it all happened at once all nice and peaceful-like.
Yeah it was a very slow process. Christianity was structured around city life and had a hard time transitioning out into the countryside. Remember one thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire the last pagan nation (much less person) had only been converted for a few decades.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:05:15 PM
Bede is actually the reason why I am interested in this period of history in the first place, though I haven't read his book since college... but that's when I first was introduced to it. It's one of the most fascinating histories I ever read. It was amazing to me how you would have petty kingdoms where a king was a Christian, and then his son was like "fuck that, I love WOTAN" and then his son converted back, etc. Before I read that book I didn't realize how much of a struggle the Christianization of Europe was. I guess I imagined it all happened at once all nice and peaceful-like.
Heh I mentioned this before, but when I was touristing in England I saw a fancy royal genological chart purporting to trace the geneology of all the English monarchs ... and the ancestor at the base of the genological tree was ... Wotan. :lol:
To this day, they haven't given that up ...
Odin was a real man.
Well of course. Wotan was Hengist and Horsa's Great-Grandfather.
Odin/Wotan is the coolest God EVAR. I wish the world still worshipped that one-eyed badass.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:10:11 PM
Odin/Wotan is the coolest God EVAR. I wish the world still worshipped that one-eyed badass.
Convert to Odinism Cal!
I grew up on Odin Street. :)
Göring lived on that street for a time during his Swedish period. :ph34r:
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 02:54:02 PM
Though the Empire was not doing any wars of territorial conquests during the time it was Catholic :P
Bah. They reaped the fruit of their conquest :P
Quote from: The Brain on September 28, 2015, 03:08:32 PM
Odin was a real man.
You learned that from the documentary
Valhalla Rising. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:11:40 PM
Convert to Odinism Cal!
Nah, it's too religion-ey for me. I'd have to stop being so cynical and shit... :(
Well it is not that they didn't want to viper, they saw the inevitable destiny of the Empire was to rule the entire world and convert it to the One True Faith(tm) and then when Jesus shows back up to hand the Imperial Diadem over to him. But something funny happened on the way to the inevitable destiny.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:11:40 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:10:11 PM
Odin/Wotan is the coolest God EVAR. I wish the world still worshipped that one-eyed badass.
Convert to Odinism Cal!
Onanism, maybe. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:15:44 PM
Onanism, maybe. ;)
It is not a universal religion but it should be -_-
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:05:15 PM
Bede is actually the reason why I am interested in this period of history in the first place, though I haven't read his book since college... but that's when I first was introduced to it. It's one of the most fascinating histories I ever read. It was amazing to me how you would have petty kingdoms where a king was a Christian, and then his son was like "fuck that, I love WOTAN" and then his son converted back, etc. Before I read that book I didn't realize how much of a struggle the Christianization of Europe was. I guess I imagined it all happened at once all nice and peaceful-like.
Yeah it was a very slow process. Christianity was structured around city life and had a hard time transitioning out into the countryside. Remember one thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire the last pagan nation (much less person) had only been converted for a few decades.
funny how it seems the opposite nowadays, with Christian life being stronger in the country-side than in the cities.
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2015, 03:17:22 PM
funny how it seems the opposite nowadays, with Christian life being stronger in the country-side than in the cities.
Not a coincidence. The conservatism of the countryside has always been very strong. The hopelessness of being a farmer in the face of the tyranny of the elements tends to provoke a certain mentality.
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:14:44 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 28, 2015, 03:08:32 PM
Odin was a real man.
You learned that from the documentary Valhalla Rising. :hmm:
Actually from EUOT. And someone suggested that the poster who presented this info liked real men.
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Your chances for that kind of thing are probably better in Iceland. But maybe Norgy will comment and set me straight :P
Iceland became Christian fairly early IIRC. As late as the 12th century parts of Sweden were pagan, and local traditions may have lasted longer. IIRC there's a medieval folk tale where someone comes to an isolated settlement where they tell him that they still worship the old gods. Of course much of the traditions blended into the general elves/trolls/Satan part of folklore.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Hey, it isn't any secret - just listen to some Black Metal. :D
I remember reading about some thing called the "Troll Kirk" in rural Norway or Sweden that may have been used for pagan ceremonies as late as the 18th century? :hmm:
Sounds like speculation. Of course some traditions even today are of pagan origin, but I haven't heard of any kind of "real" pagan worship surviving that long.
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Hey, it isn't any secret - just listen to some Black Metal. :D
If I ever front a black metal band I'm gonna go by the name Growl Wallenberg. :)
:lmfao:
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Yeah it was a very slow process. Christianity was structured around city life and had a hard time transitioning out into the countryside. Remember one thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire the last pagan nation (much less person) had only been converted for a few decades.
Hence the etymology of "pagan"
One could argue that process of interaction and conflict with traditional practices never really ended.
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2015, 02:39:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:33:01 PM
I thought Gaulish had survived in France until even after the Frankish conquest?
Gaulish was supplanted by Vulgar Latin[7] and various Germanic languages from around the 5th century AD onwards.
From Wikipedia.
Yeah, but other sources say other things. There's a lot we don't know about the linguistic history of Europe from Classical times up to about 1500 (or even later, in some cases). Heck, according to most sources I've seen, we don't really even know when spoken Latin morphed into proto-French, -Spanish, etc.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Yeah it was a very slow process. Christianity was structured around city life and had a hard time transitioning out into the countryside. Remember one thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire the last pagan nation (much less person) had only been converted for a few decades.
Hence the etymology of "pagan"
One could argue that process of interaction and conflict with traditional practices never really ended.
I wonder if people in the hinterland of Russia still cling to traditional Marxism.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 01:01:42 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 12:56:34 PM
See I had always thought that the Welsh were, for lack of a better term, 'pure' Brythonic people who were basically unconquered and unassimilated. But if what I read was true, then that clearly isn't the case, unless the Welsh totally fabricated their ancestry claims (which I guess is also possible).
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
I've never heard of Brits being too into pan Germanism.
Though there was definitely an idea of Anglo Saxon= great and wonderful civilized folk, welsh=barbarians.
Though yeah, wonder how they squared that when they knew even since bede that their people had been the barbarians invading the roman welsh.
I like this period a lot too, though I have a bit more interest in the later Anglo Saxon times. What with there being more to know about them and it being a last hurrah for the old gods. I can't wait until they finally finish the last kingdom tv series.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
I remember reading about some thing called the "Troll Kirk" in rural Norway or Sweden that may have been used for pagan ceremonies as late as the 18th century? :hmm:
Lithuanian Paganism was still being practiced in the 16th century, probably the last major pagan religion around in Euroland. So I thought there might be some records of its beliefs and practices but no. Barely anything is known about it.
All I know about it is their thunder god was named Perkunas and he was a badass similar to Thor. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
I remember reading about some thing called the "Troll Kirk" in rural Norway or Sweden that may have been used for pagan ceremonies as late as the 18th century? :hmm:
Lithuanian Paganism was still being practiced in the 16th century, probably the last major pagan religion around in Euroland. So I thought there might be some records of its beliefs and practices but no. Barely anything is known about it.
I think Sami animists existed past that. As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India. The variant of Perkunas seems to have been worshiped in India at one time, before he got folded into Indra.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 28, 2015, 02:06:23 PM
Dunno why you are apologizing. This is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia information. Misuse comes when you use Wikipedia information to support an argument. Wiki article writers are not authorities and are often incompetent, biased, or both.
It was more of a grumbler nod/reference than a bonafide apology. :hug:
Ah, the meme. Got it, and I withdraw my comment.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:25:14 PM
Your chances for that kind of thing are probably better in Iceland. But maybe Norgy will comment and set me straight :P
Iceland adopted Christianity fairly early in around 1000 AD by arbitration at the Alþing. Eating horseflesh, exposure of infants and private pagan worship were retained from the old customs to smooth things over.
Today there's a solid Ásatrú community here but it's a modern revival.
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 01:01:42 PM
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
Wasn't there some recent DNA testing conducted that suggested that this most definitely was NOT the case, and that modern English ancestry has a higher percentage of pre-Germanic ancestry than Germanic, with only a few regional variations where that wasn't true? I thought I read that in a BBC article.
edit: Maybe it was this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Pre-roman_iron_age_%28map%29.PNG)
Germany itself is quite mixed. This is the "core Germanic" area from around the time the Celts were at their greatest extent. Modern Bavaria and the Czech Republic are the homeland of the core Celtic culture and language. A lot of core "Germanic" culture comes from Celtic influence.
The British Isles are a genetic mess, but there's quite a bit of continuity genetically. As you might expect, isolated Irish and general Welsh populations are the most insulated, and are IIRC quite closely connected to the Basques and some of the older Western European populations.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
I remember reading about some thing called the "Troll Kirk" in rural Norway or Sweden that may have been used for pagan ceremonies as late as the 18th century? :hmm:
Lithuanian Paganism was still being practiced in the 16th century, probably the last major pagan religion around in Euroland. So I thought there might be some records of its beliefs and practices but no. Barely anything is known about it.
That would depend on if you count Circassians and some Finnic groups as Europeans, I'd think. I might.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Yeah it was a very slow process. Christianity was structured around city life and had a hard time transitioning out into the countryside. Remember one thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire the last pagan nation (much less person) had only been converted for a few decades.
Hence the etymology of "pagan"
One could argue that process of interaction and conflict with traditional practices never really ended.
I wonder if people in the hinterland of Russia still cling to traditional Marxism.
Apparently they can no longer do the ancient sacrifice of the Kulak ceremony ... they substitute a chicken instead.
They get the chicken to break rocks in a minature gulag until it starves to death.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India.
Well yes I was not saying all paganisms everywhere are dead. Just that I was hopeful that a bit more was known about Lithuanian practices since they were practicing so late but sadly little remains but very basics.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 29, 2015, 07:01:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:25:14 PM
Your chances for that kind of thing are probably better in Iceland. But maybe Norgy will comment and set me straight :P
Iceland adopted Christianity fairly early in around 1000 AD by arbitration at the Alþing. Eating horseflesh, exposure of infants and private pagan worship were retained from the old customs to smooth things over.
Today there's a solid Ásatrú community here but it's a modern revival.
Ah I guess because the Eddas were written down in Iceland I thought they were the last to convert, rather than amongst the first.
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2015, 03:17:22 PM
funny how it seems the opposite nowadays, with Christian life being stronger in the country-side than in the cities.
Not a coincidence. The conservatism of the countryside has always been very strong. The hopelessness of being a farmer in the face of the tyranny of the elements tends to provoke a certain mentality.
I get the mistrust of a government who considers us no more than colonies to be exploited, but I don't get the "let's worship some unknown mystical figure that will solve everything for us so long as we poison other people's life".
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2015, 08:30:55 AM
I get the mistrust of a government who considers us no more than colonies to be exploited, but I don't get the "let's worship some unknown mystical figure that will solve everything for us so long as we poison other people's life".
You lost me on the poison part :P
I do not know why people have this need for religion.
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Hey, it isn't any secret - just listen to some Black Metal. :D
Black Metal is about devil worshippers and church burning.
Viking Metal, Scandinavian folk metal, Celtic metal, Power metal, these are the things you're looking for. :nerd:
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Hey, it isn't any secret - just listen to some Black Metal. :D
Black Metal is about devil worshippers and church burning.
Viking Metal, Scandinavian folk metal, Celtic metal, Power metal, these are the things you're looking for. :nerd:
I bow to your encylopedic knowledge of the different flavours of metal. ;)
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 08:22:27 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 29, 2015, 07:01:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 03:25:14 PM
Your chances for that kind of thing are probably better in Iceland. But maybe Norgy will comment and set me straight :P
Iceland adopted Christianity fairly early in around 1000 AD by arbitration at the Alþing. Eating horseflesh, exposure of infants and private pagan worship were retained from the old customs to smooth things over.
Today there's a solid Ásatrú community here but it's a modern revival.
Ah I guess because the Eddas were written down in Iceland I thought they were the last to convert, rather than amongst the first.
The survival of the Eddas in Iceland was largely the work of one guy - Snorri Sturluson - who was most definitely
not a pagan himself. He was a very gifted writer, and a very un-gifted politician, who died miserably having backed the wrong would-be King of Norway ... assassinated on the orders of the king who won (his last words were, allegedly, "do not strike!" :pinch: ).
Most interestingly, he advanced the notion that the pagan gods were basically deified tribal leaders.
Quote from: Malthus on September 29, 2015, 08:56:04 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 28, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
I always wonder if there's some isolated hamlet someplace in Scandinavia where people still secretly worship Thor. :hmm:
Hey, it isn't any secret - just listen to some Black Metal. :D
Black Metal is about devil worshippers and church burning.
Viking Metal, Scandinavian folk metal, Celtic metal, Power metal, these are the things you're looking for. :nerd:
I bow to your encylopedic knowledge of the different flavours of metal. ;)
Folk/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1lXdLus2WI)
Viking/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwdcFVsmYtU)
Finnish folk metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7kJRGPgvRQ)
Black Metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOebk_dKFo)
There's a distinct flavour in each ;)
Mongol pagan metal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6EbatvP9f4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6EbatvP9f4)
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
Quote from: Syt on September 28, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 12:50:23 PMutilized Latin as their primary written language
Not much of a surprise. Have you looked at Welsh? :P
Welsh didn't even exist in written form until the 6th century when they adopted the Latin alphabet.
From Time Team I gather that certain chieftains and their lineage managed to cling on to some semblance of Roman culture and lifestyle in enclaves throughout England. But they gradually ran out of the skill and willpower to maintain technology like hypocaust systemss, and local systems of law were reclaimed. Plus we didn't like to be told to wash and wear pants :P
But the Romans were the greatest anti-pants civilization in history :(
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 10:08:43 AM
But the Romans were the greatest anti-pants civilization in history :(
That was before they encountered our climate :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk%2Fmol%2Fexhibitions%2Flivingwithromans%2Fgraphics%2Flarge%2Fromano_british_roleplayer.jpg&hash=d8698541f88c3768b0111305f705bb22e66662c4)
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
I believe I have been on Languish long enough that it should surprise no one that I am not troubled by someone who
1) Has inexplicably intense animosities about 1,000 year old issues
2) gets in to ludicrous amounts of details, especially when describing said issues
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
Grinding axes was a very useful life skill in sub-Roman Britain. :contract: Can't fight off invading barbarians with a dull axe.
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2015, 09:33:27 AM
Folk/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1lXdLus2WI)
Viking/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwdcFVsmYtU)
Finnish folk metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7kJRGPgvRQ)
Black Metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOebk_dKFo)
There's a distinct flavour in each ;)
Which one tastes like gold?
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India.
Well yes I was not saying all paganisms everywhere are dead. Just that I was hopeful that a bit more was known about Lithuanian practices since they were practicing so late but sadly little remains but very basics.
I'm not sad about it at all. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India.
Well yes I was not saying all paganisms everywhere are dead. Just that I was hopeful that a bit more was known about Lithuanian practices since they were practicing so late but sadly little remains but very basics.
I'm not sad about it at all. :)
Why not? The tragedy can hardly be vocalized without tears rolling down my cheeks.
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 11:28:59 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India.
Well yes I was not saying all paganisms everywhere are dead. Just that I was hopeful that a bit more was known about Lithuanian practices since they were practicing so late but sadly little remains but very basics.
I'm not sad about it at all. :)
Why not? The tragedy can hardly be vocalized without tears rolling down my cheeks.
Because native Indo-European religions were rather nasty. Human sacrifice, infanticide, etc. It's no coincidence that first revival of pagan beliefs were by rather nasty nationalist groups who wanted something more muscular and bloody then womanly Christianity. Good riddance.
That and dumbshit feminists and hippies.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 11:40:21 AM
Because native Indo-European religions were rather nasty. Human sacrifice, infanticide, etc. It's no coincidence that first revival of pagan beliefs were by rather nasty nationalist groups who wanted something more muscular and bloody then womanly Christianity. Good riddance.
Um I was not talking about bringing it back just knowing about it.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 11:45:12 AM
That and dumbshit feminists and hippies.
They are at least tolerable, but they really came later. Wicca has more in common with Scientology (which is sort of a cousin religion), then it does with Indo-European paganism.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 11:45:12 AM
That and dumbshit feminists and hippies.
Hey! Kabbalah predates Judaism. True story.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 11:40:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 11:28:59 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 28, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
As for Indo-European paganism, it's still alive and well, in India.
Well yes I was not saying all paganisms everywhere are dead. Just that I was hopeful that a bit more was known about Lithuanian practices since they were practicing so late but sadly little remains but very basics.
I'm not sad about it at all. :)
Why not? The tragedy can hardly be vocalized without tears rolling down my cheeks.
Because native Indo-European religions were rather nasty. Human sacrifice, infanticide, etc. It's no coincidence that first revival of pagan beliefs were by rather nasty nationalist groups who wanted something more muscular and bloody then womanly Christianity. Good riddance.
And yet again, Godwin's law is confirmed. -_-
Quote from: Caliga on September 28, 2015, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 28, 2015, 01:01:42 PM
I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.
Wasn't there some recent DNA testing conducted that suggested that this most definitely was NOT the case, and that modern English ancestry has a higher percentage of pre-Germanic ancestry than Germanic, with only a few regional variations where that wasn't true? I thought I read that in a BBC article.
edit: Maybe it was this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry)
Interesting, that's a very recent article.
A while ago was a study by a guy called Oppenheimer which pretty much said that the Brits had been the same people since time immemorial with minimal genetic influence from invaders. This study always gets brought up by the far right when the conversation goes this way... :rolleyes:
However...this was just one study. There were also other studies which said exactly the opposite. That modern Brits had very little ancestral DNA and the anglo-saxons had pretty much committed a genocide. And then everything in between. It seems to be one of those things on which there is nothing solid.
I would fall somewhere in the middle. Not least because of the differences between southerners and northerners - if the vikings and normans could have such an impact then earlier invasions surely would have too.
Quote from: Barrister on September 29, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
And yet again, Godwin's law is confirmed. -_-
Once all unpleasant things in history are forgotten the Nazis will never be possible.
Because all those movements were based on proper historical understanding of ancient Indo-European religions and stuff.
Quote from: Barrister on September 29, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
And yet again, Godwin's law is confirmed. -_-
Not so fast, Himmler built on this, but it predates the Nazis. Admiration for the white man's indigenous religion and contempt for the weak faiths of the Semites goes back as far as the 18th century. Gibbon essentially blames the fall of Rome for this. Outright adulation of the old pagan gods starts to become a thing in the 19th century in the confluence of Nationalism, Romanticism, Racialism and Imperialism. It was expressed most openly in Germany and saw a major setback with a major influx of non-Germans into Germany around the mid 1940's (for some reason or another). Even the matriarchy minded neopagans of today still draw from the these elements to some degree.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 12:19:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 29, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
And yet again, Godwin's law is confirmed. -_-
Not so fast, Himmler built on this, but it predates the Nazis. Admiration for the white man's indigenous religion and contempt for the weak faiths of the Semites goes back as far as the 18th century. Gibbon essentially blames the fall of Rome for this. Outright adulation of the old pagan gods starts to become a thing in the 19th century in the confluence of Nationalism, Romanticism, Racialism and Imperialism. It was expressed most openly in Germany and saw a major setback with a major influx of non-Germans into Germany around the mid 1940's (for some reason or another). Even the matriarchy minded neopagans of today still draw from the these elements to some degree.
So therefore all historical knowledge about those religions should be forgotten? Because of something some assholes in the 18th century did? Um they already did it so erasing history will not have any impact Raz. Maybe those people were just assholes and it doesn't and didn't matter what the facts of "white man's indigenous religion" might be?
The Nazis ruined the Germanic faiths.
I wonder where they would be if they didn't have the far right associations. In the Scandinavian version and the Roman records of the Germans, it is one of the better recorded old pagan faiths afterall.
The funny part is that Hitler himself thought that Nazi neo-pagan stuff was all bullshit. :lol:
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 10:43:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
I believe I have been on Languish long enough that it should surprise no one that I am not troubled by someone who
1) Has inexplicably intense animosities about 1,000 year old issues
2) gets in to ludicrous amounts of details, especially when describing said issues
While knowing oneself is important, personal failings should not be indulged. -_-
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
Elaborate
Quote from: Tyr on September 29, 2015, 12:25:25 PM
The Nazis ruined the Germanic faiths.
I wonder where they would be if they didn't have the far right associations. In the Scandinavian version and the Roman records of the Germans, it is one of the better recorded old pagan faiths afterall.
Roman records on the matter shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2015, 05:39:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on September 29, 2015, 12:25:25 PM
The Nazis ruined the Germanic faiths.
I wonder where they would be if they didn't have the far right associations. In the Scandinavian version and the Roman records of the Germans, it is one of the better recorded old pagan faiths afterall.
Roman records on the matter shouldn't be taken as gospel.
I don't think anybody is taking them that way Tim. But there are records and that is something.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2015, 05:17:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
Elaborate
He hates the Romans to a hilarious degree. He also strongly disagrees with the traditional views on Anglo-Saxon history. Now generally those are fine biases to have but he is really intense about them.
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2015, 05:17:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 29, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
Caliga, check out the British History Podcast. They go in to a ludicrous amount of detail about Sub-Roman Britain. It's fantastic.
The guy has so many axes to grind his axes' axes need grinding. But he sure does get down to nitty gritty.
Elaborate
He hates the Romans to a hilarious degree. He also strongly disagrees with the traditional views on Anglo-Saxon history. Now generally those are fine biases to have but he is really intense about them.
Why?
All that's going through my head right now is the "what did the Romans ever do for us" scene from a life of Bryan.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2015, 06:00:23 PM
Why?
Sexist imperialists whose culture was a pale reflection of Greece that everybody was glad to see go. Basically.
Which, again, is fine plenty of people think that. I just got tired of hearing it over and over again after awhile :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 06:09:34 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2015, 06:00:23 PM
Why?
Sexist imperialists whose culture was a pale reflection of Greece that everybody was glad to see go. Basically.
Which, again, is fine plenty of people think that. I just got tired of hearing it over and over again after awhile :lol:
:o :o :o
Shocked and Appalled!
The Greeks were more sexist than the Romans.
Quote from: Tyr on September 29, 2015, 12:25:25 PM
The Nazis ruined the Germanic faiths.
I wonder where they would be if they didn't have the far right associations. In the Scandinavian version and the Roman records of the Germans, it is one of the better recorded old pagan faiths afterall.
I think they were ruined way before the Nazis.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fru3WuQd.jpg&hash=0a7abb4ce142ff18c30b46eb61a5f1a2d2d43918)
"I was a pagan German, and all I got was a rope around the neck".
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2015, 06:59:49 PM
The Greeks were more sexist than the Romans.
The Athenians by orders of magnitude.
Yeah, Athens was not unlike modern Saudi Arabia. Women wore veils, were not allowed out without a guardians, lived in separate compartments of the houses from the men. It is strange how often we forget.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 09:56:18 PM
Yeah, Athens was not unlike modern Saudi Arabia. Women wore veils, were not allowed out without a guardians, lived in separate compartments of the houses from the men. It is strange how often we forget.
Well being on an equal level with a civilization 2500 years later is not so bad. But the comparison to show how sexist the Romans were was being made against the Celts.
Quote"I was a pagan German, and all I got was a rope around the neck".
Ancient cultures have things that go against modern cultural sensibilities? You don't say Raz.
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 10:36:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 09:56:18 PM
Yeah, Athens was not unlike modern Saudi Arabia. Women wore veils, were not allowed out without a guardians, lived in separate compartments of the houses from the men. It is strange how often we forget.
Well being on an equal level with a civilization 2500 years later is not so bad. But the comparison to show how sexist the Romans were was being made against the Celts.
Quote"I was a pagan German, and all I got was a rope around the neck".
Ancient cultures have things that go against modern cultural sensibilities? You don't say Raz.
Not all ancient cultures sacrificed human beings. I think "strangling people and tossing them in the bog" goes a bit beyond "violating our culture sensibilities". There is also some evidence that the Muslims got their attitudes about women from the ancient Greeks, the wellspring of Western culture. Funny that. It does make one think though, who are the true inheritor of the culture that outlawed meteorology and invented the blood libel. The West or the Middle East?
No it doesn't make one think at all. Maybe just roll one's eyes.
The Athenians wanted to live on Germanic welfare. Good riddance.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 12:43:25 AM
Not all ancient cultures sacrificed human beings. I think "strangling people and tossing them in the bog" goes a bit beyond "violating our culture sensibilities".
If you are going to play at comparing ancient cultures with modern sensibilities you probably want to add in a number of passages from the Old Testament. Starting with the guy who was willing to sacrifice his own son. ;) Now it is true that this passage may be a message to the ancients that human sacrifice is no longer acceptable. But you must admit that the willingness to sacrifice a son is at least evidence that the practice needed to be stopped.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2015, 09:33:27 AM
Folk/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1lXdLus2WI)
Viking/pagan metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwdcFVsmYtU)
Finnish folk metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7kJRGPgvRQ)
Black Metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOebk_dKFo)
There's a distinct flavour in each ;)
Which one tastes like gold?
Swiss folk metal. They have gold everywhere in Switzerland. In alcohol, in music...
I started listening to Tengger Cavalry a few weeks ago - they're pretty good if you don't mind Chinese instruments or Mongolian throat singing. Though Chthonic remains my favorite Chinese metal band (they're from Taiwan, not PRC, though).
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 12:43:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2015, 10:36:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2015, 09:56:18 PM
Yeah, Athens was not unlike modern Saudi Arabia. Women wore veils, were not allowed out without a guardians, lived in separate compartments of the houses from the men. It is strange how often we forget.
Well being on an equal level with a civilization 2500 years later is not so bad. But the comparison to show how sexist the Romans were was being made against the Celts.
Quote"I was a pagan German, and all I got was a rope around the neck".
Ancient cultures have things that go against modern cultural sensibilities? You don't say Raz.
Not all ancient cultures sacrificed human beings. I think "strangling people and tossing them in the bog" goes a bit beyond "violating our culture sensibilities". There is also some evidence that the Muslims got their attitudes about women from the ancient Greeks, the wellspring of Western culture. Funny that. It does make one think though, who are the true inheritor of the culture that outlawed meteorology and invented the blood libel. The West or the Middle East?
You're massively overstating your case.
1) You've disagreed w me in the past for talking of a united "Greek" culture and therefore probably know as well as I do that in the Classical Period, different Greek cities, let aloen different Greek sub-ethnicities, would have had radically different roles for women.
2) I'd like you to point to the Saudi Lysistrata.
3) Byzantium allowed women to assume certain formal offices of power that would have been impossible in the Arab World.
4) Byzantium and later Rome did not have patriarichal segmentary linages, like a lot of the Arab World. No tribes. Descent could be traced through women, and was, totally unlike the Muslim world, with the exception of the daughters of Muhammad.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 12:43:25 AM
There is also some evidence that the Muslims got their attitudes about women from the ancient Greeks, the wellspring of Western culture.
?
IIRC there was more influence from Sassanid Persia in that regard.
Yeah.
I think the Greeks would have viewed a lot of Muslim views on a woman's honor, or family honor regarding the control of women, as completely barbarian.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 30, 2015, 11:32:35 AM
You're massively overstating your case.
1) You've disagreed w me in the past for talking of a united "Greek" culture and therefore probably know as well as I do that in the Classical Period, different Greek cities, let aloen different Greek sub-ethnicities, would have had radically different roles for women.
2) I'd like you to point to the Saudi Lysistrata.
3) Byzantium allowed women to assume certain formal offices of power that would have been impossible in the Arab World.
4) Byzantium and later Rome did not have patriarichal segmentary linages, like a lot of the Arab World. No tribes. Descent could be traced through women, and was, totally unlike the Muslim world, with the exception of the daughters of Muhammad.
I would say that Byzantium was quite different then classical Greece. I would also suggest that some parts of the Arab world women had many more rights then Byzantine Greece. Like women elected to office in Egypt.
When was that? Like, 1956?
Until Egypt allows a woman to be Equal to the Apostles and Christ's Vice-Regent on Earth they still have a ways to go to catch up to the Byzantine Greeks.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 03:32:29 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 30, 2015, 11:32:35 AM
You're massively overstating your case.
1) You've disagreed w me in the past for talking of a united "Greek" culture and therefore probably know as well as I do that in the Classical Period, different Greek cities, let aloen different Greek sub-ethnicities, would have had radically different roles for women.
2) I'd like you to point to the Saudi Lysistrata.
3) Byzantium allowed women to assume certain formal offices of power that would have been impossible in the Arab World.
4) Byzantium and later Rome did not have patriarichal segmentary linages, like a lot of the Arab World. No tribes. Descent could be traced through women, and was, totally unlike the Muslim world, with the exception of the daughters of Muhammad.
I would say that Byzantium was quite different then classical Greece. I would also suggest that some parts of the Arab world women had many more rights then Byzantine Greece. Like women elected to office in Egypt.
Actually it was classical Greece then Byzantium.
I'm surprised you reproduced my grammatical error.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 04:24:58 PM
I'm surprised you reproduced my grammatical error.
:unsure:
Then should be Than.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 04:36:27 PM
Then should be Than.
Sigh. You're not the sharpest one, are you?
No, but I did expect better from my intellectual superiors.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
No, but I did expect better from my intellectual superiors.
:secret: Brain's comment was using "then" correctly. As in, Byzantium comes after classical Greece.