Ide approves, rational humans are appalled.
https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/social-sciences-and-humanities-faculties-close-japan-after-ministerial-decree
Quote
Social sciences and humanities faculties to close in Japan after ministerial decree
Seventeen universities are to close liberal arts and social science courses
September 14 2015
Many social sciences and humanities faculties in Japan are to close after universities were ordered to "serve areas that better meet society's needs".
Of the 60 national universities that offer courses in these disciplines, 26 have confirmed that they will either close or scale back their relevant faculties at the behest of Japan's government.
It follows a letter from education minister Hakuban Shimomura sent to all of Japan's 86 national universities, which called on them to take "active steps to abolish [social science and humanities] organisations or to convert them to serve areas that better meet society's needs".
The ministerial decree has been denounced by one university president as "anti-intellectual", while the universities of Tokyo and Kyoto, regarded as the country's most prestigious, have said that they will not comply with the request.
However, 17 national universities will stop recruiting students to humanities and social science courses – including law and economics, according to a survey of university presidents by The Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper, which was reported by the blog Social Science Space.
It reports that the Science Council of Japan put out a statement late last month that expressed its "profound concern over the potentially grave impact that such an administrative directive implies for the future of the HSS [humanities and social sciences] in Japan".
The call to close the liberal arts and social science faculties are believed to be part of wider efforts by president Shinzo Abe to promote what he has called "more practical vocational education that better anticipates the needs of society".
However, it is likely to be connected with ongoing financial pressures on Japanese universities, linked to a low birth rate and falling numbers of students, which have led to many institutions running at less than 50 per cent of capacity.
Those scientists can get to work on how to grow new Japanese citizens in vats.
:)
:thumbsup:
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
+1
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Somehow I think people are capable of self-reflection even if they didn't major in the social sciences.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Somehow I think people are capable of self-reflection even if they didn't major in the social sciences.
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
Surely this is just a reflection of Abe &co's ultra-nationalist anti-intellectualism. Everyone knows that sociology professors are lefties.
FWIW, I once heard Abe speak in person, and his English was very good and he was even witty. Even sounded off the cuff as opposed to practiced.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Somehow I think people are capable of self-reflection even if they didn't major in the social sciences.
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
^_^
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:09:01 AM
Surely this is just a reflection of Abe &co's ultra-nationalist anti-intellectualism. Everyone knows that sociology professors are lefties.
FWIW, I once heard Abe speak in person, and his English was very good and he was even witty. Even sounded off the cuff as opposed to practiced.
OK Martim.
Someone needs to give Hami a refresher course on Languish memes. :P
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 10:11:10 AM
Martim Silva famously has met and talked to most major players in the world.
Don't remember the guy. And I was just in the audience, with like 2,000 other people. At the same event, they even wheeled out the Crown Prince to give an entirely content-free speech.The nibbles were
fantastic.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:12:35 AM
Someone needs to give Hami a refresher course on Languish memes. :P
Is it still cool to make fun of Jaron?
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:10:30 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 10:09:48 AM
OK Martim.
Eh? :huh:
It's a meme there you missed out on, our Martin Silva mentions attending diplomatic functions and 'we' mock him for name dropping and quoting titbits of the conversations. :)
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:12:35 AM
Someone needs to give Hami a refresher course on Languish memes. :P
Is it still cool to make fun of Jaron?
Sure.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Somehow I think people are capable of self-reflection even if they didn't major in the social sciences.
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
Mart has a point though. What if I DO want fries with that?
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:12:35 AM
Someone needs to give Hami a refresher course on Languish memes. :P
Is it still cool to make fun of Jaron?
Serious answer: not really. He isn't around much anymore. He is around in recent weeks though. Polls still have Jaron options though.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
I doubt any nation's budget is significantly impacted by the salary of its sociology professors.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:18:07 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
I doubt any nation's budget is significantly impacted by the salary of its sociology professors.
Budget is one factor. The market may really demand more STEM graduates than social science graduates.
When I was at Columbia there was a quite sizable contingent of Japanese students at my faculty, the School of the Arts. They talked terribly of Japanese art schools. I guess most Japanese non-STEM schools just aren't very good and a lot of students just try to go abroad.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:20:13 AM
Budget is one factor. The market may really demand more STEM graduates than social science graduates.
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
Quote from: celedhring on September 16, 2015, 10:20:55 AM
When I was at Columbia there was a quite sizable contingent of Japanese students at my faculty, the School of the Arts. They talked terribly of Japanese art schools. I guess most Japanese non-STEM schools just aren't very good and a lot of students just try to go abroad.
My impression is that the Japanese are very weak in history.
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 16, 2015, 10:20:55 AM
When I was at Columbia there was a quite sizable contingent of Japanese students at my faculty, the School of the Arts. They talked terribly of Japanese art schools. I guess most Japanese non-STEM schools just aren't very good and a lot of students just try to go abroad.
My impression is that the Japanese are very weak in history.
Just selective.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:20:13 AM
Budget is one factor. The market may really demand more STEM graduates than social science graduates.
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
Certainly in HK the employers keep saying they don't find enough IT people. I have personally seen a major government IT project fail because the contractor can't hire enough IT people with salaries that can keep the project within budget. We had to kill the project and start over. I seldom, if ever, hear any employer complaining about the lack of social science majors. Not sure about Japan, of course, but my guess is they are in the same boat.
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 10:11:10 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:10:30 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 10:09:48 AM
OK Martim.
Eh? :huh:
Martim Silva famously has met and talked to most major players in the world.
I think he also got a handjob from an ambassador while speaking at UN, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
Certainly in HK the employers keep saying they don't find enough IT people. I have personally seen a major government IT project fail because the contractor can't hire enough IT people with salaries that can keep the project within budget. We had to kill the project and start over. I seldom, if ever, hear any employer complaining about the lack of social science majors. Not sure about Japan, of course, but my guess is they are in the same boat.
So the problem is really with the government not wanting to pay the IT people enough. There are enough IT graduates, you just don't want to pay them what they demand.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:27:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
Certainly in HK the employers keep saying they don't find enough IT people. I have personally seen a major government IT project fail because the contractor can't hire enough IT people with salaries that can keep the project within budget. We had to kill the project and start over. I seldom, if ever, hear any employer complaining about the lack of social science majors. Not sure about Japan, of course, but my guess is they are in the same boat.
So the problem is really with the government not wanting to pay the IT people enough. There are enough IT graduates, you just don't want to pay them what they demand.
:hmm:
Also, Japan have a dire demographic problem. It's not lack of STEM graduates, it's lack of graduates. I'm not knowledgeable enough about their society and laws, but they need immigrants.
Quote from: celedhring on September 16, 2015, 10:29:26 AM
Also, Japan have a dire demographic problem. It's not lack of STEM graduates, it's lack of graduates. I'm not knowledgeable enough about their society and laws, but they need immigrants.
From what I heard, many people do not want to migrate there due to Japanese people's horrible racism.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:27:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
Certainly in HK the employers keep saying they don't find enough IT people. I have personally seen a major government IT project fail because the contractor can't hire enough IT people with salaries that can keep the project within budget. We had to kill the project and start over. I seldom, if ever, hear any employer complaining about the lack of social science majors. Not sure about Japan, of course, but my guess is they are in the same boat.
So the problem is really with the government not wanting to pay the IT people enough. There are enough IT graduates, you just don't want to pay them what they demand.
I see it as a sign that we need more STEM graduates. The problem is we don't have enough of them. Government contract - lowest bidder wins. If the lowest bidder wants to pay us $x, we'll pay $x, no more. We don't determine how the contractor pays the IT people.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:30:42 AM
I see it as a sign that we need more STEM graduates. The problem is we don't have enough of them. Government contract - lowest bidder wins. If the lowest bidder wants to pay us $x, we'll pay $x, no more. We don't determine how the contractor pays the IT people.
So your solution is for the government to pay a shit ton of money to produce more IT graduates so it can save 10% off the budget for the next project? That's some stellar long term policy there.
There's an appropriate American saying: you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:30:15 AM
From what I heard, many people do not want to migrate there due to Japanese people's horrible racism.
How bad are the Japanese exactly?
It is more likely since Japan is an island they can control it better. Like Australia and New Zealand do.
I used to wonder how do government bureaucracies often end up acting in a such inefficient and moronic manner they do - why doesn't noone challenge that at one point or another. Now, it seems based on what Mono is saying, not only they realise that, they consider it a good idea. :lol:
Well, both of you could be right. You have to pay the market rate to get the people. But the market rate may reflect the fact that there aren't enough people. The fact that the going rate is very high for IT people may indicate that there are a lot of projects requiring IT that are not getting done due to not being able to compete with other projects for resources.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:31:59 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:30:42 AM
I see it as a sign that we need more STEM graduates. The problem is we don't have enough of them. Government contract - lowest bidder wins. If the lowest bidder wants to pay us $x, we'll pay $x, no more. We don't determine how the contractor pays the IT people.
So your solution is for the government to pay a shit ton of money to produce more IT graduates so it can save 10% off the budget for the next project? That's some stellar long term policy there.
There's an appropriate American saying: you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
I doubt an IT professor costs more than a humanities professor. The solution is to fire the humanities professor, and use the same amount of money to hire an IT professor to train programmers. Same cost, better ouput.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:32:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:30:15 AM
From what I heard, many people do not want to migrate there due to Japanese people's horrible racism.
How bad are the Japanese exactly?
It is more likely since Japan is an island they can control it better. Like Australia and New Zealand do.
Not sure to be honest - it's just that I met a bunch of people each separately telling me about the rampant and explicit racism in Japan. I understand it is pretty anecdotal though.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:33:58 AM
I used to wonder how do government bureaucracies often end up acting in a such inefficient and moronic manner they do - why doesn't noone challenge that at one point or another. Now, it seems based on what Mono is saying, not only they realise that, they consider it a good idea. :lol:
It is about priorities. Private companies prioritise the bottom line. Governments prioritise not getting accused of accepting bribes. The priority is to set an objective standard and follow it, so that no civil servant can be accused of corruption. That's why the lowest bidder wins rule. Whether the contractor can actually carry out the contract takes second place.
Yes, as I said, this is horribly inefficient and wasteful. Only idiots pick the cheapest offer in a tender.
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Ok...?
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
Somehow I think people are capable of self-reflection even if they didn't major in the social sciences.
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
The problem is the government attempting to "pick winners" by such a blunt tool, rather than allowing students to sink or swim based on their individual choices.
Now granted that students often make terrible choices - but they all make different choices. Governments (everywhere) make terrible choices too, but in this case they are choosing to limit the options available to individuals - if they are wrong, the consequences are a lot more severe than individual students making bad choices: Japan deprived of students in whole sections of academics. If those studies happen to contribute in some way to success, Japan will lose out.
Lots of academic work doesn't appear to contribute directly to success, even in the STEM fields. However, it may contribute indirectly in all sorts of ways. That's why indulging basic human curiousity and creativity is a sound idea, rather than focussing to narrowly on what makes money short-term.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
According to whom? Psychologists? :yeahright:
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
According to whom? Psychologists? :yeahright:
My father was a very successful psychologist and he was successful precisely because he knew it was not a science. Well I guess 'is' he still does some work despite being retired.
The government could take its hand from higher education.
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
According to whom? Psychologists? :yeahright:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields
QuoteSTEM-eligible degrees in US immigration
For more details on Temporary foreign workers, see Global labor arbitrage, H-1B visa, and Optional Practical Training.
An exhaustive list of STEM disciplines does not exist because the definition varies by organization. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement lists disciplines including physics, actuarial science, chemistry, biology, mathematics, applied mathematics, statistics, computer science, computational science, psychology, biochemistry, robotics, computer engineering, electrical engineering, electronics, mechanical engineering, industrial engineering, information science, civil engineering, aerospace engineering, chemical engineering, astrophysics, astronomy, optics, nanotechnology, nuclear physics, mathematical biology, operations research, neurobiology, biomechanics, bioinformatics, acoustical engineering, geographic information systems, atmospheric sciences, educational/instructional technology, software engineering, and educational research.
And then yes among psychs:
http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/reports/stem-discipline.aspx
QuoteThe goal of this report is to review the current status of psychology as a STEM discipline, articulate the problem of inconsistent recognition of psychology as a core STEM discipline, provide a rationale for consistent recognition of psychology as a STEM discipline, and recommend specific actions to achieve this goal.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel that you said something rude?
Voodoo is STEM.
I'd consider PHD psychologists with prescribing authority to be on par with psychiatrists in STEMiness. The pure talk therapy guys aren't using nearly as much evidence based medicine in their day to day practice.
Quote from: Fate on September 16, 2015, 11:07:40 AM
The pure talk therapy guys aren't using much evidence based medicine in their day to day practice.
Well they do have tests and other various things that do have methodologies.
Actually here's the national science foundation.
http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/sei/edTool/data/college-12.html
QuoteSocial sciences/psychology was the second largest field, accounting for 33% of all S&E [Science & Engineering] associate's degrees conferred.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:04:30 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel that you said something rude?
Do you want to talk about it?
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:04:30 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel that you said something rude?
Do you want to talk about it?
Is there anything else to be said?
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
Do you want to talk about it?
All Psychologists are cognitive therapists now?
Stanford & Son doesn't take kindly to snobbery.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:22:03 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:04:30 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel that you said something rude?
Do you want to talk about it?
Is there anything else to be said?
I can get a metaphorical couch if it would help you get started.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
I doubt an IT professor costs more than a humanities professor. The solution is to fire the humanities professor, and use the same amount of money to hire an IT professor to train programmers. Same cost, better ouput.
You'd be wrong. STEM experts make more money in industry than humanities experts, and so cost more to hire away from industry. "Better" output is going to cost a lot more, even assuming that producing marginal STEM students is "better."
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
According to whom? Psychologists? :yeahright:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields
QuoteSTEM-eligible degrees in US immigration
For more details on Temporary foreign workers, see Global labor arbitrage, H-1B visa, and Optional Practical Training.
An exhaustive list of STEM disciplines does not exist because the definition varies by organization. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement lists disciplines including physics, actuarial science, chemistry, biology, mathematics, applied mathematics, statistics, computer science, computational science, psychology, biochemistry, robotics, computer engineering, electrical engineering, electronics, mechanical engineering, industrial engineering, information science, civil engineering, aerospace engineering, chemical engineering, astrophysics, astronomy, optics, nanotechnology, nuclear physics, mathematical biology, operations research, neurobiology, biomechanics, bioinformatics, acoustical engineering, geographic information systems, atmospheric sciences, educational/instructional technology, software engineering, and educational research.
And then yes among psychs:
http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/reports/stem-discipline.aspx
QuoteThe goal of this report is to review the current status of psychology as a STEM discipline, articulate the problem of inconsistent recognition of psychology as a core STEM discipline, provide a rationale for consistent recognition of psychology as a STEM discipline, and recommend specific actions to achieve this goal.
One of those is not like the others. :hmm:
Actuary it is.
So this is what it looks like when a country dies.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2015, 11:35:03 AM
So this is what it looks like when a country dies.
Why is Japan dying? It's focusing on what's important.
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2015, 11:35:03 AM
So this is what it looks like when a country dies.
Why is Japan dying? It's focusing on what's important.
It's economic triage.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2015, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2015, 11:35:03 AM
So this is what it looks like when a country dies.
Why is Japan dying? It's focusing on what's important.
It's economic triage.
Or just trimming of waste. Well, I guess it's more or less the same thing.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
If we are to be serious for just a moment, I really question this premise. Russia is actually a pretty well-read country, and it certainly has a lot of cultural achievements to be proud of. One of the "advantages" of Soviet dictatorship was that culture could be shoved down your throat. It sure did wonders steering Russians away from the cattle stage.
Yes, I understand the need for some rounding, but STEM people with some social science side interests tend to be way deeper thinkers than social science airheads.
Actually, Japan tried some small scale immigration, or "remigration", by inciting Brazilians of Japanese heritage to come back to Japan but it did not work. These new Japanese, had gone native in Brazil and did not work like the Japanese in Japan do.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:20:13 AM
Budget is one factor. The market may really demand more STEM graduates than social science graduates.
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
Can you illuminate us upon the last time you sought work? Preferably that wasn't at the physics department at ______ University?
STEM salaries are not, for the most part, fantastic. STEM is not the path to riches. However, it is about the only path to the middle class that remains, and in general society would certainly benefit a great deal more from a million more people who know how to do concrete things than a million more people who (kind of) know how to ponder abstract ideas.
It would be amazing how the elite will defend the liberal arts to the death, if I didn't know why they did: because they went to elite universities where everyone wound up okay. They do not see, to the point of willful blindness, that not every program is the same, and that the 90% of people who did
not get their shitty history or psychology or English degrees from Harvard or Yale or Stanford--or their European equivalents, like, I dunno, Oxford.
The journalists, sociologists, and so forth that Martinus speaks of didn't get their degrees from Podunk. They come from the elite university system, trained in do-gooderism and social justice and all that nice stuff, while benefiting enormously and sometimes invisibly from family connections and the elite educational network that a few percentile points of our society has access to. Meanwhile, there simply is no place in the apparatus of "societal self-reflection" for the unwashed mass of liberal arts majors; the actual paying jobs that permit one to reflect upon society are few. Whereas STEM grads can, at least, usually get themselves employed.
Sure: we live in late capitalism, and that sucks, but some of us obviously have a harder time living in it than others. (Of course, you have people like Tim defending the status quo, when the dude is a fucking economic refugee. I love him, but I don't get him at all.)
Anyway, the actual social
sciences depend upon STEM methods and training in data-driven approaches. Otherwise, it's anecdote-driven bloviation. And the latter is exactly what is mostly taught in history and English departments--the Hobby Colleges of our universities. Indeed, as far as the enrichment of the soul is concerned, an appreciation for art, culture, truth, and beauty, and so forth, is far better cultivated outside of the perfunctory, top-down, pseudo-intellectual system of rentseeking that actually exists in our centers of higher education.
I'm glad you're back, though, Hami! :hug:
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
In my experience psych majors pick the field because they want to diagnose themselves.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Rude!
How does that make you feel?
See, this is kind of what I was talking about. I think garb's doing fine.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their
hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Instead of anthropology and law, I could have become an engineer. Then I too could have known the glory that is a STEM career. :)
But to be clear the solution isn't closing down liberal arts departments entirely, but some sort of centralized effort by the responsible governmental authorities to tailor the actual number of liberal arts graduates to the number of liberal arts jobs that are available. And this shouldn't be limited to liberal arts, but STEM as well. Specific training in the absence of actual employment opportunity is a waste of human capital, and winds up fucking up job markets (this is what's happened in the US) along with creating a huge education-industrial complex that is for-profit in all but name (ditto).
Though at least with STEM majors there's the possibility of them innovating something and creating their own markets. I'm relatively certain that a new critical theory of Romantic literature, for example, has ever increased GDP.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Yup.
More generally: it's a good thing if more students have more STEM aspects to their education (statistics, programming, engineering) even if they study humanities. But the idea that we have a "STEM shortage" is patently ridiculous.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Just off the cuff, this appears to be a lot more based on the general dysfunction accruing to companies lately as they attempt to respond to shareholder demands for profits as aggregate demand continues to sag. It's related to the apocalyptic problems with college, and to some degree is driven by that (we can hold out for a perfect candidate!), but I'd say the real takeaway is that the jobs that they can't fill evidently are simply not direly needed, because the organization can continue to run without it--in fact, at a lower cost, as long as it isn't filled.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 01:09:35 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Yup.
More generally: it's a good thing if more students have more STEM aspects to their education (statistics, programming, engineering) even if they study humanities. But the idea that we have a "STEM shortage" is patently ridiculous.
Yes, it's not that we need more STEM grads, necessarily, but rather fewer humanities grads, and anyone who does go to college--all things being equal--should be going STEM. Because otherwise they're probably wasting money, at least for students outside of the elite universities.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Really? Are salaries for STEM graduates rising rapidly due to shortages and fights over talent?
I have gone round and round on Reddit and Hacker News about this, and it seems to me there is a shortage of unicorns willing to work for pack mule wages. That is, standards are extremely high but salaries are not. At least, not as high as they should be if the situation was as dire as hiring managers claim. It is both entertaining and frustrating to see a company that whines about the shortage of talented engineers rejecting the author of a well-known and widely-used software package (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695102) because he couldn't pass their hazinginterview.
There seems to be major cognitive dissonance in the companies, governments, and universities pushing STEM education.
Just off the cuff, this appears to be a lot more based on the general dysfunction accruing to companies lately as they attempt to respond to shareholder demands for profits as aggregate demand continues to sag. It's related to the apocalyptic problems with college, and to some degree is driven by that (we can hold out for a perfect candidate!), but I'd say the real takeaway is that the jobs that they can't fill evidently are simply not direly needed, because the organization can continue to run without it--in fact, at a lower cost, as long as it isn't filled.
The problem in part has been created by large HR departments who are ignorant of technical skills and so reject any candidate who does not match 100% of input keywords. There's no shortage of highly skilled STEM/IT people out there, but there's a shortage of people who have 7 years of experience in a programming language that's only 2 years old and are willing to work for the salary of someone working at Arby's.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:12:29 PM
Yes, it's not that we need more STEM grads, necessarily, but rather fewer humanities grads, and anyone who does go to college--all things being equal--should be going STEM. Because otherwise they're probably wasting money, at least for students outside of the elite universities.
Most people are soon going to be replaced by robots, so I'm not sure it matters too much what we do. And I say this as someone whose primary output is highly skilled STEM graduates.
p.s. hire my students!
That's true. There's a component to hiring irrationality that is based on HR culture and has little to do with anything at all in the outside world.
Meanwhile, to be in an HR department you need an actual HR degree. It's something a lot of JD-holders have noticed, that a lot of quasi-legal jobs actually have their own specific programs that fill them. <_<
I thought you're a lawyer. :huh:
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:12:29 PM
Yes, it's not that we need more STEM grads, necessarily, but rather fewer humanities grads, and anyone who does go to college--all things being equal--should be going STEM. Because otherwise they're probably wasting money, at least for students outside of the elite universities.
Most people are soon going to be replaced by robots, so I'm not sure it matters too much what we do. And I say this as someone whose primary output is highly skilled STEM graduates.
p.s. hire my students!
If people avoid college, they can buy stock in the robot-building companies.
That's all I've got that doesn't involve a universal guaranteed income.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:18:19 PM
If people avoid college, they can buy stock in the robot-building companies.
That's all I've got that doesn't involve a universal guaranteed income.
Buy on margin!
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 01:18:07 PM
I thought you're a lawyer. :huh:
I worked at a law firm until I moved to Pittsburgh. It's not a hub of doc review activity the way Columbia, SC, is, and also the rules are a little different here (DR places that do exist tend to want someone with an active bar license). But I've always been trying to find a job outside of the law qua law, because if you want to talk about low-paid unicorns, shit...
Just talk to Capetan Mihali, graduate of Harvard Law.
How much of that HR nonsense is an actual thing, and not an isolated example turning into a myth? And how often do people actually get hired through job postings, as opposed to through a recruiter?
In my experience, never.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 01:18:07 PM
I thought you're a lawyer. :huh:
I worked at a law firm until I moved to Pittsburgh. It's not a hub of doc review activity the way Columbia, SC, is, and also the rules are a little different here (DR places that do exist tend to want someone with an active bar license). But I've always been trying to find a job outside of the law qua law, because if you want to talk about low-paid unicorns, shit...
Just talk to Capetan Mihali, graduate of Harvard Law.
Go hire some talented CMU CS grads and start a business selling software that replaces paralegals.
I'm not kidding, and you owe me 25% equity. I'll settle for 15%.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:08:03 PM
But to be clear the solution isn't closing down liberal arts departments entirely, but some sort of centralized effort by the responsible governmental authorities to tailor the actual number of liberal arts graduates to the number of liberal arts jobs that are available. And this shouldn't be limited to liberal arts, but STEM as well. Specific training in the absence of actual employment opportunity is a waste of human capital, and winds up fucking up job markets (this is what's happened in the US) along with creating a huge education-industrial complex that is for-profit in all but name (ditto).
Though at least with STEM majors there's the possibility of them innovating something and creating their own markets. I'm relatively certain that a new critical theory of Romantic literature, for example, has ever increased GDP.
University degrees are not job training and should not be tied to the job market. That is actually one of the problems underpinning the cognitive dissonance I was referring to. These companies, in all fields nowadays, expect students to graduate pre-trained and ready to work on day one. That's not how universities are supposed to work. In the past, new grads were recognized as being "book-smart" but in need of a few months or mentorship to function in the role they were hired for. Now they are expected to just jump right in, and when they can't companies start whining about shortages.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
Just off the cuff, this appears to be a lot more based on the general dysfunction accruing to companies lately as they attempt to respond to shareholder demands for profits as aggregate demand continues to sag. It's related to the apocalyptic problems with college, and to some degree is driven by that (we can hold out for a perfect candidate!), but I'd say the real takeaway is that the jobs that they can't fill evidently are simply not direly needed, because the organization can continue to run without it--in fact, at a lower cost, as long as it isn't filled.
That is actually a point I repeatedly raise in opposition to the shortage. If your organization can function without significant pain with the req open, is the hire really necessary? If it isn't necessary, how can you complain about shortages when you can't fill it to your liking?
The cynical claim these postings are intentional in order to get H1b employees at cut rates. I think it is just clueless management.
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
According to whom? Psychologists? :yeahright:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields
QuoteSTEM-eligible degrees in US immigration
For more details on Temporary foreign workers, see Global labor arbitrage, H-1B visa, and Optional Practical Training.
An exhaustive list of STEM disciplines does not exist because the definition varies by organization. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement lists disciplines including physics, actuarial science, chemistry, biology, mathematics, applied mathematics, statistics, computer science, computational science, psychology, biochemistry, robotics, computer engineering, electrical engineering, electronics, mechanical engineering, industrial engineering, information science, civil engineering, aerospace engineering, chemical engineering, astrophysics, astronomy, optics, nanotechnology, nuclear physics, mathematical biology, operations research, neurobiology, biomechanics, bioinformatics, acoustical engineering, geographic information systems, atmospheric sciences, educational/instructional technology, software engineering, and educational research.
And then yes among psychs:
http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/reports/stem-discipline.aspx
QuoteThe goal of this report is to review the current status of psychology as a STEM discipline, articulate the problem of inconsistent recognition of psychology as a core STEM discipline, provide a rationale for consistent recognition of psychology as a STEM discipline, and recommend specific actions to achieve this goal.
One of those is not like the others. :hmm:
Educational research :yes:
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:32:58 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 01:08:03 PM
But to be clear the solution isn't closing down liberal arts departments entirely, but some sort of centralized effort by the responsible governmental authorities to tailor the actual number of liberal arts graduates to the number of liberal arts jobs that are available. And this shouldn't be limited to liberal arts, but STEM as well. Specific training in the absence of actual employment opportunity is a waste of human capital, and winds up fucking up job markets (this is what's happened in the US) along with creating a huge education-industrial complex that is for-profit in all but name (ditto).
Though at least with STEM majors there's the possibility of them innovating something and creating their own markets. I'm relatively certain that a new critical theory of Romantic literature, for example, has ever increased GDP.
University degrees are not job training and should not be tied to the job market. That is actually one of the problems underpinning the cognitive dissonance I was referring to. These companies, in all fields nowadays, expect students to graduate pre-trained and ready to work on day one. That's not how universities are supposed to work. In the past, new grads were recognized as being "book-smart" but in need of a few months or mentorship to function in the role they were hired for. Now they are expected to just jump right in, and when they can't companies start whining about shortages.
Heh, in Canada, even allegedly strictly professional law schools aren't really business training: people take bar admissions training *after* law school, and do what amounts to an apprenticeship at law firms and the like ("articling").
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 01:21:07 PM
How much of that HR nonsense is an actual thing, and not an isolated example turning into a myth? And how often do people actually get hired through job postings, as opposed to through a recruiter?
This is a very Silicon Valley perspective, and one I have acquired second-hand, so keep that in mind.
The oft-quoted statistic is that it takes about 50 resume submissions to yield an interview, and about 4 interviews to yield an offer when going through job postings. My response rate is much worse. The problem here is the "resume blasters" who shovel their resume at every open position regardless of applicability. Nobody has a good way of filtering the signal out of this noise.
My personal experience with recruiters is that about 6 in 10 have misunderstood my background and are pursuing me for an inappropriate position, 3 in 10 are pursuing me for something that is kinda-sorta aligned with by background (though not necessarily with my desired path), and 1 in 10 presents a desirable opening. Responding to that 1 in 10 yields an interview 50 %- 60% of the time. I have been told that I have better luck with recruiters than people who live in "hot" areas.
Personal referrals are supposed to be almost a guaranteed interview. I don't know, because I've never had a real referral and only one of my acquaintance referrals has yielded an interview. Thus, the vapidly-dispensed advice on various forums is to "network". Apparently many companies have decided that interviewing a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend is somehow less risky than interviewing random people.
The issue with the "isolated example" is that, in this corner of the STEM world, certain companies like Google have disproportionate influence. Smaller companies cargo cult (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science) Google practices without bothering to analyze whether these practices are applicable to their situation. They just want to "be like Google".
Unlike Sweden Japan doesn't look like a Third World shithole with rampant vandalism, beggars everywhere etc. I have more confidence in Japan's abilities to overcome the challenges of the next 100 years than I have in Sweden's.
One would hope that the pendulum will swing back to children and stable family life once an entire generation has died alone and forgotten save for when the smell got so bad people living downwind noticed.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 16, 2015, 03:13:38 PM
One would hope that the pendulum will swing back to children and stable family life once an entire generation has died alone and forgotten save for when the smell got so bad people living downwind noticed.
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
Fortunately those can now all be replaced by data scientists.
Quote from: Maximus on September 16, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
Journalists, sociologists, philosophers etc. provide us with data for that. Without knowing ourselves - as a society, as a nation, as a group etc. - we are not capable of self reflection because we are in the dark. All that is left then is the cacophony of social media and infotainment - that can be chaotic at best and completely manipulated by those in power at worst.
Fortunately those can now all be replaced by data scientists.
Yeah somehow I don't think that will be the same...unless we are talking rogue data scientists? :D
The principle output of humanities departments these days seems to be manufactured outrage.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2015, 03:32:36 PM
The principle output of humanities departments these days seems to be manufactured outrage.
They may be lacking sound principles, judging by the PC concepts they keep on producing, but what should be their princip
al output then, according to you? :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2015, 03:39:42 PM
They may be lacking sound principles, judging by the PC concepts they keep on producing, but what should be their principal output then, according to you? :P
Knowledge.
Easier said than done.
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2015, 10:50:50 AM
The problem is the government attempting to "pick winners" by such a blunt tool, rather than allowing students to sink or swim based on their individual choices.
Now granted that students often make terrible choices - but they all make different choices. Governments (everywhere) make terrible choices too, but in this case they are choosing to limit the options available to individuals - if they are wrong, the consequences are a lot more severe than individual students making bad choices: Japan deprived of students in whole sections of academics. If those studies happen to contribute in some way to success, Japan will lose out.
Lots of academic work doesn't appear to contribute directly to success, even in the STEM fields. However, it may contribute indirectly in all sorts of ways. That's why indulging basic human curiousity and creativity is a sound idea, rather than focussing to narrowly on what makes money short-term.
I don't disagree with any of this, but OTOH, if enrollment in Japanese universities is actually falling as rapidly as the article in the OP suggests, then some budget cutting may be necessary somewhere. I don't think we have enough information to say exactly where those cuts should be made. If there are universities with an enrollment of, say, 10,000 that only have 30 students majoring in the humanities, well, then those institutions probably should close their humanities departments. But if 4000 students are majoring in the humanities, then if cuts need to be made, across-the-board cuts would seem a better choice. The tone of the article makes it sound like the situation is closer to the latter, but it doesn't really say.
Is formal logic part of STEM?
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 16, 2015, 01:50:55 PM
My personal experience with recruiters is that about 6 in 10 have misunderstood my background and are pursuing me for an inappropriate position, 3 in 10 are pursuing me for something that is kinda-sorta aligned with by background (though not necessarily with my desired path), and 1 in 10 presents a desirable opening. Responding to that 1 in 10 yields an interview 50 %- 60% of the time. I have been told that I have better luck with recruiters than people who live in "hot" areas.
I had a similar experience on my last go-round. The problem, for me, is that "Radio Frequency Engineer" can mean anything from someone who evaluates the effects of RF on computer components to someone who designs filters, to someone who designs cellular network. Recruiters usually can't tell the difference.
Today, on the other side, we're looking for people who can design radio networks, and we frequently get resumes for people who designed digital chips for radios. (Resumes which made it past our HR...)
Despite what some here seem to proscribe as essential, Japan will struggle on even without superfluous liberal arts and boatloads of immigrants.
Japan's future is basically cozy decline. It's really, really cozy.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:30:15 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 16, 2015, 10:29:26 AM
Also, Japan have a dire demographic problem. It's not lack of STEM graduates, it's lack of graduates. I'm not knowledgeable enough about their society and laws, but they need immigrants.
From what I heard, many people do not want to migrate there due to Japanese people's horrible racism.
A match made in Lettowist heaven.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 16, 2015, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Isn't psychology both a social science and STEM?
Psychology is mostly studied by students who either don't know why they are at university, or failed out of other subjects.
Or, you know, people who want to go into psychiatry, counseling and related fields. :rolleyes:
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 12:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
If we are to be serious for just a moment, I really question this premise. Russia is actually a pretty well-read country, and it certainly has a lot of cultural achievements to be proud of. One of the "advantages" of Soviet dictatorship was that culture could be shoved down your throat. It sure did wonders steering Russians away from the cattle stage.
Yes, I understand the need for some rounding, but STEM people with some social science side interests tend to be way deeper thinkers than social science airheads.
The fact that it was shoved down their throat made it worthless. Culture has to be willingly explored for you to gain anything from it.
Give me three months to train and free month in the country and I'll correct that demographic problem.
Immigrants solve the declining Japanese population problem the way getting someone to urinate in your canteen solves a diminishing water problem.
Honshu boning trip '16. Ide can come along too. He will be my dog robber.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 16, 2015, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2015, 12:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
Social sciences give us the capacity for self-reflection, so it's hardly a surprise that any government with authoritarian tendencies would want to abolish those - it is much easier to rule cattle, even if that cattle can do math.
If we are to be serious for just a moment, I really question this premise. Russia is actually a pretty well-read country, and it certainly has a lot of cultural achievements to be proud of. One of the "advantages" of Soviet dictatorship was that culture could be shoved down your throat. It sure did wonders steering Russians away from the cattle stage.
Yes, I understand the need for some rounding, but STEM people with some social science side interests tend to be way deeper thinkers than social science airheads.
The fact that it was shoved down their throat made it worthless. Culture has to be willingly explored for you to gain anything from it.
The Soviet also viewed culture as a tool for indoctrination. Writing the wrong book could get you in serious trouble, and you might not even know why it's the wrong book.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 16, 2015, 07:10:52 PM
Honshu boning trip '16. Ide can come along too. He will be my dog robber.
I'm just across the straight! I can come. Teach me 'oh master! :worthy:
What Boner has can't be taught; only acquired through a freak industrial accident.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 01:37:57 PM
Educational research :yes:
That was the one that jumped out at me as well.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
And where do you get your government operators? Technocrats are notoriously bad with managing the human portions of their constituencies. Does anybody really want Japan to turn into a country run by Japanese Mark Zuckerberg clones?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 16, 2015, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
I don't think anybody is saying let's abolish all social sciences. But the point is, we don't have infinite resources and more social sciences may not be an optimal allocation of resources. Why do you think you know more about the Japanese if they have the right amount of social science courses?
And where do you get your government operators? Technocrats are notoriously bad with managing the human portions of their constituencies. Does anybody really want Japan to turn into a country run by Japanese Mark Zuckerberg clones?
Universities are largely funded by taxpayers. Somebody needs to ensure that universities act in a way that is in accordance with public interest, and that somebody is the government. Ideally, students should be able to study whatever they want. This best represents market demand. But that is clearly unrealistic, because universities need to set up the infrastructure in place (largely teaching staff) before they can meet student demand. This effectively places a quota on the number of students that can be accepted into any given discipline. Because universities are largely funded by taxpayers and not tuition, universities do not have enough incentive to respond to student/market demand rapidly. Their tendency is to retain their existing teaching staff. This results in too much capacity for legacy disciplines, and not enough capacity for new disciplines. This is where governments come in.
Government bureaucrats aren't perfect. But this is better than the other option, which is to let the universities do whatever they want with taxpayer money without consequences.
In HK, actually this isn't done by government bureaucrats. There is a committee with overseas experts, lay members and university representatives that make decisions on university funding.
I'm glad people who think like Mono are in charge in Asia - this means, for all their industriousness they will never beat the West.
In fact look at what happened to Japan - they came close (remember all the fears of the Japanese taking over the US economy in the 70s and the 80s?) but then started to slide back, exactly because creativity and innovativeness (in a true sense, not just how to make a smaller computer) cannot be centrally planned. Same will happen with China - they have been growing because they started from really really low and they just have a shitload of people, so in absolute numbers it seems staggering - but there is only a certain (sub-Western) level they will reach and then they will began to slide back - you could say that this has already begun.
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
That reason is called Steve Jobs :P
Quote from: Monoriu on September 17, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
That reason is called Steve Jobs :P
Who never studied STEM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 17, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
That reason is called Steve Jobs :P
Jobs never invented anything.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 01:04:53 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 17, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
That reason is called Steve Jobs :P
Who never studied STEM
The point is, I doubt the amount of funding that social sciences get has much to do with the differences between the US and Japan.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 01:04:53 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 17, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
That reason is called Steve Jobs :P
Who never studied STEM
And would never have succeeded in East Asia.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 17, 2015, 01:44:07 AM
And would never have succeeded in East Asia.
Why not? Li Ka Shing, richest man in Hong Kong and frequently considered one of the richest 20-30 men in the world, never completed high school. Jack Ma, owner of Alibaba.com, made his billions from the internet. His education was unremarkable.
You just don't get it, Mono. The point I was making was about the overall superiority of the West (or more specifically, USA) over Asia and reasons for that. The fact that there are rich people in Asia hardly addresses that point. You can be rich from selling shit other people invented. That does not make you creative, in a culture-shaping way.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 17, 2015, 01:20:53 AMThe point is, I doubt the amount of funding that social sciences get has much to do with the differences between the US and Japan.
Both countries have different higher education models.
The point is, the US government does not try to decide what people should study by an administrative fiat.
Don't let the demiwesterners get you down, Mono. The accusation that east asians can't think creatively because they are part of a collective hivemind identity is one of the last refuges of western prejudice.
You really must forgive them; I am given to understand Martinus recently purchased an indulgence for exactly that reason.
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
Don't let the demiwesterners get you down, Mono. The accusation that east asians can't think creatively because they are part of a collective hivemind identity is one of the last refuges of western prejudice.
You really must forgive them; I am given to understand Martinus recently purchased an indulgence for exactly that reason.
It's hardly a criticsm that only westerners make, I have Korean teachers tell me this is the biggest problem with Korean education and culture all the time.
By the way, Tim and other Eastern Asian fanboys - can you verify something for me.
I have a friend working for Samsung (he is a rather clever IT guy) here in Poland. As a part of his induction he went through a "cultural awareness" programme of sorts (something pretty common for international companies) but as a part of the training they were told that if their superior tells them to do something, they must not ask questions because it implies that either their superior is stupid (for not giving clear instructions) or they are stupid (for not understanding clear instructions).
Is this for real? I find it hard to believe that an international corporation would do something so moronic and inefficient.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
By the way, Tim and other Eastern Asian fanboys - can you verify something for me.
I have a friend working for Samsung (he is a rather clever IT guy) here in Poland. As a part of his induction he went through a "cultural awareness" programme of sorts (something pretty common for international companies) but as a part of the training they were told that if their superior tells them to do something, they must not ask questions because it implies that either their superior is stupid (for not giving clear instructions) or they are stupid (for not understanding clear instructions).
Is this for real? I find it hard to believe that an international corporation would do something so moronic and inefficient.
It almost certainly different in a copropate enviornment, where there is a are rock solid chain of command, everyone is fluent in english, and is simply more formal in general, however I ask questions all the time. Class preperations could not be successfully made otherwise. But I'm basically on the same level as my coteachers, and there are often language misunderstandings we have to work through.
It is my understanding, that a lot of times Koreans just shut their mouths and follow orders. Sometimes they question or object, but nine times out of ten they end up following orders no matter how stupid the command is anyways.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 17, 2015, 02:12:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
By the way, Tim and other Eastern Asian fanboys - can you verify something for me.
I have a friend working for Samsung (he is a rather clever IT guy) here in Poland. As a part of his induction he went through a "cultural awareness" programme of sorts (something pretty common for international companies) but as a part of the training they were told that if their superior tells them to do something, they must not ask questions because it implies that either their superior is stupid (for not giving clear instructions) or they are stupid (for not understanding clear instructions).
Is this for real? I find it hard to believe that an international corporation would do something so moronic and inefficient.
It might be different in a copropate enviornment, where there is a are rock solid chain of command, everyone is fluent in english, and is simply more formal in general, however I ask questions all the time. Class preperations could not be successfully made otherwise. But I'm basically on the same level as my coteachers, and their are often language misunderstandings we have to work through.
Do you mean they can speak English and you can't or...? :lol:
Was hoping to beat you with that edit. <_<
I changed my answer substansially.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 17, 2015, 02:15:55 AM
Was hoping to beat you with that edit. <_<
I changed my answer substansially.
:hug:
Sorry, couldn't miss such an opportunity. :P
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
By the way, Tim and other Eastern Asian fanboys - can you verify something for me.
I have a friend working for Samsung (he is a rather clever IT guy) here in Poland. As a part of his induction he went through a "cultural awareness" programme of sorts (something pretty common for international companies) but as a part of the training they were told that if their superior tells them to do something, they must not ask questions because it implies that either their superior is stupid (for not giving clear instructions) or they are stupid (for not understanding clear instructions).
Is this for real? I find it hard to believe that an international corporation would do something so moronic and inefficient.
Even within the same organisation, each boss is different.
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
I am given to understand Martinus recently purchased an indulgence for exactly that reason.
:lol:
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 16, 2015, 07:07:58 PM
Immigrants solve the declining Japanese population problem the way getting someone to urinate in your canteen solves a diminishing water problem.
... says the potential immigrant to Japan, married to a Japanese lady. :hmm:
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
Don't let the demiwesterners get you down, Mono. The accusation that east asians can't think creatively because they are part of a collective hivemind identity is one of the last refuges of western prejudice.
Considering the weird ass shit the Japanese come up with I never thought this held much water. Nobody in the west is making movies about WWII warships being personified by teenage girls.
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2015, 08:04:25 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
Don't let the demiwesterners get you down, Mono. The accusation that east asians can't think creatively because they are part of a collective hivemind identity is one of the last refuges of western prejudice.
Considering the weird ass shit the Japanese come up with I never thought this held much water. Nobody in the west is making movies about WWII warships being personified by teenage girls.
Hey, no-one ever said the hive-mind was particularly
sane. :D
Quote from: Malthus on September 17, 2015, 07:56:15 AM
... says the potential immigrant to Japan, married to a Japanese lady. :hmm:
I'm an immigrant, not a potential immigrant.
But the progeny that will soon come into the world will be told all his life he's a "half" by his peers, rather than a proper Japanese. His raising will also mark him as quite different, due to a trifling immigrant passing on inferior culture rather than assimilating.
I'm certainly no solution to Japan's problems. The best I can offer is obsequious service at the feet of my overlords.
Maybe you should move the kid back to the States. It would have citizenship, because despite all the letters I've sent to the Department of State, as far as I know they still haven't taken any action. :P
The childhood he'll get in rural Japan should be far more safe and pleasant than living in the South. He'll have his druthers when he's 18, and can reject either US or Japanese citizenship in favor of the other.
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 08:21:20 AM
I'm certainly no solution to Japan's problems. The best I can offer is obsequious service at the feet of my overlords.
You damn collabo. :(
Japanese civilization is superior. The West is going ever so gentle into that good night.
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 08:43:36 AM
The childhood he'll get in rural Japan should be far more safe and pleasant than living in the South. He'll have his druthers when he's 18, and can reject either US or Japanese citizenship in favor of the other.
Well, maybe by that time the "in outer space" option will be available. ;)
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2015, 10:46:36 AM
Japanese civilization is superior. The West is going ever so gentle into that good night.
Japanese civilization committed seppukku decades ago.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
I'm glad people who think like Mono are in charge in Asia - this means, for all their industriousness they will never beat the West.
In fact look at what happened to Japan - they came close (remember all the fears of the Japanese taking over the US economy in the 70s and the 80s?) but then started to slide back, exactly because creativity and innovativeness (in a true sense, not just how to make a smaller computer) cannot be centrally planned. Same will happen with China - they have been growing because they started from really really low and they just have a shitload of people, so in absolute numbers it seems staggering - but there is only a certain (sub-Western) level they will reach and then they will began to slide back - you could say that this has already begun.
There is a reason Americans invented the iPhone and the best Chinese can do is to make it (or plagiarise it) - and not the other way around.
I think the reason the Japanese economy hit a brick wall is their economy is based around cartels.
Amongst my high schoolers in Japan it was known even at their young age that the humanities were the way to go.
Your future company would randomly assign you to a department anyway so there was no point studying something difficult and practical, best to just spend a few years "studying" something light and easy.
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 17, 2015, 08:43:36 AM
The childhood he'll get in rural Japan should be far more safe and pleasant than living in the South. He'll have his druthers when he's 18, and can reject either US or Japanese citizenship in favor of the other.
I guess on the plus side he won't have any black churches to shoot up in Japan.
Lettuce, are you working? If so, legit or gray market?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2015, 11:11:06 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2015, 10:46:36 AM
Japanese civilization is superior. The West is going ever so gentle into that good night.
Japanese civilization committed seppukku decades ago.
A scathing indictment of Western civilization.
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
Unlike Sweden Japan doesn't look like a Third World shithole with rampant vandalism, beggars everywhere etc. I have more confidence in Japan's abilities to overcome the challenges of the next 100 years than I have in Sweden's.
Unlike most western countries it does have abandoned decaying buildings and disjointed incomplete road barriers everywhere though.
Also though you rarely see beggars there are plentiful homeless to be seen in japan. THey just tend to behave themselves.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2015, 03:46:43 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2015, 03:39:42 PM
They may be lacking sound principles, judging by the PC concepts they keep on producing, but what should be their principal output then, according to you? :P
Knowledge.
You mean "knowledge Yi agrees with." PC concepts are knowledge. They just aren't knowledge that you personally value.
Quote from: Tyr on September 17, 2015, 01:19:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
Unlike Sweden Japan doesn't look like a Third World shithole with rampant vandalism, beggars everywhere etc. I have more confidence in Japan's abilities to overcome the challenges of the next 100 years than I have in Sweden's.
Unlike most western countries it does have abandoned decaying buildings and disjointed incomplete road barriers everywhere though.
Seriously? You been in Swiss Heaven that long?
Quote from: Ideologue on September 17, 2015, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on September 17, 2015, 01:19:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
Unlike Sweden Japan doesn't look like a Third World shithole with rampant vandalism, beggars everywhere etc. I have more confidence in Japan's abilities to overcome the challenges of the next 100 years than I have in Sweden's.
Unlike most western countries it does have abandoned decaying buildings and disjointed incomplete road barriers everywhere though.
Seriously? You been in Swiss Heaven that long?
What is Swiss Heaven?
Where you came from, angel.
Jos describes it as hell.
Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2015, 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2015, 03:46:43 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2015, 03:39:42 PM
They may be lacking sound principles, judging by the PC concepts they keep on producing, but what should be their principal output then, according to you? :P
Knowledge.
You mean "knowledge Yi agrees with." PC concepts are knowledge. They just aren't knowledge that you personally value.
In Yi's defense things like "trigger warnings", and "microagression", aren't valuable to anyone.
They aren't. Man up millinials.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 12:59:36 PM
Anyway, the actual social sciences depend upon STEM methods and training in data-driven approaches. Otherwise, it's anecdote-driven bloviation. And the latter is exactly what is mostly taught in history and English departments--the Hobby Colleges of our universities. Indeed, as far as the enrichment of the soul is concerned, an appreciation for art, culture, truth, and beauty, and so forth, is far better cultivated outside of the perfunctory, top-down, pseudo-intellectual system of rentseeking that actually exists in our centers of higher education.
1. Pure mathematics is not much more directly applicable to job tasks than French lit. The social sciences are among the most significant areas where mathematics is applied and many of the "data-driven" methods you refer to derive from those disciplines.
2. There isn't infinite demand for coders or chemists.
3. In the white collar world, key skills include effective verbal and written communication, high-level reading comprehension, ability to collaborate effectively in teams, ability to persuade others, critical reasoning, creativity. The business world is a complex, social world and does not follow predictable rules. That's not to say that studying English or sociology is the way to build those skills, but it's also true that getting a BS in a STEM discipline is not an surefire way of acquiring them either.
4. It's kind of depressing that you went to university and that it all you got it of it. Of course, there is plenty of careerism, posturing, and "pseudo-intellectual bloviating" at all universities. There are also smart and talented people - fellow students or profs pursuing interesting research programs - and not just at the "elite" institutions. It's up to the student to make the most of that opportunity.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 17, 2015, 05:16:38 PM
1. Pure mathematics is not much more directly applicable to job tasks than French lit. The social sciences are among the most significant areas where mathematics is applied and many of the "data-driven" methods you refer to derive from those disciplines.
Can you elaborate on this first point? I wonder whether I'm just not familiar with some applications, or we're defining social sciences, significant, and/or data-driven differently.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2015, 10:34:00 PM
Government bureaucrats aren't perfect. But this is better than the other option, which is to let the universities do whatever they want with taxpayer money without consequences.
Those aren't the only two options. :lol:
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 17, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
They aren't. Man up millinials.
I find the whole concept bizarre. I wouldn't even know about that shit if wasn't fore Spellus. You know what wasn't microagression? When some asshole came at me with a fucking bat calling me a kike. I'm not even a Jew!
Maybe he meant to call you a dyke.
Seedy thought I looked like a Jew as well. :(
"as well"?
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2015, 06:09:46 PM
Can you elaborate on this first point? I wonder whether I'm just not familiar with some applications, or we're defining social sciences, significant, and/or data-driven differently.
Modern economics is essential a branch of applied mathematics and a big trend right now is creative experimental design and improving statistical technique.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 17, 2015, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 16, 2015, 12:59:36 PM
Anyway, the actual social sciences depend upon STEM methods and training in data-driven approaches. Otherwise, it's anecdote-driven bloviation. And the latter is exactly what is mostly taught in history and English departments--the Hobby Colleges of our universities. Indeed, as far as the enrichment of the soul is concerned, an appreciation for art, culture, truth, and beauty, and so forth, is far better cultivated outside of the perfunctory, top-down, pseudo-intellectual system of rentseeking that actually exists in our centers of higher education.
1. Pure mathematics is not much more directly applicable to job tasks than French lit. The social sciences are among the most significant areas where mathematics is applied and many of the "data-driven" methods you refer to derive from those disciplines.
Maybe that's even true--let's assume for the moment it is, although I have reason to doubt that the analytical and quantitative skills taught in pure math are less applicable than the analytical skills taught in French literature (outside of a job as French translator or a similar job where French fluency is required, anyway). Most people forced to accept that the signaling content of a French lit degree and the signaling content of a mathematics degree are wildly different. Whether this
should be the case is a matter for debate--I'm sympathetic to the notion Moltke raised, that corps are adamant in their refusal to train new hires and develop their own human capital, I truly am. But if a recent high school grad were to ask either of us for advice, I hope we could be clear-eyed enough to give advice about the world as it is, not the world as we wish it were.
Quote2. There isn't infinite demand for coders or chemists.
No, and I never said there was; but meanwhile, there is near-zero demand for historians.
Quote3. In the white collar world, key skills include effective verbal and written communication, high-level reading comprehension, ability to collaborate effectively in teams, ability to persuade others, critical reasoning, creativity. The business world is a complex, social world and does not follow predictable rules. That's not to say that studying English or sociology is the way to build those skills, but it's also true that getting a BS in a STEM discipline is not an surefire way of acquiring them either.
Certainly I agree when it comes to communication, and writing courses are something people need, even if they don't need English degrees; and my understanding is that STEM majors tend to not get the kind of instruction they need in this regard. I'd aver that teamwork is almost certainly taught better in STEM courses, where group projects are more commonplace and involve tangible goals and results. (Whereas the core of humanities education is the essay, an essentially solitary pursuit.)
Quote4. It's kind of depressing that you went to university and that it all you got it of it. Of course, there is plenty of careerism, posturing, and "pseudo-intellectual bloviating" at all universities. There are also smart and talented people - fellow students or profs pursuing interesting research programs - and not just at the "elite" institutions.
It's really hard not to ask, "How would you know?" You work in a white shoe Manhattan law firm. Obviously, what you see and what I see would be different, since we inhabit different worlds.
If anything, it's kind of depressing how good an ideological structure like the American university system can be at reproducing itself within its students. Let me see if you'll concede this extremely narrow point: on a financial level, college degrees are mainly economic signaling devices, and some colleges and programs are more worthwhile at delivering signals that people actually want to hear.
QuoteIt's up to the student to make the most of that opportunity.
Bootstraps!
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2015, 10:21:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 17, 2015, 06:09:46 PM
Can you elaborate on this first point? I wonder whether I'm just not familiar with some applications, or we're defining social sciences, significant, and/or data-driven differently.
Modern economics is essential a branch of applied mathematics and a big trend right now is creative experimental design and improving statistical technique.
Well, I think economics is special, and not merely a "social science". It by its nature is a very quantitative field, and the fact that's it's not a hard science yet is more due to the fact that it's still in the dark ages rather than because it is an inherently social science field. If that's the only example, then I'm not convinced.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 18, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
Certainly I agree when it comes to communication, and writing courses are something people need, even if they don't need English degrees; and my understanding is that STEM majors tend to not get the kind of instruction they need in this regard.
For my major we had to take a year of communication courses as well as a series of junior or senior level courses in the social studies or humanities. I think that's standard in STEM fields, the goal is to make you a well rounded techie.
QuoteI'd aver that teamwork is almost certainly taught better in STEM courses, where group projects are more commonplace and involve tangible goals and results. (Whereas the core of humanities education is the essay, an essentially solitary pursuit.)
When I was in graduate school I took a physics lab. I was talking with the prof and one of the over-achiever physics grad students one day.
Grad Student: I wish my courses had more group projects and teamwork!
Savonarola: If you were put on a group project, you'd end up doing all the work.
Professor: Then it's good preparation for the real world.
Savonarola: Well, yes, that's true :(
Group projects in college are inane. In the real world, you have a manager with some level of authority overseeing everyone's contributions, so in a non-dysfunctional workplace, free-riding is limited. In college group projects, it's anarchy and a game of chicken. The one who cares the most about the grade will be the first one to yield and actually get shit done.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 17, 2015, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on September 17, 2015, 01:19:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 16, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
Unlike Sweden Japan doesn't look like a Third World shithole with rampant vandalism, beggars everywhere etc. I have more confidence in Japan's abilities to overcome the challenges of the next 100 years than I have in Sweden's.
Unlike most western countries it does have abandoned decaying buildings and disjointed incomplete road barriers everywhere though.
Seriously? You been in Swiss Heaven that long?
I've never been to the US (though I assume Detroit isn't the norm there) but if it is like that then its just one western country.
Of European countries I've been to...Even Romania had nothing on Japan for abandoned buildings and urban decay.
Quote from: DGuller on September 18, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Group projects in college are inane. In the real world, you have a manager with some level of authority overseeing everyone's contributions, so in a non-dysfunctional workplace, free-riding is limited. In college group projects, it's anarchy and a game of chicken. The one who cares the most about the grade will be the first one to yield and actually get shit done.
Yeah it's such an artificial thing.
Most cities in the US aren't like that because the land is too valuable so the buildings get torn down and replaced. The exceptions tend to be mid 20th century industrial centers with declining populations, mostly in the Midwest. Also, small towns that lost their reason for being.
Quote from: DGuller on September 18, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Group projects in college are inane. In the real world, you have a manager with some level of authority overseeing everyone's contributions, so in a non-dysfunctional workplace, free-riding is limited. In college group projects, it's anarchy and a game of chicken. The one who cares the most about the grade will be the first one to yield and actually get shit done.
So true.
Quote from: DGuller on September 18, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Group projects in college are inane. In the real world, you have a manager with some level of authority overseeing everyone's contributions, so in a non-dysfunctional workplace, free-riding is limited. In college group projects, it's anarchy and a game of chicken. The one who cares the most about the grade will be the first one to yield and actually get shit done.
I got 1 B in graduate school.
It was in a class where 90% of our grade was a final group presentation. The group would get a grade, and it would be adjusted up or down based on the anonymous feedback from other team members.
My group sucked. Our analysis was obviously wrong--calculations that based on math had to be equivalent were not--in 30 seconds our professor would know we fucked up the basics. So the night before, the rest of my group was like, "whatever, fuck it." I was too embarrassed to present the shit we had, so I stayed up all night--by myself--and got the analysis right.
So we come to the presentation the next morning. Because I was the one that re did it all the night before, I was the only one that knew what we had in our presentation, and had to present about 75% of it.
Our project seemed to have gotten a baseline of an A-. I was the only one in our group that got adjusted down to a B.
Well, you obviously didn't get the point of working in a group.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 18, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
It's really hard not to ask, "How would you know?"
It wasn't that hard now, was it? ;)
If I had been wiser back in my college days I would have hung around more pre-professional types; as it happens though, an unusually high proportion of people I know from college became profs, in a variety of fields, in a variety of institutions. Those I keep in touch with , while not thrilled with the politics of academia, eem to be doing interesting research and generally report positive interactions with students. Anecdotal, but suggestive.
Quote from: DGuller on September 18, 2015, 10:47:17 AM
Well, I think economics is special, and not merely a "social science" It by its nature is a very quantitative field, and the fact that's it's not a hard science yet is more due to the fact that it's still in the dark ages rather than because it is an inherently social science field.
.
Econ is very much a social science. It will never be a hard science and if there is one glaring flaw in the discipline on the macro side at least, it is too much reliance of formal mathematical modeling.
Quotethat's the only example, then I'm not convinced.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with others to comment intelligently, although my impression is that there is some pretty rigorous work done in psych. Kahneman and Tversky were both psych profs.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2015, 12:07:57 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 18, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
It's really hard not to ask, "How would you know?"
It wasn't that hard now, was it? ;)
If I had been wiser back in my college days I would have hung around more pre-professional types; as it happens though, an unusually high proportion of people I know from college became profs, in a variety of fields, in a variety of institutions. Those I keep in touch with , while not thrilled with the politics of academia, eem to be doing interesting research and generally report positive interactions with students. Anecdotal, but suggestive.
There was a time when you weren't wise? :blink:
:P
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2015, 12:07:57 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 18, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
It's really hard not to ask, "How would you know?"
It wasn't that hard now, was it? ;)
If I had been wiser back in my college days I would have hung around more pre-professional types; as it happens though, an unusually high proportion of people I know from college became profs, in a variety of fields, in a variety of institutions. Those I keep in touch with , while not thrilled with the politics of academia, eem to be doing interesting research and generally report positive interactions with students. Anecdotal, but suggestive.
Not too terribly suggestive, given the following factors:
1)Professors have a financial interest in professing.
2)People in general that aren't me apparently attempt to spin things as rosy, even when they aren't. Likewise, people are often sufficiently biased that they prefentially process positive information.
3)Students who interact routinely with professors tend to be more likely to report positive feelings about it, since if their reactions were negative, those interactions would probably cease.
4)Students still currently enrolled are a pretty suspect group from which to draw any data, even anecdata, about the attitude of college graduates.
5)Even college graduates who wind up underemployed can suffer a bit from a mild kind of false consciousness where they attribute their failures--and not without supporting evidence--to agencies outside of themselves and the academy (which they enjoyed), particularly the economy and a business culture that doesn't value their prospective contributions. This probably feels better than understanding that they made a personal mistake, and were encouraged in this by people they respect and trust.)
Anyway, I'd bet the closest you get to slumming it is that one time you met a lawyer who went to Duke. :P
As a matter of fact, I had a friend who was a law prof in South Carolina a few years back . . .
It's convenient to take the position that everything other then yourself suffers from irremediable cognitive biases. But not very convincing.
Meh, I have biases.
(Anyway, law profs are almost uniformly derived from high-elite backgrounds. This was less true in the past, so your pal may not fit that bill exactly, but these days it's really ridiculous how few schools produce almost all law academics, boiling down to mainly HYS with maybe a few token Columbia and Chicago grads thrown in.)
He was at USC, right? :unsure:
Hey Ide, check this out. I just got this a minute ago on the listserv as I sit here waiting for the trimester to start:
QuoteHelp make it easier to find film and video in libraries! Contribute to an experiment to explore extracting structured data from free text in MARC!
OLAC (http://www.olacinc.org/) is working on project to make the process of finding film and video in library catalogs better. We plan to take data from MARC records and map it to structured data that can
* drive more effective discovery interfaces
* is easier to maintain
* is in a form that can be used for sharing as linked data.
We are working on automating the interpretation of statements of responsibility in MARC records. Please help us create a pool of correct answers for training a computer program by annotating some film and video credits at http://olac-annotator.org/ It only takes a few minutes to make a contribution. We want to annotate as many credits as possible over the next month.
You can help by
* Annotating movie credits at http://olac-annotator.org/ (identifying the names and roles or functions they performed)
* Translating movie credits into English from languages ranging from Chinese to Spanish to Urdu at
http://olac-annotator.org/
* Identifying and documenting patterns in credits that will be challenging for a computer to interpret by copying examples of problem credits to the spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16dhQTw7Us2r7nSyrfAKgf725vvYifq4NtYv8sApyOvk/edit?usp=sharing (http://tinyurl.com/p2o3m8l)
Go to http://olac-annotator.org/ to get started.
It's got tech, movies, higher education, and rote repetition all rolled into to one. :)
EDIT: And thanks for the shout-out. :hug:
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2015, 10:16:42 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 17, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
They aren't. Man up millinials.
I find the whole concept bizarre. I wouldn't even know about that shit if wasn't fore Spellus. You know what wasn't microagression? When some asshole came at me with a fucking bat calling me a kike. I'm not even a Jew!
A website you might enjoy:
http://everythingsaproblem.tumblr.com
It's like looking into the abyss.