Yes, yes, but can he wrestle a bear?
QuoteTurkey president Erdogan: Women are not equal to men
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said women cannot be treated as equal to men, and has accused feminists of rejecting motherhood.
"You cannot put women and men on an equal footing," he told a meeting in Istanbul. "It is against nature."
He also said feminists did not grasp the importance of motherhood in Islam.
His comments often seek to appeal to his pious core supporters, says the BBC's Mark Lowen in Istanbul, but they anger more liberal voters.
Turks who have more secular views argue that the government's social policies are taking the country in a dangerous direction, our correspondent says.
Mr Erdogan has previously urged women to have three children, and has lashed out against abortion and birth by Caesarean section.
'Delicate nature'
His latest remarks were delivered at a women's conference in Istanbul.
"In the workplace, you cannot treat a man and a pregnant woman in the same way," Mr Erdogan said, according to the Anatolia news agency.
Women cannot do all the work done by men, he added, because it was against their "delicate nature".
"Our religion regards motherhood very highly," he said. "Feminists don't understand that, they reject motherhood."
He said women needed equal respect rather than equality.
Mr Erdogan also told the Istanbul meeting that justice was the solution to most of the world's issues - including racism, anti-Semitism, and "women's problems".
The Turkish leader often courts controversy with his statements.
Earlier this month, he claimed that Muslims had discovered the Americas more than 300 years before Christopher Colombus.
In his 11 years as prime minister, Mr Erdogan became a crucial player in regional politics.
However, his reputation has suffered recently over the crisis in Syria, and accusations of authoritarianism.
He's lashed out against birth by Caesarean section? :huh:
Anyhow was Erdogan always this kooky, and the Western media is only now starting to report this; or is this a new, vibrant direction for the Turkish leader?
If it's about Turkey but has nothing to do with Turkish Star Wars or being Ottoman Empire, I'm not interested.
Quote from: Savonarola on November 24, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
Anyhow was Erdogan always this kooky, and the Western media is only now starting to report this; or is this a new, vibrant direction for the Turkish leader?
couldn't say if it was either a or b, but the reporting of the loonyness has gone up.
the fact that Turks keep re-electing that loonybin is a nice vindication of those that said that Turkey should remain outside the EU. We've got enough loonybins as it is without needing an islamist trojan horse of that size and crazyness
Well there are lots of crazy secessionist nationalists In Europe, I think an anti-secessionist might balance things out.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/24/turkeys-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-women-not-equal-men
Grauniad has more direct quotes from his rambling:
QuoteThe Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has been accused of blatant sexism after declaring that women are not equal to men and claiming feminists in Turkey reject the idea of motherhood.
The devoutly Muslim president said biological differences meant women and men could not serve the same functions, adding that manual work was unsuitable for the "delicate nature" of women.
His comments ignited a firestorm of controversy on Twitter and one well-known female TV news anchor even took the unusual step of condemning the remarks during a bulletin.
"Our religion [Islam] has defined a position for women: motherhood," Erdoğan said at a summit in Istanbul on justice for women, speaking to an audience including his own daughter Sumeyye.
"Some people can understand this, while others can't. You cannot explain this to feminists because they don't accept the concept of motherhood."
He recalled: "I would kiss my mother's feet because they smelled of paradise. She would glance coyly and cry sometimes. :unsure:
"Motherhood is something else," he said, claiming that it should be a woman's priority because Islam exalts women as mothers.
He went on to say that women and men could not be treated equally "because it goes against the laws of nature".
"Their characters, habits and physiques are different ... You cannot place a mother breastfeeding her baby on an equal footing with men.
"You cannot make women work in the same jobs as men do, as in communist regimes. You cannot give them a shovel and tell them to do their work. This is against their delicate nature."
Erdoğan was apparently referring to the practice during and after the second world war for women in communist states such as the USSR to do heavy manual work in factories or in roles such as tram drivers.
He complained that in previous decades in Turkey women in Anatolian villages had done the back-breaking work while their menfolk idled away the time.
"Wasn't it the case in Anatolia? Our poor mothers suffered immensely and got hunchbacks while the men were playing cards and rolling dice at teahouses," he said.
"What women need is to be able to be equivalent, rather than equal. Because equality turns the victim into an oppressor and vice versa."
Erdoğan, 60, has been married since 1978 to his wife Emine, with whom he has two sons and two daughters.
Aylin Nazliaka, an MP from the main opposition Republican People's party said Erdoğan "ostracised" women by portraying them as delicate, weak and powerless and limiting their role to motherhood.
"Erdoğan has publicly committed a hate crime ... But I will continue to fight this man who sees no difference between terrorists and feminists," she said in a written statement.
Sule Zeybek, an anchorwoman at the Turkish broadcaster Kanal D, hit back at Erdoğan's comments live on television during a news bulletin.
"I am a feminist and thank God I'm a mum. I wouldn't kiss my mother's feet but I have great respect for her," she said.
The Islamic-rooted government of Erdoğan has long been accused by critics of seeking to erode the country's secular principles and limiting the civil liberties of women.
Erdoğan has drawn the ire of feminist groups for declaring that every woman in Turkey should have three children and with proposals to limit abortion rights, the morning-after pill and caesarean sections.
Seen by critics as increasingly authoritarian, he has repeatedly lashed out personally at female journalists who displeased him.
But the government's attitude towards women came under even greater scrutiny after the deputy prime minister, Bülent Arinç, caused a furore in August by suggesting women should not laugh loudly in public.
Activists also say that government officials' remarks about women and how they should be treated leave them exposed to violence. According to non-governmental organisations, more than 200 women in Turkey died as a result of domestic violence in the first six months of 2014.
Did we have a thread about his new presidential palace? It was built into a preserved park/forest. The courts declared the construction illegal. Erdogan replied, "Just try and stop me." The thing has reportedly over 1,000 rooms.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1MdhTmIIAAm0CE.jpg)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.euronews.com%2Farticles%2F286760%2F580x360_04-erdogan-presidential-palace-ankara1.jpg&hash=7ec9c3a95254b8c54f129101fb115a513e840863)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F78770000%2Fjpg%2F_78770706_greetings.jpg&hash=c261f65f25b57be7a0f8d0aef2529ea434fc94c9)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle9841228.ece%2Fbinary%2Foriginal%2Fpresidential-palace-Turkey-3.jpg&hash=e8d86252fc65814f49f6e33f7ca2efb5c5243562)
All these centuries later and ego-maniacs are still trying to copy Versailles.
All those reports from Turkey and about Erdogan's behavior lead me to the conclusion that he's not very happy with the size and/or performance record of his genitalia.
Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:50:20 AM
Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.
Has he declared that theocracy you called? I don't see that actually occurring.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:59:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:50:20 AM
Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.
Has he declared that theocracy you called? I don't see that actually occurring.
Do you read anything about modern Turkey outside of this forum?
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:24:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:59:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:50:20 AM
Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.
Has he declared that theocracy you called? I don't see that actually occurring.
Do you read anything about modern Turkey outside of this forum?
I ask you again, has he declared a theocracy? Yes or No?
Did Marty actually say he would? That's a bold prediction considering even Iran has elections.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 25, 2014, 05:22:00 AM
Did Marty actually say he would? That's a bold prediction considering even Iran has elections.
Yeah. I don't argue with Raz because it is so fucking pointless.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 03:19:55 AM
I ask you again, has he declared a theocracy? Yes or No?
You have to excuse Raz. Anything that offends his good buddy Erdogan sends him rushing to the rescue.
So it was not a muslim woman who discovered America, but a muslim man. Makes sense. :)
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:50:20 AM
Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.
By 'everyone', you mean Sheilbh and Raz, right?
To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?
Quote from: celedhring on November 25, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?
He's trying to be a mini-Putin.
Turkey continues its sad move into Authoritarianism. I'm surprised that enough Turks are going along with this to allow the slide away from the government and institutions they had so much pride in, especially given how much they still revere Ataturk and the changes he made. Erdogan has made a lot of moves to undercut that, defanging the military leadership so they couldn't interfere, going after the free media, and more.
Quote from: celedhring on November 25, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?
Well, before Erdogan, Turkey has already been a traditional values authoritarianism and he added religious elements to that, so I would say it is a move towards theocracy.
I read an interesting article in the last week's the Economist, how imams have replaced the army as key "censors" of culture.
Here is the article:
Quote
Turkey and Islam
Ban it if you can
A popular new television show falls foul of the imams
Nov 15th 2014 | ISTANBUL | From the print edition
The imam's soap opera
CETIN ALTAN, a celebrated Turkish writer, once told a friend that Turkish films "cannot dare portray an imam as a crook or a general as a faggot". For decades directors who plied their trade under the army's boot refrained from casting the brasshats in an unflattering light. But contrary to Mr Altan's claim, imams were fair game. The corpulent and crafty imam was a staple of films churned out by Turkey's version of Hollywood, called Yesilcam (Green Pine).
When the mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) party catapulted to power 12 years ago, pious Muslims saw their dignity restored. So it came as a shock when ATV, a pro-AK channel, launched a mini-series last month in which the main protagonist is a thief parading as a cleric. Nicknamed "the lizard" for his slippery ways, the rogue assumes the guise of an imam to dodge justice. The show instantly drew millions of viewers—and the ire of Turkey's 80,000-odd official imams. The state-run religious-affairs directorate, Diyanet, which writes their sermons, demanded that it be taken off the air. "The imam character is an insult to our faith," it huffed. The directorate has banned filming of the series in Turkish mosques.
Pro-AK scribes have poured scorn on Diyanet, claiming that it has rushed to judgment without actually watching "Kertenkele". They said the directorate was taking its cue from Fethullah Gulen, a moderate Islamic cleric based in Pennsylvania, who is accused of masterminding the corruption probe against Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his inner circle. That scandal, which erupted last December, was promptly quashed. Thousands of alleged Gulenists in the police have been either purged or arrested on thinly supported charges of seeking to overthrow AK.
Pro-Gulen titles were among the first to attack "Kertenkele." Some suggest this had less to do with religious sensibilities than with fears that the series would snatch viewers from the Gulenists' flagship channel, Samanyolu. The furore has prompted the programme's director, Mesut Ucakan, to give away the ending, when the phoney imam will become an honest man. This revelation has led to suggestions that Mr Erdogan, who was trained as an imam, is travelling in the opposite direction. The graft allegations against him, detailed in a 252-page police report, include claims that he coerced the heads of several big construction firms to raise $450m to rescue Turkuvaz, an ailing but AK-friendly media conglomerate—whose assets include ATV.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 03:19:55 AM
I ask you again, has he declared a theocracy? Yes or No?
You have to excuse Raz. Anything that offends his good buddy Erdogan sends him rushing to the rescue.
No the criticism lots of people made was based on him being an Islamist and the threat of Islam to democracy. I always said Erdogan had an authoritarian streak (for example using the tax office to intimidate newspapers) and I've been saying he's going Putinish for aages - and I've always said that when a Parliamentary democracy goes Presidential then it's normally over.
But none of that's to do with him being an Islamist, or with Islam. It's to do with corruption, the Putin model and his own authoritarianism.
QuoteI read an interesting article in the last week's the Economist, how imams have replaced the army as key "censors" of culture.
Yes. But it's at least part of it's a power struggle between AKP and the Gulenist religious movement who, initially were big supporters of Erdogan, and are now accused of all sorts treacheries not least prompting an anti-corruption investigation into Erdogan's family. AKP, in that article, came down on the side of the TV program opposing the Gulenists.
I think it's got less to do with Islam than an authoritarian state dealing with independent power bases which the Gulen movement certainly is. I think a more likely direction than Turkey becoming more theocratic is Erdogan using the state's power over religion to get Turkish Islam playing the same sort of role as Russian Orthodoxy is for Putin.
This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 05:23:33 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 25, 2014, 05:22:00 AM
Did Marty actually say he would? That's a bold prediction considering even Iran has elections.
Yeah. I don't argue with Raz because it is so fucking pointless.
I'll take that as a "no". You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy. As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:20:01 AM
I'll take that as a "no". You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy. As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.
Things went south enough that it is sort of hard to see how you are vindicated here Raz. Just that Marty and company were not 100% right.
If the military had performed coup #278 it would just be business as usual in Turkey, not whatever bizarre place we seem to be going.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:21:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:20:01 AM
I'll take that as a "no". You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy. As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.
Things went south enough that it is sort of hard to see how you are vindicated here Raz. Just that Marty and company were not 100% right.
If the military had performed coup #278 it would just be business as usual in Turkey, not whatever bizarre place we seem to be going.
They haven't started fighting in Cyrpus and the streets aren't filled with dead, so I would say there is a lot of south remaining to go.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:07:49 AM
This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.
He's not, no more than Putin is. If he starts building gold statues of himself to rotate with the sun, then maybe. But he's just another example of the Putin model - just like Orban and, I fear possibly one day, Modi too.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:27:03 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:07:49 AM
This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.
He's not, no more than Putin is. If he starts building gold statues of himself to rotate with the sun, then maybe. But he's just another example of the Putin model - just like Orban and, I fear possibly one day, Modi too.
Building a giant Versailles palace against the wishes of the Court and starting to say how America was discovered by Muslims seems rather gold statues in sun-ish to me.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:25:16 AM
They haven't started fighting in Cyrpus and the streets aren't filled with dead, so I would say there is a lot of south remaining to go.
Um...the Kurds? But yeah things can certainly get worse.
Yeah, it seems to me Erdogan's Turkey is another example of the illiberal democracies that have been rising as of late. Right wing, authoritarian, and maintaining the facade of liberal democracy. Erdogan is of course Muslim, so that that drives a lot people crazy.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:32:09 AM
Building a giant Versailles palace against the wishes of the Court and starting to say how America was discovered by Muslims seems rather gold statues in sun-ish to me.
Putin's built several multi-million palaces - though he's discreet about them - and it's something every Middle Eastern autocrat does. It's standard behaviour for a budding dictator. It's also a very easy way to reward lots of your loyal allies and friends, given how much that Palace cost there's a lot of construction contracts up for grabs.
As I say when he renames bread after his mother we can talk about him losing touch with reality. As it is he's just a very 21st century dictator.
QuoteUm...the Kurds? But yeah things can certainly get worse.
Ironically Erdogan's cut a lot of deals with the Kurds. Basically they're the parties who got him over the supermajority needed to change the constitution so he could become President.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:33:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:25:16 AM
They haven't started fighting in Cyrpus and the streets aren't filled with dead, so I would say there is a lot of south remaining to go.
Um...the Kurds? But yeah things can certainly get worse.
:huh: The Kurds? What about them?
Quote from: Savonarola on November 24, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
Yes, yes, but can he wrestle a bear?
Quote
"You cannot put women and men on an equal footing," he told a meeting in Istanbul. "It is against nature."
I was at a press event for some rapidly deployable frontline comms kit today. NATO changed the spec half-way through from "1-2 man lift" to "1-2
person lift" which apparently cased a massive redesign headache.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:33:56 AM
Yeah, it seems to me Erdogan's Turkey is another example of the illiberal democracies that have been rising as of late. Right wing, authoritarian, and maintaining the facade of liberal democracy. Erdogan is of course Muslim, so that that drives a lot people crazy.
So basically, he's the Obama of Turkey?
Quote from: Savonarola on November 24, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
He's lashed out against birth by Caesarean section? :huh:
Anyhow was Erdogan always this kooky, and the Western media is only now starting to report this; or is this a new, vibrant direction for the Turkish leader?
He always was this kooky, only now he's fully surrounded by yes men and doesn't have the good sense keep his mouth shut.
Quote from: Jacob on November 25, 2014, 12:17:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:33:56 AM
Yeah, it seems to me Erdogan's Turkey is another example of the illiberal democracies that have been rising as of late. Right wing, authoritarian, and maintaining the facade of liberal democracy. Erdogan is of course Muslim, so that that drives a lot people crazy.
So basically, he's the Obama of Turkey?
Well he's not the antichrist.
Quote from: Viking on November 25, 2014, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on November 24, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
He's lashed out against birth by Caesarean section? :huh:
Anyhow was Erdogan always this kooky, and the Western media is only now starting to report this; or is this a new, vibrant direction for the Turkish leader?
He always was this kooky, only now he's fully surrounded by yes men and doesn't have the good sense keep his mouth shut.
ENOUGH ABOUT OBAMA
The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
The argument last year was that Erdogan was a theocrat and authoritarian regime would be desirable to prevent him from installing theocracy. As Erdogan's authoritarianism is being used to stymie more religious elements everyone should be happy.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:38:36 AM
:huh: The Kurds? What about them?
Were the Turks not standing by why ISIS attacked Kurdish Civilians? Were they not stopping Kurds from going to reinforce them? Were we not just recently comparing Turkish actions to how Stalin acted towards the Poles? When that comparison is made things are probably not going well.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
Well that and it was one of the big shining lights that Islam is compatible with a modern state. Erdogan was supposed to show it was also compatible with a Democratic one. Granted it was not the only big shining light but it is a pretty big blow.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:01:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:38:36 AM
:huh: The Kurds? What about them?
Were the Turks not standing by why ISIS attacked Kurdish Civilians? Were they not stopping Kurds from going to reinforce them? Were we not just recently comparing Turkish actions to how Stalin acted towards the Poles? When that comparison is made things are probably not going well.
You can make all sorts of comparisons to what you want. The US is not keen on individuals going to Syria. That doesn't make us like Stalin. I'm fairly certain that unlike Stalin Turkey isn't planning to conquer Iraq. Erdogan has been pretty popular with the Kurds in Turkey ( No idea about the ones in Syria, Iraq, and Iran they don't get to vote for him).
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
Saudi Arabia could perhaps be called a theocracy, at least more than Turkey. Their king calls himself custodian of the two holy mosques and Wahabbism has an extremely strong influence on all areas of policy.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:14:26 PM
You can make all sorts of comparisons to what you want. The US is not keen on individuals going to Syria. That doesn't make us like Stalin. I'm fairly certain that unlike Stalin Turkey isn't planning to conquer Iraq. Erdogan has been pretty popular with the Kurds in Turkey ( No idea about the ones in Syria, Iraq, and Iran they don't get to vote for him).
I never made those comparisons. I simply noted people did. But thank you for the permission. I notice you use 'pretty popular with the Kurds' in the past tense there.
Quote from: Zanza on November 25, 2014, 01:23:47 PM
Saudi Arabia could perhaps be called a theocracy, at least more than Turkey.
If that ever is not true you know Turkey is pretty much a lost cause. Saudi Arabia hopefully will always remain the extreme.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:34:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:14:26 PM
You can make all sorts of comparisons to what you want. The US is not keen on individuals going to Syria. That doesn't make us like Stalin. I'm fairly certain that unlike Stalin Turkey isn't planning to conquer Iraq. Erdogan has been pretty popular with the Kurds in Turkey ( No idea about the ones in Syria, Iraq, and Iran they don't get to vote for him).
I never made those comparisons. I simply noted people did. But thank you for the permission. I notice you use 'pretty popular with the Kurds' in the past tense there.
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Indeed, because of his religious positions. At least initially. A lot of people were cautiously optimistic about him at first.
When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Last month they were
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640)
QuoteTurkey Kurds: Kobane protests leave 19 dead
Kurdish protesters and riot police clashed in towns and cities across Turkey
Islamic State
What the Kassig video tells us
Hardest fight
Symbolic Syrian town
Killed for resisting
At least 19 people have been killed in clashes involving Kurdish protesters in Turkey, reports say.
They are unhappy at what they see as Turkish support for Islamic State (IS) militants attacking the border town of Kobane.
Riot police used tear gas and water cannon in a number of towns and cities as the disturbances spread across the country, including Ankara and Istanbul.
Violent protests also erupted on the streets in Germany.
Curfews have now been imposed in several cities in south-eastern Turkey with large Kurdish populations.
Ten of the deaths occurred in the main Turkish-Kurdish city of Diyarbakir, where the rioting saw shops and buses set on fire as well as reported clashes between Kurdish activists and supporters of Islamist groups sympathetic to IS.
Deaths were also reported in the eastern provinces of Mardin, Siirt, Batman and Mus. Many more were injured, and there were casualties in Istanbul and the capital Ankara as trouble spread further west.
While much of the unrest involved Kurdish protesters clashing with police, some of the violence was between Kurdish opponents of IS and radical Islamist Kurds who back the group.
Analysis: Mark Lowen, BBC News, in Istanbul
The sudden wave of unrest has taken Turkey by surprise, with protests spreading to almost 30 cities.
Curfews are now in place, in some provinces for the first time in over two decades, and Turkish troops have been deployed.
Some of the violence has been between Kurdish groups and supporters of Islamic State. But the main protests have been directed against the Turkish government, with Kurds calling for military intervention in the besieged town of Kobane.
Turkey's President Erdogan has reiterated that his country will only get more involved if the coalition targets President Bashar al-Assad as well as IS.
But Washington says the air strikes are focused for now on IS. So Turkey remains unlikely to send troops into Syria - and the worst violence for years with the Kurds here looks set to build.
Turkish Interior Minister Efkan Ala accused the demonstrators of "betraying their own country" and warned them to stop protesting or encounter "unpredictable" consequences.
"Violence will be met with violence. This irrational attitude should immediately be abandoned and [the protesters] should withdraw from the streets," he told reporters in Ankara.
But the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) called for members and supporters to take to the streets to protest against the IS offensive.
Although a ceasefire was declared in March 2013, after decades of armed struggle the PKK is seen as a terrorist group in Turkey.
Meanwhile, Turkish border police reportedly stopped as many as 300 Kurds who had crossed into Turkey from Kobane.
What the Turkish newspapers are saying:
Most papers are highly critical of the protests. Centre-right Hurriyet denounces them as a "threat to peace", warning they might endanger talks between the government and Kurdish rebels.
It quotes President Erdogan as saying Kurdish politicians are trying to use Kobane to "blackmail" Turkey, a theme taken up by mainstream Milliyet. Centre-right Haberturk warns readers of a "trap", and pro-government Yeni Safak portrays the protesters as "enemies of Turkey".
Several papers use fire analogies, with tabloid Posta referring to "days of fire". Opposition Cumhuriyet says "fire surrounds Turkey", and left-wing Taraf worries that "Kobane fire burns us from the inside".
Only left-wing Birgun is supportive of the protests, running a provocative headline comparing the governing AKP party with Islamic State - "IS in Kobane, AKP in Turkey".
Quote from: alfred russel on November 25, 2014, 01:46:27 PM
When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Yeah theoretically the UK is theocratic absolute monarchy.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 01:51:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Last month they were
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640)
QuoteTurkey Kurds: Kobane protests leave 19 dead
Kurdish protesters and riot police clashed in towns and cities across Turkey
Islamic State
What the Kassig video tells us
Hardest fight
Symbolic Syrian town
Killed for resisting
At least 19 people have been killed in clashes involving Kurdish protesters in Turkey, reports say.
They are unhappy at what they see as Turkish support for Islamic State (IS) militants attacking the border town of Kobane.
Riot police used tear gas and water cannon in a number of towns and cities as the disturbances spread across the country, including Ankara and Istanbul.
Violent protests also erupted on the streets in Germany.
Curfews have now been imposed in several cities in south-eastern Turkey with large Kurdish populations.
Ten of the deaths occurred in the main Turkish-Kurdish city of Diyarbakir, where the rioting saw shops and buses set on fire as well as reported clashes between Kurdish activists and supporters of Islamist groups sympathetic to IS.
Deaths were also reported in the eastern provinces of Mardin, Siirt, Batman and Mus. Many more were injured, and there were casualties in Istanbul and the capital Ankara as trouble spread further west.
While much of the unrest involved Kurdish protesters clashing with police, some of the violence was between Kurdish opponents of IS and radical Islamist Kurds who back the group.
line
Analysis: Mark Lowen, BBC News, in Istanbul
The sudden wave of unrest has taken Turkey by surprise, with protests spreading to almost 30 cities.
Curfews are now in place, in some provinces for the first time in over two decades, and Turkish troops have been deployed.
Some of the violence has been between Kurdish groups and supporters of Islamic State. But the main protests have been directed against the Turkish government, with Kurds calling for military intervention in the besieged town of Kobane.
Turkey's President Erdogan has reiterated that his country will only get more involved if the coalition targets President Bashar al-Assad as well as IS.
But Washington says the air strikes are focused for now on IS. So Turkey remains unlikely to send troops into Syria - and the worst violence for years with the Kurds here looks set to build.
Turkish Interior Minister Efkan Ala accused the demonstrators of "betraying their own country" and warned them to stop protesting or encounter "unpredictable" consequences.
"Violence will be met with violence. This irrational attitude should immediately be abandoned and [the protesters] should withdraw from the streets," he told reporters in Ankara.
But the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) called for members and supporters to take to the streets to protest against the IS offensive.
Although a ceasefire was declared in March 2013, after decades of armed struggle the PKK is seen as a terrorist group in Turkey.
Meanwhile, Turkish border police reportedly stopped as many as 300 Kurds who had crossed into Turkey from Kobane.
line
What the Turkish newspapers are saying:
Most papers are highly critical of the protests. Centre-right Hurriyet denounces them as a "threat to peace", warning they might endanger talks between the government and Kurdish rebels.
It quotes President Erdogan as saying Kurdish politicians are trying to use Kobane to "blackmail" Turkey, a theme taken up by mainstream Milliyet. Centre-right Haberturk warns readers of a "trap", and pro-government Yeni Safak portrays the protesters as "enemies of Turkey".
Several papers use fire analogies, with tabloid Posta referring to "days of fire". Opposition Cumhuriyet says "fire surrounds Turkey", and left-wing Taraf worries that "Kobane fire burns us from the inside".
Only left-wing Birgun is supportive of the protests, running a provocative headline comparing the governing AKP party with Islamic State - "IS in Kobane, AKP in Turkey".
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:57:43 PM
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 25, 2014, 01:46:27 PM
When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Almost as bad as those who put their trust in God on the coinage. :D
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:57:43 PM
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.
I was thinking of legal status.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:57:43 PM
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.
I was thinking of legal status.
I don't think any legal status in the EU warrants 19 dead Kurdish protesters in Turkey or a
carte blanche to a loony islamist comparable to Putin in green. There were some protests in the EU as well, and guess what, nobody died. Not all these protesters were PKK militants or supporters besides.
QuoteBeyond Turkey, a number of people were hurt when clashes broke out in the German city of Hamburg after hundreds of Kurdish demonstrators in Hamburg held a rally against IS militants.
Some 400 Kurdish protesters fought with a similar number of radical Muslims, police told German media. Demonstrators, some carrying knives and knuckle-dusters, were eventually separated by police firing water cannon.
Injuries were also reported after violence involving members of the Yazidi religious group, most of whom are Kurds, and ethnic Chechens in the town of Celle in Lower Saxony.
A similar number of pro-IS protestors? Damn.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:38:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Indeed, because of his religious positions. At least initially. A lot of people were cautiously optimistic about him at first.
No, because he's been the best Turkish leader for Kurds that I can think of. Thousands of political prisoners have been released, Kurdish language education has been legalised (though only private schools), the restrictions on Kurdish language media have been liberalised and he's opened formal negotiations with the PKK. The economy in Kurdistan is still worse than the rest of Turkey but it's starting to improve, Kurdish language road signs have been legalised, the state's built a big airport in the area which will connect with Europe, the Middle East and (importantly) other Kurdish cities in the region. AKP negotiators have said autonomy is too far but there could be an amnesty of non-violent prisoners, Kurdish language state education and more work on economic development. It's led to an increase in support for the AKP in Kurdish areas over the last few years, while it's declined in other bits of Turkey which was important in his Presidential run and to open protests and criticism of the PKK which is novel, especially by the mothers of fighters and the deceased.
It's worth noting the CHP and MHP don't do that well there as they want to go back to the old status quo, or worse.
Now as I say that's because he's depended on Kurdish support for his constitutional support and, yes, as IS have grown stronger there's a lot more strain on relations because the Kurds blame him, with some justification, for letting their fellow Kurds die in Iraq and Syria.
QuoteThe authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
Sure and his foreign policy is also pretty troubling.
But I think it's wrong to say this was all predictable based on issues like the headscarf or subordinating the military to civilian rule - which is what got Languish up in arms. The reasons I've always worried about his authoritarianism are far more to do with the corruption, the network of crony capitalists around AKP and the threatening of the independent media with tax investigations (not over irreligious articles, but ones about corrupt practices). I'm also not convinced that a strong anti-Islamist military intervention would ever have been the answer.
QuoteWell that and it was one of the big shining lights that Islam is compatible with a modern state. Erdogan was supposed to show it was also compatible with a Democratic one. Granted it was not the only big shining light but it is a pretty big blow.
Sure. I would say he's won these elections fair and square and they have been reasonably free and open. But this as much as anything exposes the weakness of the opposition in Turkey. The CHP haven't properly won an election since the 70s and they're illiberal secularists who want the perks of the state to go to a different clique. The MHP are illiberal ultra-nationalists. The only other parties are Kurdish who are more liberal, but do also include terrorists in their members - though I've read of liberal, Western-minded Turks voting for the Kurdish parties because they're the only ones who actually are liberal - the CHP leader has tried to shift the party on that, but they've lost two elections on his watch and the old guard are saying they need to go back to their party verities, which have served them so well lately.
Unless the opposition get their act together or the 50% of Turkey that don't like AKP can't work together then I think if not as bad as Russia they'll resemble South Africa until Erdogan's economic policies come crashing down - which I think they will and like the CHP his party'll be done in by economic competence. Ironically if he does push through a change of the election laws so parties only need 5% (or no minimum at all) instead of 10% of the vote to get into Parliament that may the opposition.
Anyway the most positive Islamist-democracy experiment is Tunisia, by a mile.
QuoteWhen discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Sure and the implementation of Turkish laicite gives them greater control over religion than would be normal in any non-theocracy, see Marti's article:
QuoteThe show instantly drew millions of viewers—and the ire of Turkey's 80,000-odd official imams. The state-run religious-affairs directorate, Diyanet, which writes their sermons, demanded that it be taken off the air. "The imam character is an insult to our faith," it huffed. The directorate has banned filming of the series in Turkish mosques.
My worry on the religious front is that we'll see more discrimination against religious minorities, Erdogan's got a very bad record with the Alawis (again not helped by his Syria policy) and as I say I'd worry about him taking on Gulen more to destroy an independent voice within Turkey than for any theocratic purposes.
QuoteA similar number of pro-IS protestors? Damn.
Yeah :blink:
I've seen very big Kurdish protests for intervention against IS - the 'Save Kobani' one was quite moving - but never any pro-IS counter-demonstrations :bleeding:
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 25, 2014, 01:46:27 PM
When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Yeah theoretically the UK is theocratic absolute monarchy.
What theory is this? Got a cite?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
The argument last year was that Erdogan was a theocrat and authoritarian regime would be desirable to prevent him from installing theocracy. As Erdogan's authoritarianism is being used to stymie more religious elements everyone should be happy.
No I don't think it is being used for that purpose at all. The Gulenists may be cult-like but are quite moderate.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 05:00:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism. But there are both real and both problems. Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.
The argument last year was that Erdogan was a theocrat and authoritarian regime would be desirable to prevent him from installing theocracy. As Erdogan's authoritarianism is being used to stymie more religious elements everyone should be happy.
No I don't think it is being used for that purpose at all. The Gulenists may be cult-like but are quite moderate.
Yeah, but he's more religious, that means he's more bad. You can't have religious Muslim cause they'll install theocracy. That was the beef that Marty and Tamas and other had.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:31:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:57:43 PM
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.
I was thinking of legal status.
I don't think any legal status in the EU warrants 19 dead Kurdish protesters in Turkey or a carte blanche to a loony islamist comparable to Putin in green. There were some protests in the EU as well, and guess what, nobody died. Not all these protesters were PKK militants or supporters besides.
QuoteBeyond Turkey, a number of people were hurt when clashes broke out in the German city of Hamburg after hundreds of Kurdish demonstrators in Hamburg held a rally against IS militants.
Some 400 Kurdish protesters fought with a similar number of radical Muslims, police told German media. Demonstrators, some carrying knives and knuckle-dusters, were eventually separated by police firing water cannon.
Injuries were also reported after violence involving members of the Yazidi religious group, most of whom are Kurds, and ethnic Chechens in the town of Celle in Lower Saxony.
So you won't actually say the word will you? The PKK is considered a terrorist organization in both the EU and US. I do love how our balls of light get about the Turkish question. :D
Quote from: grumbler on November 25, 2014, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 25, 2014, 01:46:27 PM
When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.
Yeah theoretically the UK is theocratic absolute monarchy.
What theory is this? Got a cite?
Oh hells no. If I try to cite something before I know it, it will be five pages later and we will be posting long rebuttals broken into paragraphs.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:38:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic. They certainly aren't dying in the street there.
Indeed, because of his religious positions. At least initially. A lot of people were cautiously optimistic about him at first.
These people were fools.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:31:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 25, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:57:43 PM
What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?
Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.
I was thinking of legal status.
I don't think any legal status in the EU warrants 19 dead Kurdish protesters in Turkey or a carte blanche to a loony islamist comparable to Putin in green. There were some protests in the EU as well, and guess what, nobody died. Not all these protesters were PKK militants or supporters besides.
QuoteBeyond Turkey, a number of people were hurt when clashes broke out in the German city of Hamburg after hundreds of Kurdish demonstrators in Hamburg held a rally against IS militants.
Some 400 Kurdish protesters fought with a similar number of radical Muslims, police told German media. Demonstrators, some carrying knives and knuckle-dusters, were eventually separated by police firing water cannon.
Injuries were also reported after violence involving members of the Yazidi religious group, most of whom are Kurds, and ethnic Chechens in the town of Celle in Lower Saxony.
So you won't actually say the word will you? The PKK is considered a terrorist organization in both the EU and US. I do love how our balls of light get about the Turkish question. :D
Because that's not related to the question at hand, and you're using the PKK status to give a white card to your beloved islamicist friend Erdogan. Do I need to remember you how Erdogan has been supporting terrorism (what's the status of Daesh in the EU and US again?) in Syria for instance letting all jihadi wannabees go through Turkey? That even Erdogan agreed to a ceasefire with the PKK? The ceasefire ended when YPG and PKK started fighting Daesh in Syria incidentally.
News that didn't reach your basement it seems...
As for the status of the PKK as a terrorist organisation in the EU and more importantly the real consequences, some search on your part (hint Greece) would probably shock you. Turkish government complained many times this status was a façade. Greece and Cyprus, EU members armed them and supported them.
More about unofficial support to the PKK, not the YPG, and that was when the somewhat secular army still holding the power in Turkey. Now with Erdogan...
QuoteSupport of various European states
Despite Brussels' designation of the group as a terrorist organization, the EU continues to permit the broadcasting of the organization's networks on the Hot Bird 3 satellite owned by the French company Eutelsat. MEDYA TV started transmissions from studios in Belgium via a satellite uplink from France. MEDYA TV's license was revoked by the French authorities. A few weeks later Roj TV began transmissions from Denmark. It has also been argued that the Netherlands and Belgium have supported the PKK by allowing its training camps to function in their respective territories. On 22 November 1998, Hanover's criminal police reported that three children had been trained by the PKK for guerrilla warfare in camps in the Netherlands and Belgium.[111] After the death of Theo van Gogh, with increasing attention on domestic security concerns, the Dutch police raided the 'PKK paramilitary camp' in the Dutch village of Liempde and arrested 29 people in November 2004, but all were soon released.[112] Denmark allows Kurdish satellite television stations (such as ROJ-TV), which Turkey claims has links with the PKK, to operate in Denmark and broadcast into Turkey.[113]
Various PKK leaders, including Hidir Yalcin, Riza Altun, Zubeyir Aydar, and Ali Haydar Kaytan all lived in Europe and moved freely. The free movement was achieved by strong ties with influential persons. Danielle Mitterrand, the wife of the former President of France, had active connections during the 90s with elements of the organization's leadership that forced a downgrade in relationships between the two states.[114] After harboring him for some time, Austria arranged a flight to Iraq for Ali Rıza Altun, a suspected key figure with an Interpol arrest warrant on his name.. Turkish foreign minister Abdullah Gül summoned the Austrian ambassador and condemned Austria's action.[115] On 30 September 1995, while Öcalan was in Syria, Damascus initiated contact with high-ranking German CDU MP Heinrich Lummer and German intelligence officials.
The Chief of the Turkish General Staff during 2007, General Yaşar Büyükanıt, stated that even though the international struggle had been discussed on every platform and even though organizations such as the UN, NATO, and EU made statements of serious commitment, to this day the necessary measures had not been taken.[116] According to Büyükanıt; "this conduct on one side has encouraged the terrorists, on the other side it assisted in widening their activities.[116] " Sedat Laçiner, of the Turkish think tank ISRO, says that US support of the PKK undermines the US War on Terrorism.[117] Seymour Hersh claimed that the U.S. supported PEJAK, the Iranian branch of the PKK.[118] The head of the PKK's militant arm, Murat Karayılan, claimed that Iran attempted to recruit the PKK to attack coalition forces, adding that Kurdish guerrillas had launched a clandestine war in north-western Iran, ambushing Iranian troops.[119]
All Kurds are all PKK supporters now, at least those who oppose the local Islamist Putin and/or Daesh, according to our crazy resident basement troll. Btw, it's YPG (People's protection units in English) the armed wing of a Syrian Kurdish political party) doing the major part of the fight against Daesh in Kobane, not the PKK, which is supporting along with the FSA (terrorists?) and Peshmergas (other terrorists according to you?), but guess what, your beloved islamo fundie Erdogan is doing a fine Stalin '44 Polish uprising impression.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 02:59:03 PM
A similar number of pro-IS protestors? Damn.
Salafist influence in Germany has been all over the news in Germany recently. One leads to the other, I'm afraid.
I thought Kurd Kobane killed himself? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 05:40:57 AM
I thought Kurd Kobane killed himself? :unsure:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fheartsoulinspiration.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F03%2Fdave-grohl.jpg&hash=3e3d676ada1efce2dfcd651179b1377b7523dd07)
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 26, 2014, 05:06:36 AM
Because that's not related to the question at hand, and you're using the PKK status to give a white card to your beloved islamicist friend Erdogan. Do I need to remember you how Erdogan has been supporting terrorism (what's the status of Daesh in the EU and US again?) in Syria for instance letting all jihadi wannabees go through Turkey? That even Erdogan agreed to a ceasefire with the PKK? The ceasefire ended when YPG and PKK started fighting Daesh in Syria incidentally.
News that didn't reach your basement it seems...
As for the status of the PKK as a terrorist organisation in the EU and more importantly the real consequences, some search on your part (hint Greece) would probably shock you. Turkish government complained many times this status was a façade. Greece and Cyprus, EU members armed them and supported them.
More about unofficial support to the PKK, not the YPG, and that was when the somewhat secular army still holding the power in Turkey. Now with Erdogan...
QuoteSupport of various European states
Despite Brussels' designation of the group as a terrorist organization, the EU continues to permit the broadcasting of the organization's networks on the Hot Bird 3 satellite owned by the French company Eutelsat. MEDYA TV started transmissions from studios in Belgium via a satellite uplink from France. MEDYA TV's license was revoked by the French authorities. A few weeks later Roj TV began transmissions from Denmark. It has also been argued that the Netherlands and Belgium have supported the PKK by allowing its training camps to function in their respective territories. On 22 November 1998, Hanover's criminal police reported that three children had been trained by the PKK for guerrilla warfare in camps in the Netherlands and Belgium.[111] After the death of Theo van Gogh, with increasing attention on domestic security concerns, the Dutch police raided the 'PKK paramilitary camp' in the Dutch village of Liempde and arrested 29 people in November 2004, but all were soon released.[112] Denmark allows Kurdish satellite television stations (such as ROJ-TV), which Turkey claims has links with the PKK, to operate in Denmark and broadcast into Turkey.[113]
Various PKK leaders, including Hidir Yalcin, Riza Altun, Zubeyir Aydar, and Ali Haydar Kaytan all lived in Europe and moved freely. The free movement was achieved by strong ties with influential persons. Danielle Mitterrand, the wife of the former President of France, had active connections during the 90s with elements of the organization's leadership that forced a downgrade in relationships between the two states.[114] After harboring him for some time, Austria arranged a flight to Iraq for Ali Rıza Altun, a suspected key figure with an Interpol arrest warrant on his name.. Turkish foreign minister Abdullah Gül summoned the Austrian ambassador and condemned Austria's action.[115] On 30 September 1995, while Öcalan was in Syria, Damascus initiated contact with high-ranking German CDU MP Heinrich Lummer and German intelligence officials.
The Chief of the Turkish General Staff during 2007, General Yaşar Büyükanıt, stated that even though the international struggle had been discussed on every platform and even though organizations such as the UN, NATO, and EU made statements of serious commitment, to this day the necessary measures had not been taken.[116] According to Büyükanıt; "this conduct on one side has encouraged the terrorists, on the other side it assisted in widening their activities.[116] " Sedat Laçiner, of the Turkish think tank ISRO, says that US support of the PKK undermines the US War on Terrorism.[117] Seymour Hersh claimed that the U.S. supported PEJAK, the Iranian branch of the PKK.[118] The head of the PKK's militant arm, Murat Karayılan, claimed that Iran attempted to recruit the PKK to attack coalition forces, adding that Kurdish guerrillas had launched a clandestine war in north-western Iran, ambushing Iranian troops.[119]
All Kurds are all PKK supporters now, at least those who oppose the local Islamist Putin and/or Daesh, according to our crazy resident basement troll. Btw, it's YPG (People's protection units in English) the armed wing of a Syrian Kurdish political party) doing the major part of the fight against Daesh in Kobane, not the PKK, which is supporting along with the FSA (terrorists?) and Peshmergas (other terrorists according to you?), but guess what, your beloved islamo fundie Erdogan is doing a fine Stalin '44 Polish uprising impression.
Seems I hit a sore spot. It is of course relevant since members of such groups would likely be arrested or at least detained in the US and Europe or at least should be. You use the word Islamist quite a bit. Does Erdogan describe himself as one? As far as I know he does not. He is a religious conservative. You guys in Europe obsess over him. You remind me of how are conservatives would rant on and on about Venezuela. How Hugo Chavez was our number one threat. I'm guessing the word "Muslim" just lights up that hate center in the European brain just like how the word "socialist" drives conservatives in this country nuts.
I had never heard the word "Daesh" before. I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language. In the US we call them ISIS.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PM
I had never heard the word "Daesh" before. I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language. In the US we call them ISIS.
Erdogan does describe himself as an Islamist.
Daesh is the Arabic acronym and a commonly used name for ISIS in the Middle East, not least because in Arabic it means something like 'cutthroats' so it's a derogatory term that ISIS hate - which is why the French use it. I thought the US had mostly moved on to ISIL now, or IS?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PM
I had never heard the word "Daesh" before. I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language. In the US we call them ISIS.
Erdogan does describe himself as an Islamist.
Daesh is the Arabic acronym and a commonly used name for ISIS in the Middle East, not least because in Arabic it means something like 'cutthroats' so it's a derogatory term that ISIS hate - which is why the French use it. I thought the US had mostly moved on to ISIL now, or IS?
It was my understanding that he rejected this label.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PM
Seems I hit a sore spot.
Well yeah if you were similarly wanking off to Vladimir Putin people would also be sore about it. But yes it is because we hate Muslims that we do not like Erdogan :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 03:17:05 PM
Anyway the most positive Islamist-democracy experiment is Tunisia, by a mile.
Yes I was thinking of them specifically. There are so many Muslim states I figured there were a couple others I was missing as well.
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2014, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 03:17:05 PM
Anyway the most positive Islamist-democracy experiment is Tunisia, by a mile.
Yes I was thinking of them specifically. There are so many Muslim states I figured there were a couple others I was missing as well.
We can at least lay the Bernard Lewis 'one man, one vote, once' thing to rest. So far every time Islamists have been elected there have been relatively free and fair elections at the end of their term. The normal threat, shockingly, seems to come from military coups.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PMI had never heard the word "Daesh" before. I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language. In the US we call them ISIS.
Apparently Daesh/ISIS finds Daesh to be a derogatory term, thus the French adopted it. I would have expected you to approve of that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2014, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 03:17:05 PM
Anyway the most positive Islamist-democracy experiment is Tunisia, by a mile.
Yes I was thinking of them specifically. There are so many Muslim states I figured there were a couple others I was missing as well.
We can at least lay the Bernard Lewis 'one man, one vote, once' thing to rest. So far every time Islamists have been elected there have been relatively free and fair elections at the end of their term. The normal threat, shockingly, seems to come from military coups.
I'm not so sure about that - how many actual 'Islamicist' elections have there been?
There was Egypt (ended in a coup), there is Turkey (with Erdogan seemingly setting himself up for Putin-hood-type dictatorship), and there was the Palestinian elections resulting in Hamas (no further elections appear likely), and there is Tunisia.
Quote from: Jacob on November 26, 2014, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PMI had never heard the word "Daesh" before. I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language. In the US we call them ISIS.
Apparently Daesh/ISIS finds Daesh to be a derogatory term, thus the French adopted it. I would have expected you to approve of that.
You confuse me with someone else. I like the term ISIS. It makes it sound like I live in a world of James Bond Villains.
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 03:03:28 PM
Seems I hit a sore spot.
Well yeah if you were similarly wanking off to Vladimir Putin people would also be sore about it. But yes it is because we hate Muslims that we do not like Erdogan :lol:
For our European friends, yeah I think that's a big factor. I came to this conclusion when people were ranting and raving about Erdogan and then were silent with the Eyptian coup and mass murder that followed. Honestly, it was sickening.
Quote from: Malthus on November 26, 2014, 04:52:59 PM
I'm not so sure about that - how many actual 'Islamicist' elections have there been?
There was Egypt (ended in a coup), there is Turkey (with Erdogan seemingly setting himself up for Putin-hood-type dictatorship), and there was the Palestinian elections resulting in Hamas (no further elections appear likely), and there is Tunisia.
Algeria ended in a military coup, Egypt ended in a military coup, Palestine ended in an attempted coup, civil war and Hamas takeover, Turkey 3-4 free elections (and yes he's Putinish but the Turkish opposition are disastrously poor), Morocco free-ish elections as democracy is very limited by the crown and Tunisia which has had free Parliamentary, Presidential, Constitutional Convention elections and seen Islamists win, lose and form coalitions. Arguably Iraq too.
Every time Islamists have been elected to office and allowed to take office and serve without a Fatah or military there's been a relatively free and fair election at the end of their term. We've only got the semi-example of Iraq and the real example of Tunisia of what happens when they lose an election but that's a different argument.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 05:03:20 PM
For our European friends, yeah I think that's a big factor. I came to this conclusion when people were ranting and raving about Erdogan and then were silent with the Eyptian coup and mass murder that followed. Honestly, it was sickening.
I agree. I'm an old fashioned neo-con :lol:
Another sickening sight is Tony Blair who I believed was genuinely in favour of democratisation in the Middle East but supported and now helps the Egyptian military regime, consults for the Saudis and recently said the West needs to make a deal with Russia so they can both deal with the common threat of Islamism. It's very disappointing. At least McCain and Lindsay Graham for all their faults have been consistent.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 26, 2014, 04:52:59 PM
I'm not so sure about that - how many actual 'Islamicist' elections have there been?
There was Egypt (ended in a coup), there is Turkey (with Erdogan seemingly setting himself up for Putin-hood-type dictatorship), and there was the Palestinian elections resulting in Hamas (no further elections appear likely), and there is Tunisia.
Algeria ended in a military coup, Egypt ended in a military coup, Palestine ended in an attempted coup, civil war and Hamas takeover, Turkey 3-4 free elections (and yes he's Putinish but the Turkish opposition are disastrously poor), Morocco free-ish elections as democracy is very limited by the crown and Tunisia which has had free Parliamentary, Presidential, Constitutional Convention elections and seen Islamists win, lose and form coalitions. Arguably Iraq too.
Every time Islamists have been elected to office and allowed to take office and serve without a Fatah or military there's been a relatively free and fair election at the end of their term. We've only got the semi-example of Iraq and the real example of Tunisia of what happens when they lose an election but that's a different argument.
Essentially, it has happened ... once. In Tunisia.
I'm not sure that's a large enough sample to state that we can lay to rest the issue of Islamicists being more likely to end democracy. The fact that Islamicist regimes have frequently lead to coups and civil wars may, or may not, be indicative of such problems - certainly Hamas (for example) has shown no desire to restart elections in the territory they control absolutely.
Quote from: Malthus on November 26, 2014, 05:11:07 PM
Essentially, it has happened ... once. In Tunisia.
Several times in Tunisia, but by that measure Ireland and Sweden have had about 3 elections in their entire democratic history and post-Apartheid South Africa's still waiting. I agree transfer of power is absolutely key if they lose elections.
But in Islamist regimes it seems to me the bigger threat than the Islamists is the military or the established governing party. I don't think that's the fault of the Islamists, any more than any other government destroyed by coups. Sad truth is it's a bogey word for the West like Communist once was so all sorts of governments are allowed to go to the wall (as are their supporters) while our support of human rights is suddenly rather muted - see Egypt :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 05:06:09 PM
Another sickening sight is Tony Blair who I believed was genuinely in favour of democratisation in the Middle East but supported and now helps the Egyptian military regime, consults for the Saudis and recently said the West needs to make a deal with Russia so they can both deal with the common threat of Islamism. It's very disappointing. At least McCain and Lindsay Graham for all their faults have been consistent.
They're still in government service, and don't need the paycheck.
And I don't want to hear any shit about Tony; he was the only one of you mutts over there that was willing to do anything about the Balkans, because hey: genocide in Europe, that's never been fucking done.
You people would sail halfway across the planet to fight for islands that aren't even yours, but you were more than happy to watch rape camps and atrocities all through the '90s. And not the good rape camps either, but rape-rape camps. The bad kind.
Sorry, he's destroyed his reputation as far as I'm concerned. The most embarrassing ex-PM we have :(
No, John Major is still alive.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:33:09 PM
No, John Major is still alive.
He's like 90s-Carter, just enhancing his reputation all the time. Gives the odd statesmanlike speech or interview to help out his party's PM, aside from that he gets on with writing histories of Cricket and Music Hall and chairing his local cricket club.
Rape-rape camps, Shiv. Rape-rape.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:33:09 PM
No, John Major is still alive.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2F45178-I-disagree-cat-Nupa.jpeg&hash=e4bbe4e7c6424b4122a9f2b41e4465d47fd38ab2)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:37:06 PM
Rape-rape camps, Shiv. Rape-rape.
I know. He was a great PM. He's been a disgrace since he's left office. There's no regime too autocratic for him to consult for (eg. PR advice to the Kazakhstan government on how to talk about their 'human rights record') or too offensive for him to shill for (attending a Saudi funded conference on inter-faith dialogue, or helping out the Egyptian military) as long as there's enough money in it.
He makes Gerhard Schroeder look like a monk.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
Oh hells no. If I try to cite something before I know it, it will be five pages later and we will be posting long rebuttals broken into paragraphs.
:lol: Didn't think so.
Quote from: Malthus on November 26, 2014, 05:11:07 PMThe fact that Islamicist regimes have frequently lead to coups and civil wars may, or may not, be indicative of such problems - certainly Hamas (for example) has shown no desire to restart elections in the territory they control absolutely.
i don't think hamas is a good example. an islamist regime in a stable country is going to look different than one in an unstable country.
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 25, 2014, 12:29:21 PM
He always was this kooky, only now he's fully surrounded by yes men and doesn't have the good sense keep his mouth shut.
ENOUGH ABOUT OBAMA
^_^
Quote from: grumbler on November 26, 2014, 06:39:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
Oh hells no. If I try to cite something before I know it, it will be five pages later and we will be posting long rebuttals broken into paragraphs.
:lol: Didn't think so.
Didn't think I would want to waste my time in a discussion with somebody unbelievably hostile and unpleasant to discuss things with? Correct.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 05:36:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:33:09 PM
No, John Major is still alive.
He's like 90s-Carter, just enhancing his reputation all the time. Gives the odd statesmanlike speech or interview to help out his party's PM, aside from that he gets on with writing histories of Cricket and Music Hall and chairing his local cricket club.
Doesn't Major have several times more post-career allegations of adultery than Jimmy? :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 26, 2014, 10:25:36 PM
Doesn't Major have several times more post-career allegations of adultery than Jimmy? :P
Not quite. He got outed as having had an affair with Edwina Currie (a female MP and Minister in his government) while he was a whip in Thatcher's government. When he got promoted to Chief Secretary of the Treasury the affair ended, apparently it became impractical. So the affair before he was PM but only revealed afterwards. That's the only affair he's been alleged to have - and it was a shock when Currie admitted it in her memoir because he was always such a grey boring figure.
She said he was the love of her life. Admittedly a weak later she accused him of racism, sexism and being one of our worst Prime Ministers ever. But such is Edwina Currie.
Liverpool produced both Edwina Currie and Nadine Dorries..........must be something in the water :hmm: