Erdogan: Women are not equal to men

[Razgovory]

You can make all sorts of comparisons to what you want.  The US is not keen on individuals going to Syria.  That doesn't make us like Stalin.  I'm fairly certain that unlike Stalin Turkey isn't planning to conquer Iraq. Erdogan has been pretty popular with the Kurds in Turkey ( No idea about the ones in Syria, Iraq, and Iran they don't get to vote for him).

I never made those comparisons.  I simply noted people did.  But thank you for the permission.  I notice you use 'pretty popular with the Kurds' in the past tense there.

I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic.  They certainly aren't dying in the street there.

[Valmy]

I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic.  They certainly aren't dying in the street there.

Indeed, because of his religious positions.  At least initially.  A lot of people were cautiously optimistic about him at first.

[alfred russel]

When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic.  They certainly aren't dying in the street there.

Last month they were

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640

Turkey Kurds: Kobane protests leave 19 dead

Kurdish protesters and riot police clashed in towns and cities across Turkey

Islamic State

What the Kassig video tells us
Hardest fight
Symbolic Syrian town
Killed for resisting
At least 19 people have been killed in clashes involving Kurdish protesters in Turkey, reports say.

They are unhappy at what they see as Turkish support for Islamic State (IS) militants attacking the border town of Kobane.

Riot police used tear gas and water cannon in a number of towns and cities as the disturbances spread across the country, including Ankara and Istanbul.

Violent protests also erupted on the streets in Germany.

Curfews have now been imposed in several cities in south-eastern Turkey with large Kurdish populations.

Ten of the deaths occurred in the main Turkish-Kurdish city of Diyarbakir, where the rioting saw shops and buses set on fire as well as reported clashes between Kurdish activists and supporters of Islamist groups sympathetic to IS.

Deaths were also reported in the eastern provinces of Mardin, Siirt, Batman and Mus. Many more were injured, and there were casualties in Istanbul and the capital Ankara as trouble spread further west.

While much of the unrest involved Kurdish protesters clashing with police, some of the violence was between Kurdish opponents of IS and radical Islamist Kurds who back the group.

Analysis: Mark Lowen, BBC News, in Istanbul

The sudden wave of unrest has taken Turkey by surprise, with protests spreading to almost 30 cities.

Curfews are now in place, in some provinces for the first time in over two decades, and Turkish troops have been deployed.

Some of the violence has been between Kurdish groups and supporters of Islamic State. But the main protests have been directed against the Turkish government, with Kurds calling for military intervention in the besieged town of Kobane.

Turkey's President Erdogan has reiterated that his country will only get more involved if the coalition targets President Bashar al-Assad as well as IS.

But Washington says the air strikes are focused for now on IS. So Turkey remains unlikely to send troops into Syria - and the worst violence for years with the Kurds here looks set to build.

Turkish Interior Minister Efkan Ala accused the demonstrators of "betraying their own country" and warned them to stop protesting or encounter "unpredictable" consequences.

"Violence will be met with violence. This irrational attitude should immediately be abandoned and [the protesters] should withdraw from the streets," he told reporters in Ankara.

But the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) called for members and supporters to take to the streets to protest against the IS offensive.

Although a ceasefire was declared in March 2013, after decades of armed struggle the PKK is seen as a terrorist group in Turkey.

Meanwhile, Turkish border police reportedly stopped as many as 300 Kurds who had crossed into Turkey from Kobane.

What the Turkish newspapers are saying:

Most papers are highly critical of the protests. Centre-right Hurriyet denounces them as a "threat to peace", warning they might endanger talks between the government and Kurdish rebels.

It quotes President Erdogan as saying Kurdish politicians are trying to use Kobane to "blackmail" Turkey, a theme taken up by mainstream Milliyet. Centre-right Haberturk warns readers of a "trap", and pro-government Yeni Safak portrays the protesters as "enemies of Turkey".

Several papers use fire analogies, with tabloid Posta referring to "days of fire". Opposition Cumhuriyet says "fire surrounds Turkey", and left-wing Taraf worries that "Kobane fire burns us from the inside".

Only left-wing Birgun is supportive of the protests, running a provocative headline comparing the governing AKP party with Islamic State - "IS in Kobane, AKP in Turkey".

[Valmy]

When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.

Yeah theoretically the UK is theocratic absolute monarchy.

[Razgovory]

I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic.  They certainly aren't dying in the street there.

Last month they were

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29530640

Turkey Kurds: Kobane protests leave 19 dead

Kurdish protesters and riot police clashed in towns and cities across Turkey

Islamic State

What the Kassig video tells us
Hardest fight
Symbolic Syrian town
Killed for resisting
At least 19 people have been killed in clashes involving Kurdish protesters in Turkey, reports say.

They are unhappy at what they see as Turkish support for Islamic State (IS) militants attacking the border town of Kobane.

Riot police used tear gas and water cannon in a number of towns and cities as the disturbances spread across the country, including Ankara and Istanbul.

Violent protests also erupted on the streets in Germany.

Curfews have now been imposed in several cities in south-eastern Turkey with large Kurdish populations.

Ten of the deaths occurred in the main Turkish-Kurdish city of Diyarbakir, where the rioting saw shops and buses set on fire as well as reported clashes between Kurdish activists and supporters of Islamist groups sympathetic to IS.

Deaths were also reported in the eastern provinces of Mardin, Siirt, Batman and Mus. Many more were injured, and there were casualties in Istanbul and the capital Ankara as trouble spread further west.

While much of the unrest involved Kurdish protesters clashing with police, some of the violence was between Kurdish opponents of IS and radical Islamist Kurds who back the group.

line
Analysis: Mark Lowen, BBC News, in Istanbul

The sudden wave of unrest has taken Turkey by surprise, with protests spreading to almost 30 cities.

Curfews are now in place, in some provinces for the first time in over two decades, and Turkish troops have been deployed.

Some of the violence has been between Kurdish groups and supporters of Islamic State. But the main protests have been directed against the Turkish government, with Kurds calling for military intervention in the besieged town of Kobane.

Turkey's President Erdogan has reiterated that his country will only get more involved if the coalition targets President Bashar al-Assad as well as IS.

But Washington says the air strikes are focused for now on IS. So Turkey remains unlikely to send troops into Syria - and the worst violence for years with the Kurds here looks set to build.

Turkish Interior Minister Efkan Ala accused the demonstrators of "betraying their own country" and warned them to stop protesting or encounter "unpredictable" consequences.

"Violence will be met with violence. This irrational attitude should immediately be abandoned and [the protesters] should withdraw from the streets," he told reporters in Ankara.

But the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) called for members and supporters to take to the streets to protest against the IS offensive.

Although a ceasefire was declared in March 2013, after decades of armed struggle the PKK is seen as a terrorist group in Turkey.

Meanwhile, Turkish border police reportedly stopped as many as 300 Kurds who had crossed into Turkey from Kobane.

line
What the Turkish newspapers are saying:

Most papers are highly critical of the protests. Centre-right Hurriyet denounces them as a "threat to peace", warning they might endanger talks between the government and Kurdish rebels.

It quotes President Erdogan as saying Kurdish politicians are trying to use Kobane to "blackmail" Turkey, a theme taken up by mainstream Milliyet. Centre-right Haberturk warns readers of a "trap", and pro-government Yeni Safak portrays the protesters as "enemies of Turkey".

Several papers use fire analogies, with tabloid Posta referring to "days of fire". Opposition Cumhuriyet says "fire surrounds Turkey", and left-wing Taraf worries that "Kobane fire burns us from the inside".

Only left-wing Birgun is supportive of the protests, running a provocative headline comparing the governing AKP party with Islamic State - "IS in Kobane, AKP in Turkey".

What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?

[Duque de Bragança]

What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?

Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.

[Malthus]

When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.

Almost as bad as those who put their trust in God on the coinage. 

[Razgovory]

What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?

Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.

I was thinking of legal status.

[Duque de Bragança]

What is the status of the PKK in the EU by the way?

Well, for instance, German leftists support this organisation at Goethe University in Frankfurt.

I was thinking of legal status.

I don't think any legal status in the EU warrants 19 dead Kurdish protesters in Turkey or a carte blanche to a loony islamist comparable to Putin in green. There were some protests in the EU as well, and guess what, nobody died. Not all these protesters were PKK militants or supporters besides.

Beyond Turkey, a number of people were hurt when clashes broke out in the German city of Hamburg after hundreds of Kurdish demonstrators in Hamburg held a rally against IS militants.

Some 400 Kurdish protesters fought with a similar number of radical Muslims, police told German media. Demonstrators, some carrying knives and knuckle-dusters, were eventually separated by police firing water cannon.

Injuries were also reported after violence involving members of the Yazidi religious group, most of whom are Kurds, and ethnic Chechens in the town of Celle in Lower Saxony.

[Valmy]

A similar number of pro-IS protestors?  Damn.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know how he's polling now though I think he's been the most popular Turkish head of state with the Kurds in the history the Turkish republic.  They certainly aren't dying in the street there.

Indeed, because of his religious positions.  At least initially.  A lot of people were cautiously optimistic about him at first.

No, because he's been the best Turkish leader for Kurds that I can think of. Thousands of political prisoners have been released, Kurdish language education has been legalised (though only private schools), the restrictions on Kurdish language media have been liberalised and he's opened formal negotiations with the PKK. The economy in Kurdistan is still worse than the rest of Turkey but it's starting to improve, Kurdish language road signs have been legalised, the state's built a big airport in the area which will connect with Europe, the Middle East and (importantly) other Kurdish cities in the region. AKP negotiators have said autonomy is too far but there could be an amnesty of non-violent prisoners, Kurdish language state education and more work on economic development. It's led to an increase in support for the AKP in Kurdish areas over the last few years, while it's declined in other bits of Turkey which was important in his Presidential run and to open protests and criticism of the PKK which is novel, especially by the mothers of fighters and the deceased.

It's worth noting the CHP and MHP don't do that well there as they want to go back to the old status quo, or worse.

Now as I say that's because he's depended on Kurdish support for his constitutional support and, yes, as IS have grown stronger there's a lot more strain on relations because the Kurds blame him, with some justification, for letting their fellow Kurds die in Iraq and Syria.

The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism.  But there are both real and both problems.  Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.

Sure and his foreign policy is also pretty troubling.

But I think it's wrong to say this was all predictable based on issues like the headscarf or subordinating the military to civilian rule - which is what got Languish up in arms. The reasons I've always worried about his authoritarianism are far more to do with the corruption, the network of crony capitalists around AKP and the threatening of the independent media with tax investigations (not over irreligious articles, but ones about corrupt practices). I'm also not convinced that a strong anti-Islamist military intervention would ever have been the answer.

Well that and it was one of the big shining lights that Islam is compatible with a modern state.  Erdogan was supposed to show it was also compatible with a Democratic one.  Granted it was not the only big shining light but it is a pretty big blow.

Sure. I would say he's won these elections fair and square and they have been reasonably free and open. But this as much as anything exposes the weakness of the opposition in Turkey. The CHP haven't properly won an election since the 70s and they're illiberal secularists who want the perks of the state to go to a different clique. The MHP are illiberal ultra-nationalists. The only other parties are Kurdish who are more liberal, but do also include terrorists in their members - though I've read of liberal, Western-minded Turks voting for the Kurdish parties because they're the only ones who actually are liberal - the CHP leader has tried to shift the party on that, but they've lost two elections on his watch and the old guard are saying they need to go back to their party verities, which have served them so well lately.

Unless the opposition get their act together or the 50% of Turkey that don't like AKP can't work together then I think if not as bad as Russia they'll resemble South Africa until Erdogan's economic policies come crashing down - which I think they will and like the CHP his party'll be done in by economic competence. Ironically if he does push through a change of the election laws so parties only need 5% (or no minimum at all) instead of 10% of the vote to get into Parliament that may the opposition.

Anyway the most positive Islamist-democracy experiment is Tunisia, by a mile.

When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.

Sure and the implementation of Turkish laicite gives them greater control over religion than would be normal in any non-theocracy, see Marti's article:

The show instantly drew millions of viewers—and the ire of Turkey's 80,000-odd official imams. The state-run religious-affairs directorate, Diyanet, which writes their sermons, demanded that it be taken off the air. "The imam character is an insult to our faith," it huffed. The directorate has banned filming of the series in Turkish mosques.

My worry on the religious front is that we'll see more discrimination against religious minorities, Erdogan's got a very bad record with the Alawis (again not helped by his Syria policy) and as I say I'd worry about him taking on Gulen more to destroy an independent voice within Turkey than for any theocratic purposes.

A similar number of pro-IS protestors?  Damn.

Yeah

I've seen very big Kurdish protests for intervention against IS - the 'Save Kobani' one was quite moving - but never any pro-IS counter-demonstrations

[grumbler]

When discussing theocracies, lets not forget the UK. It has a state church and the head of state is also the head of that church. The national anthem is even about the god saving their head of state/church.

Yeah theoretically the UK is theocratic absolute monarchy.

What theory is this?  Got a cite?

[The Minsky Moment]

The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism.  But there are both real and both problems.  Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.

The argument last year was that Erdogan was a theocrat and authoritarian regime would be desirable to prevent him from installing theocracy.  As Erdogan's authoritarianism is being used to stymie more religious elements everyone should be happy.

No I don't think it is being used for that purpose at all.  The Gulenists may be cult-like but are quite moderate.

[Razgovory]

The authoritarian illiberalism of Erdogan may be separable from his Islamism.  But there are both real and both problems.  Turkey may not be a theocracy (other than Iran - what is?) but it has made steps towards mixing religious values and law into the state.

The argument last year was that Erdogan was a theocrat and authoritarian regime would be desirable to prevent him from installing theocracy.  As Erdogan's authoritarianism is being used to stymie more religious elements everyone should be happy.

No I don't think it is being used for that purpose at all.  The Gulenists may be cult-like but are quite moderate.

Yeah, but he's more religious, that means he's more bad.  You can't have religious Muslim cause they'll install theocracy.  That was the beef that Marty and Tamas and other had.