Erdogan: Women are not equal to men

[Neil]

Called it years ago. But everyone was so excited about the exotic moderate Muslim government.

By 'everyone', you mean Sheilbh and Raz, right?

[celedhring]

To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?

[Solmyr]

To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?

He's trying to be a mini-Putin.

[KRonn]

Turkey continues its sad move into Authoritarianism. I'm surprised that enough Turks are going along with this to allow the slide away from the government and institutions they had so much pride in, especially given how much they still revere Ataturk and the changes he made. Erdogan has made a lot of moves to undercut that, defanging the military leadership so they couldn't interfere, going after the free media, and more.

[Martinus]

To be honest, he looks headed more towards "traditional values" authoritarianism than a downright teocracy. Progress?

Well, before Erdogan, Turkey has already been a traditional values authoritarianism and he added religious elements to that, so I would say it is a move towards theocracy.

I read an interesting article in the last week's the Economist, how imams have replaced the army as key "censors" of culture.

[Martinus]

Here is the article:

Turkey and Islam

Ban it if you can

A popular new television show falls foul of the imams
Nov 15th 2014 | ISTANBUL | From the print edition

The imam's soap opera

CETIN ALTAN, a celebrated Turkish writer, once told a friend that Turkish films "cannot dare portray an imam as a crook or a general as a faggot". For decades directors who plied their trade under the army's boot refrained from casting the brasshats in an unflattering light. But contrary to Mr Altan's claim, imams were fair game. The corpulent and crafty imam was a staple of films churned out by Turkey's version of Hollywood, called Yesilcam (Green Pine).

When the mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) party catapulted to power 12 years ago, pious Muslims saw their dignity restored. So it came as a shock when ATV, a pro-AK channel, launched a mini-series last month in which the main protagonist is a thief parading as a cleric. Nicknamed "the lizard" for his slippery ways, the rogue assumes the guise of an imam to dodge justice. The show instantly drew millions of viewers—and the ire of Turkey's 80,000-odd official imams. The state-run religious-affairs directorate, Diyanet, which writes their sermons, demanded that it be taken off the air. "The imam character is an insult to our faith," it huffed. The directorate has banned filming of the series in Turkish mosques.

Pro-AK scribes have poured scorn on Diyanet, claiming that it has rushed to judgment without actually watching "Kertenkele". They said the directorate was taking its cue from Fethullah Gulen, a moderate Islamic cleric based in Pennsylvania, who is accused of masterminding the corruption probe against Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his inner circle. That scandal, which erupted last December, was promptly quashed. Thousands of alleged Gulenists in the police have been either purged or arrested on thinly supported charges of seeking to overthrow AK.

Pro-Gulen titles were among the first to attack "Kertenkele." Some suggest this had less to do with religious sensibilities than with fears that the series would snatch viewers from the Gulenists' flagship channel, Samanyolu. The furore has prompted the programme's director, Mesut Ucakan, to give away the ending, when the phoney imam will become an honest man. This revelation has led to suggestions that Mr Erdogan, who was trained as an imam, is travelling in the opposite direction. The graft allegations against him, detailed in a 252-page police report, include claims that he coerced the heads of several big construction firms to raise $450m to rescue Turkuvaz, an ailing but AK-friendly media conglomerate—whose assets include ATV.

[Sheilbh]

I ask you again, has he declared a theocracy?  Yes or No?

You have to excuse Raz.  Anything that offends his good buddy Erdogan sends him rushing to the rescue.

No the criticism lots of people made was based on him being an Islamist and the threat of Islam to democracy. I always said Erdogan had an authoritarian streak (for example using the tax office to intimidate newspapers) and I've been saying he's going Putinish for aages - and I've always said that when a Parliamentary democracy goes Presidential then it's normally over.

But none of that's to do with him being an Islamist, or with Islam. It's to do with corruption, the Putin model and his own authoritarianism.

I read an interesting article in the last week's the Economist, how imams have replaced the army as key "censors" of culture.

Yes. But it's at least part of it's a power struggle between AKP and the Gulenist religious movement who, initially were big supporters of Erdogan, and are now accused of all sorts treacheries not least prompting an anti-corruption investigation into Erdogan's family. AKP, in that article, came down on the side of the TV program opposing the Gulenists.

I think it's got less to do with Islam than an authoritarian state dealing with independent power bases which the Gulen movement certainly is. I think a more likely direction than Turkey becoming more theocratic is Erdogan using the state's power over religion to get Turkish Islam playing the same sort of role as Russian Orthodoxy is for Putin.

[Valmy]

This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.

[Razgovory]

Did Marty actually say he would? That's a bold prediction considering even Iran has elections.

Yeah. I don't argue with Raz because it is so fucking pointless.

I'll take that as a "no".  You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy.  As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.

[Valmy]

I'll take that as a "no".  You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy.  As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.

Things went south enough that it is sort of hard to see how you are vindicated here Raz.  Just that Marty and company were not 100% right.

If the military had performed coup #278 it would just be business as usual in Turkey, not whatever bizarre place we seem to be going.

[Razgovory]

I'll take that as a "no".  You were one of those who actually wanted there to be a dictatorship to prevent theocracy.  As his main opponent is an actual cleric, it would seem the situation is not as you predicted but closed to what you advocated.

Things went south enough that it is sort of hard to see how you are vindicated here Raz.  Just that Marty and company were not 100% right.

If the military had performed coup #278 it would just be business as usual in Turkey, not whatever bizarre place we seem to be going.

They haven't started fighting in Cyrpus and the streets aren't filled with dead, so I would say there is a lot of south remaining to go.

[Sheilbh]

This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.

He's not, no more than Putin is. If he starts building gold statues of himself to rotate with the sun, then maybe. But he's just another example of the Putin model - just like Orban and, I fear possibly one day, Modi too.

[Valmy]

This is about Erdogan being a loony completely unhinged by power.

He's not, no more than Putin is. If he starts building gold statues of himself to rotate with the sun, then maybe. But he's just another example of the Putin model - just like Orban and, I fear possibly one day, Modi too.

Building a giant Versailles palace against the wishes of the Court and starting to say how America was discovered by Muslims seems rather gold statues in sun-ish to me.

[Valmy]

They haven't started fighting in Cyrpus and the streets aren't filled with dead, so I would say there is a lot of south remaining to go.

Um...the Kurds?  But yeah things can certainly get worse.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, it seems to me Erdogan's Turkey is another example of the illiberal democracies that have been rising as of late.  Right wing, authoritarian, and maintaining the facade of liberal democracy.  Erdogan is of course Muslim, so that that drives a lot people crazy.