Erdogan: Women are not equal to men

[Razgovory]

I had never heard the word "Daesh" before.  I had to look it up, seems to be another example of France wanting to control language.  In the US we call them ISIS.

Apparently Daesh/ISIS finds Daesh to be a derogatory term, thus the French adopted it. I would have expected you to approve of that.

You confuse me with someone else.  I like the term ISIS.  It makes it sound like I live in a world of James Bond Villains.

[Razgovory]

Seems I hit a sore spot.

Well yeah if you were similarly wanking off to Vladimir Putin people would also be sore about it.  But yes it is because we hate Muslims that we do not like Erdogan

For our European friends, yeah I think that's a big factor.  I came to this conclusion when people were ranting and raving about Erdogan and then were silent with the Eyptian coup and mass murder that followed.  Honestly, it was sickening.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not so sure about that - how many actual 'Islamicist' elections have there been?

There was Egypt (ended in a coup), there is Turkey (with Erdogan seemingly setting himself up for Putin-hood-type dictatorship), and there was the Palestinian elections resulting in Hamas (no further elections appear likely), and there is Tunisia.

Algeria  ended in a military coup, Egypt ended in a military coup, Palestine ended in an attempted coup, civil war and Hamas takeover, Turkey 3-4 free elections (and yes he's Putinish but the Turkish opposition are disastrously poor), Morocco free-ish elections as democracy is very limited by the crown and Tunisia which has had free Parliamentary, Presidential, Constitutional Convention elections and seen Islamists win, lose and form coalitions. Arguably Iraq too.

Every time Islamists have been elected to office and allowed to take office and serve without a Fatah or military there's been a relatively free and fair election at the end of their term. We've only got the semi-example of Iraq and the real example of Tunisia of what happens when they lose an election but that's a different argument.

[Sheilbh]

For our European friends, yeah I think that's a big factor.  I came to this conclusion when people were ranting and raving about Erdogan and then were silent with the Eyptian coup and mass murder that followed.  Honestly, it was sickening.

I agree. I'm an old fashioned neo-con

Another sickening sight is Tony Blair who I believed was genuinely in favour of democratisation in the Middle East but supported and now helps the Egyptian military regime, consults for the Saudis and recently said the West needs to make a deal with Russia so they can both deal with the common threat of Islamism. It's very disappointing. At least McCain and Lindsay Graham for all their faults have been consistent.

[Malthus]

I'm not so sure about that - how many actual 'Islamicist' elections have there been?

There was Egypt (ended in a coup), there is Turkey (with Erdogan seemingly setting himself up for Putin-hood-type dictatorship), and there was the Palestinian elections resulting in Hamas (no further elections appear likely), and there is Tunisia.

Algeria  ended in a military coup, Egypt ended in a military coup, Palestine ended in an attempted coup, civil war and Hamas takeover, Turkey 3-4 free elections (and yes he's Putinish but the Turkish opposition are disastrously poor), Morocco free-ish elections as democracy is very limited by the crown and Tunisia which has had free Parliamentary, Presidential, Constitutional Convention elections and seen Islamists win, lose and form coalitions. Arguably Iraq too.

Every time Islamists have been elected to office and allowed to take office and serve without a Fatah or military there's been a relatively free and fair election at the end of their term. We've only got the semi-example of Iraq and the real example of Tunisia of what happens when they lose an election but that's a different argument.

Essentially, it has happened ... once. In Tunisia.

I'm not sure that's a large enough sample to state that we can lay to rest the issue of Islamicists being more likely to end democracy. The fact that Islamicist regimes have frequently lead to coups and civil wars may, or may not, be indicative of such problems - certainly Hamas (for example) has shown no desire to restart elections in the territory they control absolutely.

[Sheilbh]

Essentially, it has happened ... once. In Tunisia.

Several times in Tunisia, but by that measure Ireland and Sweden have had about 3 elections in their entire democratic history and post-Apartheid South Africa's still waiting. I agree transfer of power is absolutely key if they lose elections.

But in Islamist regimes it seems to me the bigger threat than the Islamists is the military or the established governing party. I don't think that's the fault of the Islamists, any more than any other government destroyed by coups. Sad truth is it's a bogey word for the West like Communist once was so all sorts of governments are allowed to go to the wall (as are their supporters) while our support of human rights is suddenly rather muted - see Egypt

[CountDeMoney]

Another sickening sight is Tony Blair who I believed was genuinely in favour of democratisation in the Middle East but supported and now helps the Egyptian military regime, consults for the Saudis and recently said the West needs to make a deal with Russia so they can both deal with the common threat of Islamism. It's very disappointing. At least McCain and Lindsay Graham for all their faults have been consistent.

They're still in government service, and don't need the paycheck.

And I don't want to hear any shit about Tony;  he was the only one of you mutts over there that was willing to do anything about the Balkans, because hey: genocide in Europe, that's never been fucking done.

You people would sail halfway across the planet to fight for islands that aren't even yours, but you were more than happy to watch rape camps and atrocities all through the '90s.  And not the good rape camps either, but rape-rape camps.  The bad kind.

[Sheilbh]

Sorry, he's destroyed his reputation as far as I'm concerned. The most embarrassing ex-PM we have

[CountDeMoney]

No, John Major is still alive.

[Sheilbh]

No, John Major is still alive.

He's like 90s-Carter, just enhancing his reputation all the time. Gives the odd statesmanlike speech or interview to help out his party's PM, aside from that he gets on with writing histories of Cricket and Music Hall and chairing his local cricket club.

[CountDeMoney]

Rape-rape camps, Shiv.  Rape-rape.

[Ed Anger]

No, John Major is still alive.

[Sheilbh]

Rape-rape camps, Shiv.  Rape-rape.

I know. He was a great PM. He's been a disgrace since he's left office. There's no regime too autocratic for him to consult for (eg. PR advice to the Kazakhstan government on how to talk about their 'human rights record') or too offensive for him to shill for (attending a Saudi funded conference on inter-faith dialogue, or helping out the Egyptian military) as long as there's enough money in it.

He makes Gerhard Schroeder look like a monk.

[grumbler]

Oh hells no.  If I try to cite something before I know it, it will be five pages later and we will be posting long rebuttals broken into paragraphs.

  Didn't think so.

[LaCroix]

The fact that Islamicist regimes have frequently lead to coups and civil wars may, or may not, be indicative of such problems - certainly Hamas (for example) has shown no desire to restart elections in the territory they control absolutely.

i don't think hamas is a good example. an islamist regime in a stable country is going to look different than one in an unstable country.