Languish.org

I really, REALLY wish I was making this up.

Sadly, I am not.  :(

http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/carlos-benavente-processa-medicos-que-o-internaram-a-forca-e-o-deram-como-louco-1675130 (http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/carlos-benavente-processa-medicos-que-o-internaram-a-forca-e-o-deram-como-louco-1675130)

As you can check, this is one of our country's top newspapers. Also, if you google the title, you'll see it is on all our press. His photo is there, too.

It is in Portuguese, so I will translate:

Carlos Rodrigues [Gustavo, which you know as Ubik of Magna Mundi], the programmer that was forcibly committed during 71 days under the Mental Health Act, has decided to sue five of the doctors that were involved in several stages of his clinical process. The first criminal complaint was filed at the Oeiras Court on September 22nd. This is not the first time that compulsively committed people appeal to the courts against this kind of decision. The relatives, who ordered the commitment, defend that Carlos suffers from "delirious disturbances" and that doesn't want to treat himself.

Carlos Rodrigues, 42 years old, says he had never been to a psychiatrist in his whole life, that he never took any psychiatric medication and that, nevertheless, on October 13th last year, four police officers [PSP] knocked on his door to lead him to the hospital. They had with them a warrant. It was claimed that he was "carrier of a psychic anomaly", that his health condition had "deteriorated", that he represented a danger and refused treatment.

He ended up being committed for 71 days at the Psychiatric and Mental Health Department at the Egas Moniz Hospital in Lisbon, got medicated with injectable antipsychotics. He claims that his "professional life got ruined", that he got a depression because of the commitment and the medication, and that the stigma of his alleged madness will remain forever as a scar.

(...)

In the case of Carlos, it was his relatives, his parents, his brother and sister-in-law, who is a doctor, who asked for his commitment because they were convinced that he suffers from a mental illness of prolonged evolution. At the basis of this conviction by the relatives would be information that he supposedly put on the Internet, claims Carlos. So as the fact that in the family, his paternal grandfather, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The programmer adds that, at the time of his commitment, he had cut relations with his parents, precisely because they had been saying to his friends, underage daughter and professional contacts that he suffers from a mental illness, something that destroyed his credibility and brought him several problems at work.

His relatives, however, claim that Carlos suffers from "delirious ideas", "that he started to tape conversations with his family saying that they were harming him", that he was being watched with video surveillance cameras, and considering "his father as the main culprit of the conspiracy", says the report about his case, made by the Psychiatric Center of Lisbon, which took part in the process of compulsive internment and was appreciated at the Criminal Court of Lisbon. The family tried, for several times, to take him to the psychiatrist and Carlos did not accept, said the relatives.

Carlos has now moved a lawsuit against the doctors, because he claims to have been commited unfairly and that he does not suffer from any mental problem. He especially denies "a clinical information" that was at the origin of his commitment, that was asked by his relatives and is signed by a intern in psychiatrics (still in her graduation period). In the note, the then intern says that the information that was passed to her was given to the intern by the relatives and by the sister-in-law, "worthy of credibility", because it was her "colleague", as it is written in the clinical information of October 11th, 2013, to which the PUBLICO had access.

In the clinical information, even though she never saw him, the doctor takes as granted that Carlos suffers from "delirious perturbances with a long evolution period". She makes reference to his social isolation and severance of his ties with his family. At his first psychiatric evaluation, at the Urgencies of the Hospital S. José, to where he was taken by the police, another doctor wrote that Carlos suffers from "persistant delusional psychosis". Carlos claims that this doctor barely spoke with him, read the clinical information of the other doctor and took informations only near his relatives

Pedro Silva Lopes, Carlo's lawyer, that, for the first time, exposed the case in an opinion article in PUBLICO, says that the document which was the basis of the commitment was requested by him since the beguinning, but was "intentionally hidden during six months" by the hospital. Only on April 9th this year, already after the patient had had leave from the hospital, was the paper given to him. The psychiatrist in question works at the Hospital Egas Moniz, where Carlos was committed.

Carlos Rodrigues asks: "How can you pass a paper saying that a person is a complete looney without having seen him? There are no reports of any misbehaviour".  Carlos Rodrigues claims to have a programming company that recieves european funding and that several deals were lost due to the commitment and the strong antipsychotic medication to which he was forcibly subjected to, besides the fact that he became stymgatized. "This will be with me for the rest of my life. If I have a problem in the bone of my leg and the wrong leg is cut off, I will complain, but an alleged mental patient doesn't have credibility for anything."

Is this the same dude who posted here a couple times?

ubik sounds a lot like my mom  :D

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2014, 10:36:42 PM
Is this the same dude who posted here a couple times?

That he is.  Dude was part of a team that made a mod for... EU3, I think?  They were going to make it into a standalone game with Paradox's support and then things went south when he couldn't keep his mouth shut and couldn't resist taking potshots at the Paradox team, blaming them for everything that was wrong with his own team's development.

Man that's really unfortunate. I hate to see people go out like that. He's right that they fucked his life over. Maybe there is a better way to handle this stuff.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
He's right that they fucked his life over.

How so?

Quote from: garbon on November 05, 2014, 11:32:16 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
He's right that they fucked his life over.

How so?

Getting him branded as crazy and ruining his chances of having a normal life.

Granted...maybe he is. But if he isn't, the damage is done.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:39:51 PM

Quote from: garbon on November 05, 2014, 11:32:16 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
He's right that they fucked his life over.

How so?

Getting him branded as crazy and ruining his chances of having a normal life.

Granted...maybe he is. But if he isn't, the damage is done.

Is it really that damaging to get branded as crazy on the p'dox boards? I mean I guess the drama unfolded further but that was in large par his own making. Besides, if you can't make it in a small subset of the gaming industry - your chances of having a normal life are ruined? :yeahright:

The health care professionals know their shit. If they lock you up for 71 days it's not frivolous. These people have budgets and limited resources, they are not going to waste them.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
Man that's really unfortunate. I hate to see people go out like that. He's right that they fucked his life over. Maybe there is a better way to handle this stuff.

Schizophrenia is a hell of a disease.  There is no easy way to deal with it.

Quote from: Barrister on November 06, 2014, 12:19:02 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
Man that's really unfortunate. I hate to see people go out like that. He's right that they fucked his life over. Maybe there is a better way to handle this stuff.

Schizophrenia is a hell of a disease.  There is no easy way to deal with it.

This I know. Unfortunately.

Quote from: garbon on November 06, 2014, 12:05:53 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:39:51 PM

Quote from: garbon on November 05, 2014, 11:32:16 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
He's right that they fucked his life over.

How so?

Getting him branded as crazy and ruining his chances of having a normal life.

Granted...maybe he is. But if he isn't, the damage is done.

Is it really that damaging to get branded as crazy on the p'dox boards? I mean I guess the drama unfolded further but that was in large par his own making. Besides, if you can't make it in a small subset of the gaming industry - your chances of having a normal life are ruined? :yeahright:

We're not talking about what is posted on the Paradox forums.  We're talking about being involuntarily confined for 2 1/2 months, and potential employers thinking that you're a nutjob.

Granted, I take his claims that he had no mental health problems and that it was just a matter of his family and doctors screwing him over with a grain of salt.  His family might have had ulterior motive (or simply been wrong about his mental state), but it's harder to credibly think that about the doctors.  And while I have no idea what the situation is in Portugal, in the US it's almost impossible to get someone involuntarily committed unless they are very clearly a danger to themselves or others.

Quote from: Barrister on November 06, 2014, 12:19:02 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
Man that's really unfortunate. I hate to see people go out like that. He's right that they fucked his life over. Maybe there is a better way to handle this stuff.

Schizophrenia is a hell of a disease.  There is no easy way to deal with it.

Yeah, it sucks.

Quote from: dps on November 06, 2014, 01:48:13 AMin the US it's almost impossible to get someone involuntarily committed unless they are very clearly a danger to themselves or others.

Yeah right. That's not what I've seen in all those movies. :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2014, 10:36:42 PM
Is this the same dude who posted here a couple times?

Yeah, now I remember him.  Didn't know he was nuts.  I thought he was just... well maybe... yeah I guess he was just nuts.

According to this article from a Portuguese gaming site (http://bgamer.sapo.pt/index.php/noticias/article/15734-produtor-de-videojogos-portugues-internado-por-problemas-mentais (http://bgamer.sapo.pt/index.php/noticias/article/15734-produtor-de-videojogos-portugues-internado-por-problemas-mentais)) that gives a second hand version of the events from Ubik's side, it's all because of personal enmity with his father, who dislikes him putting long hours at work from home without seeing other people, something that has always rubbed his family the wrong way, and that after a six month ordeal he is now medically cleared from any psychiatric issue. They end up with a "game developers are such a misunderstood bunch" spiel, complaining that the videogame industry is frequently misjudged by those who don't understand it, thinking that hours in front of the computer are not real work, and wondering if construction workers that put up 16h workdays like programmers should be committed as well.

Thanks for the article, Larch.

It is illustrated with a photo of Ubik giving them a past interview, as well as screenshots from Magna Mundi.

Here is the translation:

Portuguese producer committed for mental issues

Carlos Gustavo, the producer of Magna Mundi and World Stage, experienced months of horror when he was forcibly committed by his family due to "mental issues".

This sounds like a title typical of a generalist and sensationalist publication, but the story of Carlos Gustavo has ran through different media due to the bizarre way that he was treated. This would have been another ocasional and curious-to-read case, but the person in question is connected to the videogame industry, and BGamer, knowing him personally, could not bypass this story. To know in-depth the bizarre narration of Carlos, forcibly commited in the psychiatrical ward of the Egas Moniz Hospital, you can read the stories published by Ionline and PUBLICO [this last one is the one translated in the Opening Post - ms]

The story came to the attention of our colleague Bruno Mendonça, which was following this case due to curiosity, but he was amazed when the last news about the affair indicated a turnaround, illustrated with a photo of Carlos. Some years ago, Rui Parreira and Bruno Mendonça had interviewed the producer at BGamer's redaction, about World Stage. Already at the time, he had told us about his story of conflict with Paradox about the cancellation of Magna Mundi, and even some confidences about problems with the family, related to his work as videogame producer, but BGamer never published these because they were out of context.

Summing up his story, the endless hours around the computer have never been well seen by his family. In his 40s, divorced and with an underage daughter, he always felt harassed by his own father, who accused him of isolation, acusing him of spending more time at the computer than with his friends. The tight deadlines for the delivery of the projects translated into long work sessions.

Forcibly commited

One day, while he was working normally in his home, he recieved the visit of four police officers, with a warrant for his immediate commitment. The warrant, according to what is described in the newspaper stories, was written by his own sister-in-law, a doctor, and whithout specialized verification. Over several months Carlos was not only kept in a mental facility, but also medicated with different anti-psychotic drugs, even when he had never been diagnosed with any of the psychic issues that he was accused of. The first doctor that observed him had evaluated his behaviour of denial of the disease as one of the symptoms of the same... to make his ordeal worse, the use of a laptop and cellphone was denied to him, and to read he could only consult the library of the hospital.

The end of the story is bittersweet. After almost six months it was proven that Carlos did not suffer from any problem, and he is now free from any decree that he is "insane"; but his resistance against medication and psychological pressure left him with serious scars: a deep depression and a denigration of his professional image, having lost projects of international companies.

Carlos Gustavo has already filed a judicial action in court against the five doctors that erroneously diagnosed him throughout the process. His family still alleges that Carlos has mental issues, noting a family precedent - his grandfather had schizophrenia.

Regardless of being a case of bad medical decisions, it stands out the way as the activity around the videogame industry is judged by those that do not understand it. The hours passed in front of the computer are seen as amusement, and with no future - even if the person in qustion is paid and independent? What if the same person worked in the Civil Construction and was forced to work 16 hours a day (as it happens to many programmers), would he be committed? This is food for thought...

From the BGamer's redaction, we feel we have to give a strong hug to Carlos for the courage to overcome this situation and wish him a fast return to his projects.

Maybe next they can do OHGamer.

Quote from: Neil on November 06, 2014, 09:16:45 AM
Maybe next they can do OHGamer.

I feel bad for laughing :D

Quote from: Neil on November 06, 2014, 09:16:45 AM
Maybe next they can do OHGamer.

Whatever for?

Not sure how Portugal does it, but here, if he wasn't at least borderline on something serious, they would have taken him in for usually 7 days of observation (21 days is the longest I've heard of for just an observation), then just cleared him and put him back out on the street.

Again, not familiar with how Portuguese mental health facilities function, but here, 71 days sounds like at least an isolated breakdown took place (granted, there's a chicken-egg question of how a forcible commitment could be traumatic enough to trigger an isolated breakdown).

Quote from: dps on November 06, 2014, 01:48:13 AM

Quote from: garbon on November 06, 2014, 12:05:53 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:39:51 PM

Quote from: garbon on November 05, 2014, 11:32:16 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 05, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
He's right that they fucked his life over.

How so?

Getting him branded as crazy and ruining his chances of having a normal life.

Granted...maybe he is. But if he isn't, the damage is done.

Is it really that damaging to get branded as crazy on the p'dox boards? I mean I guess the drama unfolded further but that was in large par his own making. Besides, if you can't make it in a small subset of the gaming industry - your chances of having a normal life are ruined? :yeahright:

We're not talking about what is posted on the Paradox forums.  We're talking about being involuntarily confined for 2 1/2 months, and potential employers thinking that you're a nutjob.

Granted, I take his claims that he had no mental health problems and that it was just a matter of his family and doctors screwing him over with a grain of salt.  His family might have had ulterior motive (or simply been wrong about his mental state), but it's harder to credibly think that about the doctors.  And while I have no idea what the situation is in Portugal, in the US it's almost impossible to get someone involuntarily committed unless they are very clearly a danger to themselves or others.

I totally misread what MIM was saying! :blush:

On to what you said though - it seems like the "them" in question would be the media then. After all, it seems like it would be possible to live a normal life after an involuntary hold if it wasn't widespread knowledge.

This is the story that came out on the 'I', another top newspaper.

http://www.ionline.pt/artigos/portugal/carlos-ficou-tres-meses-num-manicomio-onde-so-ele-nao-estava-doido-0/pag/-1 (http://www.ionline.pt/artigos/portugal/carlos-ficou-tres-meses-num-manicomio-onde-so-ele-nao-estava-doido-0/pag/-1)

Rather grim:


Carlos was three months inside a madhouse where only he wasn't mad

The family didn't want him to spend so much time in front of the computer. And he was committed without being seen or heard.

That Monday, Carlos opened his eyes and he was the only one that was not insane.

He wondered the hallways of the psychiatric ward of the Egas Moniz Hospital and tried to explain to the doctors that it was all a mistake. That he never had stopped being the IT technician, that he made games for major European companies. In that day, as in the following months, he invariably heard what he did not wanted: "One of the characteristics of your psychopathology is that you have no notion of your problem. You need to stay here to be treated".

During almost three months, Carlos would always end these conversations trying to reconstruct the last years. He would remember the arguments he had had with his father over his health, but none of the arguments that the family had presented to him justified that four police officers [PSP] had gone to fetch him at his home on a Sunday with a warrant to lead him to the hospital.

He just had lunch and was going to sit in front of his computer to advance the projects that had a tighter deadline. The hardship of making projects for several companies was to spend his days around the monitor and the keyboard. He had less and less time for his friends. He almost never had thought about it, but now he had time to make a balance of what had gone well and what he would not do again.

What had he done to be there, under medication with injectable antipsychotics and sedatives? The cold walls and the iron beds were not helping him to find an answer. And it wasn't just him saying that he had no psychopathology. The doctor that took him at the Hospital of São José, in Lisbon, also did not found any relevant sign: "During the interview, was not possible to gain evidence of any aspect compatible with psychopathology, with the exception of a certain secretism, slight inconsistencies that he tried to avoid by reaffirming the truth f the facts that he experienced, denoting some tension". Yet, the psychiatrist Anabela A. Barbosa wrote in the urgency file that she decided on his interment on the basis of an interview with his parents and in what the patient was writing on Facebook.

The decision relaxed the father, who did not agree with the course that the son was taking. Ever since Carlos decided, one year ago, to divorce his wife, he spent even more time on his computer than with friends, leading many to speculate about the possibility that, at age 41, he could be developing the paranoid schizophrenia of his paternal grandfather.

He never listened to what they told him. He did not saw any sense in those concerns, since he led an independent life and claimed to be socially integrated.

His sister-in-law, doctor in the National Health Service, would have been an important element in the whole process of compulsive internment. The doctor that made the first clinical evaluation on which is interment was based on is clear: the patient was not seen, but the reports of the family are "worthy of credibility (the sister-in-law is my colleague)".

Formally, it all started on October 11th, 2013. Without seeing the patient, the doctor Maria Madalena Serra writes, black on white in the clinical information that it is a "delirious pathology that has had a long time to evolve without any kind of treatment". She finishes noting that considers his interment to be important.

Two hours later, the health deputy was already issuing a warrant that lead to an urgent placement at the hospital, due to the existence of "an acute deterioration of his health condition". In this document, and again without having been seen nor heard, Carlos now became the "carrier of a psychic anomaly".

Far away from what was happening at the Hospital of São Francisco Xavier and at the warnings of the health authorities, he busied his days doing the same as always, distracted himself hours at a time in front of the computer, working, and tried to overcome some problems that had arisen with the end of his relationship, of which he has a daughter.

At the internal record of the Hospital Egas Moniz it would be recorded that days before "he would have called his parents to his home, to tell them that he wanted to go to court to prove that he was not insane and that everyone else was wrong". This attitude and an alleged "incompatibilization" with some relatives was what led them to "activate the process of retrieval by the Psychiatric Urgencies Service".

SHALL WE GO TO THE DOCTOR? "Good afternoon, we have a warrant and you sir will have to come with us". The surprise of seeing four PSP officers at his door was that of those that do not have a criminal record: "Good afternoon. Excuse me, but for what reason?"

On the way to the Hospital de São José his nerves did not take away his hope that his truth would be confirmed by a clinical evaluation. And that ended up happening. The doctor did not detect anything that was an evidence of psychopathology, but what Carlos though or the doctor's analysis was of little use.  He was transferred at 19h20 of Sunday to the Egas Moniz Hospital.

"From the interview with his parents it is underlined by those a behavior that is compatible with persistent persecutory ideaction addressed towards his parents, associated with publications on Facebook", said the psychiatrist to justify her decision to transfer the patient to internment.

After he was checked in at Egas Moniz, his problems increased. The IT technician was without access to a computer, tablet or cellphone. The doctor that initially followed his case was, without his knowledge, the same one that days before had done the clinical report based on the description of his sister-in-law.

Betweent he sleep of the medication and the conscience of the movie he was stuck in, Carlos began to try to revert all that had happened to him in the court. His official lawyer asked for an habeas corpus, that is, immediate release, but it was not accepted. "In these situations, it is hard for the courts to go against the diagnosis of a doctor. As a rule, you do not take a chance", explained a judicial source to the 'I'. That could our not have been the reason.

Since he had to stay, Carlos sought refuge in books – but he slammed into the prohibition to read any work that was not in the hospital's library. He wanted to move forward with the several projects he had underway during the visits by friends and colleagues, but every day that passed he became more broken by the medication.

In the beginning, he still tried to fight against it without the doctors finding out, but he was soon caught. In internal documents to which the 'I' had acces, the doctors say that the patient "began treatment with oral antipsychotics, which revealed itself ineffective due to the patient's evasive manouvers (occultation of medication, elimination of the pills in the toilet or in the trash, etc)". They also add that, to go around that situation "it has been initiated the treatment with an intra-muscular antipsychotic [i.e. injections – ms] that was in Depot".

NEW LAWYER This process began with information given by relatives, but Carlos always counted with the support of this friends to find a lawyer that could handle his case with more attention than the one the State had provided him. "Not that there was any incompatibility between them", said a source close to the process. But even that turned itself against him. In consulted papers, the doctors justify the change of lawyer with "the disease" and say that Carlos did it because he considered that the State lawyer was in cahoots with his family.

"He was appointed a lawyer that the patient refuses, as he includes him in his delirious sphere", it is read, for example, in the hospital report of Deceber 19th – the day of the first victory of Carlos. In the internal note, he is still labelled as a sick person with "delirious perturbation", but now he can do the treatment at home, having to report himself every 15 days.

The exit of the Egas Moniz happened when he was already having doubts and that the one wrong in the whole affair was him, that maybe he was sick and did not realize it. Under the doses of Carbamazepine, Olanzapin, Risperdal and Lrazepam, all was all a doubt, but seeing the gates of the hospital behind gave him strength to fight for his truth.

With the leave, the medication kept being reduced. And it was already in April, five months after having been committed, that a report of psychiatrical evaluation revealed that, despite the reduced doseages, there was no change to his behavior.

This report, that was asked to the Criminal Instruction Court at the district of Northeast Great Lisbon-Sintra area in December, when Carlos had left in ambulatory regime, had arrived some months late, but left no margin for doubts: he was not sick.

Even though he did not present signs of psychopathology, the months he underwent under medication, the fact that he was denied every time he claimed to be the victim of an error left their mark. The 41-year-old IT technician underwent a state of clinical depression, and since he was released that he has been under surveillance by the hospital of his area of residence, to minimize the sequels.

COURT DECISION It was not however the evaluation of independent doctors that brought some respite, but rather the recognition by the Justice that, after all, he was not insane. In June, with an almost normal routine and ever more disconnected from his family – which insisted in his alleged illness – Carlos saw the court of Northeast Lisbon recognize his mental health. "It is verified, on one hand, that at this date there are no traces of psycothic streaks in the committed person [which, according to the assistant doctor, would have been remitted], being accurate that [...] it is not identified [...] a concrete situation of danger to the juridical assets of himself or of others".

The judge also assures that "the requirements necessary for the maintenance in compulsive interment of any kind of the subject are not present". And she concludes: "I determine the end of the same internment without putting aside a voluntary treatment".

Ever since the beginning that the Defense sustained that "several rights have been denied to Carlos in this process". Now that the case has reached the end, explains Pedro Silva Lopes, the "constitutional right to freedom, the right to personal integrity nor the right to a personality" were taken into account. At a meeting in Cascais, the lawyer expained to the 'i' that the whole process left marks on his cliente that will not be cured only with the discovery of the truth.

Carlos has already managed to rebuild part of his old life, has already been present at events in the United States of Amerca to present some informatics projects, but there is still much to recover. He does not want to say where he is, he wants to know who was goaded by his parents and managed what in Portugal is only done in the most serious cases: a compulsive interment without seeing the patient.

 :lol:  Poor bastard.

"I'm not crazy!"
*patient demonstrates denial ideations*

Wow.  Hopefully this results in a restraining order or whatever Portuguese analog exists- that sounds like a relationship that's not worth repairing.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 06, 2014, 11:35:55 AM
:lol:  Poor bastard.

"I'm not crazy!"
*patient demonstrates denial ideations*

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 06, 2014, 11:35:55 AM
:lol:  Poor bastard.

"I'm not crazy!"
*patient demonstrates denial ideations*

Indeed.

If you admit you're crazy, you're crazy.

If you say you're not, you're a crazyman in denial.

That's a... Paradox, I think  :hmm:

It's like Hitchcock wrote this.

Quote from: Martinus on November 06, 2014, 02:46:50 AM

Quote from: dps on November 06, 2014, 01:48:13 AMin the US it's almost impossible to get someone involuntarily committed unless they are very clearly a danger to themselves or others.

Yeah right. That's not what I've seen in all those movies. :P

???  Don't know what movies you're watching.  If you're talking about ones like the one where Jessica Lange played Frances Farmer, yeah, back before the early-to-mid 1970's it was much easier to have someone involuntarily committed.

QuoteUnder the doses of Carbamazepine, Olanzapin, Risperdal and Lrazepam,

Jesus.  Talk about being forced into a fog.  Or Capetan Mihali's usual late-afternoon wind-down cocktail.

Quote from: Martim Silva on November 06, 2014, 05:20:07 PM
Indeed.

If you admit you're crazy, you're crazy.

If you say you're not, you're a crazyman in denial.

That's a... Paradox, I think  :hmm:

Catch 22.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 06, 2014, 06:36:06 PM

QuoteUnder the doses of Carbamazepine, Olanzapin, Risperdal and Lrazepam,

Jesus.  Talk about being forced into a fog.  Or Capetan Mihali's usual late-afternoon wind-down cocktail.

Eh, I've taken two of those, and the another very similar one.  It's not so bad.

Lorazepam! :)

Quote from: garbon on November 07, 2014, 12:27:18 AM
Lorazepam! :)

No he said "Lrazepam".  Damned if I know what it is though.

The guy always seemed high strung in his interventions.  But to be treated like that...  If he wasn't over the edge before this sure didn't help.




G.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 07, 2014, 10:00:03 AM

Quote from: garbon on November 07, 2014, 12:27:18 AM
Lorazepam! :)

No he said "Lrazepam".  Damned if I know what it is though.

Popular weekend destination in Poland.

This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary.  That lazy news people chose to follow the "only sane man in the nuthouse" angle isn't surprising; it makes for more clicks than "crazy man gets treated like a crazy man."

I'm glad he got treated and, at least temporarily, cured.  Better to be sane and angry than insane and unaware of it.

In a world gone mad the one-eyed monster cash is king.

Quote from: grumbler on November 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary.  That lazy news people chose to follow the "only sane man in the nuthouse" angle isn't surprising; it makes for more clicks than "crazy man gets treated like a crazy man."

I'm glad he got treated and, at least temporarily, cured.  Better to be sane and angry than insane and unaware of it.

Indeed.

I just spent two days in court with a lady with obvious mental health issues, including that she has been involuntarily hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital for periods of time.

But not according to her.  Indeed, much like Ubik here, she had long and lengthy complaints about how her family has treated her (not that it was at all relevant).  When asked about being hospitalized, all she would admit was a diagnosis for PTSD (and not the schizophrenia that was pretty obvious).

Quote from: Barrister on November 07, 2014, 01:03:32 PM

Quote from: grumbler on November 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary.  That lazy news people chose to follow the "only sane man in the nuthouse" angle isn't surprising; it makes for more clicks than "crazy man gets treated like a crazy man."

I'm glad he got treated and, at least temporarily, cured.  Better to be sane and angry than insane and unaware of it.

Indeed.

I just spent two days in court with a lady with obvious mental health issues, including that she has been involuntarily hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital for periods of time.

But not according to her.  Indeed, much like Ubik here, she had long and lengthy complaints about how her family has treated her (not that it was at all relevant).  When asked about being hospitalized, all she would admit was a diagnosis for PTSD (and not the schizophrenia that was pretty obvious).

You make nothing of the fact that the court said he was right and his commitment was not valid? That's an odd attitude for a lawyer to take. I bet you think all people are guilty, especially those found innocent by the court. :P

Few people embrace their madness. :(

Quote from: Martinus on November 07, 2014, 01:21:21 PM

Quote from: Barrister on November 07, 2014, 01:03:32 PM

Quote from: grumbler on November 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary.  That lazy news people chose to follow the "only sane man in the nuthouse" angle isn't surprising; it makes for more clicks than "crazy man gets treated like a crazy man."

I'm glad he got treated and, at least temporarily, cured.  Better to be sane and angry than insane and unaware of it.

Indeed.

I just spent two days in court with a lady with obvious mental health issues, including that she has been involuntarily hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital for periods of time.

But not according to her.  Indeed, much like Ubik here, she had long and lengthy complaints about how her family has treated her (not that it was at all relevant).  When asked about being hospitalized, all she would admit was a diagnosis for PTSD (and not the schizophrenia that was pretty obvious).

You make nothing of the fact that the court said he was right and his commitment was not valid? That's an odd attitude for a lawyer to take. I bet you think all people are guilty, especially those found innocent by the court. :P

Just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean they were innocent.

Here, there is typically a high threshold to involuntarily commit someone to a mental hospital.  But just because that high threshold wasn't met here doesn't mean that Ubik is perfectly sane.

There's a lot of area between perfectly sane and it's totally legit to strip his rights away rah rah law enforcement.

This was injustice. Pure and simple.

Quote from: Martinus on November 07, 2014, 01:21:21 PM
You make nothing of the fact that the court said he was right and his commitment was not valid? That's an odd attitude for a lawyer to take. I bet you think all people are guilty, especially those found innocent by the court. :P

Are you sure that that is actually what the court said?  hat's an odd conclusion for a lawyer to reach, given that the only "news" we have about a court decision is that, something like a year later, a court said that he was not, at that time, commitable.  I don't see anything authoritative that claims that the court ruled his previous "commitment was not valid."  I doubt that a court could even reach such a conclusion as a matter of fact.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 07, 2014, 04:26:33 PM
This was injustice. Pure and simple.

This is argument by unsupported assertion.  Pure and simple.

Well, this is turning to be a bit of a national scandal. There is talk about changing the Mental Healt Act.

Ubik was interviewed today by 'Rádio Renascença' (one of our major radio stations).

Here is the video of the interview, which is accompanied by a panel of experts. It is in Portuguese, but you can take the chance to see Ubik's face, hear his voice and see his body language:

http://vmais.rr.sapo.pt/default.aspx?fil=801304

(it can be preceded by a short ad)

Also, the whole incident has put the health officials under pressure:

http://www.ionline.pt/artigos/portugal/internamento-compulsivo-sem-ver-doente-n-normal (http://www.ionline.pt/artigos/portugal/internamento-compulsivo-sem-ver-doente-n-normal)

Psychiatry. Compulsive interment without seeing the patient is not normal

In reaction to 'I's story, the director of the Psychiatric Center of Lisbon says that, in a similar case, he would open an inquiry

"Medicine is not an exact science", warns the clinical director of the Psychiatric Center of Lisbon. According to José Salgado it is not, however, normal to be issued a warrant to be led to urgencies wihout the patient having already been seen or followed by the doctor that makes the report. Faced with the case of Carlos reported by 'I', a man that was interned for three months in a psyciatrical ward without having any problems, José Salgado said: "It is not at all usual that a patient could be led to the hospital without being seen", and he admitted thatat  the root could be "a clinical or ethical error".

Contacted because he is responsible for the psychiatrical urgencies at São José, he said he has nothing to say about the case, since that, after Carlos entered this hospital, the internment was made already at Egas Moniz: "and that hospital does not belong to us". Even so, Salgado said that he has no doubts that, "if a similar situation ever happens at the Psychiatrical Center of Lisbon, [we will act] immediately, opening an inquiry to establish the truth of the facts".

The stance that a compulsive internemt with these characteristics is not common is shared by Mário Durval, Health Deputy at Barreiro: " It would not even be a legally correct procedure, if already at the entry interview there was no signs of an illness".

Egas Moniz Hospital has not answered, however, if the case has been or will be analyzed, but it confirmed that "the interment of the patient lasted for 71 days". The health unit underlined also that after this situation, the patient is being "followed in psychiatrical consultations at the hospital of his area of residence".

About the fact that the Health Delegate Rita Saldanha de Azevedo had issued a warrant to be led to the urgencies with basis on an information made without evaluating the patient in person, the 'I' put that question to the Regional Health Administration of Lisbon, which said it could not talk about the case. "Without the express consent of the responsible in question, it cannot nor should be divulged or commented on [personal data], especially when the purpose of those is to be published by the media", answered an official source, which noted that this process is handled by the hospitals themselves.

"The procss of the mentioned sick person is ran by the hospitals, with whok the Regional Administration keeps a constant articulation, and simultaneously involves acts and competences of other institutions, namely the Health Authorities and the Courts".

Quote from: Raz
No he said "Lrazepam".  Damned if I know what it is though.

Note: it was Lorazepan as it says in the article; I was blitz-translating, so I misspelled those complicated names (which I also changed from their portuguese names to what I guessed could be their English-language conterparts).

Hey, the most I take are aspirins, those names all sound weird to me.

Quote from: grumbler on November 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary.  That lazy news people chose to follow the "only sane man in the nuthouse" angle isn't surprising; it makes for more clicks than "crazy man gets treated like a crazy man."

I'm glad he got treated and, at least temporarily, cured.  Better to be sane and angry than insane and unaware of it.

Here comes Grumbler with the bag of straw.  He wasn't "cured," the facility was forced to release him when the court questioned the validity of the commitment itself.

Should mental patients be able to just say "I'm cured!" and get out?  No (Sorry, Constantine).

Quote from: grumbler on November 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
This must be one of the slowest news days ever.  No person ever involuntarily committed to an asylum ever admitted that they neded to be committed; if they had, it wouldn't be involuntary. 

Someone once told me about a patient satisfaction survey by highly paid consultants in the hospital he works. When they asked the head of psychiatry why his patients were much less satisfied than those of all other departments, he just said "The doors here don't have handles."  :P

Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 08, 2014, 11:38:41 AMHere comes Grumbler with the bag of straw.  He wasn't "cured," the facility was forced to release him when the court questioned the validity of the commitment itself.

that's not what the court said. the court said the hospital lacked insufficient cause to continue to involuntarily hold ubik. the hospital could have had cause to involuntarily hold ubik on day one. the hospital could have had cause to continue to hold him up until the court proceeding, too. at this point, we can't know exactly what happened, because a vast portion of the story comes from one side.

without more, i'm inclined to trust the neutral experts over a suspected (paranoid?) schizophrenic.

It should be easier to involuntary commit someone in the US.  Would certainly cut down in the number of street people and maybe the maybe school/workplace shootings.

We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 08, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

I didn't say "Weird", nor am I suggesting permanent imprisonment.  I'm talking about taking care of people who really need help.  One of the most insidious elements of mental illness is that people who have it often deny it and refuse to take medications to treat the illness.  The sad fact is that people who have these illnesses are the least able to decide for themselves if they should be in the hospital.  I'm suggesting a larger mental health system and the ability of teachers, councilors, police, parole officers etc to be able to send someone in for evaluation and possible long term treatment.  Long term treatment is not necessarily long term hospitalization, but in most cases out patient treatment.

problem with that is the potential for abuse. as well, many of those who don't want treatment may not need treatment. do we need to force treatment on a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic who poses no danger to others and is fully employed?

No. I'd rather have schizophrenic people on the streets than people with the power to imprison the innocent running wild.

Innocents are fairly dangerous running wild.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 08, 2014, 05:14:10 PM
No. I'd rather have schizophrenic people on the streets than people with the power to imprison the innocent running wild.

This isn't about guilt or innocence.  I would not want to sacrifice hundreds of thousands to a hellish torment and early death to appease the paranoia of those who hate the government.

I think most psychiatrists will tell you they can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 08, 2014, 05:05:27 PM
problem with that is the potential for abuse. as well, many of those who don't want treatment may not need treatment. do we need to force treatment on a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic who poses no danger to others and is fully employed?

The current system leads to widespread abuse of mentally ill people.  Homeless crazies are frequently beaten, robbed, raped and murdered.  I'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
I think most psychiatrists will tell you they can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

That's fairly trite.  For people whose illnesses make them unable to reach out for help, there's probably a better solution than MiM's forcing them to wander the streets.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
I think most psychiatrists will tell you they can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

Yeah, when they are talking about depression or alcohol abuse.  Not so much for things like Schizophrenia.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 08:45:00 PM

Quote from: LaCroix on November 08, 2014, 05:05:27 PM
problem with that is the potential for abuse. as well, many of those who don't want treatment may not need treatment. do we need to force treatment on a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic who poses no danger to others and is fully employed?

The current system leads to widespread abuse of mentally ill people.  Homeless crazies are frequently beaten, robbed, raped and murdered.  I'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

US Senator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Ernst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Ernst)

Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2014, 08:45:54 PM
That's fairly trite.

Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded.


Jailing people without cause "for their own good" will almost never be preferable to the alternative.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2014, 09:15:56 PM

Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2014, 08:45:54 PM
That's fairly trite.

Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded.


Jailing people without cause "for their own good" will almost never be preferable to the alternative.

Fortunately nobody is suggesting that.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 08, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

Back in the day it was a lot easier for a police officer to write an emergency petition (1 page) on somebody than it was to write out a statement of charges (omg moar than 1 page!).  Saw that happen plenty of times; you don't want to go through the bullshit of booking for something silly like loitering or talking to themselves while pissing on a bus stop or what have you?  Just drop him off at the hospital ER, tell them you heard the guy say he wanted to hurt himself, fill out and sign the EP in about 90 seconds and you're off to Dunkin' Donuts, because America Runs On Dunkin' Donuts^tm.  Sometimes the evaluation determines the person's OK and cut lose from the hospital, sometimes he gets a 72 hour evaluation that really pisses him off.

It got so bad for the hospitals the PD had to change procedure, because the hospitals where getting swamped with EPs that weren't EPs, and it suddenly dawned on everybody that cops were abusing the system by dumping people off at the hospitals.  So when the rules were changed that officers where required to stay with the defendant/patient at the hospital since the defendant was technically in their custody until the hospital accepted them, the number of EPs really wound down.  Amazing what happens when you make cops do their jobs sometimes.

The price of Freedom is the continued suffering of others. :(

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 08:47:50 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
I think most psychiatrists will tell you they can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

Yeah, when they are talking about depression or alcohol abuse.  Not so much for things like Schizophrenia.

Indeed.

Schizophrenia has wonderful success rates with modern pharmaceuticals.

It can't be cured but can be managed.  However the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.  I'm schizotypal, I've had enough of auditory hallucination and intrusive thoughts to know it's bad news, and I've certainly not seen the worst of it.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 10:46:05 PMHowever the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.

That is so true. It's immense.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 08, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 08, 2014, 11:08:17 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 10:46:05 PMHowever the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.

That is so true. It's immense.

Yeah but it also leads to big personality changes and often depression. I have known two schizotypal people in my life and they said medication does very bad things to them as well (it just suppresses their schizophrenia symptoms), to the extent that extended use of it makes them think of suicide as a preferred option.

That's why I think that people who talk about medication as if it was a clear choice and not taking it was just silly do not know half of it. It is never that simple. To live a relatively bearable life, a schizotypal person has to go on and off medication in cycles. The problem is that it is never easy to time it right.

Quote from: Martinus on November 09, 2014, 01:18:49 AM
It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

Yes, you're right. Do we let people hurt themselves? It's tough but I don't see a moral way to intervene unless they are a threat to others.

Quote from: Martinus on November 09, 2014, 01:24:17 AM

That's why I think that people who talk about medication as if it was a clear choice and not taking it was just silly do not know half of it. It is never that simple. To live a relatively bearable life, a schizotypal person has to go on and off medication in cycles. The problem is that it is never easy to time it right.

The one I am familiar with there was no on and off. It was drugs or death, basically. Just horrible.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 09, 2014, 01:24:48 AM

Quote from: Martinus on November 09, 2014, 01:18:49 AM
It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

Yes, you're right. Do we let people hurt themselves? It's tough but I don't see a moral way to intervene unless they are a threat to others.

Yeah. I mean we let people hurt themselves by refusing life saving medical procedures in the name of their religious beliefs for example. I don't see why we should treat mass insanity that is religion differently from individual insanity.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 08:45:00 PMI'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

for one example, call center. high-functioning is high-functioning. there are paranoid schizophrenics who are able to have steady employment.

I know a lawyer who managed to practice as an environmental law expert with mild schizophrenia. Unfortunately, later it deteriorated and she had to stop.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 02:12:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2014, 08:45:00 PMI'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

for one example, call center. high-functioning is high-functioning. there are paranoid schizophrenics who are able to have steady employment.

Actually, a job where you have to deal directly with customers on a constant basis is probably one that is least suitable for schizoprenics. But any job where you work, broadly, alone; can work from home; and requires creativity and expertise, could work. Of course as with most diseases there are people with more mild or more severe cases of it, so YMMV.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 02:12:48 AM
for one example, call center. high-functioning is high-functioning. there are paranoid schizophrenics who are able to have steady employment.

Nope.  Speaking from firsthand experience, a call center gig is not a good gig for a schizophrenic.  There's a lot less isolation between workers in a call center, so when one person has a breakdown, it's hugely disruptive to the entire operation.

Net result of the situation I'm thinking of: the guy had to be fired, and for an afternoon, everybody was a little worried about going home because the guy in question started wandering around the parking lot, screaming at air.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 08, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
without more, i'm inclined to trust the neutral experts over a suspected (paranoid?) schizophrenic.

I don't know. I mean it's quite difficult to section someone here, but it used to be easier and perhaps a little more prone to mistake/abuse. That it can proceed without a doctor seeing him and, from what I can see, the medical evidence initially coming from an involved party (his sister(-in-law?)) is a bit dubious. It makes me wonder a little about the Portuguese system.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 09, 2014, 08:20:44 AM
Nope.  Speaking from firsthand experience, a call center gig is not a good gig for a schizophrenic.  There's a lot less isolation between workers in a call center, so when one person has a breakdown, it's hugely disruptive to the entire operation.

Net result of the situation I'm thinking of: the guy had to be fired, and for an afternoon, everybody was a little worried about going home because the guy in question started wandering around the parking lot, screaming at air.

You don't have to have an actual center to have people with jobs answering telephones though. A lot of those are turning into work-from-home deals.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 09, 2014, 08:55:16 AM
You don't have to have an actual center to have people with jobs answering telephones though. A lot of those are turning into work-from-home deals.

Sales calls, yeah.  Customer service call centers are with companies that are a bit paranoid about protecting "company information," though, so they prefer to keep call centers so that company information can stay on their own intranets.

Quote from: Martinus on November 09, 2014, 06:04:46 AMActually, a job where you have to deal directly with customers on a constant basis is probably one that is least suitable for schizoprenics. But any job where you work, broadly, alone; can work from home; and requires creativity and expertise, could work. Of course as with most diseases there are people with more mild or more severe cases of it, so YMMV.

like your environmental law attorney, i know an attorney with paranoid schizophrenia who worked at one time for the FDIC. same result re: deterioration. if it can be identified early on, there's a better chance to convince the person to consent to treatment. if left untreated, continued deterioration that cripples professional careers is bound to happen. if it reaches the point where the person is simply unwilling to ever consent to treatment, and that person mostly keeps a normal life, then forcing involuntary treatment probably isn't warranted. the person isn't a danger to himself or others.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 09, 2014, 08:20:44 AMNope.  Speaking from firsthand experience, a call center gig is not a good gig for a schizophrenic.  There's a lot less isolation between workers in a call center, so when one person has a breakdown, it's hugely disruptive to the entire operation.

speaking from first-hand experience, a call center is very possible for a schizophrenic. a schizophrenic who breaks down resulting in out of control screaming and ranting doesn't sound very high functioning.

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 09, 2014, 08:41:30 AMI don't know. I mean it's quite difficult to section someone here, but it used to be easier and perhaps a little more prone to mistake/abuse. That it can proceed without a doctor seeing him and, from what I can see, the medical evidence initially coming from an involved party (his sister(-in-law?)) is a bit dubious. It makes me wonder a little about the Portuguese system.

there are two hospitals involved, right? hospital B says ubik was diagnosed by hospital A, so hospital B relied on hospital A. and hospital A has not released any comments about the initial seizure/diagnosis. we don't know exactly what happened. given the unknowns, i'm willing to place more faith in the portuguese psychiatric system than assume it's incompetent and rely on the allegations of a suspected schizophrenic. that's what i was getting at in my earlier post.

The only high functioning schizophrenics are ones who take medication or the illness hasn't fully set in.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 12:40:51 PM
speaking from first-hand experience, a call center is very possible for a schizophrenic. a schizophrenic who breaks down resulting in out of control screaming and ranting doesn't sound very high functioning.

Dealing with the general public on a constant basis isn't easy even for many people without psychiatric problems;  I can't really believe that the stress involved could be a good thing for anyone who already has mental health issues.  And a call center might be even worse than, say, doing sales cold calls, because in a call center by definition you're dealing with people who have complaints.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 01:54:54 PM
The only high functioning schizophrenics are ones who take medication or the illness hasn't fully set in.

there are different levels of any mental condition. look at OCD, bipolar disorder, and autism, for example. there are high functioning schizophrenics whose schizophrenia has fully set in and who don't take medication. not every unmedicated schizophrenic is rocking back and forth blabbering to himself.

Quote from: DPSDealing with the general public on a constant basis isn't easy even for many people without psychiatric problems;  I can't really believe that the stress involved could be a good thing for anyone who already has mental health issues.  And a call center might be even worse than, say, doing sales cold calls, because in a call center by definition you're dealing with people who have complaints.

people handle stress differently regardless of any mental condition. a highly stressful day for one schizophrenic could lead to ranting and raving at work, but for another schizophrenic it could mean he finds more conspiratorial connections that day. depending on the severity of schizophrenia, he might break or merely bend.

Yeah, that's not true.  For instance there is no such thing as high functioning catatonia.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 03:15:15 PM
Yeah, that's not true.  For instance there is no such thing as high functioning catatonia.

yes there is. if a schizophrenic (or autistic, or whatever) patient is found to show signs of catatonia, the catatonic symptoms may be less severe in one patient than another. catatonia is not always unresponsive immobilization. a schizophrenic with high functioning catatonia may (or may not) be employable, i don't know. but he very well could move about his home.

not every mental condition is the exact same. not every symptom has the exact same level of severity. some specific symptoms may have the same level of severity, but that doesn't mean they all do. you should know better than most here. not every schizoaffective person is the same. there are people who have the same types of symptoms as you, only those symptoms are more severe. others may have less severe symptoms. it's a spectrum, as with many (if not all) mental conditions.

Yeah, but we are talking about paranoid schizophrenia not "any schizoaffective disorder".  But you are right about one thing, you don't know.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
Yeah, but we are talking about paranoid schizophrenia not "any schizoaffective disorder".  But you are right about one thing, you don't know.

do you really believe every case of paranoid schizophrenia is the same? you mentioned hallucinations earlier. are you aware not every case of paranoid schizophrenia involves hallucinations? that's a hollywood myth. and, i'm pretty familiar with paranoid schizophrenia.

Remember, just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.

I suffer from Sexlexia.

No different than Edlexia.

Way to fuck up the Futurama bit there, CountDeAspie.

I don't watch Simpsons rip-offs.

But hypnotoad demands it! :o

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20130519180509%2Fsims%2Fimages%2F0%2F0b%2FHypnotoad.gif&hash=5735c6204f97f542b66c89318643ab1143537153)

Don't bother. He's sewing dresses for his cat.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com%2Fbphoto%2FbdvvgljlNmrDKDK6Iq34Mw%2Fl.jpg&hash=3cd6b071cf3445bfbb37d7c302ab2263046da21b)

Free Ubik!

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 04:50:02 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
Yeah, but we are talking about paranoid schizophrenia not "any schizoaffective disorder".  But you are right about one thing, you don't know.

do you really believe every case of paranoid schizophrenia is the same? you mentioned hallucinations earlier. are you aware not every case of paranoid schizophrenia involves hallucinations? that's a hollywood myth. and, i'm pretty familiar with paranoid schizophrenia.

Yes, but there is always an element of psychosis which is a deal breaker for a job.  People who can't accurately perceive reality is a huge problem.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 09, 2014, 05:27:07 PM
Remember, just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.

wasn't referring to me.  :P

Quote from: RazgovoryYes, but there is always an element of psychosis which is a deal breaker for a job.  People who can't accurately perceive reality is a huge problem.

delusional thinking/inaccurate perception of reality doesn't always lead to public outbursts. people with mental conditions can hide their thoughts around strangers, especially those with milder symptoms.

Quote from: Jaron on November 09, 2014, 07:08:22 PM
Free Ubik!

With purchase of second Ubik of equal value!

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 09:52:47 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 09, 2014, 05:27:07 PM
Remember, just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.

wasn't referring to me.  :P

Quote from: RazgovoryYes, but there is always an element of psychosis which is a deal breaker for a job.  People who can't accurately perceive reality is a huge problem.

delusional thinking/inaccurate perception of reality doesn't always lead to public outbursts. people with mental conditions can hide their thoughts around strangers, especially those with milder symptoms.

Outburts aren't really the problem.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and what's in your head is the problem.  I have no idea why you are pushing this, but you are sorta out of your depth here.

It's crazy what paranoid schizophrenics can make themselves believe is true. The human mind is a really powerful tool with incredible powers of self-destruction.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 11:11:26 PMOutburts aren't really the problem.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and what's in your head is the problem.  I have no idea why you are pushing this, but you are sorta out of your depth here.

outbursts or some public display is exactly the issue in contention, raz, because you're saying an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic simply cannot maintain steady employment -- no exceptions. employers and coworkers aren't mind-readers, so whether an employee has delusions doesn't matter if that person manages to keep those delusions to himself.

From what I've seen they rarely can keep the delusions to themselves. Especially if unmedicated.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 09, 2014, 11:51:56 PM
From what I've seen they rarely can keep the delusions to themselves. Especially if unmedicated.

to friends and family, sure. to strangers? people they don't have any desire to interact with? do you randomly discuss politics or personal topics with someone you meet on the street? no, and not all paranoid schizophrenics rant about conspiracies with everyone they come across. some do, maybe even many do, but not every single paranoid schizophrenic.

But we're talking about actual crazy people here. From what I can tell from this situation, Ubik is a bit eccentric and his family are a bunch of complete jerks who don't get him. It's shameful what was done to him.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 10, 2014, 12:07:13 AM
But we're talking about actual crazy people here. From what I can tell from this situation, Ubik is a bit eccentric and his family are a bunch of complete jerks who don't get him. It's shameful what was done to him.

there's different levels of crazy. as to ubik's situation, it's too difficult to tell without more information from unbiased sources, IMO.

20 bucks says he's nuts.

I lean towards that direction, too, considering his antics with P'dox ("The engine is mine, all mine! And they stole EU4 concepts from me!").

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 10, 2014, 01:38:42 AM
20 bucks says he's nuts.

with what little we have?? $50 he's nuts :D

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 10, 2014, 01:38:42 AM
20 bucks says he's nuts.

That's also 20 bucks that Portugal works. Bold :mellow:

Well, this is a reply from the hospital:

http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/necessidade-de-tratamento-foi-reconhecida-por-sete-psiquiatras-1675138 (http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/necessidade-de-tratamento-foi-reconhecida-por-sete-psiquiatras-1675138)

"Need for treatment was recognized by seven psychiatrists"

"The patient was only internet compulsively after it was concluded by a clinial psychiatrical evaluation that a serious psychic disturbance existed, an absence of conscience of the pathology, refusal of treatment and significant risks in the absence of treatment, being the interment the only way to ensure the proper treatment", says a note by the Psychiatrical and Mental Healht Department of the Egas Moniz Hospital that answers the PUBLICO's questions. It is underlined that, "due to deonthological reasons, many of the informations that more easily show that the Mental Health Act was abided by cannot be said".

In the anwer it is noted that the decision to comulsively commit Carlos Rodrigues [ubik] was made with basis on the psychiatrical clinical evaluation made at the urgency services at São José Hospital, having this one being validated in the following day by the court, and only then was the patient transferred to the Egas Moniz Hospital.

"After the transfer, three ohter pscychiatrical clinical evaluations were made, all by different doctors than the one that ordered the compulsive internment at São José, having the last one been made by a doctor that did not belong to Egas Moniz". "None of these evaluations placed any doubt on the conclusions of the initial clinical evaluation". That means that the "existance of the disease and the need for treatment was recognized by at least seven psychiatrists and a high number of other professionals of mental health of different institutions", says the text, which is signed by the Department head, Caldas de Almeida, by the director of the Service for Adults, Luís Saldanha, and by the Interment Head, Bernardo Corrêa.

The hospital replies that "the relatives did exactly that which a family can and should do when one of its members shows signs of a grave psychiatrical disease and refuses any treatment for not having conscience of the disease: ask for the guidance and the support of a doctor, and appeal, if needs be, to the health authorities".

It is underlined that the doctor in question, who is an intern and works at Egas Moniz, had "the care the underscore that its information was based on the information by relatives and to limit itself to consider that, on basis of the data to which it had access to, it seemed important to her to ensure a psychiatrical observation of the patient to evaluate an eventual need for interment. This is what a doctor has the duty to do, and can legally do in Portugal, when there are strong signs of a serious psychiatrical disease and of risks to oneself or others".

Regarding the malpractice accusations and the violation of the patients rights during the period during which he was interned, "as soon as the clinical conditions allowed for it, the therapeutical team proposed for him to be moved to a compulsive treatment regime in the community (which was expressely accepted by the patient), having the patient being released from the hospital and started being accompanied in an ambulatory way.

The doctors classify as a "comple fantasy" the acusations of the lawyer of Carlos Rodrigues, when he claims that his client was comulsively committed, not because he suffered from a psyciatrical disturbance, but rather because there was "a vast conspiracy envolving the patient's relatives, the public health authorities and a large number of psychiatrists of two Lisbon hospitals".

Here in Canada, it is virtually impossible to get someone committed - or at least it was 20 years ago, the last time I actually saw someone attempt it.

Anecdotally, what would happen was that the guy in question would act out in obviously mad ways (such as talking loudly about his delusions and punching the air while carrying a large kitchen knife stuck in his pants - saw that myself), the cops would be summoned, they would haul him off, he would be forced to take his meds and sent back - relatively sane but pissed off - a couple of days later. Rinse and repeat, presumably until he actually harms someone.

(The guys I knew "solved" this problem by nailing the connecting door to his basement apartment shut while they looked for another place to live, then moved out - leaving the elderly landlord to deal with it).

Quote from: LaCroix on November 09, 2014, 11:46:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2014, 11:11:26 PMOutburts aren't really the problem.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and what's in your head is the problem.  I have no idea why you are pushing this, but you are sorta out of your depth here.

outbursts or some public display is exactly the issue in contention, raz, because you're saying an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic simply cannot maintain steady employment -- no exceptions. employers and coworkers aren't mind-readers, so whether an employee has delusions doesn't matter if that person manages to keep those delusions to himself.

The schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent. 

Quote from: grumbler on November 10, 2014, 01:19:09 PM
Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

:lol:

I know very little about the mental health industry in my own country, much less Portugal's; and IF he was wrongly interred for whatever reason, that would be terrible.

However, I followed the fall of his Magna Mundi game closer than I should have and my impression at the time was that he was crazier than a shithouse rat.  I have not seen anything since that would change my mind.

Quote from: grumbler on November 10, 2014, 01:19:09 PMThe schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

well, a paranoid schizophrenic's distorted reality doesn't necessarily mean everything is distorted. the person may think people are harmful and are out to get him, but that doesn't mean everything else will be distorted. he could still think two plus two equals four or be able to go through a call center checklist with a caller. it depends on the paranoid schizophrenic and the severity of his condition, but it's still possible.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 10, 2014, 03:55:44 PM

Quote from: grumbler on November 10, 2014, 01:19:09 PMThe schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

well, a paranoid schizophrenic's distorted reality doesn't necessarily mean everything is distorted. the person may think people are harmful and are out to get him, but that doesn't mean everything else will be distorted. he could still think two plus two equals four or be able to go through a call center checklist with a caller. it depends on the paranoid schizophrenic and the severity of his condition, but it's still possible.

Yeah, you seem to think this is just a quirk in the personality like believing the moon landing was a Hoax.  A person who is suffering from schizophrenia doesn't attempt to hide their psychosis, anymore then you would try to hide the fact that Barak Obama is President of the United States.  These psychosis tend to be utterly bizarre like the belief that the vacuum cleaners at the Post office are turning people's knees to jelly so it doesn't take long before figuring this out.  Even when they don't reveal their psychosis you can tell something is wrong very quickly.  Their speech is strange.  Sometimes it's just nonsense, but you typically notice things like an odd cadence, strange vocabulary, repeated phrases. jumping from topic to topic, emotions shown at wrong times, and illogical connections.

I have no idea what you base your impressions on, beyond not wanting to grant the authority to force treatment on people who can't make that choice for themselves.

Here's an example of the type of speech I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbfd_OkLoU  Now, do you really think this guy could be working at a call center?

Quote from: Razgovory on November 10, 2014, 04:31:38 PM
Yeah, you seem to think this is just a quirk in the personality like believing the moon landing was a Hoax.  A person who is suffering from schizophrenia doesn't attempt to hide their psychosis, anymore then you would try to hide the fact that Barak Obama is President of the United States.  These psychosis tend to be utterly bizarre like the belief that the vacuum cleaners at the Post office are turning people's knees to jelly so it doesn't take long before figuring this out.  Even when they don't reveal their psychosis you can tell something is wrong very quickly.  Their speech is strange.  Sometimes it's just nonsense, but you typically notice things like an odd cadence, strange vocabulary, repeated phrases. jumping from topic to topic, emotions shown at wrong times, and illogical connections.

I have no idea what you base your impressions on, beyond not wanting to grant the authority to force treatment on people who can't make that choice for themselves.

Here's an example of the type of speech I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbfd_OkLoU  Now, do you really think this guy could be working at a call center?

I don't think that's entirely right.  People with psychosis can have some insight (can, not necessarily do).

I was dealing with a lady in court the other day, charged with assaulting a cop.  On the night she was charged she was yelling delusional things such as "I am Jesus Christ, all of Canada exists because of me".

She took the stand.  She did not deny saying those things, but she did attempt to gloss over them by saying "well that's just my own personal religious beliefs". :lol:

The mental health worker felt that this meant she probably had some partial insight into her condition, at least to the point where she knew it was a bad idea to talk about her delusions to other people.

Maybe it's when facing legal penalty, but I've never seen in Schizophrenia.

They do have the tendency to have sudden breakdowns and there's no guarantee that won't happen in a court or at a job. Totally random.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 10, 2014, 04:48:55 PM
They do have the tendency to have sudden breakdowns and there's no guarantee that won't happen in a court or at a job. Totally random.

It's not totally random.  It's not even mostly random.  They tend to go in cycles.

I have never seen one on a cycle. Uni, bi, tri, or motor.  Not once.

Quote from: Barrister on November 10, 2014, 04:42:29 PM
I was dealing with a lady in court the other day, charged with assaulting a cop.  On the night she was charged she was yelling delusional things such as "I am Jesus Christ, all of Canada exists because of me".

Useful illustration of the fallacy of Pascal's Wager.

Please don't do that.  You'll attract Vikings.

Quote from: LaCroix on November 10, 2014, 12:03:41 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 09, 2014, 11:51:56 PM
From what I've seen they rarely can keep the delusions to themselves. Especially if unmedicated.

to friends and family, sure. to strangers? people they don't have any desire to interact with? do you randomly discuss politics or personal topics with someone you meet on the street? no, and not all paranoid schizophrenics rant about conspiracies with everyone they come across. some do, maybe even many do, but not every single paranoid schizophrenic.

But that's the problem--if you have a job where you deal directly with the general public, you have to interact with people you would otherwise have no desire to talk to.   And some of those people will want to tell you all about their political positions.  Or there religious beliefs.  Or how their mother-in-law is a complete bitch.  Or brag about how well their grandchildren are doing in school.  Or tell you how you should be ashamed that the company you work for doesn't offer a particular service or product, or that it's you fault they happened to be sold out.  Or any other topic under the sun.  That can get tough after a while even on someone who doesn't have any mental health issues to start with.

Quote from: Razgovory on November 10, 2014, 04:31:38 PMYeah, you seem to think this is just a quirk in the personality like believing the moon landing was a Hoax.  A person who is suffering from schizophrenia doesn't attempt to hide their psychosis, anymore then you would try to hide the fact that Barak Obama is President of the United States.  These psychosis tend to be utterly bizarre like the belief that the vacuum cleaners at the Post office are turning people's knees to jelly so it doesn't take long before figuring this out.  Even when they don't reveal their psychosis you can tell something is wrong very quickly.  Their speech is strange.  Sometimes it's just nonsense, but you typically notice things like an odd cadence, strange vocabulary, repeated phrases. jumping from topic to topic, emotions shown at wrong times, and illogical connections.

I have no idea what you base your impressions on, beyond not wanting to grant the authority to force treatment on people who can't make that choice for themselves.

Here's an example of the type of speech I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbfd_OkLoU  Now, do you really think this guy could be working at a call center?

raz, it became very clear earlier in the discussion that you don't know what you're talking about. the moment you said schizophrenia had no spectrum of mild and severe cases, i suspected you were basing your perception of paranoid schizophrenics from those you've met at a mental institution or the cases you may have read about in some book or article. when you want to truly understand a mental condition, you don't look at the extreme cases. this goes for anything in life.

we're not talking about the extreme cases. we're talking about the minor cases. the cases you said could not exist because paranoid schizophrenia is not a spectrum. you've claimed that a paranoid schizophrenic cannot work steady employment because they're just all nuts with all sorts of delusions. except, not every paranoid schizophrenic is so nuts they're screaming "i'm jesus" at every moment of their existence.

my mother is a diagnosed, unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic and doesn't believe she's a paranoid schizophrenic. she's almost sixty -- her schizophrenia is deeply entrenched. she has never been fired from a job. when i was younger, she often quit jobs because she thought her employers were out to harm her. to this day, i still hear the same spiel every time i interact with her for more than five minutes. yet, she's been working full time at a call center for roughly seven years. she consistently performs higher than most in her department, and i've seen actual evidence of this. while she thinks her coworkers are bad people who are out to get her, she doesn't mention it to her supervisors or to others. she trusts this employer and believes management will eventually root out the the bad ones.

my mother doesn't form delusions with callers, because she is able to focus on her duties and provide assistance. she doesn't rant and rave at work. when i still lived at home, a stressful day merely meant she ranted to me in private more than she would otherwise. that's it. she's conditioned herself to keep her delusions quiet, because she knows people won't believe her -- even if she knows it's true. oh, and she doesn't have the odd speech pattern in your video. as your video says, odd speech patterns is a symptom that "may be present."

as barrister suggested, paranoid schizophrenics aren't some caricature from a hollywood flick who all act in one way. they're very human. my mother left my father and took me to bahrain when i was seven, because she wanted to go to a country where the government chopped off the hands of thieves. she has never told me this and still skirts the subject to this day. her avoidance is not out of fear of legal repercussions. schizophrenics, just like the rest of us, have a survival instinct that kicks in where necessary. those with severe schizophrenia are less likely to employ self-control, just as those with severe bipolar or autism are less likely to employ restraint with their own particular issues.

i told you this because i want you to know just how wrong you are. as you said, "i've never seen in schizophrenia." i assume you've based your impression of schizophrenics on extreme cases you've witnessed first-hand and have applied this impression to all schizophrenics that will ever exist. take a look at the south korea-irish thread. it's wrong there as it's wrong here.

I think you misunderstand the term spectrum.  It's not a matter of severity but of subtypes.  I'm sorry that your mother is ill with this and it's good she has a family to keep her stable, but a lot don't.  They are just abandoned and die in the street.  Also I don't think Paranoid schizophrenia is a valid diagnosis anymore.