So, this weekend, I got to watch Alcibades be sworn in as a Second Lieutenant in the US Army. It involved, as all things military do, a lot of pomp, circumstance, and rules. It was fun watching all of it go on, but as a civilian, it kind of left me confused on some of the protocol.
Alci told me that civilians don't salute officers, but who does? I mean, do retired military? Do those who opted out after five years? Does a Naval Seaman salute an Army Lieutenant? How does all of that work? And how do civilians show deference to an officer if they so choose to do so?
Also, there was a silver dollar given to the first person to salute the officers. Alci chose the person to whom he gave his coin, as did the other officers. How is that decided? At what point did it become "choose your person" from "the first person to do it"?
I'd ask Alci, but he and his not-fiance left yesterday, and this is a bit much to try to ask in texts. :P
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they? Dunno about retired-- I think that's optional.
But across branches, enlisted men (and lower-ranked officers) are supposed to show military courtesy (salute) to officers.
When you get your 2LT bars, you choose who gives you your first salute-- it's considered an honor. Often it's an NCO who is a family member or was a mentor. A buddy of mine had his dad who was a retired Sergeant Major give him his first salute.
Maybe I'm just being Swedish but Americans saluting when not wearing a hat looks totally weird.
Swedes :rolleyes:
swedish rifle 4 sale dropped once never fired full of ball bearings lololol
Just make sure he doesn't get posted to Sicily.
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 10:24:04 AM
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they?
There have been societies where that was expected/required, but historically we seem to have been enemies with them. :cool:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 12:32:09 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 23, 2013, 11:07:44 AM
Just make sure he doesn't get posted to Sicily.
I don't get it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition
QuoteAlcibiades began the conflict as one of the Athenian commanders, but was recalled to Athens to face trial and subsequently defected to Sparta.
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 10:24:04 AM
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they?
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
If I remember right from my Navy days, sailors (marines also?) don't salute while in-doors but other services do.
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 10:24:04 AM
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they?
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
How do you show respect to people when you want to? Try doing the same when meeting officers. Also, what's the proper respect a civilian should show an officer?
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:05 PM
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
I would suggest saying "hey GI, me love you long time."
:lol:
I now have 2 Live Crew stuck in my head. THANKS.
Quote from: KRonn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
If I remember right from my Navy days, sailors (marines also?) don't salute while in-doors but other services do.
Yeah, that came up, too. They had to do the dollar-salute ceremony outside after the big ceremony thingie was done.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 02:28:34 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:05 PM
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
I would suggest saying "hey GI, me love you long time."
:yucky:
Not to Alci! He's like a little brother!
You said you wanted to show respect. :mellow:
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:32:33 PM
Not to Alci! He's like a little brother!
Hey may have a girlfriend here, but he does not have girlfriend Vietnam. :yes:
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 10:24:04 AM
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they?
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
Buy him a drink. Shake his hand. Give him a hug. Whatever works best for you.
Civilians are outside the strictures of military protocol. You can salute or do anything else you want. Someone who says you "shouldn't" is incorrect, a civilian can do whatever they want in that regard. The President for example chooses to salute lots of members of the armed forces, not even limited to just officers. But since you aren't part of military protocol, there is certainly no "Miss Manners" or legal or ethical requirement to salute members of the military.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 23, 2013, 02:57:47 PM
Civilians are outside the strictures of military protocol. You can salute or do anything else you want. Someone who says you "shouldn't" is incorrect, a civilian can do whatever they want in that regard. The President for example chooses to salute lots of members of the armed forces, not even limited to just officers. But since you aren't part of military protocol, there is certainly no "Miss Manners" or legal or ethical requirement to salute members of the military.
Civilians operate under civilian etiquette. Saluting people isn't normal, at least not in Sweden.
Considering Swedish men try to breast feed their children I'm not sure I'd go by what is considered "normal" in Sweden. But normal polite society etiquette is pretty frangible, at least in the States.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 23, 2013, 03:30:55 PM
Considering Swedish men try to breast feed their children I'm not sure I'd go by what is considered "normal" in Sweden. But normal polite society etiquette is pretty frangible, at least in the States.
Sweden was a polite society when Americans were naked savages.
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 03:50:18 PM
Sweden was a polite society when Americans were naked savages.
Britain has always been more civilized than Scandinavia. :bowler:
I'm guessing the silver dollar was a challenge coin.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 04:58:13 PM
I'm guessing the silver dollar was a challenge coin.
The guy who explained it at the ceremony said that it's believed to derive from the dollar a month a newly minted officer was given to pay his servant, usually a cadet. Pay the dollar, be given his first salute.
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 03:50:18 PMSweden was a polite society when Americans were naked savages.
Please, Sweden wasn't civilized until the 1800s. We've had white people in America since the 1600s.
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 03:05:04 PM
Saluting people isn't normal, at least not in Sweden.
It's not normal here, unless you're some kid trying to be cute.
Well, I was actually kind of worried that a civilian saluting someone could be construed as rude. As in, if I had saluted Alci after his commission ceremony, would the soldiers in the room have been insulted, amused, or apathetic?
They would have gotten boners.
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Saluting varies more than you'd think across services. In the Naval services, one doesn't salute when uncovered (i.e. not wearing uniform headgear) nor when indoors. I don't know about the other services, but, in the Navy, you salute someone in the same organization as you (or someone you are working with repeatedly in a given day) only the first time you meet them in a given day, or when reporting something to them officially. A report that is given with a salute becomes an official report. In the Naval services, only, you can salute left-handed if one cannot use the right hand (that comes from small boat experiences where, if on the right side of the boat in heavy seas, you are hanging on with the right hand). If your right arm is broken, for instance, you salute left-handed.
The silver dollar goes to the first person who salutes you, not the first person you salute. In the Navy, that silver dollar is considered a good luck piece and isn't spent, but kept. You generally pick one of your training NCOs to be the first to salute you.
A civilian saluting would have been considered gauche. The civilian equivalent to the salute is to hold one's hand (or hat, if one is wearing one) over the heart.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 23, 2013, 05:15:51 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 03:50:18 PMSweden was a polite society when Americans were naked savages.
Please, Sweden wasn't civilized until the 1800s. We've had white people in America since the 1600s.
I'm talking about the 1960s. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yeah, and Hans will be able to fire him.
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 05:55:11 PMI'm talking about the 1960s. I have no idea what you are talking about.
The 1800s and 1600s, English, can you read it motherfucker?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 23, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 05:55:11 PMI'm talking about the 1960s. I have no idea what you are talking about.
The 1800s and 1600s, English, can you read it motherfucker?
:hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on December 23, 2013, 05:54:48 PM
The silver dollar goes to the first person who salutes you, not the first person you salute. In the Navy, that silver dollar is considered a good luck piece and isn't spent, but kept. You generally pick one of your training NCOs to be the first to salute you.
I still have the silver dollar some shiny new Ensign gave me when I was a shiny new enlisted guy only a couple weeks out of boot camp. I was headed back to the Aircrew barracks after getting a haircut and just happened to be walking by right after they graduated. I saluted him like normal, then became very alarmed when he started walking right toward me immediately after. I'm standing there thinking wtf did I do wrong when he shook my hand and gave me a silver dollar. :lol: "Oh....uh....oh...congratulations sir."
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on December 23, 2013, 06:45:40 PM
I still have the silver dollar some shiny new Ensign gave me when I was a shiny new enlisted guy only a couple weeks out of boot camp. I was headed back to the Aircrew barracks after getting a haircut and just happened to be walking by right after they graduated. I saluted him like normal, then became very alarmed when he started walking right toward me immediately after. I'm standing there thinking wtf did I do wrong when he shook my hand and gave me a silver dollar. :lol: "Oh....uh....oh...congratulations sir."
Great story, and it didn't even start "this is no shit..."
Quote from: merithyn on December 23, 2013, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 10:24:04 AM
Civilians just don't need to salute anyone. Why would they?
How does a civilian show the proper respect for an officer, then? I mean, assuming that they wanted to.
Presumably in the same manner that civilian would wish to show proper respect for any other person.
Yeah, gotta agree with grumbler.
Saluting someone in the military as a civilian, unless there is some extenuating circumstances, would be seen as mostly just kind of weird and uncouth. It isn't strictly wrong, just not really appropriate. A salute is a military thing.
If you want to show someone in the military respect, a nice handshake and "thanks for your service" is the way to go, IMO.
What if it's a military type who is about to rock?
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 07:51:09 PM
What if it's a military type who is about to rock?
:lol:
As a Kentucky Colronel, I demand Cal salute me.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 23, 2013, 08:00:50 PM
As a Kentucky Colronel, I demand Cal salute me.
I'm sure he has a salute in mind for you.
Boner is getting more Frenchified every day.
Quote from: grumbler on December 23, 2013, 05:54:48 PM
Saluting varies more than you'd think across services. In the Naval services, one doesn't salute when uncovered (i.e. not wearing uniform headgear) nor when indoors. I don't know about the other services, but, in the Navy, you salute someone in the same organization as you (or someone you are working with repeatedly in a given day) only the first time you meet them in a given day, or when reporting something to them officially. A report that is given with a salute becomes an official report. In the Naval services, only, you can salute left-handed if one cannot use the right hand (that comes from small boat experiences where, if on the right side of the boat in heavy seas, you are hanging on with the right hand). If your right arm is broken, for instance, you salute left-handed.
I know the indoor salute thing applies to Marines, too. Does the left-handed salute?
Quote
A civilian saluting would have been considered gauche. The civilian equivalent to the salute is to hold one's hand (or hat, if one is wearing one) over the heart.
Thank you. That's what I was asking. I didn't salute him because I could see it being considered... yeah, gauche is the right word for it. Certainly inappropriate.
USAF salutes indoors only when officially reporting to the CC, and during award ceremonies (shake, take, salute)...again to the CC. Never with the left hand. If your hands are full, a polite verbal greeting.
Saluting with the left hand is gauche.
:pinch:
:frusty:
Quote from: Berkut on December 23, 2013, 07:48:16 PM
Yeah, gotta agree with grumbler.
Saluting someone in the military as a civilian, unless there is some extenuating circumstances, would be seen as mostly just kind of weird and uncouth. It isn't strictly wrong, just not really appropriate. A salute is a military thing.
If you want to show someone in the military respect, a nice handshake and "thanks for your service" is the way to go, IMO.
Your question makes a lot more sense now Meri :P
Berkut hit it right on the head here, though. If you had I wouldn't have really known what to do, especially with so many of the higher rank around. I don't think I would have saluted you back and that might have been awkward :P
Quote from: Alcibiades on December 24, 2013, 05:08:22 PM
If you had I wouldn't have really known what to do, especially with so many of the higher rank around.
Oh man, suddenly there is a really good reason to do it! Making a brand new second looie feel awkward in front of higher ranking officers? :P
Congrats Alci!
Quote from: Alcibiades on December 24, 2013, 05:08:22 PM
Your question makes a lot more sense now Meri :P
Berkut hit it right on the head here, though. If you had I wouldn't have really known what to do, especially with so many of the higher rank around. I don't think I would have saluted you back and that might have been awkward :P
Well, there's a reason that I didn't do it. I figured it was most appropriate not to. :P I would have felt silly, and you would have felt awkward. But a hug in that uniform with all those bars/medals/stripes would have been weird, too, so you got an "atta boy" from me, instead.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Except I have more real combat time than you :console:
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Would it be awkward at a Languish meet? I mean, is it uncomfortable for officers and enlisted to meet in a private capacity and have beers together?
This being the military I'm sure there's some sort of etiquette on this. :P
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2014, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Would it be awkward at a Languish meet? I mean, is it uncomfortable for officers and enlisted to meet in a private capacity and have beers together?
This being the military I'm sure there's some sort of etiquette on this. :P
It's not as serious of an issue if they aren't in your chain of command. But yeah, it's not favorably looked upon.
I can't be seen associating with
those people. :bowler:
:P
Quote from: Alcibiades on January 20, 2014, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Except I have more real combat time than you :console:
Sure. If you count your time in deployments using dog years.
Not even then. Don't think so.
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:20:48 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on January 20, 2014, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: Siege on January 20, 2014, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Does it mean that Siege will have to salute Alci now?
Yes. Also die for him when he does something stupid.
Which he will.
Except I have more real combat time than you :console:
Sure. If you count your time in deployments using dog years.
Not even then. Don't think so.
Oh is a time on deployment combat time now? Guess you got your CIB a lot easier than I had previously thought. :lol:
I shall call him cherry and he shall be mine.
The Languish platoon would make a hilarious sitcom. :D
I could be the quartermaster who gets killed early on. We know that Fireflade and BB wouldn't last long. The minute someone in a war movie talks about their girl and kid you know they're seconds away from some sort of shocking death.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 20, 2014, 06:21:15 PM
I could be the quartermaster who gets killed early on. We know that Fireflade and BB wouldn't last long. The minute someone in a war movie talks about their girl and kid you know they're seconds away from some sort of shocking death.
I was thinking more along the lines of one made up of our actual real-life soldiers. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on January 20, 2014, 06:16:24 PM
The Languish platoon would make a hilarious sitcom. :D
As goofy as we all are, it'd be like early MASH. Except we've got way too many Klingers.
I've only worn a dress once.
Multiple times for me. I'm smashing in a sundress and flats.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 20, 2014, 08:55:21 PM
Multiple times for me. I'm smashing in a sundress and flats.
Stilettos like a Palmer Girl or GTFO. :angry:
MAH FEETS HURTS