Languish.org

General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 02:20:04 PM

Title: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 02:20:04 PM
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/03/01/get-your-ramen-with-a-side-of-boobs-at-tokyo-bar/
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
On a different note, apparently having hamburgers with ramen as the bun is all the rage right now.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2013, 02:31:24 PM
QuoteSorry, we probably should have said this sooner, but the actual name of the bar is Ramen Bar/Snack Izakaya

But then you wouldn't have a hook for your story about going to some restaurant where the owner had big tits.  :lol:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
SFW?
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
SFW?

All of the images were broken for me.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: crazy canuck on August 19, 2013, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
SFW?

A lot less than you might see if you went to an Earl's Milestones...
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 02:35:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
SFW?

Depending on your work, but if you can look at, say, a "here's a celebrity in a dress that shows off her cleavage" then you should be able to look at this ok.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Lettow77 on August 19, 2013, 03:56:50 PM
This is a non-article that relies on the sensationalism that prepares a reader to believe wacky, crazy Japan has done it again with something unbelievable and strange.

It is, in fact, a hussy running a small izakaya.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 03:58:31 PM
There's nothing wacky or crazy about this :huh:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: The Brain on August 19, 2013, 03:58:53 PM
There is now.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: PRC on August 19, 2013, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
On a different note, apparently having hamburgers with ramen as the bun is all the rage right now.

Saw that on the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/gallery/2013/aug/14/ramen-burger-super-unhealthy-fast-food-in-pictures

Looks fucking gross. 
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Tonitrus on August 19, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
Japan has discovered Breastaurants.

No scribes allowed.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Lettow77 on August 19, 2013, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 03:58:31 PM
There's nothing wacky or crazy about this :huh:

Precisely, but the title the article sells itself on encourages you to assume there is. There is nothing interesting in the content itself; it isn't clear why the article exists beyond an excuse for the writer to visit the place. That could have perhaps been -his- motivation, but what was yours in sharing it?
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 04:03:25 PM
Quote from: PRC on August 19, 2013, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
On a different note, apparently having hamburgers with ramen as the bun is all the rage right now.

Saw that on the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/gallery/2013/aug/14/ramen-burger-super-unhealthy-fast-food-in-pictures

Looks fucking gross. 

I still really want deep fried coke. :blush:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 04:04:12 PM
Is the man in those photos, drunk?
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:11:18 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 19, 2013, 04:03:15 PMPrecisely, but the title the article sells itself on encourages you to assume there is. There is nothing interesting in the content itself; it isn't clear why the article exists beyond an excuse for the writer to visit the place. That could have perhaps been -his- motivation, but what was yours in sharing it?

I like boobs! :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Caliga on August 19, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:11:18 PM
I like boobs! :)
:cool:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Lettow77 on August 19, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
Understandable; why not post a thread about breasts then, with a gallery of images? If by chance it was this woman in particular, her gravure work would probably be a better source than this article.

Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:15:43 PM
Gotta go with Stinky on this one.  The link bills itself as boob ramen but it's really about a ramen shop owner who happens to have boobs.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:15:53 PM
Feel free to post such articles if that tickles your fancy :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:15:43 PM
Gotta go with Stinky on this one.  The link bills itself as boob ramen but it's really about a ramen shop owner who happens to have boobs.

I don't give a fuck :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
I don't give a fuck :)

I don't particularly give a fuck that you don't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
I don't give a fuck :)

I don't particularly give a fuck that you don't give a fuck.

:lol:

Well then, you and your friend can have a nice little conversation about how you agree with each other.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Caliga on August 19, 2013, 04:24:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
I don't particularly give a fuck that you don't give a fuck.
I really don't give a fuck that you don't particularly give a fuck that he doesn't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
You know I rather like the makeshift wooden interior of the place, functional but characterful with little or no high-tech.  :cool:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:31:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
You know I rather like the makeshift wooden interior of the place, functional but characterful with or no high-tech.  :cool:

Lots of places in Japan with that aesthetic.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:24:07 PM
:lol:

Well then, you and your friend can have a nice little conversation about how you agree with each other.

While you can have a pleasant tete-a-tete with yourself about how you agree with yourself.

You have really turned into a crank in the last couple months Yake.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:34:42 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:31:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
You know I rather like the makeshift wooden interior of the place, functional but characterful with or no high-tech.  :cool:

Lots of places in Japan with that aesthetic.

Yeah, Britain seems to suffer from this really badly, pubs and eateries often broadly the same in function and interior. 
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:36:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:24:07 PM
:lol:

Well then, you and your friend can have a nice little conversation about how you agree with each other.

While you can have a pleasant tete-a-tete with yourself about how you agree with yourself.

You have really turned into a crank in the last couple months Yake.

Then he'll just be going along with the general flow here, most of us seem to be heading that way.  :(
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2013, 04:44:49 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 19, 2013, 04:36:11 PM
Then he'll just be going along with the general flow here, most of us seem to be heading that way.  :(

I'm turning into a ball of sunshine.  :mad:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 04:32:46 PMWhile you can have a pleasant tete-a-tete with yourself about how you agree with yourself.

That makes no sense. You're the one posting about your agreement; I just posted a pointless link and declined to discuss it further.

QuoteYou have really turned into a crank in the last couple months Yake.

This again? I think this is the third time in 2013 you've busted out the "you're being uncharacteristically mean." I haven't changed my posting style; I think it's much more likely that you've grown more thin skinned.

Look - I like you so I'll tell you how it is: I'm not going to get involved in some bullshit "let's examine your motives" and engage with Lettowian faff about Japanese society and its interaction with the wider world; I'm especially not going to do so over a completely inconsequential and silly blog post about boobs.

The answer to any attempt to get me to engage in that is going to be "fuck off" no matter what mood I'm :)

I think the problem is that you have this image of me as being a kinder gentler and more polite poster than I actually am. I may have aspired to glowing-ball-of-light-Euro-reasonableness in all things back in 2001 on EUOT, but that was more than a decade ago. I haven't been that poster for years and years Yi; I've changed. And you've only just noticed :(
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 04:56:28 PM
It's true - Jacob has alternated between euro-PC-ball of light, and passive-aggressive asshole, for years now. :hug:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2013, 05:01:30 PM
Hmmmm. My pickle was not tickled.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 05:04:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 04:56:28 PM
It's true - Jacob has alternated between euro-PC-ball of light, and passive-aggressive asshole, for years now. :hug:

I thought I was mostly aggressive-aggressive when being an asshole :huh:

But other than that, yeah :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: The Brain on August 19, 2013, 05:07:06 PM
He probably has personal problems that make him act like an asshole on the internet. I know I do.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 05:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 19, 2013, 05:07:06 PM
He probably has personal problems that make him act like an asshole on the internet. I know I do.

If only he could develop some basic self confidence and stopped basing his identity on his subgroup. :(
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 05:09:46 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 05:04:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 04:56:28 PM
It's true - Jacob has alternated between euro-PC-ball of light, and passive-aggressive asshole, for years now. :hug:

I thought I was mostly aggressive-aggressive when being an asshole :huh:

But other than that, yeah :)

Nah.  Aggressive-aggressive is more CdM's style - think more dead fetuses and f-bombs.

You have a unique way of being an asshole  with backhanded compliments and keeping a smile on your face.

Not at all meant as a critique, just an observation.   :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Maximus on August 19, 2013, 05:11:20 PM
I liked the boobs
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
<snip>

Okey dokey.  Will adjust my thinking.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:11:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
<snip>

Okey dokey.  Will adjust my thinking.

:hug:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:13:30 PM
Boobs Ramen.  What a great Dick Tracy character name that could've been.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 05:09:46 PMNah.  Aggressive-aggressive is more CdM's style - think more dead fetuses and f-bombs.

You have a unique way of being an asshole  with backhanded compliments and keeping a smile on your face.

Not at all meant as a critique, just an observation.   :)

I'll definitely cop to that :)

Not sure if I'd call that passive aggressive as that has a different connotation to me, but whatever.

The downside is that sometimes when my intentions are entirely innocuous and friendly, people still assume that I'm being a jerk; so I'm likely (a little bit) less of an asshole than people on languish might think due to my posting.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
Jaike, I'd like to say I have no problem with you bringing this to our attention.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:23:17 PM
The downside is that sometimes when my intentions are entirely innocuous and friendly, people still assume that I'm being a jerk; so I'm likely (a little bit) less of an asshole than people on languish might think due to my posting.

It's what happens when you're branded with a sensitive ponytail, Mr. Patchouli Stink.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:26:19 PMIt's what happens when you're branded with a sensitive ponytail, Mr. Patchouli Stink.

:unsure:

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:30:20 PM
I've said my part, dammit.  :mad:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:35:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:30:20 PM
I've said my part, dammit.  :mad:

:hug:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs.

I don't think the boobs have much to do with the quarrel.

We quarrel because we are a bunch of quarrelsome gits*

(*mongers can elaborate on the provenance of that word)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs Xiacob.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs Xiacob.

Probably not a particularly apt correction.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2013, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs Xiacob.

Probably not a particularly apt correction.

Somebody's got a mancrush...  :wub:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:47:12 PM
Everybody Loves Xiacob.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2013, 06:47:47 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:47:12 PM
Everybody Loves Xiacob.

Does Yi? That's how I determine what I like.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: mongers on August 19, 2013, 07:26:17 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 19, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
It saddens me to see people quarreling over something as noble, beautiful and worthy of admiration as a good pair of boobs.

I don't think the boobs have much to do with the quarrel.

We quarrel because we are a bunch of quarrelsome gits*

(*mongers can elaborate on the provenance of that word)

:D

And in a way that's quite appropriate, because many of us might be turning into somewhat useless things, but what we're 'attached' to is something real, it's called Languish and it sorta functions as a community (old folkhome etc) . :gasp:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: PDH on August 19, 2013, 08:28:04 PM
Boobs
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2013, 08:34:26 PM
I still like the smaller B and C. Cups best. Anything larger, there is a suffocation hazard.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 19, 2013, 08:34:26 PM
I still like the smaller B and C. Cups best. Anything larger, there is a suffocation hazard.

True, I like 'em in the 34B/36C range, but they have to be height/weight proportionate as well. Caliga-approved knockers are just gross.

Then again, I don't really give a shit anyway.  I'm a legs and ass man.  Gotta have legs and that onion in the back.

Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Tonitrus on August 19, 2013, 08:56:50 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 19, 2013, 08:34:26 PM
I still like the smaller B and C. Cups best. Anything larger, there is a suffocation hazard.

When it comes to boobs, I firmly believe in equal opportunity and non-discrimination.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: PDH on August 19, 2013, 09:02:35 PM
I have dated everything from A to DD, and all I can say is that I like boobs.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 09:23:40 PM
For tactile and visual stimulation size is completely irrelevant compared to the prominence of the nipple.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: PDH on August 19, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 09:23:40 PM
For tactile and visual stimulation size is completely irrelevant compared to the prominence of the nipple.

You are a confirmed pooper-doode, so your opinion holds less weight.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 09:29:40 PM
I dunno, man...there's something to be said about the nipplage sciences.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2013, 09:30:00 PM
I'm pretty much a boob man.  I've seen some really awesome B's in my day, but generally the bigger the better if they're natural.  I'm not too keen on implants-- I'm of the belief that in most cases they should have left well enough alone.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2013, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2013, 04:56:28 PM
It's true - Jacob has alternated between euro-PC-ball of light, and passive-aggressive asshole, for years now. :hug:
Agreed, nothing new here. :hug:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 09:32:58 PM
Quote from: PDH on August 19, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
You are a confirmed pooper-doode, so your opinion holds less weight.

Who died and made you the boob Nazi? :mad:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: PDH on August 19, 2013, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2013, 09:32:58 PM
Quote from: PDH on August 19, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
You are a confirmed pooper-doode, so your opinion holds less weight.

Who died and made you the boob Nazi? :mad:

It was a coup, sorry you didn't get the memo.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Syt on August 19, 2013, 10:36:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 19, 2013, 04:48:05 PMLook - I like you so I'll tell you how it is: I'm not going to get involved in some bullshit "let's examine your motives" and engage with Lettowian faff about Japanese society and its interaction with the wider world; I'm especially not going to do so over a completely inconsequential and silly blog post about boobs.
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Lettow77 on August 19, 2013, 10:44:36 PM
 For what its worth, I didn't mean to examine your motivates too much; I didn't think you had some ulterior reason, I just thought you were shitposting. :)

To contribute to the wider discussion (lewd though it is), breasts are best tilted toward the larger end, as this assists them in contributing to an overall mothering aura that is quite desirable. Although it seemingly counteracts the overall effect given the sexual maturity of a proper mother figure, it is also quite appealing if she is ashamed of her breast size for the notice it draws and makes every effort to hide her light under a bushel. Those who flaunt, regardless of size, are guilty of too great an impropriety to be approached in a civil manner.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Josquius on August 20, 2013, 10:57:18 AM
Ah the mythical Japanese boobies. How I long for them.

I was expecting something along these lines:
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/07/02/we-learn-the-terrifying-secret-of-silent-hill-ramen/
:x
As someone who hates food that looks like even innocent things....eww.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: garbon on August 20, 2013, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 20, 2013, 10:57:18 AM
Ah the mythical Japanese boobies. How I long for them.

I was expecting something along these lines:
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/07/02/we-learn-the-terrifying-secret-of-silent-hill-ramen/
:x
As someone who hates food that looks like even innocent things....eww.

I don't see the issue with that dish.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Grallon on August 20, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
I'm curious Jake - have you ever been with a girl that wasn't Asian?



G.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 20, 2013, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: Grallon on August 20, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
I'm curious Jake - have you ever been with a girl that wasn't Asian?

I'd say upwards of 80% of the girls I've slept with were not Asian :)
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 20, 2013, 12:01:17 PM
... why do you ask, Grallon?
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 20, 2013, 12:47:07 PM
Could ask the same thing of you grallon- have you ever been with a girl who wasn't Asian?  :D
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Grallon on August 20, 2013, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 20, 2013, 12:01:17 PM
... why do you ask, Grallon?


You just seem to have a fixation an Asians - if you were gay I'd call you a rice queen.  But I'm forgetting myself - I'm questioning your motives ;)



G.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Scipio on August 22, 2013, 06:59:42 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2013, 06:13:30 PM
Boobs Ramen.  What a great Dick Tracy character name that could've been.
With built-in cross marketability: her cousin Tits Teriyaki, and sister in law Nipples Nigiri.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
Fancy first pitch at Korean baseball game: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/actress-tosses-the-most-amazing-first-pitch-ever?bffb
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 22, 2013, 11:21:47 AM
Nice flip though the pitch looks a bit high.
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Maximus on August 22, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
Throws like a girl
Title: Re: Boobs Ramen
Post by: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 22, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
Throws like a girl

I, for one, am not surprised by this.