French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Camerus]

I agree with Matlhus et al.  Banning head coverings is both intrusive and counterproductive.

Since the issue seems to be a problem with large numbers of immigrants who aren't easily assimilated, it seems there are better ways of addressing *that* problem, rather than a coercive and inflammatory measure that isn't likely to succeed in its ostensible goal.

[dps]

No clue what bigotry has anything to do with anything.

It's the motivation for laws like the French law under discussion.

[Razgovory]

"Muslim women and girls are particularly affected, facing an extreme form of double discrimination on the basis of both their religion and their gender. In France for instance, 85% of all Islamophobic acts target women."

http://cms.horus.be/files/99935/MediaArchive/pdfpress/13-03-20%20shadow%20report%202011-12%20final.pdf

http://cms.horus.be/files/99935/MediaArchive/publications/shadow%20report%202011-12/shadowReport_EN_LR%20%283%29.pdf

I guess it's for their own good.

[Capetan Mihali]

I sympathize with both outlooks.

It seems very justifiable for a French citizen to bristle at being lectured on the virtues of North American multiculturalism, when the social/economic/political history (and current reality) of immigration from Muslim countries is radically different. 

On the other hand, this law (and its rationalizations in terms of facilitating the legalized police state) also strike me as a significantly oppressive, as well as counterproductive, burden to place on people comprising a free society.

[Duque de Bragança]

Something escaped the freedom-loving people here with their beloved multiculturalism: the woman actually complied to the ID check but a passerby deemed it illegitimate and started rioting. That was in the French article and even google translate would have given an idea. That or asking me.
That bodes very bad for the freedom of choice of that woman.

Alors que les policiers procédaient au contrôle d'identité de cette femme, dans une rue semi-piétonne du centre-ville d'Argenteuil, un attroupement s'est formé et a dégénéré en affrontement, mardi vers 19 heures. "La jeune femme avait dans un premier temps accepté le contrôle. Mais un passant s'en est mêlé, pour dire que le contrôle était à ses yeux illégitime. Il a commencé à s'en prendre aux policiers", a indiqué une source proche du dossier.

As for alienating and counterproductive, being opposed by local muslims(the ones that count) that's not clearcut as you think

Response

Dalil Boubakeur, the grand mufti of the Paris Mosque, the largest and most influential in France, testified to parliament during the bill's preparation. He commented that the niqāb was not prescribed in Islam, that in the French and contemporary context its spread was associated with radicalisation and criminal behavior, and that its wearing was inconsistent with France's concept of the secular state; but that due to expected difficulties in applying a legal ban, he would prefer to see the issue handled "case by case".[18] Mohammed Moussaoui, the president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith, opposed using a law but favored discouraging Muslim women from wearing the full veil.[2]

Abroad, in July 2010, hundreds of Muslims protested against the bill in Karachi, Pakistan. The chief of the Pakistan-based Jamaat-e-Islami Party demanded that the UN take immediate action against France.[19] Nasharudin Mat Isa, leader of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, said that the ban had made Muslims around the world angry but stated that he hoped that it would not provoke any terrorist incidents.[20]

Abdel Muti al-Bayyumi, a member of the council of clerics at Al-Azhar Mosque in Cairo, Egypt, applauded the ban and stated that the niqāb has no basis in Sharia. He also said, "I want to send a message to Muslims in France and Europe. The niqab has no basis in Islam. I used to feel dismayed when I saw some of the sisters (in France) wearing the niqab. This does not give a good impression of Islam."[15] Yusuf al Qaradawi, another prominent Egyptian Islamic scholar, stated that in his view "the niqab is not obligatory" while criticizing France for violating the freedom of those Muslim women who hold the view that it is and criticizing France in that "they allow other women to freely dress in a revealing and provocative manner".[21]

Hassen Chalghoumi, a notable imam of the mosque in Drancy near Paris who had earlier received death threats and seen his religious service interrupted by Islamists because he supported dialog with the French Jewish community, later expressed support for the ban. He stated that the full facial covering "has no place in France, a country where women have been voting since 1945" and that "the burqa is a prison for women, a tool of sexist domination and Islamist indoctrination".[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

NB: Hassen Chalgoumi is famous for being called the Imam of the Jews by more radical muslims. He has been threatened for a while.

Raz

Your links are anecdotal and come from organisations little known and/or with very little representativity based on a vague concept as islamophobia (not liking and/or afraid of Islam) specially when defined by some of these organisations. Not liking islam does not mean rioting against muslims.

About ENAR
France

    Association des Juristes Arabo-Musulmans d'Europe (AJAME) 
    Association pour Favoriser l'intégration - AFIP
    Collectif audois d'éducation contre les discriminations et le racisme
    Collectif contre l'Islamophobie en France (CCIF)
    Convention laïque pour l'égalité (CLENPDC)
    Coordination contre le Racisme et l'Islamophobie
    Foul Express
    Homosexuel-les Musulman-es de France
    Les Anneaux de la Fraternité - Le Bateau Pédagogique
    Soulajah for Arts

http://www.enar-eu.org/Page.asp?docid=30541&langue=EN

Homosexuel-les Musulman-es de France sounds interesting (complete with PC spelling!) but I really doubt that most muslims see them as representative, much less the pro-niqab.
As for CCIF, now that's brilliant!

Représentativité
Composition du collectif

Selon le journaliste Jean-Marie Guénois du Figaro, il est très difficile de connaitre la composition du CCIF. Son président, Samy Debah, serait injoignable et son porte-parole, Marwan Muhammad, soutient que la liste des membres du collectif est « confidentielle »2.
Absence d'accréditation auprès de l'ONU

Le CCIF revendique d'être accrédité au Conseil économique et social ECOSOC de l'Organisation des Nations unies8. Cette information est reprise par de nombreux sites musulmans 9, 10,11, 12, 13, 14. L'information est infirmée par le site de cette branche de l'ONU qui ne reconnaît pas le CCIF15,16.
Idéologie

Selon Jean-Marie Guénois du Figaro un « expert reconnu » considère que le CCIF incarne un « islam identitaire agressif »... « Conduit par une jeune génération de musulmans nés en France, il s'est affranchi des grandes fédérations instituées et travaille en réseau avec une stratégie médiatique moderne, peu soucieux des questions du culte, mais en pointe pour une présence musulmane dans la société civile»2.

Le sociologue Gilles Kepel, spécialiste de l'islam en France, dans son livre Quatre-vingt-treize, nie l'existence d'une islamophobie en France. Il considère que « le CCIF ainsi que le site francophobe et anti-blanc des Indigènes de la République et le site islamiste Forsane Alizza – Les Cavaliers de la Fierté – sont les jumeaux chimériques des portails anti-islamiques Riposte laïque, Observatoire de l'islamisation, le« Bloc identitaire ou fdesouche. Ces sites réduisent l'autre exécré à des traits caricaturaux »17

Marwan Muhammad, porte parole du CCIF considère que l'islamophobie est différente selon les préférences politiques : « À droite, l'islamophobie est alimentée par un discours sur l'identité ou la sécurité ; à gauche, par la défense de l'égalité hommes-femmes et la laïcité »18.

Executive summary
Very little is known about the members, it claims some recognition from the UN it has not, experts say it's an agressive lobby at best, an organisation comparable to extreme right wing organisations at worst.

As for people letting people choosing their clothes themselves colour without state interference that would be nice but colour me sceptical. Walking around naked is also regulated if not banned. At best, say Germany, you have FKK areas, you just can't go around naked even in downtown Frankfurt even if you're a neo-Adamite. Or is the US the new promised for Adamites? Does not seem so with puritanical streak...

Lastly, those who sincerely worry for muslims should take into account that removing a security risk not necessarily linked to muslims in fact, and that sanctions for imposing the full veil have been increased, which protects other, law-obiding, muslims.

Article 225-4-10

    Créé par LOI n°2010-1192 du 11 octobre 2010 - art. 4

Le fait pour toute personne d'imposer à une ou plusieurs autres personnes de dissimuler leur visage par menace, violence, contrainte, abus d'autorité ou abus de pouvoir, en raison de leur sexe, est puni d'un an d'emprisonnement et de 30 000 € d'amende.

Lorsque le fait est commis au préjudice d'un mineur, les peines sont portées à deux ans d'emprisonnement et à 60 000 € d'amende.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=EAC70F6752F442BAD1D21C9D0FCFBB86.tpdjo04v_1?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000022913250&dateTexte=20130614&categorieLien=id#LEGIARTI000022913250

A laissez-faire approach would be doing a great disservice to other muslims and would actually worsen the situation for them IMO. Secularism is a French thing, and not doing anything would be counterproductive and alienating French natives, or does multikulti work only one way?

[Razgovory]

Does the French government keep statistics on hate crimes against Muslims?

[Grallon]

You can't expect partisans of the debilitating multiculturalism to understand any of this.  And the Canadian variety is particularly insidious in that regard as it's been absorded as a core value of their national identity...

This said I am doubtful of the practical effects of the measure since the Muslim presence in France is very significant (anywhere between 5-6 to 9-10 millions).  If this can't be applied in areas where the concentration of Muslims is high - and where the police dare not operate for fear of riots - then it becomes rather moot yes?



G.

[Valmy]

I don't know what Yi was drawing from particularly, and I wasn't aware that Yi was a scholar on the topic of Islam.

  You know what?  Nevermind.

[Valmy]

Well, if all religions fail to distinguish religion and politics, that puts Yi's comment specifically about Islam in a different light, no?

Um rejecting your absurd requirements that go way beyond any standard I have ever heard of before in my life does not prove the absurd hypothesis that all religions fail to distinguish between politics and religion.  I bet they have similarities and differences in how they view the relationship between politics and religion.

[Razgovory]

I don't know what Yi was drawing from particularly, and I wasn't aware that Yi was a scholar on the topic of Islam.

  You know what?  Nevermind.

I guess that's for the best, cause I really didn't no what you were on about.

[Valmy]

I guess that's for the best, cause I really didn't no what you were on about.

Yeah that conversation was going nowhere.

[Malthus]

You have some decided views on what I do and do not know.

You are completely wrong about me not knowing about what it is like being the child of an immigrant - my wife is the child of an immigrant.

Your appeal-to-personal-authority argument fails to persuade. This law is pretty clearly *not* about gangs of veil-wearing hoodlums.

I know for a fact that you don't know French Much harder to know France with the bad English level of the natives
The law is also about that. They are pretty well known for hiding their faces, not with veils but the law is not only about veils, it deals with security risks.
Of course knowing that would require reading the law or maybe a translation in, say wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

The French ban on face covering (French: Loi interdisant la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, "Act prohibiting concealment of the face in public space") is an act of parliament passed by the Senate of France on 14 September 2010, resulting in the ban on the wearing of face-covering headgear, including masks, helmets, balaclava, niqābs and other veils covering the face in public places, except under specified circumstances.[1] The ban also applies to the burqa, a full-body covering, if it covers the face. The bill had previously been passed by the National Assembly of France on 13 July 2010.[2]
The key argument supporting this proposal is that face-coverings prevent the clear identification of a person, which is both a security risk, and a social hindrance within a society which relies on facial recognition and expression in communication.

As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks. Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn.[4] The law applies to all citizens, including men and non-Muslims, who may not cover their face in public except where specifically provided by law (such as motor-bike riders and safety workers) and during established occasional events (such as some carnivals). The law imposes a fine of up to €150, and/or participation in citizenship education, for those who violate the law.[5][6] The bill also penalises, with a fine of €30,000 and one year in prison, anyone who forces (by violence, threats or by abuse of power) another to wear face coverings; these penalties may be doubled if the victim is under the age of 18.[1][5][7]

Article 1

Nul ne peut, dans l'espace public, porter une tenue destinée à dissimuler son visage.

Article 2

I. ― Pour l'application de l'article 1er, l'espace public est constitué des voies publiques ainsi que des lieux ouverts au public ou affectés à un service public.
II. ― L'interdiction prévue à l'article 1er ne s'applique pas si la tenue est prescrite ou autorisée par des dispositions législatives ou réglementaires, si elle est justifiée par des raisons de santé ou des motifs professionnels, ou si elle s'inscrit dans le cadre de pratiques sportives, de fêtes ou de manifestations artistiques ou traditionnelles.

Article 3

La méconnaissance de l'interdiction édictée à l'article 1er est punie de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la deuxième classe.
L'obligation d'accomplir le stage de citoyenneté mentionné au 8° de l'article 131-16 du code pénal peut être prononcée en même temps ou à la place de la peine d'amende.

As for the wife argument, The Brain answered before I could

Increasing immigrant alienation? Only, the hardcore muslim ones if salafist is too specific.

Hardcore Salafist Muslims - like Jacques Chirac?   

http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/resources/quotes/jacques-chirac-on-french-muslims-alienation-in-a-speech-at-elysee-palace

This is what I've been saying, only he says it better:

All the children of France, whatever their background, whatever their origin, whatever their belief, are daughters and sons of the republic.

A 2003 speech way before the laws were voted. His government voted the first law restricting on conspicious religious symbols merely one year after. Nice try. By the way, try to dig out his speech "Le bruit et l'odeur" ask the Québécois for what it means. Hint: it's about loud and smelly immigrants.
He also said that democracy could be possible with single-party rule (abroad not in France). A whole movie was made about his ludicrous statements. Dans la peau de Jacques Chirac


Stop putting words into my mouth, I didn't say "your country has problems too", I said YOU had problems with Quebeckers, not the same thing

Again, you are wrong. I have no "problems" with the Quebequois - though I do enjoy debating with several of them on Languish.

That's not what I get from the Québécois on Languish or from your repeated posts about these Têtes de Turc of yours...

I also said the immigration laws are not the same, I never implied it as a criticism, far from it, so calm down, I never wanted to hurt your Canadian pride.
You select them before allowing them inside? Good, but that's right-wing talk around these parts.

I'll take your word for Toronto being a cultural wasteland
I'll repeat this for the last time: wait until you have the same numbers and proportions of troublesome immigrants then you can have an enlightened viewpoint.

So I can't have a viewpoint until then? Okay.

You can have one, just not an informed one.

Native Canadians ? Are they like the native French in Argenteuil?

There are similar problems with poverty and alienation.

Funny that you compare immigrants with natives. Or did you mean French natives could get alienated as well?

Thanks for making your argument all about me, rather than the topic. Which I think is adequate evidence that you have no other arguments.

There is a term for that sort of argument, neither in English nor French but Latin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[Duque de Bragança]

Thanks for making your argument all about me, rather than the topic. Which I think is adequate evidence that you have no other arguments.

There is a term for that sort of argument, neither in English nor French but Latin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

All about you? Now, you're having delusions of grandeur. Ask Raz...

[Malthus]

I sympathize with both outlooks.

It seems very justifiable for a French citizen to bristle at being lectured on the virtues of North American multiculturalism, when the social/economic/political history (and current reality) of immigration from Muslim countries is radically different. 

On the other hand, this law (and its rationalizations in terms of facilitating the legalized police state) also strike me as a significantly oppressive, as well as counterproductive, burden to place on people comprising a free society.

I take Europeans bristling about being lectured by North Americans about multiculturalism  exactly as seriously as I take Americans bristing about being lectured by Europeans about gun laws and medicare, or Canadians bristling about being lectured about environmentalism by Europeans. 

Some things are just done better in other places, for whatever reasons. The US has problems with creating a workable system of health care, and would do well to look at how Europeans do things; the Europeans have problems with immigration and incorporating Muslims in their societies, and would do well to look at how Americans do things.

Getting butthurt and making personal remarks, as the OP seems wont to do, isn't any sort of answer. It could well be the case that, because of unique circumstiances, one society could never adopt any proven, good ideas on one topic or another from a different society, but I'm inclined to doubt it - more like parochial pride gets in the way.

[Malthus]

Thanks for making your argument all about me, rather than the topic. Which I think is adequate evidence that you have no other arguments.

There is a term for that sort of argument, neither in English nor French but Latin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

All about you? Now, you're having delusions of grandeur. Ask Raz...

Count how many things you have said about me, personally. Compare to how many personal things I have said about you - that is, exactly none.

The sum of your argument is that I'm not fit to make any. It's a classic argument "about the man".  Read the link to find out what that means.