French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Malthus]

You are completely wrong about me not knowing about what it is like being the child of an immigrant - my wife is the child of an immigrant.

lol

Let me guess: you also know what it's like to be a woman?

At least I cohabit with the human variety. Unlike some. 

[derspiess]

I think that results in understanding them even less.

[Duque de Bragança]

You have some decided views on what I do and do not know.

You are completely wrong about me not knowing about what it is like being the child of an immigrant - my wife is the child of an immigrant.

Your appeal-to-personal-authority argument fails to persuade. This law is pretty clearly *not* about gangs of veil-wearing hoodlums.

I know for a fact that you don't know French Much harder to know France with the bad English level of the natives
The law is also about that. They are pretty well known for hiding their faces, not with veils but the law is not only about veils, it deals with security risks.
Of course knowing that would require reading the law or maybe a translation in, say wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

The French ban on face covering (French: Loi interdisant la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, "Act prohibiting concealment of the face in public space") is an act of parliament passed by the Senate of France on 14 September 2010, resulting in the ban on the wearing of face-covering headgear, including masks, helmets, balaclava, niqābs and other veils covering the face in public places, except under specified circumstances.[1] The ban also applies to the burqa, a full-body covering, if it covers the face. The bill had previously been passed by the National Assembly of France on 13 July 2010.[2]
The key argument supporting this proposal is that face-coverings prevent the clear identification of a person, which is both a security risk, and a social hindrance within a society which relies on facial recognition and expression in communication.

As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks. Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn.[4] The law applies to all citizens, including men and non-Muslims, who may not cover their face in public except where specifically provided by law (such as motor-bike riders and safety workers) and during established occasional events (such as some carnivals). The law imposes a fine of up to €150, and/or participation in citizenship education, for those who violate the law.[5][6] The bill also penalises, with a fine of €30,000 and one year in prison, anyone who forces (by violence, threats or by abuse of power) another to wear face coverings; these penalties may be doubled if the victim is under the age of 18.[1][5][7]

Article 1

Nul ne peut, dans l'espace public, porter une tenue destinée à dissimuler son visage.

Article 2

I. ― Pour l'application de l'article 1er, l'espace public est constitué des voies publiques ainsi que des lieux ouverts au public ou affectés à un service public.
II. ― L'interdiction prévue à l'article 1er ne s'applique pas si la tenue est prescrite ou autorisée par des dispositions législatives ou réglementaires, si elle est justifiée par des raisons de santé ou des motifs professionnels, ou si elle s'inscrit dans le cadre de pratiques sportives, de fêtes ou de manifestations artistiques ou traditionnelles.

Article 3

La méconnaissance de l'interdiction édictée à l'article 1er est punie de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la deuxième classe.
L'obligation d'accomplir le stage de citoyenneté mentionné au 8° de l'article 131-16 du code pénal peut être prononcée en même temps ou à la place de la peine d'amende.

As for the wife argument, The Brain answered before I could

Increasing immigrant alienation? Only, the hardcore muslim ones if salafist is too specific.

Hardcore Salafist Muslims - like Jacques Chirac?   

http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/resources/quotes/jacques-chirac-on-french-muslims-alienation-in-a-speech-at-elysee-palace

This is what I've been saying, only he says it better:

All the children of France, whatever their background, whatever their origin, whatever their belief, are daughters and sons of the republic.

A 2003 speech way before the laws were voted. His government voted the first law restricting on conspicious religious symbols merely one year after. Nice try. By the way, try to dig out his speech "Le bruit et l'odeur" ask the Québécois for what it means. Hint: it's about loud and smelly immigrants.
He also said that democracy could be possible with single-party rule (abroad not in France). A whole movie was made about his ludicrous statements. Dans la peau de Jacques Chirac


Stop putting words into my mouth, I didn't say "your country has problems too", I said YOU had problems with Quebeckers, not the same thing

Again, you are wrong. I have no "problems" with the Quebequois - though I do enjoy debating with several of them on Languish.

That's not what I get from the Québécois on Languish or from your repeated posts about these Têtes de Turc of yours...

I also said the immigration laws are not the same, I never implied it as a criticism, far from it, so calm down, I never wanted to hurt your Canadian pride.
You select them before allowing them inside? Good, but that's right-wing talk around these parts.

I'll take your word for Toronto being a cultural wasteland
I'll repeat this for the last time: wait until you have the same numbers and proportions of troublesome immigrants then you can have an enlightened viewpoint.

So I can't have a viewpoint until then? Okay.

You can have one, just not an informed one.

Native Canadians ? Are they like the native French in Argenteuil?

There are similar problems with poverty and alienation.

Funny that you compare immigrants with natives. Or did you mean French natives could get alienated as well?

[Jacob]

Maybe the niqab thing is really about the Muslamic Ray Guns? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AIPD8qHhtVU#t=0s

[Razgovory]

A claim was made that there is no distinction between religion and politics in Islam, and this is used to argue for a number of political actions aimed at Muslims.

A similar argument was made at Catholics in the past, to similarly target them socially and politically.

Comparing the similarities and differences could theoretically illuminate our understanding of the subject at hand.

I am not even sure if that is exactly a similar argument.  For them to be similar we would have to assume both accusations had identical motives and accuracy.  I am not sure if it is accurate in Islam and I do not know if it is being spread around to target them socially or politically.  I mean I presume Yi is not intending to do that.

I think Yi was incorrect in saying that Muslims can't separate religion and politics.  The people who made such accusations about Catholics and the ones that currently make such accusations of probably had and have a multitude of motives, and I imagine there is a lot of overlap.

[Duque de Bragança]

The ones preaching the niqab are salafist, though. That' not moderate islam and you know it. Of course, one could defend the need to let them keep their niqabs so they can be easily spotted as said once by Le Pen once.

Not always Salafi.

I hate the phrase 'moderate Islam'. Moderation is a political not a religious virtue. Even your trendiest vicar would probably object to being called a 'moderate Christian'.

Anyway I don't really worry about what sort of Islam people believe in, it's only if there's belief in violence that I think it should be a worry.

There's a great political French quote about modéré:

« Républicain modéré mais non modérément républicain » Difference is clear in French.

[The Minsky Moment]

So I actually am the child of an immigrant.
Not sure what else to say because I can't figure out from the thread what the significance of that status is.

[mongers]

It's worth saying the niqab doesn't actually mean instant Salafism, any more than a big beard and a salwaar kameez do. It would be far easier to tackle extremism if that were the case

Though the majority of muslim women I've spoken with about this issue, have said they adopted the various face cover as a symbolic or overtly political statement; the vast majority of these women were young British Asians.

[mongers]

So I actually am the child of an immigrant.
Not sure what else to say because I can't figure out from the thread what the significance of that status is.

You can become* President, they can't.   



* does the constitution prohibit a non-native** born from running for the post or just bans them from taking up office if they win ?



** In the accepted sense of the term ie John McCain and Obama were legitimate candidates.

[Admiral Yi]

Then why are we trying to push them out?

The argument against amnesty is that it would incentivize future illegal immigration.  And reward law-breaking.

[mongers]

Perhaps incidentally, the UK has legislation making it illegal, in effect to 'cover one's face' in certain public circumstances and there have been prosecutions.

[Valmy]

I think Yi was incorrect in saying that Muslims can't separate religion and politics.  The people who made such accusations about Catholics and the ones that currently make such accusations of probably had and have a multitude of motives, and I imagine there is a lot of overlap.

Ok then can we talk about that then?  I am sure something bad has been said about many religions in the past but discussing all of them might be time consuming.  Yi had a suggesting it was a scholarly thing of some sort not Yi drawing from bigots.

[Jacob]

Ok then can we talk about that then?  I am sure something bad has been said about many religions in the past but discussing all of them might be time consuming.  Yi had a suggesting it was a scholarly thing of some sort not Yi drawing from bigots.

Well, if all religions fail to distinguish religion and politics, that puts Yi's comment specifically about Islam in a different light, no?

[Razgovory]

I think Yi was incorrect in saying that Muslims can't separate religion and politics.  The people who made such accusations about Catholics and the ones that currently make such accusations of probably had and have a multitude of motives, and I imagine there is a lot of overlap.

Ok then can we talk about that then?  I am sure something bad has been said about many religions in the past but discussing all of them might be time consuming.  Yi had a suggesting it was a scholarly thing of some sort not Yi drawing from bigots.

I don't know what Yi was drawing from particularly, and I wasn't aware that Yi was a scholar on the topic of Islam.

[Admiral Yi]

It's not an original thought.  Bernard Lewis perhaps?

No clue what bigotry has anything to do with anything.