French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Valmy]

Basically, if you're going to live in France, you must look, act, and talk like a Frenchperson. If not, they'll force you to.

That's not something that I will ever understand.

Mostly because it is not true.

[derspiess]

I think the problem is that France doesn't like different. Look at how they handle their language. Basically, if you're going to live in France, you must look, act, and talk like a Frenchperson. If not, they'll force you to.

That's not something that I will ever understand.

It does sound a bit odd to an American.  But the French & other European nations are entitled to protect their culture & national identity.  Of course, it may not have been wise for them to import large numbers of muslims who don't want to assimilate, but it's a bit late to do much about that.

[Sheilbh]

Funny enough, the ones hating "Moderate Islam" are the extreme-right wingers around here.
If that bothers you, well make it belief in violent islam.

My issue is that I think we don't talk about Islam in the right way.

First of all we use political rather than religious language about it. When we talk about the CofE or Catholics we use broad divisions of 'modernists' or 'reformists vs 'traditionalist'. Occasionally we'll talk about 'conservatives', 'liberals', 'evangelicals' or 'Anglo-Catholics'. But I can't think of a single time when discussing a bishop, or internal politics when I've heard someone described as a 'moderate Catholic'. Similarly I don't think liberal or reform Jews are routinely described as 'moderate Jews'. It's a problem that all our discourse about Islam is based in political terms (as opposed to Islamism, a moderate Islamist or hard-line Islamist makes perfect sense).

Secondly I think you're right. All too often it seems that people actually cede lots of ground to the most conservative interpretations of Islam. We do a weird 'no true Muslim' thing, that narrows what we consider that faith to include to, basically, Iran and Saudi which is unfortunate. I have Muslim friends who drink, I'm not going to doubt their self-identified faith or exclude them from my idea of Islam on the basis of one teaching. But then as a gay condom-using Catholic who am I to judge another's adherence to the faith. But for some reason we've generally decided that actually the strictest interpretation of Islam is the interpretation, which rather yields the argument and lets down many Muslims.

[Sheilbh]

I think the problem is that France doesn't like different. Look at how they handle their language. Basically, if you're going to live in France, you must look, act, and talk like a Frenchperson. If not, they'll force you to.

That's not something that I will ever understand.

Got to love a streak of Jacobinism

[Malthus]

I think the problem is that France doesn't like different. Look at how they handle their language. Basically, if you're going to live in France, you must look, act, and talk like a Frenchperson. If not, they'll force you to.

That's not something that I will ever understand.

It does sound a bit odd to an American.  But the French & other European nations are entitled to protect their culture & national identity.  Of course, it may not have been wise for them to import large numbers of muslims who don't want to assimilate, but it's a bit late to do much about that.

The Muslims in France are, presumably, just as much Frenchmen as the Frenchmen who are not Muslims - assuming they are French citizens. Islam is now part of the "cultural identity" of France, because there are now French Muslims.

[derspiess]

I tricked a muslim into eating a barbecue pulled pork sandwich a few weeks ago






The trick was just that I had her thinking it was gonna be spicy barbecue sauce and it wasn't

[Duque de Bragança]

The issues between Anglo-Canadians and Quebequois have nothing to do with this debate. They don't need my "toleration", because they have their own province, where they are in the political majority.

I'm glad for them to have a majority because otherwise they could be still waiting for your toleration.

But really now, your argument isn't persuasive - I'm saying, as an outsider, that your law is counter-productive because it is likely to increase immigrant alientation. It is hardly an answer to say 'well, your country has problems too, so please STF up' or 'you just don't know what it's like here'. Those are the arguments of bankruptcy, what's left when you can't persuade with facts or logic. 

Fact is, you don't know the French situation as I do.
Besides as an outsider, you can only rely on indirect sources. You didn't know about the relative numbers of muslims, how the "sacro-sanct freedom of clothing" is abused by gangs, not necessarily muslim btw if that makes you feel better. Are you really suggesting that delinquents do no like to hide their faces from CCTV and cops? Try entering a bank with a motorbike helmet and see what happens.
You don't even have an idea of what is to be an immigrant or a son of an immigrant...

Increasing immigrant alienation? Only, the hardcore muslim ones if salafist is too specific.

There is not doubt Canada has problems, and does some things worse than France. This just happens to be something Canada does better. If a Frenchman told me Toronto was a cultural wasteland compared to a comparable French city, that's fair enough; we don't do culture as well as the French. What we do better, is accomodate and absorb Muslim immigrants.

Anyway, if you want to point to a comparable problem, don't point to Quebec - point to Native Canadians. 

Stop putting words into my mouth, I didn't say "your country has problems too", I said YOU had problems with Quebeckers, not the same thing
I also said the immigration laws are not the same, I never implied it as a criticism, far from it, so calm down, I never wanted to hurt your Canadian pride.
You select them before allowing them inside? Good, but that's right-wing talk around these parts.

I'll take your word for Toronto being a cultural wasteland
I'll repeat this for the last time: wait until you have the same numbers and proportions of troublesome immigrants then you can have an enlightened viewpoint.

Native Canadians ? Are they like the native French in Argenteuil?

[derspiess]

The Muslims in France are, presumably, just as much Frenchmen as the Frenchmen who are not Muslims - assuming they are French citizens. Islam is now part of the "cultural identity" of France, because there are now French Muslims.

Lawyers

Some French citizens are culturally more French than others, and you know that.

[Valmy]

The Muslims in France are, presumably, just as much Frenchmen as the Frenchmen who are not Muslims - assuming they are French citizens. Islam is now part of the "cultural identity" of France, because there are now French Muslims.

Well...the fact only a small percentage actually practice their supposed religion indicates this is very true

[Sheilbh]

As an outsider, so you have no idea what you are talking about. You didn't know about the relative numbers of muslims, how the "sacro-sanct freedom of clothing" is abused by gangs, not necessarily muslim btw if that makes you fell better. Are you really suggesting that delinquents do no like to hide their faces from CCTV and cops? Try entering a bank with a motorbike helmet and see what happens.

But none of that's unique to France. I'm sure some North Americans could talk about gang colours.

As with the ID checks how much of a problem is Muslim women in the niqab against CCTV?

[DGuller]

That does not apply.

In the islam those women are living under, their personal freedom is restricted. Voluntarily or not. That cannot be compatible with a society build on personal freedom.

So you restrict their freedom even more.

For their own good of course.

Restricting choices can increase freedoms.  Anyone even remotely familiar with game theory knows that.

[Malthus]

I'm glad for them to have a majority because otherwise they could be still waiting for your toleration.

But really now, your argument isn't persuasive - I'm saying, as an outsider, that your law is counter-productive because it is likely to increase immigrant alientation. It is hardly an answer to say 'well, your country has problems too, so please STF up' or 'you just don't know what it's like here'. Those are the arguments of bankruptcy, what's left when you can't persuade with facts or logic. 

Fact is, you don't know the French situation as I do.
As an outsider, so you have no idea what you are talking about. You didn't know about the relative numbers of muslims, how the "sacro-sanct freedom of clothing" is abused by gangs, not necessarily muslim btw if that makes you fell better. Are you really suggesting that delinquents do no like to hide their faces from CCTV and cops? Try entering a bank with a motorbike helmet and see what happens.
You don't even have an idea of what is to be an immigrant or a son of an immigrant.

You have some decided views on what I do and do not know.

You are completely wrong about me not knowing about what it is like being the child of an immigrant - my wife is the child of an immigrant.

Your appeal-to-personal-authority argument fails to persuade. This law is pretty clearly *not* about gangs of veil-wearing hoodlums.

Increasing immigrant alienation? Only, the hardcore muslim ones if salafist is too specific.

Hardcore Salafist Muslims - like Jacques Chirac?   

http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/resources/quotes/jacques-chirac-on-french-muslims-alienation-in-a-speech-at-elysee-palace

This is what I've been saying, only he says it better:

All the children of France, whatever their background, whatever their origin, whatever their belief, are daughters and sons of the republic.

Stop putting words into my mouth, I didn't say "your country has problems too", I said YOU had problems with Quebeckers, not the same thing

Again, you are wrong. I have no "problems" with the Quebequois - though I do enjoy debating with several of them on Languish.

I also said the immigration laws are not the same, I never implied it as a criticism, far from it, so calm down, I never wanted to hurt your Canadian pride.
You select them before allowing them inside? Good, but that's right-wing talk around these parts.

I'll take your word for Toronto being a cultural wasteland
I'll repeat this for the last time: wait until you have the same numbers and proportions of troublesome immigrants then you can have an enlightened viewpoint.

So I can't have a viewpoint until then? Okay.

Native Canadians ? Are they like the native French in Argenteuil?

There are similar problems with poverty and alienation.

[Malthus]

The Muslims in France are, presumably, just as much Frenchmen as the Frenchmen who are not Muslims - assuming they are French citizens. Islam is now part of the "cultural identity" of France, because there are now French Muslims.

Lawyers

Some French citizens are culturally more French than others, and you know that.

That's the whole issue. I'm saying there is no legitimate basis to insist that citizens should have their legal rights determined by how "culturally French" they are.

[Valmy]

That's the whole issue. I'm saying there is no legitimate basis to insist that citizens should have their legal rights determined by how "culturally French" they are.

Right the reason is because it is supposed to be oppressive to women.  Even if we accept that as completely true, for the sake of arguement, it is still wrong because it punishes the people it is created to protect.

[Admiral Yi]

I hate the phrase 'moderate Islam'. Moderation is a political not a religious virtue. Even your trendiest vicar would probably object to being called a 'moderate Christian'.

It's a useful distinction in a religion that kills and clubs people for looking or acting the wrong way.

Besides, in Islam there is no distinction between politics and religion.