Spain's $680 Million submarine can only dive, not resurface

[11B4V]

Get it out lickty split. Done plenty of slingloads. Work smarter not harder.

That's exactly what they're doing, instead of prepping and flying a helo from a ship who knows how many miles off the beach and taking up deck space that could be useful for other purposes.  Like flying more Marines to the area on 53s.

Dog Three is not open.  Fucking jarheads.

[Sheilbh]

Unlike America, we don't feel like we have any kind of global responsibility or global foreign policy mission to fight for democracy or liberty. We care about what happens in Europe (well, except its Eastern fringes). And that's about it. We certainly look at democracy and liberty elsewhere in an approving fashion and will provide political consultants or institutional help or aid or whatever, but not soldiers. Conflict between African states? Send some humanitarian aid. Conflict between Arabs and Iran? Let's try to sell them weapons. Conflict in East Asia? Maybe we can sell them weapons as well? Conflict in the Americas? Monroe Doctrine.

This is what worries me about a German-Europe, like we're seeing emerge. It's a well-meaning retirement home. I still think there's a very active role for Europe to play in the world given our near neighbourhood - and Europe still has global interests, beyond trade, that need to be defended. Germany may not be able to play much of a role but I think recent tendencies to being kind-of passive aggressive to her allies (the abstention on Libya for example) isn't helpful.

I think France and Britain are right on this.

France is pretty active. Is Germany not a more responsible international actor than France?

It depends how you define responsible. France is active and has a more enlarged view of French and European interests. Germany is far more insular, with the good and the bad of that. They're not active militarily but I believe they provide a lot of support to missions for state building and police capacity and so on. Which is, of course, very responsible but in a different way and generally more narrowly focused.

And, from a Germany or French perspective, what could possibly have been more responsible than ending the conflict between those countries?

My impression is that there's a certain smugness in Germany

Indeed

I always think that Germany's kind of smug in the way the UK, US and France are just quite arrogant

I do think Germany (and by Germany I mean the EU, and by the EU I mean the liberal Western democracies as a whole) should be interested in their ability to project force as needed to help with the basic security of the planet as a whole. I do think the West should in fact care about protecting the "rest of the West", like Taiwan.

I'm with Zanza on this. We should be able to project force. But there's choices involved. I would far rather that Europe was able to project force independently and strongly in the Atlantic and our near neighbourhood, rather than having to depend on the US and being travellers. We'd be better off making sure we're very able where we are than hoping to contribute to the defence of Taiwan.

I actually think that one problem with the current UK's defence policy is we're cutting everything we do, while I think we'd be better choosing to do less but to focus more on things we do well. But that means to an extent we're more dependant on the US, but I'd argue we can also be a stronger ally in those other key areas (special forces for example).

Russia is also not immune to the forces of nationalism, demagoguery, and stupidity.

But even now the one thing Europe's militaries probably could do is defend against Russia. That's what they're built for. So Russia isn't scary. China may get scary but isn't at the minute and we'd never be over there anyway. So it's more about using our force by choice: the Mid-East and Africa.

Germany opts against that sort of expansive vision of European security while France and Britain support it. Austerity, universally, makes it implausible.

Would America have fought WW3 in 1948 over Berlin? Honest question. I have my doubts.

Therefore Europe should pay for an Anglo-British force de frappe, delivered by beautiful Concorde-esque missiles, and an Anglo-French taskforce to occasionally topple North African and Middle Eastern governments. It's the only way Europe can be safe...

What was/is the German attitude towards Bosnia/Sbrenica?  Rwanda?

In fairness Bosnia's different all over Europe - especially for the Dutch. But I don't think there's any sense anywhere in Europe that we should've done something about Rwanda.

We don't just "call it something else", both C&M are fully integrated into Spanish territory like any other part of the country, while Gibraltar keeps its wishy washy status as an Overseas Territory and is still in the UN's list of Non Self-Governing Territories.

They've their own elections. Just like the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man. They're a slightly more autonomous version of the French DOM-TOM, no?

[MadBurgerMaker]

Dog Three is not open.  Fucking jarheads.

*thinks using a shovel to dig out some tires and hooking arty to a vehicle takes longer than moving other aircraft out of the way, putting a 46 on a deck, prepping it, flying it from a ship, and picking up the arty*
*is in the Army*

[11B4V]

Dog Three is not open.  Fucking jarheads.

*thinks using a shovel to dig out some tires and hooking arty to a vehicle takes longer than moving other aircraft out of the way, putting a 46 on a deck, prepping it, flying it from a ship, and picking up the arty*
*is in the Army*

Sounds like they need to get to digging. I know, maybe they can all try to lift it out.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Sounds like they need to get to digging. I know, maybe they can all try to lift it out.

Well, since that exercise was like a year ago, and they aren't Army morons who would still be sitting there waiting for a helo, they already moved the thing.

[alfred russel]

I wonder why we get Marine Corps recruiting advertisements featuring fights against monsters rather than digging artillery pieces out of the sand.

I also wonder whose idea it was to put heavy machinery on beach.

[Admiral Yi]

I also wonder whose idea it was to put heavy machinery on beach.

How else would you propose conducting an amphibious assault?

[Ed Anger]

I wonder why we get Marine Corps recruiting advertisements featuring fights against monsters rather than digging artillery pieces out of the sand.

I also wonder whose idea it was to put heavy machinery on beach.

The Germans won't protect Helm's Deep. The jarheads will.

[MadBurgerMaker]

I wonder why we get Marine Corps recruiting advertisements featuring fights against monsters rather than digging artillery pieces out of the sand.

Because showing someone cleaning the head or digging holes or stripping and waxing the deck would be really dumb for recruiting purposes.  Gladiatorial battles against fire demons are way cooler. 

E:  What are the USMC ads showing these days?  I haven't seen the monster one in a while, I know that, but I can't think of what they're throwing out there now.  The Navy has the one where they're saying the oath, the Army is still going with their cro-mag ARMY STRONG thing.  Is USAF still Step Into the Blue, or whatever that was?

[11B4V]

Sounds like they need to get to digging. I know, maybe they can all try to lift it out.

Well, since that exercise was like a year ago, and they aren't Army morons who would still be sitting there waiting for a helo, they already moved the thing.

You sure?

[MadBurgerMaker]

You sure?

I even gave you the reasons why: "Time" and "not Army."  It's definitely somewhere else now.

[alfred russel]

I also wonder whose idea it was to put heavy machinery on beach.

How else would you propose conducting an amphibious assault?

Does it really do any good to have an artillery piece stuck on the beach--right by the waters edge? Why not just keep it on the boat?

In general though I prefer airborne operations when moving into Sardinia. Despite cost advantages, I suggest avoiding Ryanair and going with Alitalia.

[Ed Anger]

I wonder why we get Marine Corps recruiting advertisements featuring fights against monsters rather than digging artillery pieces out of the sand.

Because showing someone cleaning the head or digging holes or stripping and waxing the deck would be really dumb for recruiting purposes.  Gladiatorial battles against fire demons are way cooler. 

E:  What are the USMC ads showing these days?  I haven't seen the monster one in a while, I know that, but I can't think of what they're throwing out there now.  The Navy has the one where they're saying the oath, the Army is still going with their cro-mag ARMY STRONG thing.  Is USAF still Step Into the Blue, or whatever that was?

The beach assault ad asking which way you will run.

[11B4V]

I also wonder whose idea it was to put heavy machinery on beach.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Does it really do any good to have an artillery piece stuck on the beach--right by the waters edge? Why not just keep it on the boat?

They just dig it out a bit and hook it to a vehicle and drive it away.  The boat there is a hovercraft, not a big amphib. 

The beach assault ad asking which way you will run.

  I don't think I've seen that one.