Spain's $680 Million submarine can only dive, not resurface

[Iormlund]

Next time, just buy German subs. The Israelis love'em.

The riots of Navantia shipyard workers would be crippling.

The reason this project is being funded is simple: the alternative is losing our entire submarine capability. The project has been delayed so long the S-70s are really, really old by now.

[MadImmortalMan]

Poor Isaac is not rolling in his grave. I'm sure he completely expected Spanish naval politics to screw him over again.

[Neil]

The submarine is an inherently predatory and immoral weapon.  Captured sailors on submarines should be hanged.

[Zanza]

The submarine is the only viable naval weapon left. All surface ships are way too easy to hit and sink.

[Berkut]

Next time, just buy German subs. The Israelis love'em.

The riots of Navantia shipyard workers would be crippling.

The reason this project is being funded is simple: the alternative is losing our entire submarine capability. The project has been delayed so long the S-70s are really, really old by now.

By that you mean you would lose your capability to build subs, not the capability to operate them, right?

Would that be such a bad thing?

Of all the various military equipment out there, subs seems pretty low on the list of "useful things your country really ought to be able to build themselves".

[Barrister]

Next time, just buy German subs. The Israelis love'em.

The riots of Navantia shipyard workers would be crippling.

The reason this project is being funded is simple: the alternative is losing our entire submarine capability. The project has been delayed so long the S-70s are really, really old by now.

By that you mean you would lose your capability to build subs, not the capability to operate them, right?

Would that be such a bad thing?

Of all the various military equipment out there, subs seems pretty low on the list of "useful things your country really ought to be able to build themselves".

Tell that to the ship building lobby.

[MadImmortalMan]

Giving up a capability like that is a difficult decision to make. It's got to be really uncomfortable.

[Neil]

The submarine is the only viable naval weapon left. All surface ships are way too easy to hit and sink.

It's not like submarines are any more difficult.  Hell, they don't even need to be hit to sink.

[citizen k]

Aboard the quietest submarine in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfjYZUiOkUw

[alfred russel]

The current German submarine design is a third smaller than this boat though. I doubt it would fit the Spanish specifications. Spain has much more blue water coastlines than Germany.

Why does Spain need submarines? It isn't as though it is possibly going to go to war with one of its neighbors. Any war it does enter would likely be far away and as a part of a multinational force.

More radically, why do Western European countries need militaries? Some have overseas commitments--so I understand that. Southern Europe needs to control migration from Africa. But what bad would happen if say Germany abolished its military, or at least the vast majority of it?

[Barrister]

The current German submarine design is a third smaller than this boat though. I doubt it would fit the Spanish specifications. Spain has much more blue water coastlines than Germany.

Why does Spain need submarines? It isn't as though it is possibly going to go to war with one of its neighbors. Any war it does enter would likely be far away and as a part of a multinational force.

More radically, why do Western European countries need militaries? Some have overseas commitments--so I understand that. Southern Europe needs to control migration from Africa. But what bad would happen if say Germany abolished its military, or at least the vast majority of it?

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

[alfred russel]

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

Mutual defense doesn't mean so much when neither is threatened by anyone.

[Zanza]

The current German submarine design is a third smaller than this boat though. I doubt it would fit the Spanish specifications. Spain has much more blue water coastlines than Germany.

Why does Spain need submarines? It isn't as though it is possibly going to go to war with one of its neighbors. Any war it does enter would likely be far away and as a part of a multinational force.

More radically, why do Western European countries need militaries? Some have overseas commitments--so I understand that. Southern Europe needs to control migration from Africa. But what bad would happen if say Germany abolished its military, or at least the vast majority of it?

We need it to showcase our future weapon exports.

In general I agree with you: Western European military is way overblown and mainly a political vehicle for industrial and structural policies to support weaker regions in the respective countries. Germany for example is surrounded by allies and the next potential threat, Russia, is far away. It is pretty much inconceivable that we could be involved in a major land war anytime soon.

That said, we are very much dependent on our international trade links, most of which are by sea. So we certainly have need of a navy. We could of course share that navy with other European countries as they will have exactly the same needs to protect trade routes, e.g. off the Horn of Africa or off Africa's west coast. So investing into ships that can protect trade routes makes sense for us.

However, our politicians do cut down the military accordingly. We have about 10% of the heavy tanks that we used to have in the Cold War left, we have created new units that can be deployed in international missions, we develop logistics capabilities to intervene abroad, we (fail to) develop drones to support missions abroad, the navy is restructured to blue water operations far away etc.

Our submarines allow clandestine operations in littoral waters and can scout for surface forces. So I guess they still have some missions that fit our current needs, but in general having silent hunter submarines when virtually all navies in the world are allied to you is probably useless.

[Barrister]

Things can change fast in geopolitics, but armies take decades to build.  The chance fo an armed confrontation with Russia or China is remote now, but you never know.

[garbon]

Meanwhile Canada should actively work on building up its forces.