Battle of the Nations - Live steel fighting

[Maximus]

I'm pretty sure the danger is a large part of the appeal.

[Tonitrus]

I'm kinda split on the Berkut/Meri view...

I wonder how this kind of thing would go over if it were guys using modern firearms w/rubber bullets (not airsoft...that'd be like the normal SCA/rattan-wooden swords fighting) and wearing full modern kevlar/body armor?

It'd probably be far more controversial without the "cool! It's like a ren fair!" factor.

But again, like boxing, everyone knows the risks.  If you want permanent brain injuries, that's cool.  It's not really worse than bungee-jumping or sky diving.  Both will kill you without the right/working equipment.

[merithyn]

I'm kinda split on the Berkut/Meri view...

I wonder how this kind of thing would go over if it were guys using modern firearms w/rubber bullets (not airsoft...that'd be like the normal SCA/rattan-wooden swords fighting) and wearing full modern kevlar/body armor?

It'd probably be far more controversial without the "cool! It's like a ren fair!" factor.

But again, like boxing, everyone knows the risks.  If you want permanent brain injuries, that's cool.  It's not really worse than bungee-jumping or sky diving.  Both will kill you without the right/working equipment.

That doesn't sound like a split, given that I pretty much agree with everything you said here. In particular, the bolded bit.

[Tonitrus]

I'm kinda split on the Berkut/Meri view...

I wonder how this kind of thing would go over if it were guys using modern firearms w/rubber bullets (not airsoft...that'd be like the normal SCA/rattan-wooden swords fighting) and wearing full modern kevlar/body armor?

It'd probably be far more controversial without the "cool! It's like a ren fair!" factor.

But again, like boxing, everyone knows the risks.  If you want permanent brain injuries, that's cool.  It's not really worse than bungee-jumping or sky diving.  Both will kill you without the right/working equipment.

That doesn't sound like a split, given that I pretty much agree with everything you said here. In particular, the bolded bit.

The split is that I think doing this kind of thing is stupid. 

[merithyn]

The split is that I think doing this kind of thing is stupid. 

Fair enough.

[Berkut]

  If you want permanent brain injuries, that's cool.  It's not really worse than bungee-jumping or sky diving.  Both will kill you without the right/working equipment.

I don't see it as the same at all.

First of all, the risk associated with bungee jumping and skydiving is very well understood - both activities have been done millions of times, and those who engage in them know exactly how safe or unsafe it is, based on the simple statistical analysis. The reality is that both of those activities are pretty damn safe, with fatality rates that are very low.

But still, those are not competive sports where there is an element of another human being trying his best to hurt you in the process. That is really an apples and oranges comparison. The better comparison is to other combative sports, like boxing or octagon fighting...except neither of those involve the use of weapons other than the human body. And they are both pretty dangerous, but still, deaths in either are very rare. In both cases it is pretty difficult to actually kill a human being with your bare hands withint the scope of the moves made in those kinds of contests.

Live steel fighting is very different because you are introducing actual weapons, the fundamental design of which is to kill humans. Then you add a bunch of protective equipment to stop said injuries from occuring, but the scope of the contest is in fact in each person attempting to injure their opponent despite those protective measures. And the result of the protective measures failing in, say, a boxing match, is a concussion. In live steel fighting, it will be someone dying.

Again, everyone going in is doing so with open eyes, it's not like it could come as a surprise to anyone. But nonetheless, this strikes me as an order of magnitude more dangerous than pretty much any other competitive sport I could imagine. Maybe auto-racing?

[Barrister]

  If you want permanent brain injuries, that's cool.  It's not really worse than bungee-jumping or sky diving.  Both will kill you without the right/working equipment.

I don't see it as the same at all.

First of all, the risk associated with bungee jumping and skydiving is very well understood - both activities have been done millions of times, and those who engage in them know exactly how safe or unsafe it is, based on the simple statistical analysis. The reality is that both of those activities are pretty damn safe, with fatality rates that are very low.

But still, those are not competive sports where there is an element of another human being trying his best to hurt you in the process. That is really an apples and oranges comparison. The better comparison is to other combative sports, like boxing or octagon fighting...except neither of those involve the use of weapons other than the human body. And they are both pretty dangerous, but still, deaths in either are very rare. In both cases it is pretty difficult to actually kill a human being with your bare hands withint the scope of the moves made in those kinds of contests.

Live steel fighting is very different because you are introducing actual weapons, the fundamental design of which is to kill humans. Then you add a bunch of protective equipment to stop said injuries from occuring, but the scope of the contest is in fact in each person attempting to injure their opponent despite those protective measures. And the result of the protective measures failing in, say, a boxing match, is a concussion. In live steel fighting, it will be someone dying.

Again, everyone going in is doing so with open eyes, it's not like it could come as a surprise to anyone. But nonetheless, this strikes me as an order of magnitude more dangerous than pretty much any other competitive sport I could imagine. Maybe auto-racing?

I agree with Meri in that I think the risk of concussions is going to be what is dangerous in this sport.

Where I disagree with Meri is that I think the risk of concussions is HUGE.  She even admits that they are "not uncommon".  That is not a good thing.

There was a story in the news this morning about how the family of Derek Boogaard was suing the NHL.  Boogaard was a hockey enforcer for several years - which meant he fought.  A lot.  Then he died of a drug overdose.  Autopsy revealed he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy, caused by blows to the head.  Also there are several thousand former NFL players suing the NFL - all about head trauma.

The more we learn about head trauma, the worse it seems.  A lot of what we thought about the risks of concussions has turned out to be far understating them.

Now this is going on in Eastern Europe, which is one thing.  BUt I doubt it'll get much traction in North America.  If it ever did it would be sued out of existence within a efw years.

[Malthus]

Yes, but think of it this way - the very obviousness of the danger works against a lawsuit.

A football player may say "we were never adequately warned of the dangers inherent in this sport - if we were, we would have done something different".

With this game, it is hard to argue going into it "we didn't know" we were risking life and limb.

[merithyn]

I agree with Meri in that I think the risk of concussions is going to be what is dangerous in this sport.

Where I disagree with Meri is that I think the risk of concussions is HUGE.  She even admits that they are "not uncommon".  That is not a good thing.

There was a story in the news this morning about how the family of Derek Boogaard was suing the NHL.  Boogaard was a hockey enforcer for several years - which meant he fought.  A lot.  Then he died of a drug overdose.  Autopsy revealed he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy, caused by blows to the head.  Also there are several thousand former NFL players suing the NFL - all about head trauma.

The more we learn about head trauma, the worse it seems.  A lot of what we thought about the risks of concussions has turned out to be far understating them.

Now this is going on in Eastern Europe, which is one thing.  BUt I doubt it'll get much traction in North America.  If it ever did it would be sued out of existence within a efw years.

Again, where's the disagreement? I'm not minimizing the danger at all. I recognize it completely, just like I recognize it with football, boxing, and hockey.

[Barrister]

I agree with Meri in that I think the risk of concussions is going to be what is dangerous in this sport.

Where I disagree with Meri is that I think the risk of concussions is HUGE.  She even admits that they are "not uncommon".  That is not a good thing.

There was a story in the news this morning about how the family of Derek Boogaard was suing the NHL.  Boogaard was a hockey enforcer for several years - which meant he fought.  A lot.  Then he died of a drug overdose.  Autopsy revealed he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy, caused by blows to the head.  Also there are several thousand former NFL players suing the NFL - all about head trauma.

The more we learn about head trauma, the worse it seems.  A lot of what we thought about the risks of concussions has turned out to be far understating them.

Now this is going on in Eastern Europe, which is one thing.  BUt I doubt it'll get much traction in North America.  If it ever did it would be sued out of existence within a efw years.

Again, where's the disagreement? I'm not minimizing the danger at all. I recognize it completely, just like I recognize it with football, boxing, and hockey.

I think it's dangerous to the point where the sport, as it exists, should not be allowed to continue.  Maybe if they banned blows to the head completely it might be safe.  But problem is that a metal helmet isn't going to do a darn thing to prevent a concussion.

[merithyn]

I think it's dangerous to the point where the sport, as it exists, should not be allowed to continue.  Maybe if they banned blows to the head completely it might be safe.  But problem is that a metal helmet isn't going to do a darn thing to prevent a concussion.

Ah, okay. Now I see where the disagreement is.

[Maximus]

I think it's dangerous to the point where the sport, as it exists, should not be allowed to continue.  Maybe if they banned blows to the head completely it might be safe.  But problem is that a metal helmet isn't going to do a darn thing to prevent a concussion.

Why should it not be allowed to continue? They're consenting adults. I just don't get that nanny state attitude.

Same with calling it stupid. Stupid would be doing it not knowing the risks. Believe me these guys know what they're getting into.

[Berkut]

I agree with Meri in that I think the risk of concussions is going to be what is dangerous in this sport.

Where I disagree with Meri is that I think the risk of concussions is HUGE.  She even admits that they are "not uncommon".  That is not a good thing.

There was a story in the news this morning about how the family of Derek Boogaard was suing the NHL.  Boogaard was a hockey enforcer for several years - which meant he fought.  A lot.  Then he died of a drug overdose.  Autopsy revealed he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy, caused by blows to the head.  Also there are several thousand former NFL players suing the NFL - all about head trauma.

The more we learn about head trauma, the worse it seems.  A lot of what we thought about the risks of concussions has turned out to be far understating them.

Now this is going on in Eastern Europe, which is one thing.  BUt I doubt it'll get much traction in North America.  If it ever did it would be sued out of existence within a efw years.

Again, where's the disagreement? I'm not minimizing the danger at all. I recognize it completely, just like I recognize it with football, boxing, and hockey.

I think comparing the danger to football, boxing, and hockey betrays that you don't recognize the danger at all.

But I don't see you heading out there, so it doesn't really matter to you - as long as the people out there hitting each other with swords understand the danger...

...then it won't matter a bit when someone gets killed and their family sues the person who hit them in the head with a sword.

[Berkut]

I think it's dangerous to the point where the sport, as it exists, should not be allowed to continue.  Maybe if they banned blows to the head completely it might be safe.  But problem is that a metal helmet isn't going to do a darn thing to prevent a concussion.

Why should it not be allowed to continue? They're consenting adults. I just don't get that nanny state attitude.

Same with calling it stupid. Stupid would be doing it not knowing the risks. Believe me these guys know what they're getting into.

I would not call it stupid, but not because they understand the risks. Lots of people do stupid things fully understanding the risks. Driving without a seatbelt is stupid, but people do it anyway, and they certainly understand the risks.

[Barrister]

I think it's dangerous to the point where the sport, as it exists, should not be allowed to continue.  Maybe if they banned blows to the head completely it might be safe.  But problem is that a metal helmet isn't going to do a darn thing to prevent a concussion.

Why should it not be allowed to continue? They're consenting adults. I just don't get that nanny state attitude.

Same with calling it stupid. Stupid would be doing it not knowing the risks. Believe me these guys know what they're getting into.

Because the risks of CTE are not at all obvious, occur slowly over time, and can only be conclusively diagnosed upon death.

There are thousands of former NFL players who say they did not, in fact, know the risks.