If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about

[Sheilbh]

it's nowhere near as bad as that, these numbers comes from hippie "think" tanks, where think is optional.  The only credible story I've read on this, based on credible numbers, put the amount at 4,6 trillion $ in 2007.  You can't really have more money invested in fiscal paradise than there are money in banks all accross the world, that just makes no sense.

I thought it came from the leaks about off-shore banking?

[Ideologue]

Avoiding taxes isn't really theft though.  Hell, even evading taxes isn't really theft.

True.  Theft should be punished with restitution and perhaps a beating.  Evading taxes is treason, and should be punished by execution.

[Grey Fox]

So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?

it's nowhere near as bad as that, these numbers comes from hippie "think" tanks, where think is optional.  The only credible story I've read on this, based on credible numbers, put the amount at 4,6 trillion $ in 2007.  You can't really have more money invested in fiscal paradise than there are money in banks all accross the world, that just makes no sense.

Than you factor in a marginal tax rate of 35% accross OCDE countries, wich nets you 1,6 trillion $, assuming 100% of this money has never been declared.  Still a huge sum of money.  But then, you go with the money each country would get, assuming equal proportion as their share of the world's GDP (it's a stretch, but let's use it).  You get some really low numbers.  Something that covers the deficit for one year in a country like Canada.

And then you submit a sample of real data to people who study these sort of things, and you get even lower numbers.  We're talking 7 billion$ for Canada and all its provinces.  Still a lot of money?  Well, Quebec's current (real) deficit will be 8 billion$ this year.  That's a yearly deficit, not a debt. 

So even if we were able to tax all that money this year, we wouldn't cover our yearly deficit.  And people still use that excuse to avoid any kind of wellfare state reform.

If we were to do that maths, seriously, for any OCDE countries, I think we'd reach similar conclusions.

And of course, there is the matter of the legality of these sums of money.  It's easy to imagine filthy rich US billionaires evading their tax, but the reality is that a lot of this money would belong to criminal organization and their people.  Even if you eliminate all tax loopholes, "Al Queida of America Inc." is not going to file tax reports every year on its international operation.

And if we eliminate those fiscal paradise with 0% corportate taxes, will the business declare their tax were they pay 35% income tax or were they pay 12%?  In the end, some countries will get more tax revenues, but probably not the one the left assume.

[viper37]

I thought it came from the leaks about off-shore banking?

Well, I haven't seen the numbers for all countries.  But for all of Canada, they estimate it at 7 billion$ lost, for all provinces&the federal government.

[viper37]

Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

[frunk]

Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

So if you found out that $7 billion was being scammed out of unemployment insurance you'd be ok with that?

[viper37]

Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

So if you found out that $7 billion was being scammed out of unemployment insurance you'd be ok with that?

I never said I was ok.

But if I found 7 billion$ was being scammed out of unemployment insurance, it wouldn't change my stance on it, I wouldn't push for an increase in payement to unemployed workers, I wouldn't relax the conditions to receive these payments and I would still fight against the culure of dependance it has created on some group of workers where it is "due" to them.

[Zanza]

So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?

Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?

[Martinus]

So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?

Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?

Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

[crazy canuck]

Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

Ah, the age old excuse of the tax dodging hypocrite.  If the State would only do what you think it should then you would pay more taxes but until then you will compain if others dont.

Put this one on the vast pile of your double standards.

[Martinus]

Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

Ah, the age old excuse of the tax dodging hypocrite.  If the State would only do what you think it should then you would pay more taxes but until then you will compain if others dont.

Put this one on the vast pile of your double standards.

Not really. I pay much higher taxes anyway than I would have if I was married to my partner and we benefited from the same taxation scheme as married couples. We also cannot benefit from many other tax breaks. It's not about the state doing what I think it should, but about the state putting me in a worse position, tax-wise, specifically because of my sexual orientation.

[Admiral Yi]

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Where did you get this number from?

[crazy canuck]

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Where did you get this number from?

Whenever picking a number between 1 and 10 the answer should always be 7.  The real question is why he thought the range was between 1 and 10.

[Grey Fox]

Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.

[Barrister]

Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.