Feminism

[merithyn]

Nah, don't see it.

Okay? Doesn't make it any less valid of a point.

[Malthus]

Long-term isn't the same as permanent. People should go into marriage thinking that yes, this is a long-term thing ... but if it doesn't work out, pecause people have changed in different ways, or have fallen out of love, or whatever, I see no value in permanence just for the sake of it. Particularly if it makes people miserable.

I say this, and I've been with the same woman for 25 years - but I've been lucky.

I'm not saying that people should stick around if their marriage makes them miserable. But then again, I'm not a big fan of marriage / don't really understand the idea of making vows to a lifelong commitment that isn't lifelong.

Wait, on the one hand you don't think marriage is a good thing, and on the other, you are criticizing people for not taking their marriage vows seriously enough? 

My opinion is this: marriage is a good thing for three very basic reasons:

1. It is an unequivocal signal to each other and to the outside world that you have chosen to make a committment;

2. It straightens out a bunch of legal stuff that you *can* do another way, but which requires a lot more tedious and expensive legal drudgery to do without marriage (right of survivorship, automatic entitlement to various benefits, etc.) - most people fail to get around to dealing with that stuff until it is too late; and

3. It acts as a positive milestone in people's lives and social memories, including the rest of one's family. As in "remember uncle Robert's wedding, when we all went to England ..."? These milestones and rituals tie people together, acts against the atomizing/anonymizing effect of modern society. 

None of this requires that marriage be permanent, with is sort of a leftover from religious nuttery that was traditionally associated with marriages.

[derspiess]

I'm not saying that people should stick around if their marriage makes them miserable. But then again, I'm not a big fan of marriage / don't really understand the idea of making vows to a lifelong commitment that isn't lifelong.

Max and I had issues with that, as well. Instead of making a lifelong commitment, our vows said something like, "for as long as I am able." Basically, we recognize that changes happen and things can be different 5, 10, 15, even 20 years down the line. We weren't going to make a vow for something that we just didn't know could or would happen.

Hmm, sounds almost like the Iranian-style contracts that have end dates.

[Malthus]

I'm not saying that people should stick around if their marriage makes them miserable. But then again, I'm not a big fan of marriage / don't really understand the idea of making vows to a lifelong commitment that isn't lifelong.

Max and I had issues with that, as well. Instead of making a lifelong commitment, our vows said something like, "for as long as I am able." Basically, we recognize that changes happen and things can be different 5, 10, 15, even 20 years down the line. We weren't going to make a vow for something that we just didn't know could or would happen.

Hmm, sounds almost like the Iranian-style contracts that have end dates.

Now you are just trolling her.

Really, it sounds like someone who takes the mumbo-jumbo of the ceremony seriously - as if the actual content of the vows made the slightest difference.

In my wedding, I didn't speak a word of the language the ceremony was conducted in. 

[garbon]

Wait, on the one hand you don't think marriage is a good thing, and on the other, you are criticizing people for not taking their marriage vows seriously enough? 

Well yes when marriage becomes downgraded to a chance to have a party and for legal benefits then I'm not particularly a fan of it. The commitment part seems a bit odd if you're just saying "hey we're committing to each other for as long as we feel like being together." What useful information does such a commitment impart?

[Malthus]

Wait, on the one hand you don't think marriage is a good thing, and on the other, you are criticizing people for not taking their marriage vows seriously enough? 

Well yes when marriage becomes downgraded to a chance to have a party and for legal benefits then I'm not particularly a fan of it. The commitment part seems a bit odd if you're just saying "hey we're committing to each other for as long as we feel like being together." What useful information does such a commitment impart?

I sense an excluded middle here.

A "committment" can be serious even if it is conditional, right? There's a range between a one-night-stand on the one hand, and death do us part on the other?

How about "we are committed until something changes such that we really cannot go on together"?

[derspiess]

Now you are just trolling her.

Honestly, when she started quoting 5, 10, 15, etc. year timeframes that's the first thing that came to mind.  Though I know some of theirs can expire in a matter of days.

Really, it sounds like someone who takes the mumbo-jumbo of the ceremony seriously - as if the actual content of the vows made the slightest difference.

Well... I do

In my wedding, I didn't speak a word of the language the ceremony was conducted in. 

Ours was in English and Spanish.  The priest seemed pretty enthusiastic about the English part, though he messed up and had his thumb in the wrong part of the page when he was pointing out where my wife was supposed to speak.  Though she probably should have thought about it before she said, "I take thee to be my wife."

[Malthus]

Honestly, when she started quoting 5, 10, 15, etc. year timeframes that's the first thing that came to mind.  Though I know some of theirs can expire in a matter of days.

She's just saying things can change after some years, not that their relationship had automatic expiry clauses. 

Well... I do

Well, fore someone who does, the whole "death do us part" thing can seem incompatible with divorce. Hence, the necessity to change vows.

For those of us who think the important thing is the fact of marriage and not the words of the ceremony, it really isn't important - keep the religious stuff and "death do us part" in for tradition's sake, but divorce in nonetheless a possibility.

Ours was in English and Spanish.  The priest seemed pretty enthusiastic about the English part, though he messed up and had his thumb in the wrong part of the page when he was pointing out where my wife was supposed to speak.  Though she probably should have thought about it before she said, "I take thee to be my wife."

And despite her vow, you failed to get a sex change? Tisk tisk.

I no longer believe you really take the words of the vows seriously. 

[merithyn]

Honestly, when she started quoting 5, 10, 15, etc. year timeframes that's the first thing that came to mind.  Though I know some of theirs can expire in a matter of days.

She's just saying things can change after some years, not that their relationship had automatic expiry clauses. 

Exactly. Though the Pagan Year-and-a-Day thing would have been cool, too, if we didn't need the legality of marriage for his papers.

Well... I do

Well, fore someone who does, the whole "death do us part" thing can seem incompatible with divorce. Hence, the necessity to change vows.

For those of us who think the important thing is the fact of marriage and not the words of the ceremony, it really isn't important - keep the religious stuff and "death do us part" in for tradition's sake, but divorce in nonetheless a possibility.

Exactly. If I'm going to stand before the man I love, friends, family, and my personal god, then I'm going to mean exactly what I say. Another part of my vow was to work very hard, doing all that I can for as long as I can, to make my commitment to my husband work. (It was prettier than that, but same idea.) It wasn't just a "yeah, let's be together until we can't anymore. Amen." My vow was something that I could commit to in its entirety, while recognizing that things happen and lives change.

[Malthus]

Exactly. If I'm going to stand before the man I love, friends, family, and my personal god, then I'm going to mean exactly what I say. Another part of my vow was to work very hard, doing all that I can for as long as I can, to make my commitment to my husband work. (It was prettier than that, but same idea.) It wasn't just a "yeah, let's be together until we can't anymore. Amen." My vow was something that I could commit to in its entirety, while recognizing that things happen and lives change.

Heh, ironically, non-lawyers tend to be more legalistic about these things - to me the ceremony was just, well, ceremonial. The actual words did not change what I was intending to do one jot (fortunately, as I did not understand them - they were in Ukranian, and related to a religion I do not follow. I might well have been agreeing to sell my soul to Cthulthu for all I knew). 

That said, I know people who put a lot of time and thought into crafting their vows, for the reasons you cite.

[The Brain]

Surely an oral contract is an oral contract?

[Malthus]

Surely an oral contract is an oral contract?

Clearly a new career is in order - suing people who get divorced for breach of contract. Why, pretty well everyone who gets divorced is guilty! It's a sure thing! 

[MadImmortalMan]

Exactly. If I'm going to stand before the man I love, friends, family, and my personal god, then I'm going to mean exactly what I say. Another part of my vow was to work very hard, doing all that I can for as long as I can, to make my commitment to my husband work. (It was prettier than that, but same idea.) It wasn't just a "yeah, let's be together until we can't anymore. Amen." My vow was something that I could commit to in its entirety, while recognizing that things happen and lives change.

Huh. I didn't want to write my own vows, so we used the traditional ones. And yes, she said "obey". 

Honestly, I can't imagine ever divorcing her though, so committing to forever is not a problem for me.

[merithyn]

Huh. I didn't want to write my own vows, so we used the traditional ones. And yes, she said "obey". 

Honestly, I can't imagine ever divorcing her though, so committing to forever is not a problem for me.

I couldn't imagine divorcing my first husband either. I wasn't going to break another vow.

[MadImmortalMan]

I suppose that makes sense.