Feminism

[merithyn]

And here's where I get frustrated with women's groups. Either women (and men) have the right to do with their bodies what they want or they don't. There's no picking and choosing like this. Laws already in place protect prostitutes - or would, if it were legalized - so the idea that making it illegal will somehow make things better is insanity, imo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20591726

More than 200 women's rights groups are calling for laws to make paying for sex a crime across the European Union.

Campaigners will present key policy recommendations for legislation to MEPs in Brussels on Wednesday.

"Prostitution is a form of violence, an obstacle to gender equality and an open door for organised crime to develop," a campaign spokeswoman told the BBC.

But opponents say the move is likely to drive the prostitution industry further underground.

The European Women's Lobby (EWL), which leads the campaign, wants EU member states to implement six key policies, including the criminalisation of all forms of procuring, and the creation of effective exit programmes for sex workers.

"The most important thing to understand about prostitution is that imposing sexual intercourse with money is a form of violence that shouldn't be accepted," EWL spokeswoman Pierrette Pape told the BBC.

"If we understand that, we can then put comprehensive policies into place that will change mentalities and respect gender equality between women and men."

'No boundaries'

EWL cites Sweden as a successful example, saying that street prostitution had halved there since paying for sex was outlawed a decade ago.

In contrast, there has been no significant improvement of the conditions of sex workers in the Netherlands where the sector has been decriminalised, Ms Pape said.

She said the issue now needed regulating on an international level, beyond country-specific laws.

"It is a problem that knows no political and geographical boundaries," she said, adding that EU policies on human trafficking would not be effective unless they also addressed prostitution.

"There is a legal base in the treaties to address the transnational crime of the sexual exploitation of women and children."

So far 36 European MEPs are already supporting the proposal, Ms Pape said.

Critics, however, argue that criminalising prostitution also increases the risk of rape and violence. The International Union of Sex Workers believes that the move would be dangerous because, instead of stopping the industry, it would drive it underground.

Many sex workers' associations say the sector needs more transparency and better regulation, the BBC's Maddy Savage reports from Brussels.

In the Netherlands, Austria and Germany, prostitutes register their services in return for the same rights and responsibilities as people running other kinds of businesses.

The EU currently does not have the power to legislate on prostitution. But new laws designed to reduce human trafficking are set to come into force next year and EU officials told the BBC both issues are closely linked.

They are currently analysing different countries' approaches and are expected to report back on their findings in 2016.

[garbon]

Either women (and men) have the right to do with their bodies what they want or they don't.

Would you extend that to self-harm and more pointedly - suicide?

[Grey Fox]

Your life is not the same thing then your body.

[derspiess]

And here's where I get frustrated with women's groups. Either women (and men) have the right to do with their bodies what they want or they don't. There's no picking and choosing like this. Laws already in place protect prostitutes - or would, if it were legalized - so the idea that making it illegal will somehow make things better is insanity, imo.

Well to be fair the proposed law would stick it to men who pay or attempt to pay for sex.  I'm assuming the prostitute wouldn't face criminal charges, though obviously it would affect her business.

A while ago I came around to the position that prostitution should be legal, sequestered to certain areas and regulated.  It's just gonna happen whether you want it to or not. 

[Valmy]

Can we really use Sweden as a model for anything?  The Nordic countries are always weird outliers.  If they managed to reduce prostitution in half in a normal country then I would be listening.

[merithyn]

A while ago I came around to the position that prostitution should be legal, sequestered to certain areas and regulated.  It's just gonna happen whether you want it to or not.

Between that and the idea that there are laws about the circumstances of who can have sex when (legal, consenting adults), I find the idea of making it illegal just plain stupid.

[merithyn]

Would you extend that to self-harm and more pointedly - suicide?

I don't think either should be illegal, if that's what you're asking.

Obviously, there are other factors at work on these, and mental stability is high on that list. I believe that the reason suicide is illegal is so that someone who is attempting - or threatening - suicide can be taken into custody for treatment. I would hope that we could come up with a better way than saying, "Not legal."

[garbon]

Would you extend that to self-harm and more pointedly - suicide?

I don't think either should be illegal, if that's what you're asking.

Obviously, there are other factors at work on these, and mental stability is high on that list. I believe that the reason suicide is illegal is so that someone who is attempting - or threatening - suicide can be taken into custody for treatment. I would hope that we could come up with a better way than saying, "Not legal."

But there are other factors at work on prostitution as well. Intimidation by one's pimp which could easily lead prostitutes to saying that they are willingly consenting as well as the individual mistakenly thinking that they don't have any better career choices (similar to those who think suicide is the only option).

Not that I disagree that prostitution should be legal - but I don't think it is as cut and dried as people have the right to do whatever they want to their bodies and our other laws already cover any problems.

[Martinus]

I believe that the reason suicide is illegal

Suicide is illegal? 

[Valmy]

I believe that the reason suicide is illegal

Suicide is illegal? 

Yeah if you botch a suicide you are going to prison for a long time.  The trials are especialy intense:

'Mr. Jones if you would please point out the man who tried to overdose you on painkillers'

'It was him!  That is the man!'

'Let the record show that Mr. Jones was pointing at the defendent Mr. Jones.'

[garbon]

Actually I was wrong. Apparently it isn't.

[merithyn]

But there are other factors at work on prostitution as well. Intimidation by one's pimp which could easily lead prostitutes to saying that they are willingly consenting as well as the individual mistakenly thinking that they don't have any better career choices (similar to those who think suicide is the only option).

Not that I disagree that prostitution should be legal - but I don't think it is as cut and dried as people have the right to do whatever they want to their bodies and our other laws already cover any problems.

So long as prostitution is illegal, those situations are far worse than they would be otherwise. Not saying that it will get rid of pimps and all of that crap, but it will lower the incidence rates and give prostitutes more options to get out from underneath such a person.

[merithyn]

Actually I was wrong. Apparently it isn't.

It is in some places, according to Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

[derspiess]

A while ago I came around to the position that prostitution should be legal, sequestered to certain areas and regulated.  It's just gonna happen whether you want it to or not.

Between that and the idea that there are laws about the circumstances of who can have sex when (legal, consenting adults), I find the idea of making it illegal just plain stupid.

Why do you always have to keep digging when we initially agree on something?? 

[merithyn]

A while ago I came around to the position that prostitution should be legal, sequestered to certain areas and regulated.  It's just gonna happen whether you want it to or not.

Between that and the idea that there are laws about the circumstances of who can have sex when (legal, consenting adults), I find the idea of making it illegal just plain stupid.

Why do you always have to keep digging when we initially agree on something?? 

To be fair, you do the same.