Feminism

[DGuller]

Why though would it go from 20% to 10%? It always had a high math component.

My guess is that these days, the kinds of people who go into computer science are the kinds of people who grew up tinkering with computers.  That habit strikes me as hugely male-dominated.

[garbon]

You can't have it both ways. You can't have her think for herself, yet discourage her from being whatever she chooses to be because it doesn't fit your idea of what a "proper young lady" should be.

You're the one using the word "discourage".  Not me.

My earlier post was meant to illustrate how your lack of encouragement equated to discouragement. Whether you choose to actively do so or not, your attitude will effectively dissuade your daughter from being anything she wants. That is discouragement.

Yeah but thankfully children aren't entirely dependent on the scaffolding their parents provide.

[Maximus]

That's interesting. What do you think accounts for it?

In contrast, lawyering is I think around 50/50 these days.

Partly the traditions of the Math profession as I mentioned above. More recently, I think the Gamer Geek culture.

And it is cultural, I have the benefit of being able to observe a world-class Computer Science department. This is my observations only, but from what I can tell the disparity does not exist at all among East Asians and exist to a much lesser degree among South Asians and Eastern Europeans.

[derspiess]

So you'd be entirely mute on the subject if your daughter wanted to become a doctor

Probably depends on the context, but yeah.

or was not behaving like a "proper young lady"?

Now here I would not be mute. 

[MadImmortalMan]

That's interesting. What do you think accounts for it?

In contrast, lawyering is I think around 50/50 these days.

Partly the traditions of the Math profession as I mentioned above. More recently, I think the Gamer Geek culture.

And it is cultural, I have the benefit of being able to observe a world-class Computer Science department. This is my observations only, but from what I can tell the disparity does not exist at all among East Asians and exist to a much lesser degree among South Asians and Eastern Europeans.

Even that is changing as girls get more into gaming.

[viper37]

And what are your opinions regarding the concept of "feminists" beyond the knee-jerk negative reactions?

No opinion beside the knee-jerk reaction

Actually, I have nothing against the whole "burning the bra" thing, or the naked protests.  By all means, all women who so desire shall be free

I'm all for equal pay-equal work, it's common sense to me, I don't believe in discrimination for things you can't change like sex, handicap, sexual orientation, etc.

I do mind however when we strecth those definition and we mostly base it on scholarity.  All degrees are not equal.

I do mind when some feminist bitch about a calendar of sexy girls being "exploitation of women" while they approve of those covered from toe to heard under a veil.  That's just silly.

I also do mind when they say we need women quotas in some jobs to insure equality between men and women.  There ain't a lot of women on construction sites, but there ain't a lot of men in schools and hospitals.  If we want 50-50 construction workers or mechanics, we will need 50-50 teachers, doctors and nurses.

I also think it's silly to compare annual wages between men and women.  In many couples, the woman is still the one caring for the kids.  When they are sick, she is the one missing work to take care of them. She is the one getting pregnant and having the 1 year unempoyment benefit.  After 3-4 kids, I think it's unfair to penalize those who stayed in the business continuously while a woman was raising her family.

So, basically, yeah, I disagree with modern feminism on many issues. 

[garbon]

So you'd be entirely mute on the subject if your daughter wanted to become a doctor

Probably depends on the context, but yeah.

or was not behaving like a "proper young lady"?

Now here I would not be mute. 

So both involve her doing things you think are not a good idea but you'd only speak up about the "proper young lady" bit? Sorry if I keep putting that in quotes, but I'm not really sure what that entails.

[DGuller]

The math thing is still something that grates on my nerves because I've yet to find a logical, conclusive reason for why women, in general, have a harder time in math than men, and yet individual women can succeed so well in it and individual men can fail miserably. Obviously, it's not an XX thing, or it would be the same across the board for all men and women. There is a reason this happens, and the only thing that I can imagine is the way that it is taught.

  I think I know why this individual woman is not good with probability and statistics.  There is a very simple statistical explanation that fits everything that you've observed, but you have to be willing to accept an explanation that doesn't fit your "the way it is taught" preconceived notion.

[merithyn]

There are thousands of companies with CEOs, and yet less than 4% of them are women. That's not really an outlier, imo.

I don't doubt that in time it will happen. What I question is how long it will take, especially if women can be and often are shamed for continuing to demand equality.

Or more to the point, especially as the overwhelming majority of women would have no shot at these quota CEO slots.  Women are a slight majority of the electorate; if they were to all unify and state that the condition for their electoral support is legislation that mandates a distribution of CEO positions according to demographic distribution of the genders, that would be the law.

But what's in it for the waitress, the stripper, the retiree, or any of the other 99.99% of women that would have no possible expectation of being handed a CEO position by the Committee on Gender Fairness in the Workplace?

There's also the issue of principle.  Women are now a majority of enrolled undergraduates and enrolled law school students.  Either women are acting on the principle of purely equal outcome, in which case they would also have to support a *reduction* in women in school, or they would be acting out of brute political strength.  That might further erode your hypothetical support.

It would be analogous to affirmative action for blacks: a tiny elite minority would benefit from the support of the majority, except that in this case the ratio of beneficiaries to supporters would be even smaller.

You must have missed my earlier posts where I said that I am for gender equality, not supremacy of one over another. I offered the CEO example as proof that we are nowhere near that, despite the assertion by several on here that we had reached it. 

[derspiess]

My earlier post was meant to illustrate how your lack of encouragement equated to discouragement. Whether you choose to actively do so or not, your attitude will effectively dissuade your daughter from being anything she wants. That is discouragement.

I don't really follow your logic.  I think you're being too emotional.

[Razgovory]

There are thousands of companies with CEOs, and yet less than 4% of them are women. That's not really an outlier, imo.

I don't doubt that in time it will happen. What I question is how long it will take, especially if women can be and often are shamed for continuing to demand equality.

Or more to the point, especially as the overwhelming majority of women would have no shot at these quota CEO slots.  Women are a slight majority of the electorate; if they were to all unify and state that the condition for their electoral support is legislation that mandates a distribution of CEO positions according to demographic distribution of the genders, that would be the law.

But what's in it for the waitress, the stripper, the retiree, or any of the other 99.99% of women that would have no possible expectation of being handed a CEO position by the Committee on Gender Fairness in the Workplace?

There's also the issue of principle.  Women are now a majority of enrolled undergraduates and enrolled law school students.  Either women are acting on the principle of purely equal outcome, in which case they would also have to support a *reduction* in women in school, or they would be acting out of brute political strength.  That might further erode your hypothetical support.

It would be analogous to affirmative action for blacks: a tiny elite minority would benefit from the support of the majority, except that in this case the ratio of beneficiaries to supporters would be even smaller.

Interesting argument from you.  A same case could be made for several taxes, like estate taxes or higher bracket taxation.  What's in it for the 99.99% who have no possible expectation of getting a benefit from it?

[Maximus]

Even that is changing as girls get more into gaming.

Maybe. I haven't seen it yet, but a lot of people are working very hard to change it as there is a chronic shortage of people in the field.

[Barrister]

That's interesting. What do you think accounts for it?

In contrast, lawyering is I think around 50/50 these days.

Partly the traditions of the Math profession as I mentioned above. More recently, I think the Gamer Geek culture.

And it is cultural, I have the benefit of being able to observe a world-class Computer Science department. This is my observations only, but from what I can tell the disparity does not exist at all among East Asians and exist to a much lesser degree among South Asians and Eastern Europeans.

Even that is changing as girls get more into gaming.

I dunno about that - there's a shocking amount of misogyny surrounding gamer culture.

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah. Nursing is actually a great gig on the money front.

Bump it up to "nurse practitioner", you get much better pay, and you don't have to clean out bedpans so much as well. 

Hell, get a MSN in Nursing Management, and you never have to wear scrubs ever again.

[merithyn]

  I think I know why this individual woman is not good with probability and statistics.  There is a very simple statistical explanation that fits everything that you've observed, but you have to be willing to accept an explanation that doesn't fit your "the way it is taught" preconceived notion.

What is it? I've asked in the past and not been given a decent answer beyond, "Well, women aren't good at it, and men are."