Feminism

[derspiess]

Because I generally believe in the validity of traditional gender roles.

What does that mean? That they should be adhered to? Which ones, like women staying home and raising the kids?

That sounds pretty good.

[derspiess]

And I'll note for the record that you cut out my part about not getting in her way.

That's only because you know her personally.

So?

[merithyn]

Well, I can't see myself actually encouraging her to enter a non-traditional career for a woman.

Why not?

Because I generally believe in the validity of traditional gender roles.  And I'll note for the record that you cut out my part about not getting in her way.

There's a huge difference to a girl on how her father handles what she wants. If you "won't get in her way", you're effectively saying, "don't do it." So, in order to step outside your antiquated view of the world, she'll not only have to combat society, she'll have to deal with disappointing the most important man in her world. That's why I cut that part out. It's no different than actively discouraging her.

[DGuller]

There's a huge difference to a girl on how her father handles what she wants. If you "won't get in her way", you're effectively saying, "don't do it." So, in order to step outside your antiquated view of the world, she'll not only have to combat society, she'll have to deal with disappointing the most important man in her world. That's why I cut that part out. It's no different than actively discouraging her.

I'm sure his daughter will be raised to be open-minded, independent, and strong-willed, so the "won't get in her way" part is the only thing that counts.

[merithyn]

My intent was not for this to be a "bash derspiess" thread. I was expecting his responses and not in the least surprised by them.

I'm more interested in those who truly believe that women have arrived, so to speak, and how the term "feminism" could be used to foster a more positive view of the entire situation.

[Barrister]

Good grief.

If I had a daughter I might caution her about entering heavily male-dominated industries - not because she counted do it, but just because life is tough enough without having to take on even more battles.

You realize that this is no better than what derspiess is suggesting, right?

Why's that?

There aren't a ton of male-dominated industries any more.  The ones that remain are typically some of the physically demanding trades.  There aren't a lot of women welders or pipe-fitters.  Assuming that's still the case whenever my fictional daughter turns 18 I'd caution against going into those fields.  There'd be a lot of comments and unwarranted assumptions, and just in general be tougher than it would need to be.  I'd probably caution my sons about going into nursing or admin assistant (about the only remaining female dominated careers).

If they wanted to do it great and I'd support it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Razgovory]

There's a huge difference to a girl on how her father handles what she wants. If you "won't get in her way", you're effectively saying, "don't do it." So, in order to step outside your antiquated view of the world, she'll not only have to combat society, she'll have to deal with disappointing the most important man in her world. That's why I cut that part out. It's no different than actively discouraging her.

I'm sure his daughter will be raised to be open-minded, independent, and strong-willed, so the "won't get in her way" part is the only thing that counts.

Then she'll lop off her own breasts.

[merithyn]

Why's that?

There aren't a ton of male-dominated industries any more.  The ones that remain are typically some of the physically demanding trades.  There aren't a lot of women welders or pipe-fitters.  Assuming that's still the case whenever my fictional daughter turns 18 I'd caution against going into those fields.  There'd be a lot of comments and unwarranted assumptions, and just in general be tougher than it would need to be.  I'd probably caution my sons about going into nursing or admin assistant (about the only remaining female dominated careers).

If they wanted to do it great and I'd support it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Because that attitude is why there are still gender-dominate fields. If a son wanted to be a nurse, there is no reason for him not to, other than antiquated notions of "male roles" and "female roles", something you claim to want to get rid of, and that, in time, will be gone. How will that happen if you - a self-described enlightened modern man - perpetuates them?

[Valmy]

I don't doubt that in time it will happen. What I question is how long it will take, especially if women can be and often are shamed for continuing to demand equality.

I think it will be faster than you think.  At least wait for the first generations to come up with idea that a woman could be a CEO reach CEO age.  I mean, as I said, the women who are in that age bracket now were entering the work force at a time when that just was not in the cards.  Look at the lower levels of management and I think the picture gets better.

[derspiess]

There's a huge difference to a girl on how her father handles what she wants. If you "won't get in her way", you're effectively saying, "don't do it." So, in order to step outside your antiquated view of the world, she'll not only have to combat society, she'll have to deal with disappointing the most important man in her world. That's why I cut that part out. It's no different than actively discouraging her.

You're reading the wrong things into that.  It's not like I'm cutting her off if she decides to major in pre-med or anything.  I just want to raise her to be a proper young lady (albeit one that can appreciate sports, shoot accurately, and generally think for herself) is all.

But don't let any of that get in the way of your FEMINAZI RAGE

[CountDeMoney]

Troll SUCCESSFUL

[Barrister]

Why's that?

There aren't a ton of male-dominated industries any more.  The ones that remain are typically some of the physically demanding trades.  There aren't a lot of women welders or pipe-fitters.  Assuming that's still the case whenever my fictional daughter turns 18 I'd caution against going into those fields.  There'd be a lot of comments and unwarranted assumptions, and just in general be tougher than it would need to be.  I'd probably caution my sons about going into nursing or admin assistant (about the only remaining female dominated careers).

If they wanted to do it great and I'd support it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Because that attitude is why there are still gender-dominate fields. If a son wanted to be a nurse, there is no reason for him not to, other than antiquated notions of "male roles" and "female roles", something you claim to want to get rid of, and that, in time, will be gone. How will that happen if you - a self-described enlightened modern man - perpetuates them?

It's antiquated to think that being a doctor is a "male role".

But it's just plain factual to point out that in the "trades, transportation equipment operators" fields women only made up 8% of the work force in Alberta in 2007 (Google FTW!).

I don't think I claimed to be a "enlightened modern man".  I'm just a man.  I want what's best for my kids, not for my kids to necessarily be blazing social pioneers.

[Maximus]

There aren't a ton of male-dominated industries any more.  The ones that remain are typically some of the physically demanding trades.

An exception to this is the field of Computer Science, it has actually gone "backward" from I think 20% of graduates being women in the 80s to around 10% today. And there is absolutely no reason for it. There's no physical component, there's not even a strong tradition-- the field barely existed 100 years ago and arguably the very first computer programmer was a woman.

I'd like to encourage my daughter to go into it. She has the mind for it and the personality to be a leader. But I don't want to pressure her. I don't think anything good can come of parents trying to push their children into certain careers.

[CountDeMoney]

I'd probably caution my sons about going into nursing

Don't know why:  nursing is big bucks especially as a traveling nurse, and it's tons of ass soup.

[DGuller]

An exception to this is the field of Computer Science, it has actually gone "backward" from I think 20% of graduates being women in the 80s to around 10% today. And there is absolutely no reason for it. There's no physical component, there's not even a strong tradition-- the field barely existed 100 years ago and arguably the very first computer programmer was a woman.

Well, it is a field that strongly relies on mathematics and logic.