The Nobel Peace Prize goes to ...

[Valmy]

Well there was indeed a plan. The plan was to let as many uneducated third worlders as possible into the country and get them dependent on government handouts, to ensure Socialist majority in parliament. As far as I can make out the plan pretty much ended there. And as plans go it was pretty neat, immigrants vote overwhelmingly Red. Obviously it was very destructive for the country and the people in it, natives and immigrants. That however was never seen as a problem.

Well if that is the plan I can see why people would be upset if you tried to help these people learn Swedish and get a job.  They might start voting blue or something.

[The Brain]

Well there was indeed a plan. The plan was to let as many uneducated third worlders as possible into the country and get them dependent on government handouts, to ensure Socialist majority in parliament. As far as I can make out the plan pretty much ended there. And as plans go it was pretty neat, immigrants vote overwhelmingly Red. Obviously it was very destructive for the country and the people in it, natives and immigrants. That however was never seen as a problem.

Well if that is the plan I can see why people would be upset if you tried to help these people learn Swedish and get a job.  They might start voting blue or something.

Well the plan probably doesn't exist anymore. Now the same thing just continues because of PC-crazed inertia.

[garbon]

Sure the correct term would probably be something like xenophobia as it couldn't have been racism or said groups could never have assimilated. We certainly did want them to give up their "barbaric" customs though.

Well there was certainly alot of anxiety as immigrants were just let in without restriction and they poured in in huge numbers.  But come on garbon there were hundreds of entire towns that consisted of nothing but one ethnic group practicing its culture and speaking its own language and everybody left them well enough alone.

I'm talking about places where people actually came into contact with immigrants not where they setup their own locations. I'm not sure why you're reacting as though this is some new thought. We've discussed this in the past before and I even brought up how in school they were teaching us about using a salad bowl metaphor over that of melting pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_bowl_(cultural_idea)

[Valmy]

I'm talking about places where people actually came into contact with immigrants not where they setup their own locations. I'm not sure why you're reacting as though this is some new thought. We've discussed this in the past before and I even brought up how in school they were teaching us about using a salad bowl metaphor over that of melting pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_bowl_(cultural_idea)

Well for a really long time people came here for the free Indian-stolen land.  So a huge majority set up their own settlements or moved to smallish communities.  So why is addressing how most of the immigration went some sort of exception?  The new idea here is there was some sort of concerted policy to forcefully assimilate people and that is just not the case.  There were pressures and bigoted people and unfortunate incidents and so forth and there was alot of pressure to do things like make English the official language and all sorts of things.  But ultimately we did not do those things.  Ultimately assimilation was voluntary.  And ultimately the concerted xenophobic policies that actually mattered are/were the ones that limit immigration and seek to make it more difficult.  So I can see the salad bowl metaphor as an attempt to smooth over some conflicts and so forth...the problems from bigoted persecution of immigrants created a tiny percentage of the problems forcibly excluding people from becoming part of the majority did.

And anyway despite our problems we totally rock at assimilating (or integrating or whatever) immigrants.  Shockingly the xenophobes were completely wrong.

[Valmy]

Well the plan probably doesn't exist anymore. Now the same thing just continues because of PC-crazed inertia.

Do think the problem will just sort itself out?  Surely a certain percentage of those immigrants are becoming Swedes at least to a functional extent.

[Viking]

Sure the correct term would probably be something like xenophobia as it couldn't have been racism or said groups could never have assimilated. We certainly did want them to give up their "barbaric" customs though.

Well there was certainly alot of anxiety as immigrants were just let in without restriction and they poured in in huge numbers.  But come on garbon there were hundreds of entire towns that consisted of nothing but one ethnic group practicing its culture and speaking its own language and everybody left them well enough alone.

I'm talking about places where people actually came into contact with immigrants not where they setup their own locations. I'm not sure why you're reacting as though this is some new thought. We've discussed this in the past before and I even brought up how in school they were teaching us about using a salad bowl metaphor over that of melting pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_bowl_(cultural_idea)

If I want a tossed salad I'll go to the local prison.

[garbon]

I'm talking about places where people actually came into contact with immigrants not where they setup their own locations. I'm not sure why you're reacting as though this is some new thought. We've discussed this in the past before and I even brought up how in school they were teaching us about using a salad bowl metaphor over that of melting pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_bowl_(cultural_idea)

Well for a really long time people came here for the free Indian-stolen land.  So a huge majority set up their own settlements or moved to smallish communities.  So why is addressing how most of the immigration went some sort of exception?  The new idea here is there was some sort of concerted policy to forcefully assimilate people and that is just not the case.  There were pressures and bigoted people and unfortunate incidents and so forth and there was alot of pressure to do things like make English the official language and all sorts of things.  But ultimately we did not do those things.  Ultimately assimilation was voluntary.  And ultimately the concerted xenophobic policies that actually mattered are/were the ones that limit immigration and seek to make it more difficult.  So I can see the salad bowl metaphor as an attempt to smooth over some conflicts and so forth...the problems from bigoted persecution of immigrants created a tiny percentage of the problems forcibly excluding people from becoming part of the majority did.

I don't think that's correct as far as everyone was just so happy to show up and lose their former customs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanization_(immigration)

Kellor, speaking for the NAC in 1916, proposed to combine efficiency and patriotism in her Americanization programs. It would be more efficient, she argued, once the factory workers could all understand English and therefore better understand orders and avoid accidents. Once Americanized, they would grasp American industrial ideals and be open to American influences and not subject only to strike agitators or foreign propagandists. The result, she argued would transform indifferent and ignorant residents into understanding voters, to make their homes into American homes, and to establish American standards of living throughout the ethnic communities. Ultimately, she argued it would "unite foreign-born and native alike in enthusiastic loyalty to our national ideals of liberty and justice.

After the 1970s proponents of multiculturalism have attacked Americanization programs as coercive and not respectful of immigrant culture. A major debate today is on whether speaking English is an essential component of being American.

The French-speaking Cajuns of southern Louisiana were not immigrants—they arrived before the American Revolution in an isolated area that allowed little contact with other groups. The Cajuns were forcefully Anglicized in the 20th century. Children were punished in school for using French; they were called names like "swamp rat" and "bougalie", forced to write lines ("I will not speak French in school"), made to kneel on kernels of corn, and slapped with rulers. French was also banned as a medium of education in 1912. English also gained more prestige than Cajun French due to the spread of English-language movies, newspapers and radio into Acadiana. Wartime military service broke the crust of traditionalism for younger men, while automobiles and the highway system allowed easy movement to Anglo cities. Prosperity and consumer culture, and a host of other influences have effaced much of the linguistic and cultural uniqueness of the Cajuns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation_of_Native_Americans#Americanization_and_assimilation_.281857.E2.80.931920.29

http://hsp.org/sites/default/files/legacy_files/migrated/reading2.1.pdf

Pressure on immigrants to
assimilate was tremendous and extended to all areas of life including the
workplace. Sometimes immigrants were required to take English classes as part of
their job placement. Women were seen as the ones who would pass on American
culture to their families, so organizations established classes to teach women
American homemaking skills. For instance, cooking classes taught immigrant
women how to cook American style and promoted certain vegetables as "American"
while others were labeled "foreign"! Bilingual schools were looked down upon and
non-English language programs were viewed as un-American. Programs for children
included opportunities to play that taught them how to go grocery shopping,
American games and music, and took them on outings.
The immigrants themselves often resented the organized efforts at Americanization.
Their responses to the programs ranged from indifference to hostility. Italians in
general avoided programs that promised handouts because they were distrustful of
them. Such help had been uncommon in Italy. Italians relied on their families,
relatives, and the mutual aid societies to help the needy.

By the 1930s through the 1950s, increasing concern about prejudices and tensions
among immigrant groups gave rise to the theory of cultural pluralism. This idea
promoted the view that diversity was good as long as it was not accompanied by
prejudice of one group toward another.  The metaphor of the salad bowl replaced
the theory of the melting pot in which everyone was expected to assimilate. Many
people believed that ethnic identity would disappear over time. This has not
happened. We have seen how older immigrant groups as well as newer immigrants
can still place great value on their own cultural traditions while at the same time
embracing the United States as their adopted home.

[garbon]

And here's an article from the earlier 20th century about the difficulties at americanize immigrants and the best ways to make sure that they conform.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/view/1010522

[The Brain]

Well the plan probably doesn't exist anymore. Now the same thing just continues because of PC-crazed inertia.

Do think the problem will just sort itself out?  Surely a certain percentage of those immigrants are becoming Swedes at least to a functional extent.

We keep adding more all the time, and any and all talk about assimilation is considered racist. Granted, what is Swedish is changing and is not the same thing now that it was in the 80s so hardcore Muslim views will certainly become more Swedish. For instance these days being hunted by murderers for drawing a cartoon is considered normal and many native Swedes think that the artist has himself to blame by making Muslims upset. 

[Valmy]

I don't think that's correct as far as everyone was just so happy to show up and lose their former customs.

Indeed that was exactly the opposite of what I was saying.  I was saying for decades they spoke their own languages and lived in their own towns.  It is kind of hilarious how stuck in time those communities were.  Even to this day the idea of Germanness the German towns of Central Texas portray is very much a mid-19th century version.  It was their grandchildren and great-grandchildren who moved on.  Eventually living in the past loses its charm.

I want to point out that the stuff you were mentioning is 20th century stuff, did not last that long, was completely inneffective, and was not applied in huge areas of the country.  I would agree that anything coercive is xenophobic but we have been without these things, legally anyway, for the majority of our history and it has nothing really to do with how effectively immigrants have assimilated.

[garbon]

I didn't say it did..but I think it would be a mistake to run roughshod over what happened to a lot of immigrants (especially those sticking to larger cities) and "natives."

[CountDeMoney]

I didn't say it did..but I think it would be a mistake to run roughshod over what happened to a lot of immigrants (especially those sticking to larger cities) and "natives."

I agree there were many barriers--particularly when it came to employment and education--for immigrants, particularly fostered by municipal governments, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but assimilation was still radically easier in our society for both a willing immigrant population that wanted to come to the US and a Federal government willing to accept them and ensure their legal rights as citizens.

I'm not sure I buy the salad bowl thingy when it comes to US history of immigration.  They melted like a fondue of cultural cheesy American goodness.

[garbon]

I'm not sure I buy the salad bowl thingy when it comes to US history of immigration.  They melted like a fondue of cultural cheesy American goodness.

Agreed. I think the salad bowl is problematic as it acts like we all remain separate. I think it is more like a fondue where everyone new brought in new flavors that mixed in.

[CountDeMoney]

Agreed. I think the salad bowl is problematic as it acts like we all remain separate. I think it is more like a fondue where everyone new brought in new flavors that mixed in.

Is this a great country, or what?

[garbon]

Agreed. I think the salad bowl is problematic as it acts like we all remain separate. I think it is more like a fondue where everyone new brought in new flavors that mixed in.

Is this a great country, or what?

It is pretty great. Now hopefully we can throw out faux-hope and change.