14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[Maximus]

then why did you continue to argue with me when I kept repeating this?

Because I assumed you were arguing rather than just repeating your catechism. Silly me.

jeeze, you people need to start asking yourselves "what did he mean when he wrote this?" before writing long posts telling me I'm wrong...

I never said you were wrong about that. I said it was irrelevant.

[Razgovory]

Btw I had a fun conversation with my oldest brother (who is a lot more religiously conservative than I) a little while ago.  I had run into a gal he used to date back in the day and I was telling him she still looked pretty young and that he ought to look her up.

He said he had talked to her fairly recently and had also found out that she was a witch.

I said, "Oh, you mean she *thinks* she's a witch."

He replied, "No, she's a witch."

I shot back, "That implies witchcraft is something real, rather than imagined."

He said, "Yes, I know.  She's a witch."

Then I changed the subject, lest we get into a DORK-SIDED argument.

Was her name Christine O'Donnell?

[garbon]

That's because you know what you are.  You are a hateful man.  You hate religion.  You have said on this board (and then got angry when I pointed it out and said you never did say it).

A quick search of posts that contain the word hate by Viking turn up with posts where he quoted you saying that he hates religion.

Closest I could find is this flippant comment by him: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,5358.msg273758/topicseen.html#msg273758

Why do I hate religion? Well, duh....

[Valmy]

http://historyofphilosophy.net/

I love this podcast.

Me to.  Along with History of English/History of England/Hardcore History are my four currently running favorite podcasts.

[garbon]

If you are finding "a spiritual path that resonated" with you personally, or found a "correct path" for yourself, then it's not really hard is it?  You are finding a path of things you want to do or want to believe.

Which is kind of what happens with most organized religions anyway. I mean it isn't as free-form as there is a lot of historical background, but still not everyone chooses to believe the same things. Just look at the multitude of denominations of Christianity.

I know, it's a shame ain't it?

I don't think so. I think people choosing what they feel like believing move us further from being dominated by organized religion. I don't see an issue with that.

[Maximus]

Cause it's the height of hubris?  "I know better then anyone else."  It's this kind of thinking that has people rejecting vaccines cause they aren't "natural" or whatever.

I don't know if I'd go that far. For some, organized religions are the answer, even if their proponents claim to know better than everyone else.

[Razgovory]

That's because you know what you are.  You are a hateful man.  You hate religion.  You have said on this board (and then got angry when I pointed it out and said you never did say it).

A quick search of posts that contain the word hate by Viking turn up with posts where he quoted you saying that he hates religion.

Closest I could find is this flippant comment by him: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,5358.msg273758/topicseen.html#msg273758

Why do I hate religion? Well, duh....

I found two.  That one, and another.  I brought them up recently I believe.

[Razgovory]

I don't think so. I think people choosing what they feel like believing move us further from being dominated by organized religion. I don't see an issue with that.

I suppose you wouldn't if bought into the idea that "Organized religion" was really bad.

[Neil]

Moby Dick is overrated.

[Razgovory]

Moby Dick is overrated.

You have to be an American to really appreciate it.

[merithyn]

Yes, actually I do.  I met several, and I've taken courses on classical culture (which included religion).  I've even read books by neo-pagans.  So yeah, I'm familiar with this bullshit.  If you are finding "a spiritual path that resonated" with you personally, or found a "correct path" for yourself, then it's not really hard is it?  You are finding a path of things you want to do or want to believe. 

Wouldn't the easier path be to just follow the crowd and do what they do? How many Christians actually follow their faiths edicts by contributing to help the poor or by being accepting of those different or less fortunate like Christ was? Yet, as a person finding their own personal way, it requires a lot more education, effort, and general work to find what works for them to find the peace they seek. When discussing Pagans, in general, most have to write their own rituals, following symbolism that they found through trial and error that worked for them, and generally figure out which of the thousands of possibilities actually affect their soul while they practice their faith. It would be much easier to just go along with what someone else came up with and take their rules instead of starting over from scratch.

Take Wicca for example.  It's no coincidence that majority of it's practitioners are feminists.  Since Wicca is predicated on the idea there was was an ancient prehistoric pro-socialist matriarchy, people inclined toward feminism would find this idea attractive.  They feel empowered by it, they want to believe it.  Even if it's not true.  I believe the term is "ennobling lie".  Most of the pagans I've met don't know shit.  One chick claimed that the Catholic Church murdered 20 million witches during the middle ages (which would be about the population of 18th century France).  It's actually a common idea that bounces around pagan circles.  It's bullshit of course (it's based on really bizarre methodology), but it "resonates" with them.

Wicca, according to Gardener, was never meant to be a feminist religion. It was created in order to have an egalitarian religion where both men and women have an equal part to play in the running, growth, and spiritual happenings. It was based on a poorly written and even worse researched anthropolgical study called "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margo Adler from the turn of the last century. Gardner took the book to be a faithful account of the history of paganism and using his experience as a member of the cabalistic magical lodge The Golden Dawn, created Wicca.

At some point in the 1960s or 1970s, a woman took over the religion and altered it completely, focusing entirely on the Priestesses and goddess and leaving out the part the men and gods had to play. (I can't remember her name off the top of my head.) By this time, Margot Adler's book had been thoroughly denounced as more fancy than history, but the Wicca movement was pretty big by this time, as were a lot of other Pagan movements. Rather than adjust their practices after 25 years, they decided to disregard the facts surrounding Adler's book. Instead, they ended up tenatiously defending the book, trying very hard to make it true by sheer force of will. Obviously, that didn't work, but it persists to this day.

Wicca is, in my opinion, a blight in the Pagan community. Many of their members intentionally distort facts to make their cases, alter history as they feel the need, and completely disregard anything that doesn't fit with their world view. In other words, they've become more like the mainstream religions they used to fight against. Again, I refuse to paint the entire religion as bad because of the few that I've met or read, but it is a constant struggle for me.

So if you're basing your entire opinion of Pagans on this one religion, you're doing a huge disservice to a much larger community of people who are no less reasonable, logic, and intelligent than you are. Of course, given to whom I'm speaking, more than you are.

[merithyn]

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism. If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.

Why the hell would that be true? Surely following your own religion is more serious than one someone else defines?

Cause it's the height of hubris?  "I know better then anyone else."  It's this kind of thinking that has people rejecting vaccines cause they aren't "natural" or whatever.

I think what you mean is: I know better than anyone else how to find personal fullfillment for myself. How that's the height of hubris, I don't know. Shouldn't the individual be the best judge of finding that fullfillment for his or herself?

[Valmy]

Yeah I was amused when we visited Salem that there was this pro-Wicca thing acting like their people were presecuted at the Witch Trials.  Um none of the people who were killed were actual witches people.  That is the whole meaning of a Witch Hunt.

[merithyn]

Yeah I was amused when we visited Salem that there was this pro-Wicca thing acting like their people were presecuted at the Witch Trials.  Um none of the people who were killed were actual witches people.  That is the whole meaning of a Witch Hunt.

Not to mention that Wicca came some 250 years later.

[garbon]

I don't think so. I think people choosing what they feel like believing move us further from being dominated by organized religion. I don't see an issue with that.

I suppose you wouldn't if bought into the idea that "Organized religion" was really bad.

Fair enough but I do as its clearly done a lot of harm.