Chicago Teachers Union leader Karen Lewis pushed back — and won

[CountDeMoney]

Also keep in mind that one income does not a typical household income make.

Teachers should get paid less if they're married. Gotcha.

[HVC]

if I knew they made that much I would have. Working 8 months a year and after a few years no chance of vesting fired unless I nail a student? Score!

I think you'd be a little to busy bobbing and weaving to nail students there.

CPS officials said there were 854 reported attacks against teachers and school employees in the last school year, with 180 resulting in injury.

pfft, I work as an accountant in manufacturing. I've seen a guy go after a manger with I oversized wrench. Tiny bopper rage ain't nothing. Well, you guys got the whole gun thing. But I'd be a canadian teacher. Passive aggression Is our weapon of choice

[Razgovory]

Why?

Why does Seedy's calculator say whatever it says about living on 76K in Southside Chicago? I give up.

Also keep in mind that one income does not a typical household income make.

No, why do you ask?

[garbon]

76k is low pay?

I always like plunking around with the cost of living calculators online.

76K for Columbus, Ohio? Yeah it rocks.  Chicago?  Meh.

That's 76k for part of a year / still a hell of a lot better than what many Chicagoans and New Yorkers make.

[Admiral Yi]

No, why do you ask?

To make the point that while Chicago may have a high cost of living, there is considerable variability within the city limits, and considerable variability between the expensive parts of the city and its suburbs.

I've got a question for you and Seedy: do you even admit the existence of the concept of overpaying public employees?  Can you concieve of a teachers' salary that even you would agree is too much?

[CountDeMoney]

I've got a question for you and Seedy: do you even admit the existence of the concept of overpaying public employees?

Yes;  they're called City Managers, Superintendents and other non-elected, politically appointed civic leadership positions.  Overpaid for what they do.

Can you concieve of a teachers' salary that even you would agree is too much?

Yes, but they teach at private schools, so really can't bitch about that.

But since you're of the opinion that public school teachers should be paid for shit, this discussion is moot, so don't fucking worry about what I fucking think.

[Razgovory]

No, why do you ask?

To make the point that while Chicago may have a high cost of living, there is considerable variability within the city limits, and considerable variability between the expensive parts of the city and its suburbs.

So?  Are you saying that teacher's pay should reflect the average of the people in the area?  Should a teacher be payed more to teach wealthy students?

[Admiral Yi]

But since you're of the opinion that public school teachers should be paid for shit, this discussion is moot, so don't fucking worry about what I fucking think.

  You've amply demonstrated what you think.

Raz on the other hand had the presence of mind to duck the question altogether.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Public employees are paid from government revenue. If the government revenue is not sufficient to cover certain salary demands by public sector unions (cancers that both FDR and Jimmy Carter railed against--this isn't just country club Republicans like me that think public sector unions are abominations against mankind) then government must raise revenue to meet salary demands. What is government to do when the people who vote refuse to elect politicians that will raise taxes (as that is the source of all government revenue)?

I don't exactly see what guys like Emmanuel are supposed to do when any hike in taxes is, in this political environment, career suicide and there just simply isn't enough money. Go into debt to give teachers raises? A private company does not give company-wide raises when it is in the deep red, at least not if they want to remain a going concern.

Raz is an unbearable asshat, but when he makes the point about "why should I be upset that someone is making a living off my tax dollars?" it reveals a good point (about his own stupidity): namely that people like CdM and Raz operate in a world of extremes. There is actually a middle ground between "teacher pay that isn't fit live on" and "teacher pay that is too high relative to the difficult of the job and the revenue available to pay for it."

I also think CdM is wrong on private teacher pay. I don't have national figures but local teachers I know that went private actually tell me they do not earn more than their public school counterparts nor are their benefits as good. Most of them did it because the work environment is far better, the type of teaching they are allowed to do is far more enjoyable, and because the school can be selective in who it admits the kids they deal with are a lot better to work with than inner city youths.

[Razgovory]

Government isn't a business, and really shouldn't be compared to one.

[The Brain]

Swedish teacher's union want crazy huge raises. Even though schools have displayed decreasing productivity for decades.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Government isn't a business, and really shouldn't be compared to one.

Sure it should be, in areas where they are comparable. Just like a business it's fine for government to run a certain amount of debt perpetually. But just like a business, when your debt gets so high that it looks like at some point down the road just financing the debt will make it impossible to actually do what you're supposed to as a entity (be it a government or business) then that is a serious problem.

This is especially true of city governments as they can't even inflate their way out of debt.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Plus, there is nothing about "government not being a business" that would mandate we pay teachers more than the area's median salary, or that we pay teachers regardless of the impact on the government's books.

[Razgovory]

Government isn't a business, and really shouldn't be compared to one.

Sure it should be, in areas where they are comparable. Just like a business it's fine for government to run a certain amount of debt perpetually. But just like a business, when your debt gets so high that it looks like at some point down the road just financing the debt will make it impossible to actually do what you're supposed to as a entity (be it a government or business) then that is a serious problem.

This is especially true of city governments as they can't even inflate their way out of debt.

The point of business, is to make a profit.  That's not the reason why we have government.  This core difference in mission is why they really can't be compared.

[Phillip V]

Pension Fund Is Running Dry

The Chicago Teachers’ Pension Fund is paying out more than $1 billion a year — much more than it has been taking in — and experts say the fund could collapse within a few years.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/business/teachers-pension-a-big-issue-for-chicago.html

What many Chicago residents may not realize is that their school district also has been paying $130 million a year to cover most of the pension contributions required of the teachers, a practice known as a “pickup,” which became a flash point last year in the collective bargaining battle in Wisconsin. Wisconsin’s public workers have agreed to make their own contributions, as a concession.


Officials in Chicago know they have a pension problem, even though it was not front and center in the strike. Mayor Rahm Emanuel focused on trying to improve the quality of public education, with a longer school day and more meaningful teacher evaluations. The Chicago Teachers’ Union, meanwhile, was intent on reinstating a 4 percent pay increase, and protecting those who are laid off when failing schools are closed.


Mr. Emanuel has made it clear that he wants to address teachers’ pensions, too. Earlier this year, he tried to curb at least some of Chicago’s ballooning costs by seeking to raise retirement ages, increase employee contributions and trim the 3 percent yearly pension increases that the city’s retirees now receive. He called those increases “the single greatest threat to the retirement security of city employees,” because they drain money from pension funds very quickly.
...
“In the State Constitution of Illinois, it says that once you receive a pension, it can never be changed to be lower,” said Claire J. Murray, who retired in 2002 at age 59 with a pension of about $42,000 a year.
...
Pension fund documents say the teachers continuously made their share of the contributions, 9 percent of each paycheck. But in fact, the teachers have been putting in just 2 percent of their pay, while the school district has been making up the rest of what is called the “employee contribution” every year. The practice began under an agreement reached in the early 1980s that was supposed to reduce future pay raises, keep money in the fund and take advantage of a federal tax break.


Such pickups were not widely known until Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin began his push to make public employees pay more for their benefits and to bar them from bargaining for anything other than base pay. Wisconsin law calls for public workers and their employers to split the cost of pension contributions, but in practice, state and local governments were picking up almost all of the employees’ share.