25 years old and deep in debt

[sbr]

: bleeding:   

Everyone can find a job, unless they can't.  But if they can't they just need to look harder, though that doesn't guarantee anything.

[LaCroix]

Everyone can find a job, unless they can't.  But if they can't they just need to look harder, though that doesn't guarantee anything.

that's not a correct summary

[Admiral Yi]

The problem La is either your language is imprecise or your logic is flawed.

No one is disputing that any randomly selected, lower ranking, Gomer Pyle Law School attending, off slacking JD can improve his chances of landing a job by applying himself.

However, this discussion is taking place in the context of the issue of a JD glut.  So while your thoughts about law student effort and success are interesting, not *every* grad can up their game and improve their chances.  If everyone were to study 1,000 hours a night and send out a trillion cover letters, the bottom 20% would *still* not land a job in the field.

And Wigger was busting your nuts about everyone scoring in the top 30th percentile when you agreed with him.  Percentile is a ranking; it's axiomatic that only 30% of the pool can land in the top 30th percentile.

[LaCroix]

The problem La is either your language is imprecise or your logic is flawed.

No one is disputing that any randomly selected, lower ranking, Gomer Pyle Law School attending, off slacking JD can improve his chances of landing a job by applying himself.

However, this discussion is taking place in the context of the issue of a JD glut.  So while your thoughts about law student effort and success are interesting, not *every* grad can up their game and improve their chances.  If everyone were to study 1,000 hours a night and send out a trillion cover letters, the bottom 20% would *still* not land a job in the field.

well, yeah. that's obvious to everyone. no one is arguing differently

the law market is pretty damn awful, especially for the average law grad. but at the end of day, when i hear personal stories of people affected by the glut and unable to find employment, i can only think.. well, that was kind of your own fault. every law student/grad has to deal with the glut. it should be a major consideration for anyone thinking about enrolling in law school. i applied knowing full well just how awful the system was and what my chances were

if in the argument, ide is on one side of the spectrum, then i'm on the other. depending on the person, i would definitely recommend law school - provided he did his research. so, that's where i was getting at with my original posts. as to the market itself? number of grads finding employment are improving, and enrollment is falling. i mean, really, what more is there to discuss?

as to wiggin - IDK! you and (especially) sbr seemed really confused as to what i was saying. wiggin was pointing out how "everyone can..." could be interpreted two different ways

[Eddie Teach]

wiggin was pointing out how "everyone can..." could be interpreted two different ways

That point was fairly obvious, but it wasn't the one I was making. In a competitive system, individuals are being judged by not only what they do but what others do. Not only is it impossible on the meta-level for everyone to make the cut, it's impossible for many individuals as well, no matter how hard they try.

In general, I'm against the arch-conservative school of thought that considers unemployment and/or poverty to be personal moral failings that the government should ignore, but it's especially egregious when it's a moving target- rather than being expected to get a specific number of answers on a test right, you're expected to get more than Bob & Joe do.

[LaCroix]

In a competitive system, individuals are being judged by not only what they do but what others do. Not only is it impossible on the meta-level for everyone to make the cut, it's impossible for many individuals as well, no matter how hard they try.

and i wasn't saying any differently. there's a reason why employment for graduates from the top 14 law schools is 81-94%, because to get into those schools tends to require more skill/hard work (usually both) than it does to get into much lower ranked schools. so, harvard law students aren't required to reach top 20% to get employment. they were already rewarded by getting in. those students who didn't make the cut and went to lower ranked schools face less competition, but they need to be higher in their class to easily find employment. those who are at the bottom, and truly fucked themselves in law school may still, however, manage to secure a job through determination post-graduation

whether it's 56% of graduates finding employment 9 months after graduation or 80%, there are still going to be a large number of people who won't find jobs because they didn't try hard enough. if a person doesn't try sufficiently enough before law school, during law school, or after law school, then that's on him

(edit)

In general, I'm against the arch-conservative school of thought that considers unemployment and/or poverty to be personal moral failings that the government should ignore

hold up. we're not talking about the average citizen here, or unemployment/poverty in general. we're talking about people studying to become attorneys and job placements for those people post-graduation. those are two very different subjects

[Fate]

Go into medicine. The guy who is dead last in his class is still going to get a job making 150-200k.

I'm graduating in two months and I'm 183k in debt. I'll have to put loans into forbearance for the next six years at 6.8% interest so I'll probably be near 260k in principal by the time I'm done with residency. I can't believe that in the 90s-early 2000s student loan interest rates were around 2-3%.

[Ed Anger]

I feel better about going to the doctor now.

[alfred russel]

I feel better about going to the doctor now.

Don't worry. I'm sure all the best doctors are clamoring to work in suburban Ohio.

[Eddie Teach]

hold up. we're not talking about the average citizen here, or unemployment/poverty in general. we're talking about people studying to become attorneys and job placements for those people post-graduation. those are two very different subjects

It's the same line of thought- if Pookie* worked harder, he wouldn't need welfare. If Ide worked harder, he'd have a higher paying job and could afford to repay his loans.

*to borrow a name from CDM

[Ed Anger]

I feel better about going to the doctor now.

Don't worry. I'm sure all the best doctors are clamoring to work in suburban Ohio.

I ignore your microaggression

[garbon]

That doesn't appear to flow off the tongue. Seems forced.

[Jacob]

That doesn't appear to flow off the tongue. Seems forced.

Indeed. It lacks the poetry of the original coinage.

[CountDeMoney]

Better than "microbutt"

[LaCroix]

It's the same line of thought- if Pookie* worked harder, he wouldn't need welfare. If Ide worked harder, he'd have a higher paying job and could afford to repay his loans.

*to borrow a name from CDM

but it's from a vastly different pool of people. we're not talking about the average person. the average person does not enroll in graduate/professional school (11%). the average person doesn't even enroll in college (30%). people who are poor/unemployed (generally) don't deserve their fate for a lot of reasons. having little empathy for the poor law school grad who gives up trying to find a job in the legal field and instead ends up working in an office (or wherever) is a bit different