25 years old and deep in debt

[crazy canuck]

I think a failure there could be the hard death of the notion that going to college will get you a good job and your own home.

Agreed. The main problem is that people don't have the information they need to make good decisions about their education.

I disagree.  That assumes that there is such a thing as information as to what the optimal educational experience is to obtain the optimal job.  I dont think such a thing exists or rather that such a notion is misplaced.

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

[crazy canuck]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

[garbon]

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

I don't know about that. I don't know if the purpose of college even now is expected by employers to teach you specific required skills.  I think that's somewhat what internships/summer jobs are for.  I don't think there is anyone hiring college grads and thinking they don't need training.  More than university has just become signaling. Have a BA/MBA? Right signal. Only have high school diploma? Move along.

[Ideologue]

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

I don't know about that. I don't know if the purpose of college even now is expected by employers to teach you specific required skills.  I think that's somewhat what internships/summer jobs are for.  I don't think there is anyone hiring college grads and thinking they don't need training.  More than university has just become signaling. Have a BA/MBA? Right signal. Only have high school diploma? Move along.

Entirely agreed.

[garbon]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

Maybe in a higher brow sort of sense. If one's contention and focus in on how economic prosperity/futures are being destroyed, seems about right that the first thing to go would be the general well roundness that one might get out of college.

[crazy canuck]

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

I don't know about that. I don't know if the purpose of college even now is expected by employers to teach you specific required skills.  I think that's somewhat what internships/summer jobs are for.  I don't think there is anyone hiring college grads and thinking they don't need training.  More than university has just become signaling. Have a BA/MBA? Right signal. Only have high school diploma? Move along.

I think you are wrong about that.  Co-op programs were once rare when I was in University.  Now it is difficult to think of a university program that doesnt offer a co-op opportunity or multiple opportunities.  Also, there is a huge push on atm to make university courses more relevant to the job market.  One need only see a lot of the comments in this thread to see it.  Something which, as I said, I think unversity should resist.

[crazy canuck]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

Maybe in a higher brow sort of sense. If one's contention and focus in on how economic prosperity/futures are being destroyed, seems about right that the first thing to go would be the general well roundness that one might get out of college.

Exactly the kind of thinking that I say is wrongheaded and why I think this is the most damaging conclusion that is being reached in this debate.

[garbon]

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

I don't know about that. I don't know if the purpose of college even now is expected by employers to teach you specific required skills.  I think that's somewhat what internships/summer jobs are for.  I don't think there is anyone hiring college grads and thinking they don't need training.  More than university has just become signaling. Have a BA/MBA? Right signal. Only have high school diploma? Move along.

Entirely agreed.

Now unfortunately, the only way I see that you could change that is by causing a decline in the number of people that go to college. Because otherwise, all a college degree says now is that you were willing to shell out money (or sell yourself to a bank) and put up with 4 more years of "required" schooling.

[garbon]

The optimal skills for jobs should be the kinds of skills a university traditionally provides and employers should then have the cost burden of training specific required skills.  I think it would be an interesting study to research how the shift away from this model occurred and how we can get back to it.

I don't know about that. I don't know if the purpose of college even now is expected by employers to teach you specific required skills.  I think that's somewhat what internships/summer jobs are for.  I don't think there is anyone hiring college grads and thinking they don't need training.  More than university has just become signaling. Have a BA/MBA? Right signal. Only have high school diploma? Move along.

I think you are wrong about that.  Co-op programs were once rare when I was in University.  Now it is difficult to think of a university program that doesnt offer a co-op opportunity or multiple opportunities.  Also, there is a huge push on atm to make university courses more relevant to the job market.  One need only see a lot of the comments in this thread to see it.  Something which, as I said, I think unversity should resist.

There may be a push but I don't really think we are there for the general business world. My first company would hire so many college grads as there was always a high attrition via washing out or non-willingness to continue employment.

[garbon]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

Maybe in a higher brow sort of sense. If one's contention and focus in on how economic prosperity/futures are being destroyed, seems about right that the first thing to go would be the general well roundness that one might get out of college.

Exactly the kind of thinking that I say is wrongheaded and why I think this is the most damaging conclusion that is being reached in this debate.

I don't. When you are struggling, there is hardly time for refinements...and I don't think college is essential for everyone.

[MadImmortalMan]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

Maybe in a higher brow sort of sense. If one's contention and focus in on how economic prosperity/futures are being destroyed, seems about right that the first thing to go would be the general well roundness that one might get out of college.

Exactly the kind of thinking that I say is wrongheaded and why I think this is the most damaging conclusion that is being reached in this debate.

Would it not be even more wrongheaded to defend the value of it at all cost? That's not doing the institution any favors either. In order for a thing to be improved, there must first be an acknowledgement that improvement is both necessary and possible, yes?

[Ideologue]

But that's going to change on its own isn't it? I mean it's already becoming a meme that college isn't worth it anymore.

And I think that is the most damaging thing to come out of all of this.

Maybe in a higher brow sort of sense. If one's contention and focus in on how economic prosperity/futures are being destroyed, seems about right that the first thing to go would be the general well roundness that one might get out of college.

Exactly the kind of thinking that I say is wrongheaded and why I think this is the most damaging conclusion that is being reached in this debate.

I liked it better when you were agreeing with Jake and by extension me.

If college is just culture school, what's really the point?

Btw, I hate it when I get branded as an anti-intellectual for this position.  If people are going to pay what they're paying for education--or paying any significant amount at all--it has to be an investment with a real rate of return, which in turn means inculcating market-valuable skills, not poetry or literature or history or other (fun) crap you can indulge in for free.

[crazy canuck]

Would it not be even more wrongheaded to defend the value of it at all cost?

Sure, but that isnt my argument.

[CountDeMoney]

Btw, I hate it when I get branded as an anti-intellectual for this position.  If people are going to pay what they're paying for education--or paying any significant amount at all--it has to be an investment with a real rate of return, which in turn means inculcating market-valuable skills, not poetry or literature or history or other (fun) crap you can indulge in for free.

You're not an anti-intellectual;  you're just a law school grad that was sold a bill of goods about all the solid gold goodies you expected to be showered with by simply graduating from law school.

[crazy canuck]

I liked it better when you were agreeing with Jake and by extension me.

If college is just culture school, what's really the point?

Btw, I hate it when I get branded as an anti-intellectual for this position.  If people are going to pay what they're paying for education--or paying any significant amount at all--it has to be an investment with a real rate of return, which in turn means inculcating market-valuable skills, not poetry or literature or history or other (fun) crap you can indulge in for free.

But you are being anti-intellectual

University is far more than culture school.  It is learning to think school; expanding horizons school; opening up opportunities and fields of study to which high school students have no access.  That is what makes it valuable.  Its not, has never been, and should never be simply a job training school.